Author Topic: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE (Read 86309 times)

JT · « **Reply #300 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:10 AM »

Quote from: lithium_deuteride on Sep 03, 2015 at 01:09 PM

I bet you a hundred bucks that if you can't convince people that there is a Creator using the human body as an example, you won't convince them one bit by telling them that the earth doesn't spin and that it's in fact flat.

In pesos ba ito o in USD? Yes, you got a point. And we should always use the gospel and let the Holy Spirit convict the person. However, majority will reject as they require proof. They need to be challenged.

This flat-earth challenge was not meant for those who already believe in the bible. Atheist here in NZ (even around the world) is growing in numbers. Since atheist and some agnostics prefers scientific evidences, we need something to challenge them, to research hoping to see the intricate designs of everything which could not just be a result of evolution but definitely creation.

Have you tried sharing the gospel to an atheist? How did it end up? What are the natural response?

tony · « **Reply #301 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:14 AM »

^naku lagi namang ganyan, in 1988 my born again friend showed me an article about 88 reasons why the world will end in 1988, wala namang nangyari, another false prophet unmasked....
and then there was this AKO cult that went to tagaytay to avoid impending doom,
they all went home empty handed and shamed.....

a picture of the earth from space should erase all doubts about the earth being round not flat...
writers of the bible at the time had no facility for seeing the earth from outer space....
their writings are based on what they witnessed at the time, they could not possibly know everything...,

my unsolicited advice, do not take the bible literally...
lots of lessons can be learned from the bible that enriches one's life......

our national hero Jose Rizal read the bible from cover to cover...
yet he wrote two novels attacking the wrongdoings of the RC clergy and paid with his dear life for it...

even the devil himself can memorise and recite the scriptures....
900 people dead/murdered in Guyana was a prefect example....

dpogs · « **Reply #302 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:16 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:10 AM

In pesos ba ito o in USD? Yes, you got a point. And we should always use the gospel and let the Holy Spirit convict the person. However, majority will reject as they require proof. They need to be challenged.

This flat-earth challenge was not meant for those who already believe in the bible. Atheist here in NZ (even around the world) is growing in numbers. Since atheist and some agnostics prefers scientific evidences, we need something to challenge them, to research hoping to see the intricate designs of everything which could not just be a result of evolution but definitely creation.

Have you tried sharing the gospel to an atheist? How did it end up? What are the natural response?

and your belief Sir is : earth is flat or sphere shape? whatever you believe, is it supported by the Bible or not?

JT · « **Reply #303 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:26 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:16 AM

and your belief Sir is : earth is flat or sphere shape? whatever you believe, is it supported by the Bible or not?

Honestly, for me it doesn't matter anymore whether the earth is flat or globe. What matters is how to reach out unbelievers.

Bible did not say whether earth is a globe or flat, but possibly a circle. Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the CIRCLE of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Other verses does not directly claims it's flatness nor being a ball.

dpogs · « **Reply #304 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:30 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:26 AM

Honestly, for me it doesn't matter anymore whether the earth is flat or globe. What matters is how to reach out unbelievers.

Bible did not say whether earth is a globe or flat, but possibly a circle. Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the CIRCLE of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Other verses does not directly claims it's flatness nor being a ball.

okay.

Now, is it possible to prove the existence of God without the Bible?

JT · « **Reply #305 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:35 AM »

Quote from: tony on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:14 AM

^naku lagi namang ganyan, in 1988 my born again friend showed me an article about 88 reasons why the world will end in 1988, wala namang nangyari, another false prophet unmasked....
and then there was this AKO cult that went to tagaytay to avoid impending doom,
they all went home empty handed and shamed.....

a picture of the earth from space should erase all doubts about the earth being round not flat...
writers of the bible at the time had no facility for seeing the earth from outer space....
their writings are based on what they witnessed at the time, they could not possibly know everything...,

my unsolicited advice, do not take the bible literally...
lots of lessons can be learned from the bible that enriches one's life......

our national hero Jose Rizal read the bible from cover to cover...
yet he wrote two novels attacking the wrongdoings of the RC clergy and paid with his dear life for it...

even the devil himself can memorise and recite the scriptures....
900 people dead/murdered in Guyana was a prefect example....

That's very true kasi alam din naman nung demonyo yung prophecy so it will create deceptions, diversions or even fake it for people to doubt and loose faith the bible.

Like I remember recently, in many places they heard a trumpet so the religious people says Jesus is coming now as the bible says after the trumpet. But obviously, Jesus has not come yet. These events made other believer's loose their belief and unbeliever's to mock their belief.

Remember this, there are FAKE kasi may GENUINE.

bumblebee · « **Reply #306 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:39 AM »

^Kung alam ng demonyo prophecy, bakit pa nya itutuloy yung laban nya?

JT · « **Reply #307 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:43 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:30 AM

okay.

Now, is it possible to prove the existence of God without the Bible?

Like I said, Flat-earth (even if it can be proven as the truth) will not be accepted anymore as the whole world is already under control by the elite.

But I believe, God made a way. He give wisdom to His people on how to provide proof He exist without using the bible. Because that's what verse 20 of Romans 1:18-21 says. There is proof around us, we need to direct them to it.

Romans 1:18-21 God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

JT · « **Reply #308 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:46 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:39 AM

^Kung alam ng demonyo prophecy, bakit pa nya itutuloy yung laban nya?

You see, he knows he is already defeated. His goal is to bring more souls with him to the lake of fire. Why? because God loves every soul and it grieves God for every soul going to hell.

dpogs · « **Reply #309 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 06:55 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:43 AM

Like I said, Flat-earth (even if it can be proven as the truth) will not be accepted anymore as the whole world is already under control by the elite.

But I believe, God made a way. He give wisdom to His people on how to provide proof He exist without using the bible. Because that's what verse 20 of Romans 1:18-21 says. There is proof around us, we need to direct them to it.

Romans 1:18-21 God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

you use the Bible again as reference...

so you just admit that you cant prove the existence of God without the Bible?

JT · « **Reply #310 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:01 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:55 AM

you use the Bible again as reference...

so you just admit that you cant prove the existence of God without the Bible?

Obviously you are not that smart as you still don't get it. Although I quoted the bible, please check the principle behind of what my point is.

In essence, bible says God has put evidences around us for His existence. So my point is find those evidences and direct unbeliever's (particularly atheist) to those.

Clondalkin · « **Reply #311 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:05 AM »

Sino inabot nung 70s na in order to fly to Saudi Arabia from Japan, plane goes to Alaska then up around the North Pole and down to Europe then finally down to Saudi?

Then Russia's airspace became open and commercial thus all flights to Europe were through Siberia na. No need to go up the North Pole and down.

Kung hindi sphere ang mundo, what's the point of flights to the US or Europe going up the North instead na straight along the equator?

dpogs · « **Reply #312 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:10 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 07:01 AM

Obviously you are not that smart as you still don't get it. Although I quoted the bible, please check the principle behind of what my point is.

In essence, bible says God has put evidences around us for His existence. So my point is find those evidences and direct unbeliever's (particularly atheist) to those.

again, and how can you direct these evidences to unbelievers/atheist without using the Bible? first of all they dont believe in creation and in God.

also, the idea of creation came from the Bible.

JT · « **Reply #313 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:17 AM »

Quote from: Clondalkin on Sep 04, 2015 at 07:05 AM

Sino inabot nung 70s na in order to fly to Saudi Arabia from Japan, plane goes to Alaska then up around the North Pole and down to Europe then finally down to Saudi?

Then Russia's airspace became open and commercial thus all flights to Europe were through Siberia na. No need to go up the North Pole and down.

Kung hindi sphere ang mundo, what's the point of flights to the US or Europe going up the North instead na straight along the equator?

Actually the flight makes sense in the flat earth map. I just cant find now the right link that explains it.

JT · « **Reply #314 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:19 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Sep 04, 2015 at 07:10 AM

again, and how can you direct these evidences to unbelievers/atheist without using the Bible? first of all they dont believe in creation and in God.

first of all: the idea of creation came from the Bible.

I think it is better to channel all your questions sa amo mo as I won't be entertaining them anymore kasi you really don't get it ... slow. I know Barrister can explain it to you and will filter it out all non sense.

I'd rather be talking to Barrister on your boogle. He is rude sometimes, but he always have a point and a direction.

dpogs · « **Reply #315 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:26 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 07:19 AM

I think it is better to channel all your questions sa amo mo as I won't be entertaining them anymore kasi you really don't get it ... slow. I know Barrister can explain it to you and will filter it out all non sense.

I'd rather be talking to Barrister on your boogle. He is rude sometimes, but he always have a point and a direction.

the title of your thread is proving God without the Bible... not proving what is the shape of the earth.

and here you are proving the earth is flat. eh ano ngayon kung flat ang earth or sphere ang earth.

does it prove that there is God? does the shape of earth matters in proving that there is God?

dpogs · « **Reply #316 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 07:42 AM »

can you lead/bring unbelievers to Jesus Christ by telling them the earth is flat?
can you lead/bring unbelievers to Jesus Christ without the Bible?

instead na mag focus to the most important thing in this universe - LIFE, you focus on showing us the shape of the earth - "the earth is flat, therefore God exist"

bumblebee · « **Reply #317 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:10 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:46 AM

You see, he knows he is already defeated. His goal is to bring more souls with him to the lake of fire. Why? because God loves every soul and it grieves God for every soul going to hell.

What would he gain by resisting? If he knows he's defeated, what's the battle at armageddon for?

bumblebee · « **Reply #318 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:12 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Sep 04, 2015 at 07:42 AM

instead na mag focus to the most important thing in this universe - LIFE, you focus on showing us the shape of the earth - "the earth is flat, therefore God exist"

What's the difference? Porke me life, me God na?

Nelson de Leon · « **Reply #319 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:18 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:12 AM

What's the difference? Porke me life, me God na?

Pang evolution vs creation thread na yan. Hehe! Then intelligent design ang bagsak.

dpogs · « **Reply #320 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:37 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:12 AM

What's the difference? Porke me life, me God na?

see... that is what i mean, without the Bible anything that exists in this universe even life itself is not enough as a proof to the unbeliever... unless they believe it by faith.

Life, complexity of human body and even the shape of the earth are all part of God's creation which is isa sa naging topic sa simula pa lang ng thread na ito... at isa sa pinakamalapit na paliwanag is there is ID/designer, and still not enough to show that it is the God of the Bible.

and then ang ipipresent lang ng thread starter na proof ay ang shape of the earth

why not the whole creation itself... the shape of the earth or LIFE doesnt matter as long as we agreed that there is ID/master designer/creator. now to say that these ID/master designer/creator is God, ibang usapan naman yan.

Quote from: Nelson de Leon on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:18 AM

Pang evolution vs creation thread na yan. Hehe! Then intelligent design ang bagsak.

and shape of the earth is i believe part din ng creation... then ang bagsak nga is intelligent design...

JT · « **Reply #321 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:41 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:10 AM

What would he gain by resisting? If he knows he's defeated, what's the battle at armageddon for?

Actually, you gave an interesting point that I never thought before. Kasi it is possible that the devil himself is also deceived that he can win.

2 Timothy 3:13 says 13 "But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."

bumblebee · « **Reply #322 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:55 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:41 AM

Actually, you gave an interesting point that I never thought before. Kasi it is possible that the devil himself is also deceived that he can win.

2 Timothy 3:13 says 13 "But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."

Win as in deceive the world or battle God literally?

JT · « **Reply #323 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 08:59 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:55 AM

Win as in deceive the world or battle God literally?

Yung Devil ang main deceiver eh so He might have deceived himself also being confident that he had a chance of winning against God even though it is written na sa bible ang kanyang defeat. Sabi nga nung verse DECEIVING and being DECEIVED".

bumblebee · « **Reply #324 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 09:13 AM »

Well somebody talk to the guy. Clueless e

He came from God, so he should know he stand no chance.

dpogs · « **Reply #325 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 09:47 AM »

What we need is a proof that God exist, not another theory na kailangan pang pag-usapan kung totoo o hindi.

Now can we prove GOD without the Bible?

Katulad nga ng #7 post ko dito unang una palang:

Quote from: dpogs on Mar 25, 2015 at 09:50 AM

the whole universe (creation) speaks that there is God Almighty Creator

which is of course nakuha ko ang idea sa Bible and i think this is not a valid argument...

at saka kung iqoute natin ang sinabi ni Bumblebee as reference:

Quote from: bumblebee on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:12 AM

What's the difference? Porke me life, me God na?

what is the difference? porket my creation, me God na?
what is the difference? porket flat ang earth, may God na?
what is the difference?? porket sphere ang earth, may God na?

Also, to show that evolution is false doesnt mean that God exist (or creation is true).
and to qoute sir JT:

Quote from: JT on Sep 02, 2015 at 08:21 AM

It is a major lie, NO BIG BANG, NO EVOLUTION. THERE IS A GOD!

porket NO EVOLUTION, there is God na?
porket NO BIGBANG, there is God na?

*updated

bumblebee · « **Reply #326 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 09:49 AM »

Ano raw?

barrister · « **Reply #327 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 10:11 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 08:59 AM

Yung Devil ang main deceiver eh so He might have deceived himself also being confident that he had a chance of winning against God even though it is written na sa bible ang kanyang defeat.

That's not right. Satan knows he will be defeated.

Satan's defeat is written in the bible. Therefore, we know that he will be defeated.

But does Satan believe the prophecy is true? Yes, Satan believes the prophecy of his defeat is true ---

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short. (Rev. 12:12)

It is not the same as an ordinary person who does not wage war because he knows he will be defeated. In that case, he doesn't wage war and goes home in peace.

In Satan's case, he will suffer the death penalty even if he doesn't wage war. He won't be allowed to go home to heaven and live in peace; he will still be burned even if he doesn't wage war.

Pareho rin pala, e di wage war na lang.

What does he have to gain? At least yung mga pupunta ng langit in the end, nahirapan muna bago pumunta ng langit. And at least, marami rin ang mga tangang maniniwala sa kanya na madadamay sa impiyerno.

lithium_deuteride · « **Reply #328 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 10:13 AM »

Quote from: JT on Sep 04, 2015 at 06:10 AM

In pesos ba ito o in USD? Yes, you got a point. And we should always use the gospel and let the Holy Spirit convict the person. However, majority will reject as they require proof. They need to be challenged.

This flat-earth challenge was not meant for those who already believe in the bible. Atheist here in NZ (even around the world) is growing in numbers. Since atheist and some agnostics prefers scientific evidences, we need something to challenge them, to research hoping to see the intricate designs of everything which could not just be a result of evolution but definitely creation.

Have you tried sharing the gospel to an atheist? How did it end up? What are the natural response?

I get that to pique somebody's curiosity, you pose him a mind challenge. There may be certain people to whom your flat earth challenge would be a curiosity. But for people who need scientific evidence, like atheists as you say, I'm afraid you will only pique their curiosity at you, not your challenge. Not everyday that they will meet someone who argues that the earth is flat. I suggest a different challenge to avoid ridicule.

JT · « **Reply #329 on:** Sep 04, 2015 at 11:16 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Sep 04, 2015 at 10:11 AM

That's not right. Satan knows he will be defeated.

Satan's defeat is written in the bible. Therefore, we know that he will be defeated.

But does Satan believe the prophecy is true? Yes, Satan believes the prophecy of his defeat is true ---

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short. (Rev. 12:12)

It is not the same as an ordinary person who does not wage war because he knows he will be defeated. In that case, he doesn't wage war and goes home in peace.

In Satan's case, he will suffer the death penalty even if he doesn't wage war. He won't be allowed to go home to heaven and live in peace; he will still be burned even if he doesn't wage war.

Pareho rin pala, e di wage war na lang.

What does he have to gain? At least yung mga pupunta ng langit in the end, nahirapan muna bago pumunta ng langit. And at least, marami rin ang mga tangang maniniwala sa kanya na madadamay sa impiyerno.

I could'nt agree more. Totally support this.

But I was just trying to decipher what's on Satan mind regarding the war as per the question. As a deciever, would he tell his minions about the defeat? He must have lied convincingly they would win where He himself got deceived and become blinded by it.

Possibly similar to Satan getting Jesus to be crucified thinking it will be their victory but ended as their defeat.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 says "7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."