Topic: A dumb soundstage question

[cyberdraven]

Guys, call me dumb but I normally experience this phenomenon for the longest period of time but im afraid to ask.  Is it just psychoacoustics or just an imagination?

The question is why does the soundstage and imaging (particularly the center image) appears to be a foot higher than the speaker cabinet when you listen to the sweet spot?  I usually encounter this phenomenon and in most auditioning sessions, Im accustomed to find for that location to listen.  When you are in the sweet spot, the CENTER is WAY ABOVE (usually a foot) higher than the speakers.  If you sway your head or move away from the spot, you will find that the image location is STILL the same BUT it will now be ALIGNED with the speaker height.

Also, when your in the sweet spot, you will notice horizontal layering aside from the normal vertical (depth).  When you play a drum solo (like the Brombo tracks), you will find that the kick drum is positioned lower than the cymbals.  In vocal tracks, you will find the vocals to be positioned higher than the guitars.  This happens on the sweet spot.

Bat ganun?  Is there such a phenomenom?  Or sira lang talaga pandinig ko.

Thanks
Paeng

[luis]

Guys, call me dumb but I normally experience this phenomenon for the longest period of time but im afraid to ask.  Is it just psychoacoustics or just an imagination?

The question is why does the soundstage and imaging (particularly the center image) appears to be 1 feet higher than the speaker cabinet when you listen to the sweet spot?  I usually encounter this phenomenon and in most auditioning sessions, Im accustomed to find for that location to listen.  When you are in the sweet spot, the CENTER is WAY ABOVE (usually 1 feet) higher than the speakers.  If you sway your head or move away from the spot, you will find that the image location is STILL the same BUT it will now be ALIGNED with the speaker height.

Also, when your in the sweet spot, you will notice horizontal layering aside from the normal vertical (depth).  When you play a drum solo (like the Brombo tracks), you will find that the kick drum is positioned lower than the cymbals.  In vocal tracks, you will find the vocals to be positioned higher than the guitars.  This happens on the sweet spot.

Bat ganun?  Is there such a phenomenom?  Or sira lang talaga pandinig ko.

Thanks
Paeng

bro, you have a very keen ear that you notices those details.  I am not sure though if it's good or bad. 

for me ang measure ko lang are 1) non stressful highs 2) round fat mids 3) punchy and dynamic lows and 4) allows me to feel the emotion of the music.

of course to each his own.   

[RXV]

Bro Paeng, baka naman gamit mo yung plastic baby chair diyan sa bahay niyo, e mas mataas talaga ang height ng singer (vocals) hahaha.

But seriously, yes ganun din ako. Kapag sa center (sweetspot) mas mataas ng konti ang singer. My hunch is because of the top layer center table/rack (in between the two speakers) is reflecting some of the sound coming from the stereo speakers, kaya may illusion of "heightened" centerstage. And also because the mind is being "fooled" of the centerstage effect.

Also, sa akin din mas mababa ang left and right imaging such as instrumentals (drums, cymbals, etc). My hunch is because my speaker drivers are positioned below ear level. Kapag sa center ok, pero kapag sa left and right, nalolocalize na ang sound. I already heightened my speakers with spikes and deisgned it to have a little tilt (angle) upward, pero hindi pa rin perfect. Feeling ko dapat as much as possible, ear hieght talaga nakaposition ang drivers.

Just my hunch ha, I'll leave it to the experts to chime in.

[Gino]

Luis, the qualities you described are what some people call warm.

Cyberdriven, you are hearing phantom images created by the room and speaker and listener placement.

Sound does not come only from the speakers in the average room. It also comes from reflections. It is the same reason why some systems extend image width beyond the speakers. It can also move individual images away from where they should be, vertically, horizontally, and depth. Image location can be frequency dependent.

For me, the stage must be presented evenly at correct width ,height, and depth. The stage images must be accurate in placement horizontally, vertically, and depth. That is a daunting task. You need a room large enough to accommodate ideal speaker & chair placement and must accept meaningful sound treatment. Bass treatment takes up a lot of space.

[pchin]

Hi Paeng, in my case, it's the opposite effect. I feel that the phantom center is lower than my speakers FS.

I'll wait for your feedback since you'll be visiting my place soon hehe.

[deist]

To produce a wide & deep soundstage it should be a combination of proper room acoustics, very good speakers & well mastered tracks.

Speaking of which, I was over at JoeyGS' place the other night and we were listening to DSD files of some symphonies, you know how in an orchestra the musicians are spread all over the stage, that is exactly how it was presented thru his DIY Markaudio speakers, wide & deep, it was amazing that some of the instruments can be heard as far as 4 feet behind the speakers 

[Nelson de Leon]

To produce a wide & deep soundstage it should be a combination of proper room acoustics, very good speakers & well mastered tracks.

Speaking of which, I was over at JoeyGS' place the other night and we were listening to DSD files of some symphonies, you know how in an orchestra the musicians are spread all over the stage, that is exactly how it was presented thru his DIY Markaudio speakers, wide & deep, it was amazing that some of the instruments can be heard as far as 4 feet behind the speakers 

Correct. It's a combination of gears and materials. Even if you have quality equipment kung poorly recorded naman, you won't get the same effect. Sometimes depende on how the mic is positioned, panning and mixing. Ang maganda daw pang test is yun what they call true stereo wherein 2 mics lang ang gamit for recording.

[cyberdraven]

@ sir luis.  hindi naman sir.  actually im more into an "engaging system" rather than "technically correct" sound system.  Like you, I put more weight on listening pleasure rather than technical evaluation.

@ sir rxv.  hehe.  those small plastic seats are for my kids but I use them when I listen to my system para ear level ung speakers.

@ sir pchin.  see you soon sir!

@ sir gino, sir diest, sir nelson.  We value the effects of recordings, room treatment, speaker placement and speaker position.  Hats off, this greatly affects soundstage, imaging and tonality.  Treating the room and good speaker placement/aiming creates that elusive soundstage, good instrument placement, perfect stereo separation and deep soundstage.

A lot of discussions are done with respect to recordings, treatments, speaker placement, etc.  However, how do you find the sweet spot?  Do we do the equilateral triangle method, the Fibonacci method, the recommendation of the manufacturer, etc?

If the phenomena I have been hearing is not just an illusion and such phenomenon only happens when your are in the sweet spot, then we could have a simple way of locating the best seating position.

Thanks

Paeng

[Gino]

The orchestra is my acid test for a system. It has an incredible dynamic range. The orchestra has lots of micro details. The chamber space is very difficult to hear unless the dedicated room is dead silent. Very black. The textures of string and wood must be evident and ethereal. Sections must be large and powerful yet delicate. The sections must be correctly spaced in 3 dimensions. Pagnatae ka sa upuan mo, the system nailed it.

[cyberdraven]

The orchestra is my acid test for a system. It has an incredible dynamic range. The orchestra has lots of micro details. The chamber space is very difficult to hear unless the dedicated room is dead silent. Very black. The textures of string and wood must be evident and etherial. Sections must be large and powerful yet delicate. The sections must be correctly spaced in 3 dimensions. Pagnatae ka sa upuan mo, the system nailed it.

Maganda nga orchestra sir but you need that headroom to give the dynamics you wanted.  For me, yan pinakamahirap.  Im trying to convince myself and sway away from dynamic recordings for now as I know my system will not handle.  The amps distorts with highly dynamic recordings.  Also aside from headroom, the orchestra recording is a very good test on soundstage and imaging.  Madaling makita kung makalat na tumunog ang system or nawawala na sa spacing mga instrumento.

[RXV]

The orchestra is my acid test for a system. It has an incredible dynamic range. The orchestra has lots of micro details. The chamber space is very difficult to hear unless the dedicated room is dead silent. Very black. The textures of string and wood must be evident and ethereal. Sections must be large and powerful yet delicate. The sections must be correctly spaced in 3 dimensions. Pagnatae ka sa upuan mo, the system nailed it.

Gino nawata ako dun sa last sentence mo haha.

If only I have the space to do the 3-part/space method

[meat_eater]

hmmm.... you mean to say na sa higher ang sound (literally) sa center kesa sa left and sa right when seated sa sweet spot? Or did I wrongly understood the question?

Well, at least for me - should not be the case. I think some reflections are causing this, agree ako sa earlier response na a rack could be messing with the acoustics.

Could you post a photo of your stereo system, from the listeners perspective, front and back sana.


But then again, it could also be just psychoacoustics.   

Cheers

[fattyacid]

You can never experience what the other guy is experiencing while describing the 3D property of the audio. We have different ear curvatures. Your height will not be my height.

[J-M]

OT

Ang maganda daw pang test is yun what they call true stereo wherein 2 mics lang ang gamit for recording.

Also known as a binaural recording right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itLxXeyM2aM

[RXV]

hmmm.... you mean to say na sa higher ang sound (literally) sa center kesa sa left and sa right when seated sa sweet spot? Or did I wrongly understood the question?

Well, at least for me - should not be the case. I think some reflections are causing this, agree ako sa earlier response na a rack could be messing with the acoustics.

Could you post a photo of your stereo system, from the listeners perspective, front and back sana.


But then again, it could also be just psychoacoustics.   

Cheers

May I ask a question? Some of the dedicated music set-ups (also on Nov HiFi shows) have their gears almost on floor level lang (on top of a small rack on the floor). Does this have to do with acoustics, or merely aesthetics lang?

[cyberdraven]

hmmm.... you mean to say na sa higher ang sound (literally) sa center kesa sa left and sa right when seated sa sweet spot? Or did I wrongly understood the question?

Well, at least for me - should not be the case. I think some reflections are causing this, agree ako sa earlier response na a rack could be messing with the acoustics.

Could you post a photo of your stereo system, from the listeners perspective, front and back sana.


But then again, it could also be just psychoacoustics.   

Cheers

When you are in the sweet spot, all the instruments are higher than the speakers (except bass passages).  You could literally hear cielos or cymbals that sounded higher than the speakers, when it images far left or far right.  However, the most evident is the phantom center.  You literally see it higher by about a foot. than the speakers.

Sir meat eater, my system is very simple but simple as it gets, I still experience the same.  Moreso on high-end highly treated rooms.  Sir luis has a very good system which I heard last Feb (I think).  When you lean forward or sit sa patungan ng paa, you could hear the phantom center moving up.

When I was still young and handsome, I used to listen to LIS using my reference CDs.  After a couple of minutes, I rush to my car to tune.  hehehe!  Even those days, it is already evident that the sound images above the speakers.

Now that im already old and slightly handsome, I still get to encounter that phenomena.

I think its psychoacoustics or im just a psycho.  hehehe

[cyberdraven]

May I ask a question? Some of the dedicated music set-ups (also on Nov HiFi shows) have their gears almost on floor level lang (on top of a small rack on the floor). Does this have to do with acoustics, or merely aesthetics lang?

I think aesthetics lang.  When I was shopping for a bookshelf, I auditioned a display unit in a major store.  The speakers were the famous PSB Image B6.  Just hitting the 1 minute mark of the song, umayaw nako.  I said boomy masyado at one-note bass.  I failed to account where it was located.  Literally halos naka dikit sa cabinet.  Last month, I hang-out in Listening Room in Megamall while my wife is busy shopping.  I requested to listen to the same speakers using the same amp - Rotel.  It was set-up properly and the sound was miles apart from my previous experience.  Naghinayang ako.  Dapat bumili ako nun!  hehehe!  Laki kong tanga!  hahaha!

[meat_eater]

When you are in the sweet spot, all the instruments are higher than the speakers (except bass passages).  You could literally hear cielos or cymbals that sounded higher than the speakers, when it images far left or far right.  However, the most evident is the phantom center.  You literally see it higher by about a foot. than the speakers.

Sir meat eater, my system is very simple but simple as it gets, I still experience the same.  Moreso on high-end highly treated rooms.  Sir luis has a very good system which I heard last Feb (I think).  When you lean forward or sit sa patungan ng paa, you could hear the phantom center moving up.

When I was still young and handsome, I used to listen to LIS using my reference CDs.  After a couple of minutes, I rush to my car to tune.  hehehe!  Even those days, it is already evident that the sound images above the speakers.

Now that im already old and slightly handsome, I still get to encounter that phenomena.

I think its psychoacoustics or im just a psycho.  hehehe

I see, thanks for elaborating.

If you mean the sound goes beyond the speakers - taller and wider, well I experience those as well. I always thought that should be the case, but I could be wrong, however I actually like that sound so I'm keeping it that way - probably till I'm old and still just as handsome . hahahahaha

Cheers

[cyberdraven]

I see, thanks for elaborating.

If you mean the sound goes beyond the speakers - taller and wider, well I experience those as well. I always thought that should be the case, but I could be wrong, however I actually like that sound so I'm keeping it that way - probably till I'm old and still just as handsome . hahahahaha

Cheers

hahaha!  So fellow handsome guy, what makes the sound appears to be taller?  Is it because you listen to the sweet spot?

Wide soundstage is highly dependent on speaker position and environment while depth is a function of ambiance and environment.  How about the sound to appear taller or higher than the speakers?

[majoe]

hahaha!  So fellow handsome guy, what makes the sound appears to be taller?  Is it because you listen to the sweet spot?

Wide soundstage is highly dependent on speaker position and environment while depth is a function of ambiance and environment.  How about the sound to appear taller or higher than the speakers?

ehem... lol. j/k 

maybe because mids and highs tend to float while lows tend to crawl just like the FM and AM signal propagation?
hehe, i really don't know. it's just my opinion 

[Gino]

Sound doesn't have mass. It cannot float or sink. It is vibration that travels through the air and other matter in an audible wave form.

[luis]

@ sir luis.  hindi naman sir.  actually im more into an "engaging system" rather than "technically correct" sound system.  Like you, I put more weight on listening pleasure rather than technical evaluation.
Paeng

actually my comment on keen ear is more of a commendation he he he...   

[cyberdraven]

actually my comment on keen ear is more of a commendation he he he...   

no problem sir luis.  pag nagawi ka dito sa east, kindly pay me a visit for a chat and beer.  hehe

[meat_eater]

hahaha!  So fellow handsome guy, what makes the sound appears to be taller?  Is it because you listen to the sweet spot?

Wide soundstage is highly dependent on speaker position and environment while depth is a function of ambiance and environment.  How about the sound to appear taller or higher than the speakers?

Honestly, I dont know. I just happen to like that effect, which is one of the first things I notice when tube rolling, because both height and width are actually affected by some tubes.

I think were being too analyical on this na. Sit back, relax, sip on your favorite Beer, whisky or coffee and enjoy the music. hehehehe

This "psycho acoustic" thing is making me PSYCHO on acoustics. hahahahaha

Cheers

[shrek7]

Same experience here, my very simple set up always project the singer higher than the speakers, which gives an illussion that the singer is standing in front of you, bass drums sound are properly located below the drivers, I believe that the recording engineers had mixed the recording that way to make it more believable, but diff. Recording engineers have different techniques in mixing their recordings. To each his own. Thats why I always try to play chesky's recording to verify if what I am hearing is correct. Good systems in a good room can even give you a soundstage wider and deeper than the room it is in. It can even give you an imaging that is behind the listening area/sweet spot. Sometimes it is creepy, specially when im listening during the wee hours...

[cyberdraven]

Honestly, I dont know. I just happen to like that effect, which is one of the first things I notice when tube rolling, because both height and width are actually affected by some tubes.

I think were being too analyical on this na. Sit back, relax, sip on your favorite Beer, whisky or coffee and enjoy the music. hehehehe

This "psycho acoustic" thing is making me PSYCHO on acoustics. hahahahaha

Cheers

hahaha!  nothing technical naman.  actually matagal ko na yan napapansin but im afraid to ask if what im hearing is normal.  lalo na sa car.  I onced auditioned an EMMA Asia Finals car, ung center image literally nasa rear view mirror na.  ganda tumunog.  hehehe

now im confident hindi pa pala sira pandinig ko.  hehehe!

[cyberdraven]

Same experience here, my very simple set up always project the singer higher than the speakers, which gives an illussion that the singer is standing in front of you, bass drums sound are properly located below the drivers, I believe that the recording engineers had mixed the recording that way to make it more believable, but diff. Recording engineers have different techniques in mixing their recordings. To each his own. Thats why I always try to play chesky's recording to verify if what I am hearing is correct. Good systems in a good room can even give you a soundstage wider and deeper than the room it is in. It can even give you an imaging that is behind the listening area/sweet spot. Sometimes it is creepy, specially when im listening during the wee hours...

I feel you pards.  Kaso ako baliktad, imbes na matakot, nabubuhay dugo ko ke Marta Gomez on her Cielito Lindo rendition.  hahaha!

[shrek7]

I feel you pards.  Kaso ako baliktad, imbes na matakot, nabubuhay dugo ko ke Marta Gomez on her Cielito Lindo rendition.  hahaha!

Hehehe!!! Maganda nga yan! Nakakabuhay talaga ng dugo, yun kasing mga pinapakinggan ko kay roger waters eh minsan eerie, hahaha!

I believe that the sound should make the speaker disappear, If the soundstage is properly placed higher/lower, deeper or wider than the speakers, then your system is really good. My system is good, but there are lots more to improve. Acoustic treatment is my major concern.

[deist]

This is correct, I think the term they are looking for when they mentioned a certain group of frequencies or a specific musical instrument gives an image of "floating" or "sinking" is - DISPERSION.

Higher frequencies travel a narrower path while low frequencies disperses wider, that is the reason why there is a "sweet spot" - the axis where the high & mid frequencies meet your ears. Walk around the room while listening & you will notice that the high & mids won't be as much defined.

Another factor that affects dispersion is the driver size, I've been saying this here; smaller drivers disperses the sound wider while bigger drivers are subject to "beaming". Same reason why for the longest time, the tweeter's optimum size is still at 1" because we need the highs to disperse wide.

Sound doesn't have mass. It cannot float or sink. It is vibration that travels through the air and other matter in an audible wave form.

[Nelson de Leon]

The reason why the amps are placed on the floor is because the spaces between the rack and the rear wall may cause reflections or may create comb filtering.