Author Topic: Official Cayin Thread  (Read 227992 times)

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Offline alexg

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #570 on: Feb 13, 2009 at 11:35 PM »
It is my understanding that if you take out the 5ar4, the amp still works. If this is the case it is not a hybird or "graetz" bridge, it simply means the 5ar4 is for cosmetics.

If Cayin explains the arrangement as bridge, but if you take out the 5ar4 and the system works, then their explanation does not hold water.
I went fishing the other day, and I caught a BIG ONE!

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #571 on: Feb 14, 2009 at 09:10 AM »
It is my understanding that if you take out the 5ar4, the amp still works. If this is the case it is not a hybird or "graetz" bridge, it simply means the 5ar4 is for cosmetics.

If Cayin explains the arrangement as bridge, but if you take out the 5ar4 and the system works, then their explanation does not hold water.

Sir alexg  :) kamusta ka na. Long time no chat.

Please drop by our shop again when you have time or when you pick up any mundorf purchases...  Will show you the schematics and test the amp together over a cup of coffee and we can ring Cayin too so that you can talk to their engineers if during office hours. 

thanks and have a good weekend.

BTW - some of your colleague (or subordinates since they refer to you as sir alex) from nippon visited 2 weeks ago.  I told them to seek your inputs since they are planning to set-up an audio set.  There were 3 of them... sorry totally forgot their names.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2009 at 09:13 AM by AudioAmplified »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #572 on: Feb 16, 2009 at 09:53 AM »
Quote
If this is the case it is not a hybird or "graetz" bridge, it simply means the 5ar4 is for cosmetics.

to me this is not such a big deal, i am more concerned about the 25 watts ouput on a claimed 30 watt or so... ;D
a slap on the hand of those China boys would do for me..... ;D

@ptubeh,

i sugget you try posting your concerns at www.diyaudio.com i am sure your concerns will get more response from users worldwide, perhaps you will get better answers... ;)

another thing, are you sure your unit was not tampered with in any way?
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Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #573 on: Feb 16, 2009 at 06:29 PM »
to me this is not such a big deal, i am more concerned about the 25 watts ouput on a claimed 30 watt or so... ;D
a slap on the hand of those China boys would do for me..... ;D

@ptubeh,

i sugget you try posting your concerns at www.diyaudio.com i am sure your concerns will get more response from users worldwide, perhaps you will get better answers... ;)

another thing, are you sure your unit was not tampered with in any way?

hahaha...  will try to get the unit tested if we can get our hands on a 30W model since we carry only the 55W version now.  And yes will give their head engineer a slap when i see him hahaha.  :P

I am helping patubeh check his version since he pm'ed us his serial number already.  Will hopefully get the reply soon.  I also suggested that he contact cayinusa.com since they are the US distributor and they should be the ones to assist him because we cant even physically check his amp.  He can contact the seller too to get the warranty.  That would help.

Thanks all for your inputs.

Offline captkhz

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #574 on: Feb 24, 2009 at 08:10 AM »
  Hello everyone, I was able to register...at last.  I am the EE who looked at this amplifier in question that started this thread. If anyone has questions, be happy to respond. In general, I have come to the conclusion this design with the "extra" 5AR4, that is...the only 5AR4...is for cosmetics only.  The explanation that the added 5Ar4, when in place-plugged in-on top of the diodes- adds to a subjective improvement in the performance (in blind tests) is beyond belief. Indeed!

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #575 on: Feb 24, 2009 at 10:12 AM »
  Hello everyone, I was able to register...at last.  I am the EE who looked at this amplifier in question that started this thread. If anyone has questions, be happy to respond. In general, I have come to the conclusion this design with the "extra" 5AR4, that is...the only 5AR4...is for cosmetics only.  The explanation that the added 5Ar4, when in place-plugged in-on top of the diodes- adds to a subjective improvement in the performance (in blind tests) is beyond belief. Indeed!

anybody that understands circuits will think this so....they were most likely having shortened 5ar4 tube life issues, that is why the ss diodes.....and a logical thing to do........welcome to pdvd....

i suggested ptubeh to post this issue over at www.diyaudio.com, i am sure a lot of international experts will have something to say... ;D

btw, the frequency response you quoted to ptubeh looks quite good, wonder at what power level that was taken..... 8)
« Last Edit: Feb 24, 2009 at 10:15 AM by TonyT »
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Offline captkhz

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #576 on: Feb 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM »
   TonyT, Exactly right, the Cayin tech said the 5Ar4 was not enough for four KT-88s, so the diodes were added. I only had trouble when he went on to say the 5Ar4 still helps the sound when bybassed (by diodes)......lost me there...         My freq. response tests were at 1 watt into 8 ohm resistive load.  Power response was not as good.
        I still have doubts, as fundamental design planning would rule out using 1 5AR4 for a stereo KT-88 amp. Typical example is the vintage HH Scott LK-150, Class AB1 75w/ch. 4- 6550s, uses two 5Ar4s, however, the Dyna stereo 70 gets away with 1 5AR4 . (35w/ch 4- EL-34.) Dyna Mark III uses 1 5AR4, but is a mono amp---only 2 6550/KT-88-60 w.
       I do not like to be hard nosed about it, but I would not get away with, or even try in the first place, such a power supply design as this Cayin for one of my builds. No way.
   

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #577 on: Feb 24, 2009 at 01:32 PM »
Welcome to pdvd.

As sir Tony T suggested perhaps diyaudio.com is the best forum to post your concerns :)  Kindly email or call cayinusa.com they are the US distributor and they can best answer your concerns.  I am sure they are more than willing to help you open a communication line with Cayin. 

As much as we would like to help and continue this discussion... it is quite difficult since we reside in different continents and it would be hard to even arrange a get together discussion over a cup of coffee.  I have given ptubeh the version that he has which was early 2005 30W version which we do not carry so its hard for us to do our tests on different versions.

I have given sir patubeh the values and answer some of the technical questions he posted via pm.  If you have more kindly pm me so that we can direct them through the right channels.  But then again cayinusa.com is the nearest to you and would be in the best position to answer or help you given that the amp of patubeh was supposedly purchased from the US.

Thanks and hope to see you more at pdvd.



Offline captkhz

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #578 on: Feb 24, 2009 at 11:48 PM »
 Thank you,   I only post to clear questions directed  (to me)regarding unit I looked at and post the tech. facts and discovery.  I have no more concern....let people decide valid of concerns here at this discussion.    Good day Sirs........

Offline ptubeh

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #579 on: Feb 25, 2009 at 04:13 AM »
This has been an interesting thread.  In the end, I think that the A70T 30W version (properly biased by capthz) is a great sounding amp.  I took it over to a friend's house this weekend and we tried it out on his B&W speakers.  He has always used SS gear as does another friend who joined us in the session.  They both were very impressed with the results.  The B&W owner wants to get one now.  The other friend is thinking about building a tube amp now (he is a EE).  So, no question that the amp sounds very good.

As an experiment, I sat in front of the amp so that they could not see it.  While music was playing, I removed the 5AR4 and put it back in several times.  Neither of them (nor I) could hear any difference in the sound.  Further, there is not popping sound when you do this, so they did not know when the tube was in and when it was out.  So that tubes supposed positive effects failed this blind test. 

We did some swapping of the small signal tubes and they COULD tell the difference in this case.  So they are not deaf :)

I have heard that Kondo, the amp guru who designed the Onganku, used a SS rectifier in parallel  with a tube in some of his amps.  HE claimed that it improved the sound of the amp.  Maybe Cayin got the idea to try this based on the authority of some guru.  But I tend to think this is some kind of magical thinking.  And my friends failure to hear a difference confirms this to me.

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #580 on: Feb 25, 2009 at 08:07 AM »
Sirs,

This is precisely the problem we are facing now.  You are from the US, hence there is a distance issue here.  We cannot even invite you so that we can share or discuss our discoveries with you (we did but you are in the US).  Besides, we are discussing here an amp that was purchased from the US in 2005 with the version we clearly do not and have not carried. 

Yes, your findings for your sample are probably true.  However, we carry a different version and our findings for our samples are most likely true as well.  There is no way we can share both sides since we are half a world apart.  We are trying our best to help you with specs and communication from Cayin.  All we are requesting is that perhaps it would be better if you take it up with the US distributor or perhaps post your concerns in a US forum (diyaudio or audiogon) so that people there could better help you.  It is kind of unfair to us here as well doing honest business if we are critiquing an amp which we do not carry.  We have been in business here in the Philippines for 5 years and so far we have built a very solid reputation in honesty and customer service (unless any pdvd member will object to this).

As you said... your amp sounds great.  Your friend wants to buy one too?  The 5AR4 of your version doesn't work?  All in all lets enjoy the music and perhaps leave the technicalities aside or perhaps write www.cayinusa.com since there is really no way we can all sit down in one room to share our discoveries.

Thank You

- If you have anything that you want me to email Cayin please pm it so that i can try to forward it to them again.  This is the most that I can do for you at this point given that the unit you have is past its warranty and is not from us.  I am really sorry if that amp brought you so much disappointment and trouble (but as an good Cayin distributor we did even offer to buy it back so that you can design and diy an amp to your specs).  On the positive side our A70T version have also brought a lot of customers and friends enjoyment which is also a fact supported by the almost zero used market for Cayin products here in the Philippines.   
« Last Edit: Feb 25, 2009 at 09:25 AM by AudioAmplified »

Offline louiesia

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #581 on: Feb 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM »
masyado na technical ito............  ??? :'(
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Offline ptubeh

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #582 on: Feb 25, 2009 at 12:40 PM »
Hi again,

Frankly, I think this topic has run its course.  I am in contact with the US distributor (a very nice guy, indeed).

The reason for starting this topic was simply to question Cayin's use of a 5AR4 in the A70T.  My amp is three years old, but the current crop of 55W versions have exactly the same 5AR4 implementation.  So it is valid to bring this issue up.  Regardless of our geographical location, this is a worthwhile topic on any internet forum.  And I think that it quite informative to discuss these things, both for the techies, casual consumers, sales and distributor folks, and the manufacturer.  It provides a little insight into the thinking of the manufacturer.

Cayin's only explanation for this tube is that it "sounds better".  Well, they are in good company with this opinion.  Kondo makes some of the most expensive and highly regarded amps on the planet, and I have heard that he shares this opinion (I can't verify this though  :P).  And the US distributor told me that people who can not hear the difference between a Sovtek and Mullard 5AR4 in this amp don't listen very well - which must include me ;D.  So there are a number of people who think this design has merit.  I differ with that opinion.  I believe that sonically it makes no difference at all.

There is a lot of magical thinking in audio.  You even find it among very technically savvy people.  My final thoughts on this are that either Cayin truly believes that this design improves the sound (against all technical logic - and my informal blind test) or they put the tube on the amp just because it looked nice.  The latter explanation doesn't make much sense because it cost money to put this tube in the amp - and I doubt there are many people who would base their decision to buy this amp on the presence or absence of a rectifier tube.  So I am inclined to believe that the folks at Cayin indulge themselves in a bit of magicism.

And finally, I will state that despite this issue with the 5AR4 and the auto-bias issue (which is fixed) this Cayin product is exceedingly fine, both in terms of sound and build quality.  I would not discourage anyone from purchasing this amp because of the 5AR4 setup.  In fact, one of my listening buddies wants exactly this amp after hearing it this weekend.  I would, however, strongly discourage people from spending money on expensive NOS 5AR4 tubes though.

I had thought about trying out the 55W version.  But after getting the bias set properly on the Class A version, I have a hard time imagining that the 55W version would be any better (despite two distributors insisting that the 55W version is better).  Plus, I get pure Class A, which some magicist think is inherently better than AB1  ;D So I will probably hold off on the experiment for now and just - enjoy the wonderful music that this piece produces.

Offline captkhz

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #583 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 03:02 AM »
  Hello,
  I, as well ,think this thread (on the 5AR4) has run it's course. As a technical person, and electronics learned person, I must point out that technicals do matter. The technicals are what make an electronics product what it is!  Of course!   Objectively, this is an average product in design and build, with this issue of deceptive implementation at issue.  I am sorry, but, these are real issues with real impact on product reliability, resale value and performance. Vacuum tube amplifiers in general, are well worth ownership, and this product should not, and will not, tarnish this fact!

Offline 4krow

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #584 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 08:32 AM »
To most all who have contributed to this discussion, I have respect for the honesty and diplomacy shown in pointing out the opinions and facts about this case. Despit the fact that I enjoy my A70-T(55W version), it is good to know about the 5AR4 issue. As I stated much earlier, I too, noticed the diodes in place, as I was repairing a power problem with my amp. It did seem odd to me, and now I feel more informed about it. Regardless, I will confess that I will use a 'cooler looking' tube, just to show off............maybe with a blue glow.

Offline qguy

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #585 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 08:38 AM »
WOW that was a pain to read  ;D

To most all who have contributed to this discussion, I have respect for the honesty and diplomacy shown in pointing out the opinions and facts about this case. Despit the fact that I enjoy my A70-T(55W version), it is good to know about the 5AR4 issue. As I stated much earlier, I too, noticed the diodes in place, as I was repairing a power problem with my amp. It did seem odd to me, and now I feel more informed about it. Regardless, I will confess that I will use a 'cooler looking' tube, just to show off............maybe with a blue glow.

Offline 4krow

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #586 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM »
  Heh heh, sorry, but just be glad I don't use infrared...besides, I knew that you couldn't resist it if it were like a whisper.

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #587 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM »

you may like to try a 5w4..cost penalty of just about 7watts.. 8)

To most all who have contributed to this discussion, I have respect for the honesty and diplomacy shown in pointing out the opinions and facts about this case. Despit the fact that I enjoy my A70-T(55W version), it is good to know about the 5AR4 issue. As I stated much earlier, I too, noticed the diodes in place, as I was repairing a power problem with my amp. It did seem odd to me, and now I feel more informed about it. Regardless, I will confess that I will use a 'cooler looking' tube, just to show off............maybe with a blue glow.
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline qguy

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #588 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 12:31 PM »
how much power does a 5ar4 consume ?

you may like to try a 5w4..cost penalty of just about 7watts.. 8)


Offline captkhz

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #589 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 01:09 PM »
        I like the cool looking high altitude military spec 5R4 GYB!  I had to try these colors!

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #590 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 02:38 PM »
how much power does a 5ar4 consume ?


without the ss diodes, about 18 watts, with the ss diodes around 9watts...

this is because with the ss diodes there, only the filament is heated, the plates are cool passing micro-micro-amps instead of milliamps.... ;D
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Offline ATJr.

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #591 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 02:43 PM »
  Hello,
  I, as well ,think this thread (on the 5AR4) has run it's course. As a technical person, and electronics learned person, I must point out that technicals do matter. The technicals are what make an electronics product what it is!  Of course!   Objectively, this is an average product in design and build, with this issue of deceptive implementation at issue.  I am sorry, but, these are real issues with real impact on product reliability, resale value and performance. Vacuum tube amplifiers in general, are well worth ownership, and this product should not, and will not, tarnish this fact!

out of defference to the thread owner...maybe we can continue this on another thread, just a thought......maybe the mods can split this thread.... 8)
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Offline romymartinez

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #592 on: Feb 26, 2009 at 05:06 PM »
out of defference to the thread owner...maybe we can continue this on another thread, just a thought......maybe the mods can split this thread.... 8)

Amen to that

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #593 on: Feb 27, 2009 at 01:00 PM »
out of defference to the thread owner...maybe we can continue this on another thread, just a thought......maybe the mods can split this thread.... 8)



my thoughts exactly, that way we can kill ourselves with the technicalities and decrease non-technical casualties at the same time.



Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #594 on: Mar 02, 2009 at 10:40 PM »
Got this email from Cayin and it is quite humbling for them to consult a Philippine distributor about new product design.

We got some ideas from our dealers and customers so we will definitely let them know what is good for us.  At least we know they are listening.  If you guys have any "wish list"  Kindly pm and be heard  :)



From: "John" <[email protected]>
Date: March 2, 2009 5:01:49 PM GMT+08:00
To: "tyroneco" <[email protected]>, "noel_deslate" <[email protected]>
Subject: suggestions

Dear Tyrone and Noel,

How's your business just now during the current economic situation?

Tomorrow we will have a meeting to discuss some issues regarding new products design ang research. Do you have some suggestions according to your market and your long experience in the business? If so please let us know and we will have a discussion accordingly.

Thanks and best regards!

Yours,
john


Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #595 on: Mar 07, 2009 at 08:42 AM »
Dear Customers,

Our new Cayin shipment has just arrived.  For those who placed orders kindly pick-up.

Also available is the new SP Woodstock line in Cherry and Walnut color.


Offline louiesia

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #596 on: Mar 10, 2009 at 01:22 PM »
whats the best floorstander speakers for the cayin A-50T.

CAYIN CDT 17A, CAYIN A50T, INFINITY PRIMUS 362, DARED MP5

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #597 on: Mar 13, 2009 at 11:10 PM »
whats the best floorstander speakers for the cayin A-50T.



Cayin is a neutral sounding amp so they fit almost all speakers fine.  So far we have paired it with Aurum, ERA, Vandersteen, PSB, Polk, B&W (Toyama does use it in their showroom), Dyns, Sonus, Wharf, and even vintage speakers.

Tell us your room size, budget for the speaker and type of music and we can better help you with your search.

Thanks

Offline trumanfools

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #598 on: Mar 19, 2009 at 03:34 PM »
Hi AudioAmplified,

Sir interesado ako sa Cayin integrated amps. I am looking forward to upgrade my amp.. I need your precious tip whether there's really big difference in terms of sound quality (not power quantity) between a-88t and a-50t? I have a small bedroom around 3.75 m X 3.75 m. My living room is around 4 X 5 m. I will use the system on those 2 areas of my place. My speaker is AVI Neutron IV which sounds not bad on my marantz amp. I am upgrading due to lacking of holographic soundstage and lacking of focus & sweetness of vocals.

Is a-50t good enough for my AVI speaker? or, is there a big difference when I choose a-88t?

Thank you.

Offline louiesia

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Re: Official Cayin Thread
« Reply #599 on: Mar 19, 2009 at 09:31 PM »
Hi AudioAmplified,

Sir interesado ako sa Cayin integrated amps. I am looking forward to upgrade my amp.. I need your precious tip whether there's really big difference in terms of sound quality (not power quantity) between a-88t and a-50t? I have a small bedroom around 3.75 m X 3.75 m. My living room is around 4 X 5 m. I will use the system on those 2 areas of my place. My speaker is AVI Neutron IV which sounds not bad on my marantz amp. I am upgrading due to lacking of holographic soundstage and lacking of focus & sweetness of vocals.

Is a-50t good enough for my AVI speaker? or, is there a big difference when I choose a-88t?

Thank you.


i suggest you audition the cayin with your existing speakers first before deciding. I could save you a lot of money
 
CAYIN CDT 17A, CAYIN A50T, INFINITY PRIMUS 362, DARED MP5