Author Topic: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE  (Read 86204 times)

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Offline docelmo

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #180 on: Aug 08, 2015 at 10:51 AM »



========================================
 


We can accept that #1 is true on earth.  We can even accept that it's true within our solar system.  Let's be generous and say it's true within our entire galaxy.

But to say that it's true within the entire universe, that's stretching it.  There's no way to observe and verify that on a planet outside the Milky Way galaxy, things can only exist with a cause.

In #2 & 3, you're applying it to the entire universe and beyond --- even before the universe existed.  There's no way to observe and verify that the universe did not exist spontaneoulsy without a cause, so you're just speculating.  How do we know that the rules inside the existing universe apply to time and space that existed even before the Big Bang? 

Therefore, #3 is without proper basis.

But even if we agree that the beginning of the universe had a cause, the problem will be identifying what that cause might be.

The end result --- yes, there was a cause, but we presently don't know what the cause was.  We might know someday, but not yet.


Why restrict it to 2 alternatives --- (a) first cause and (b) infinite regress of causes?
 
Why not allow a third alternative --- "No cause" ---  meaning that the universe came about by spontaneous generation? 


Yeah, I agree that there is no way to know or verify if the same laws would apply in other areas of the universe or even at the start of the universe. However there is also no way to know that they wouldn’t apply as well. So for the sake of argument I would assume (for a moment) that the universe will not disobey its laws…..I believe it is safe to assume something started to exists-like man, consciousness, animals, our planet, milky way galaxy and the universe.

This discussion made me look for the other options on the existence of the universe…..I read a very long article on the “uncaused” universe; the math and some concepts were way over my head! But the author did make some arguments on the strong “probability” of an uncaused universe! However, I would say that his conclusion is still suspect because he made mention of several “conditions” that could be present for the big bang to occur uncaused….that to me is a contradiction in itself!

Btw, when you say uncaused universe do mean the universe is eternal or at some point in the distant past it spontaneously existed for no reason?

If the universe is eternal, then this seems contradict the current understanding of cosmology. The BBT has included in its concept a beginning of time and space. Another problem with an eternal universe is the concept of actual infinity….it does not exist in nature! And an infinite past cannot be traversed if the universe is eternal. Also the sun would have used up its energy in the infinite past and in turn we would not be here having this discussion.

If the universe started spontaneously for no reason at some point in the past, therefore it was “still” influenced by the conditions “before” the universe started. So we could say that something already “existed” prior to start of the existence of the universe.

So in which ever model we choose an “uncaused” universe would ask us to assume a lot more than if we choose a caused universe!

Furthermore, if something can really exist out of nothing (spontaneously) or if the universe could be uncaused. Then why is this not observed in nature? Or why doesn’t anything and everything come into being spontaneously? What we do see as we explore our world we see that things just don’t pop into existence uncaused. So we have to ultimately conclude that “things that begin to exist do have causes”……whatever that cause may be…….because we intuitively know that “something cannot come out of nothing”.

My point being, if absolutely nothing existed prior to the Big Bang….no condition, no matter, no energy, laws, no time, no space and No Higher Being- then it seems impossible that anything should begin to exist!

Therefore there is some basis to say the universe when it began to exist had a cause…
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline docelmo

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #181 on: Aug 08, 2015 at 11:22 AM »
  Your bias is showing.

We don't know what the cause is, because it's not possible to confirm and verify exactly what that cause was.  Yet you prefer to presume that the cause was a supernatural being.

Why?  Because you are retrofitting the argument to suit your religious beliefs.


 
=========================================

 
The way I see it, the cosmological argument (cause-and-effect) is still not convincing because it requires huge assumptions if it is applied to the beginning of the universe.

Personally, I think the ID (Intelligent Design) proponents are using the best approach.

They don't know the origins of the universe.  They're just saying that certain features of the known universe are best explained by an intelligent cause.

Who is the Intelligent Designer?  They don't know.  Is it God? They don't know.  Could it be God?  Maybe.

Bias? well there might be “some” degree of bias.

But here’s the thing, if you are to describe the properties of a “cause” you will have to base it on the properties of its “effect”. A prime suspect’s profile or description will be based on the evidences, witnesses or pattern of the crime he was accused of…In medicine, when a patient comes in with fever, cough, body weakness and weight loss. We come up with what we call “Differential Diagnosis” this is a list of diseases which presents with similar signs/symptoms mentioned above. Further examination/testing/evaluation would then lead to the most probable diagnosis. In each of these instance the cause will be defined the effect….

So in the same manner what we are discussing here are the properties of a Cause (if it exists) when we are presented with the following “Effects”: All of Life, Planets, systems, galaxies, laws, universe, time and space. What could be the properties of this cause that could possibly have this effect? At the very least it must be more complicated than its effect. It must not be bounded by time, and transcends the universe with level of power needed to bring the universe into existence.

Ah, my favorite topic(ID), as we have extensively discussed this on another thread. The only probable reason for what Dawkins say presence “apparent design” in nature is actually the presence of an intelligent designer! The presence of Design in nature and Genetics (DNA) are the two other arguments being used for the presence of a Cause, a Higher being….A Designer!

And as you said: Could that be God…..maybe!


Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #182 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 08:21 AM »
I would like apologize to all as I'm out for some time and not able to continue updating this thread. I have been very busy in the ministry but I have completed my research study on this course.

I'm putting this into closure today for my final argument of proving God without the bible. Mankind has been lied by the respected scientific community and has controlled everything, replacing the truth by their so called theories.

WE HAVE BEEN LIED BY U.N, NASA,VATICAN and every TOP LEADERS of the world!!! THEY HAVE HIDDEN GOD FROM THE PEOPLE !!!

What would you do if you found out that the earth is not a GLOBE but a VAULTED DOME? NOT A BALL BUT A FLAT EARTH. This alone proves that there is a God. And the truth can be found in the bible. The true earth map looks like this

and we live in a world like this


The earth is not spinning and there is a firmament above us which nobody has gone thru yet. All the NASA missions, their videos & pictures, proofs etc were hoaxes and fabricated. All composite pictures and computer graphics only.

NASA has recently launched a rocket for Project Orion, whose main goal is to study or pass thru the VAN ALLEN Belt. Here is the clips in youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXG0REiVzE & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51DED8dcNkA (notice their zero gravity looks fake)

Did you get it? Nobody has passed thru the Van Allent belt yet which is only about 3600 miles from Earth. How did apollo mission able to get to the moon? When the astronauts were confronted with this question, the answer is "It is not yet discovered so they don't have the problem."

Need you to see these also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLw9a5t-sUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2psC96sscfQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqNDXbABWCA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2FTZhyuJy8

So if no man nor satellites able to pass thru Van Allen belt? How did they get to the moon and all the planets in the solar system?  It is a major lie, NO BIG BANG, NO EVOLUTION.  THERE IS A GOD!

The Apollo 8 missions 1968 (first manned mission), they discovered a firmament exactly what the bible says so the astronaut qouted it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TEEWxqzx3M

Instead of telling the world, they have hidden all these because this is the ultimate proof for God and the bible as the truth. But instead, US has done many military exercises called "High-altitude nuclear test" whose secret goal is to  destroy the dome. Obviously failed. Same with NASA, their rockets blown even before reaching the sky.

There is so much proof of flat earth, thanks to the technology now available to common people. Try this also https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoiIt_v1D-6z75LmrdIU2aw

So now I challenge all of you here to search and research about these ... and prove me wrong.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #183 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 08:34 AM »
Is this for real?

Offline dpogs

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #184 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 08:51 AM »
north pole and south pole?
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Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #185 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 08:54 AM »
Question lang bro -  if the earth is flat,  the sun rises in the east and sets in the West,  does it mean we have multiple suns?

No, only one sun and one moon. Check the Rob Skiba youtube link to explain how it works. There are many links explaining this esp in the Flat-Earth movement forum. Bible supports this so I beleive

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #186 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 08:58 AM »
north pole and south pole?

The north pole and south pole orientations completely different being north pole in the middle and the south all around us. The thick ice serves as the boundary. note also that after discovering the firmament, nations has made a treaty making Antartica a very restricted zone. Why? because the foundations of the dome is there.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8skhK2tMpjk

Offline jhelenz

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #187 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 09:00 AM »
interesting,btw,with the new technology that NASA is developing the more they discovered that putting man on the moon is not that easy.does anyone here believes that man landed on the moon in 1969?

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #188 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 09:16 AM »
NASA has officialy released this picture of PLUTO.


I think it was made by Disney studio, did u notice the silhouette of Pluto?



Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #189 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 10:02 AM »
For additional learning, compare also the weather & air current, etc using Globe and Flat Earth (equidistant map) model.

Refer to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqKTLzUKqDc and the the website is here http://earth.nullschool.net/

Which one makes sense?
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2015 at 10:04 AM by JT »

Offline dpogs

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #190 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 10:29 AM »
How about picture of the earth from the satellites?
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Offline pTrader

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #191 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 10:55 AM »
from the topic itself "PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE " concluded that GOD exist.

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #192 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:02 AM »
How about picture of the earth from the satellites?

Accdg to NASA, there are about 20,000 satellites in the outer space. But accdg to their recent videos, they admit none of them are beyond the VAN ALLEN radiation belt which include the space station. Therefore these satellites are not beyond the 3,600 miles above earth (so not in outer but still in inner space) making it impossible to take full picture of the earth.

The truth is that all the pictures esp the famouse blue marble are composite rendering only. Here are some clips http://ifers.boards.net/thread/132/proof-nasa-fakes-images-earth.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #193 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:12 AM »
How about those who circumnavigated the world?

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #194 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:26 AM »
How about those who circumnavigated the world?

They did circumnavigate the world but they had the mindset it was a globe. Why? influenced by science. They have to agree with the scientist theory otherwise no funding for their voyage nor accepted by the scientific community and will not be recognized in history. But ancient people believe it is flat that is why they are scared of falling out of earth.

http://wiki.tfes.org/Circumnavigation

You see the bible is right, that the love of money is the root of all evil. All these lies made by the scientist are all about having funding for their projects. Even today, all space programs is about getting a huge amount of gov't budget. That's why the lie has to continue.

« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:30 AM by JT »

Offline majoe

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #195 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:39 AM »
proving God without the bible?
e naka reference pa rin yan sa bible di ba?

ang daming video at pictures ng mga astronaut sa international space station, daming proof na bilog ang mundo. tapos ipipilit pa ring flat ang earth?  :o

Offline barrister

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #196 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:51 AM »
The earth is flat, therefore God exists.  Tindi talaga... :P

Sana nilinaw agad nung umpisa pa lang, para hindi na ako naghintay ng lampas five months since March.


It's already April and we've not yet seen any proof.  The bigger the build-up, the greater the reader's disappointment, if this "proof" turns out to be a dud.

I've heard it many times before.  Somebody claims that he can prove the existence of God.  Listen to the "proof" and it's not convincing at all.


I knew it would turn out to be a dud, I just had no idea it would turn out to be this bizarro.

It's so ludicrous that I thought it was a joke.
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:54 AM by barrister »

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #197 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 11:58 AM »
The earth is flat, therefore God exists.  Tindi talaga... :P

Sana nilinaw agad nung umpisa pa lang, para hindi na ako naghintay ng lampas five months since March.

I knew it would turn out to be a dud, I just had no idea it would turn out to be this bizarro.

It's so ludicrous that I thought it was a joke.

Like I said, I got busy in the ministry.  But have you even checked the scientific evidences before saying all these?


Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #198 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:01 PM »
proving God without the bible?
e naka reference pa rin yan sa bible di ba?

ang daming video at pictures ng mga astronaut sa international space station, daming proof na bilog ang mundo. tapos ipipilit pa ring flat ang earth?  :o

See most of the videos I used are from NASA itself. They have lots of contradictions with their statements like Apollo astronauts saying they see many stars in the sky, while others says it is complete darkness. Soma NASA scientist says earth is oblate spheriod but their picture clearly shows a perfect globe.

Obviously, pictures and videos can be manipulated.

Offline barrister

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #199 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:04 PM »
Like I said, I got busy in the ministry.  But have you even checked the scientific evidences before saying all these?


You weren't too busy to write your initial posts.  Why didn't you say flat earth during that period?

Your evidence is YouTube?

Explain one "proof" and I'll answer it.  Type it out.  Don't just post a YouTube link.
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:41 PM by barrister »

Offline dpogs

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #200 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:24 PM »
Di ba un grupo ni magellan angunang nakapagikot sa mundo di nman sila funded ng science noon.
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #201 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:25 PM »
Saka saan nanggaling ang idea na ang mundo ay flat?
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Offline barrister

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #202 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:40 PM »
Talaga namang flat ang nakikita ng tao, kaya akala noong ancient times, flat nga.

Siguro ang tinatanong mo sir, in modern times na.  Sa panahon ngayon, saan nanggaling ang idea ng flat earth?

Sa mga panatiko sa bibliya na hindi naman marunong umintindi ng bibliya.

Ang interpretation nila, the bible describes a flat earth.  Therefore, the truth is that the earth is flat.  Scientific findings that the earth is round are conspiracy theories intended to discredit the bible.

No matter what you say, no matter what you prove, they will never believe that the earth is round.

That's what religion does to people.
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:40 PM by barrister »

Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #203 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 12:56 PM »
You weren't too busy to write your initial posts.  Why didn't you say flat earth during that period?

Your evidence is YouTube?

Explain one "proof" and I'll answer it.  Type it out.  Don't just post a YouTube link.

Ok, let me share to you how I started looking into this.  You see when I was going to New Zealand which is around 11 hrs flight from Singapore. 5,297 miles journey. So the airplane is travelling (5,297/11 hrs) for around 480 miles/hr which is the average speed allowed for airplanes. Speed is being broadcasted during the flight.

Now my issue is, according to scientist the earth is spinning around 1000 miles per hour. If clockwise it is impossible for the airplane to reach NZ at the speed of 480 miles/hr only.  And if counter clockwise it will only take a few minutes travel. Unless the earth does not move.

Having said that the earth moves around 1000 miles per hour, that is about 17 miles per minute. So if i go up in the sky, stay there then go down after 1 minute? I should be around 17 miles away from my original spot but is that the case? the only possibility is that the earth doesn't move nor spin.

Now please allow me to use a scripture. In  Joshua 10:11-13 "And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth Horon, that the Lord cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword. Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day."

So in order for Joshua to stop daytime (as he needs the sunlight during the battle), he commanded the sun and the moon to stop. Notice, he did not commanded the earth to stop and also the sun is moving. Even if the sun and the moon stop while earth still spinning, there should still be nightime right?

Now if the earth does not spin, there goes the globe theory because that is where scientist based their conclusion.  No globe, no big bang, no evolution just creation as what the bible says.

Why I support flat-earth, while on the airplane I can see flat horizon. Auto-pilot mode will travel in straight direction only which they do for most long distance flight. So if the earth has curvature as globe, we would have reached higher atmosphere. But actually, it maintains the same distance from the ground. There is so much evidence of flaat earth now that the technology (like go pro) is available.

Biblically, one of Jesus temptations was he sent to a very high place and showed to him all the kingdoms of the world. And at Jesus 2nd coming, all will see Him coming down from the sky. Not possible with the globe.



Many legitimate experiments has been made and posted in youtube so I just use their link.

Offline dpogs

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #204 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:11 PM »
Okay. You say earth is flat. Did you prove that there is God?

Pinakita mo lamg sa amim na ang earth is flat.
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:12 PM by dpogs »
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Offline majoe

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #205 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:14 PM »
See most of the videos I used are from NASA itself. They have lots of contradictions with their statements like Apollo astronauts saying they see many stars in the sky, while others says it is complete darkness. Soma NASA scientist says earth is oblate spheriod but their picture clearly shows a perfect globe.

Obviously, pictures and videos can be manipulated.


ikaw na nagsabi, love of money is the root of all evil. di mo ba naisip na yang mga may channel na yan sa you tube ay may intention lang magkapera kaya gumagawa ng kung anu anong conspiracy theories?


Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #206 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:16 PM »
Okay. You say earth is flat. Did you prove that there is God?

Pinakita mo lamg sa amim na ang earth is flat.

So you think a flat earth will just be a coincidence of nature?


Offline JT

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #207 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:19 PM »
ikaw na nagsabi, love of money is the root of all evil. di mo ba naisip na yang mga may channel na yan sa you tube ay may intention lang magkapera kaya gumagawa ng kung anu anong conspiracy theories?

Hmmm, didn't I use NASA video as main evidence that no one has surpassed Van Allen belt and not from those conspiracy theorist? I wouldn't have known this if they did not made this press release.


Offline majoe

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #208 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:21 PM »


Now please allow me to use a scripture. In  Joshua 10:11-13 "And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth Horon, that the Lord cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword. Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day."

So in order for Joshua to stop daytime (as he needs the sunlight during the battle), he commanded the sun and the moon to stop. Notice, he did not commanded the earth to stop and also the sun is moving. Even if the sun and the moon stop while earth still spinning, there should still be nightime right?



it could be a case of  "polar wander".



Offline bumblebee

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #209 on: Sep 02, 2015 at 01:25 PM »
The problem with suspending yourself in air is that you are still affected by gravity and air resistance. You still move with Earth. Same goes with flying. You don't get to fly "higher".

The curvature of the horizon is easily seen in this photograph, taken from a space shuttle at an altitude of 226 km in 2008.