Author Topic: JojoD's Tube and Solid State Projects (Read 1130693 times)

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10710 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 12:22 AM »

So true ..... but do take note:

1. In isolating and not using the source power from the PC, we still take pains to quiet down the overall PC operation (fanless CPU and PSU, high speed cables, minimal OS operation) in order to reduce jitter and not to contaminate the music data.
2. The USB power plant will need clean/stable power conversion from AC-DC. And the DC power will then be super regulated to provide the preceding USB Dac with clean power.
3. It would be better to separate the data and power after the USB source (PC) while the new power is introduced and regulated. Then they go together in the USB input of the dac.

Quote from: JojoD818 on Jan 20, 2015 at 08:57 PM

Intrigued ako until I tried it myself...

Halos lahat kasi mga USB DACs depend sa power ng desktop/laptop tapos wala man lang barrier sa psu, basta diretso lang connection, pag umandar ok na. Kaya gumawa ako nun USB breakout board para makapag experiment at prove to myself kung may effect nga o placebo lang.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10711 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 01:30 AM »

I think I got #2 and #3 already covered. Electronics yan eh.

Though I'd love to implement iFi's isoground management too which I haven't tried yet.

As for #1, I did run into some trouble but luckily isolated the cause of the problem to be the usb cable with a ferrite core. It was messing with my readings, I thought it was ok but it seems to aggravate hf response in the cable. I was thinking "ok lang digital signal pa naman" but I read that these things can cause severe signal bounce and noise enough for the usb receiver to "mis-read" and as for a signal resend.

I have no solid proof yet, just taking readings and baby steps in the hopes of bettering the approach on how I can power my USB DAC. Burr-Brown has some fine white papers and articles but it's starting to get overwhelming.

FHM na lang muna babasahin ko pampaantok...

deist · « **Reply #10712 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 01:49 AM »

Lalong di ka aantukin nyan,magigising diwa mo haha

For #1 - xmos or amanero board...my next question is:will this also work with external DACs which has its own power supply?

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10713 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 09:13 AM »

Quote from: deist on Jan 21, 2015 at 01:49 AM

Lalong di ka aantukin nyan,magigising diwa mo haha

For #1 - xmos or amanero board...my next question is:will this also work with external DACs which has its own power supply?

Speaking of antok, di pa ako natutulog.

Xmos cable brader? Luckily, yun xmos usb receiver natin may sariling power (8V yata yun nasa schematic) pero pumasok pa din sa xmos daughter board yun 5V from the laptop eh. Anyway, di ko pa naman nasubukan sa DAC natin yan pero dun sa Muse at sa 707 na pina-repair na try ko na.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10714 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 09:57 AM »

I think it should help ...... but the dac's own power supply should also be well implemented as it is another variable on its own. You also have to understand how power is being managed within the dac that has its own power supply. That is the reason why iFi built a good separate power supply unit to be combined with its own dac and other devices needing USB power for operation.

Quote from: deist on Jan 21, 2015 at 01:49 AM

...my next question is:will this also work with external DACs which has its own power supply?

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10715 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 10:01 AM »

So, first things first, you should have a good dac. Therefore its output is assumed to be very good.

Now, dirty power should not be introduced into the dac's input which comes from the source - computer. iFi USB, for example, is installed into the computer's USB output and takes over the computer's incoming power and supply its own clean power.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10716 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 10:08 AM »

Even Light Harmonics Lab also developed its own LPS (linear power supply) and a lot of audio users have attested that the LPS has even improved hi-end dacs - But the reality is, the LPS has prevented the dirty power from the source from contaminating the dac.

tony · « **Reply #10717 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 10:15 AM »

Quote from: JoeyGS on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:01 AM

So, first things first, you should have a good dac. Therefore its output is assumed to be very good.

Now, dirty power should not be introduced into the dac's input which comes from the source - computer. iFi USB, for example, is installed into the computer's USB output and takes over the computer's incoming power and supply its own clean power.

the only way to achieve galvanic isolation between the pc psu
and the dac psu is to use a signal isolation transformer..
something like this....https://edcorusa.com/umm-8pc

another way would be to convert the output of the pc to balanced line
and make the input of the dac balanced, this way galvanic isolation is maintained...

might even help to use isolation transfomer on the pc itself...

deist · « **Reply #10718 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 10:24 AM »

Correct me If i'm wrong, from my research the XMOS, Amanero, exau21 etc boards main functions are: Asynchronous reclocking, isolation & jitter reduction.

It was developed for computer audiophiles who want to enjoy bit-perfect, low jitter sound without having to spend thousand/s of dollars on audio specific computer build. It filters the signal before going to the DAC. The sound path is like this:

Source>usb>i2s>xmos>dac

deist · « **Reply #10719 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 10:27 AM »

Yes, makakapasok yung power sa XMOS daughter board pero it should be filtered before going to the DAC.

Quote from: JojoD818 on Jan 21, 2015 at 09:13 AM

Speaking of antok, di pa ako natutulog.

Xmos cable brader? Luckily, yun xmos usb receiver natin may sariling power (8V yata yun nasa schematic) pero pumasok pa din sa xmos daughter board yun 5V from the laptop eh. Anyway, di ko pa naman nasubukan sa DAC natin yan pero dun sa Muse at sa 707 na pina-repair na try ko na.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10720 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 11:47 AM »

Correct me if I am wrong....... As I understand XMOS mostly handles data processing and even if it is able to correct the incoming data stream into the supposedly correct output data, a noisy/dirty power supply can still contaminate the processed data. Power and data from the computer enters simultaneously into the dac with the data passing thru the XMOS chip and power is needed in order for the chip to function and do its processing. If the power being used is dirty, the processed data from the XMOS chip can be contaminated by the dirty power being used.

I am sure the Amanero boards are beautifully designed and can output quality audio data. But if you feed it with dirty power in order to operate, then there goes the contamination.

Quote from: deist on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:24 AM

Correct me If i'm wrong, from my research the XMOS, Amanero, exau21 etc boards main functions are: Asynchronous reclocking, isolation & jitter reduction.

It was developed for computer audiophiles who want to enjoy bit-perfect, low jitter sound without having to spend thousand/s of dollars on audio specific computer build. It filters the signal before going to the DAC. The sound path is like this:

Source>usb>i2s>xmos>dac

deist · « **Reply #10721 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 11:59 AM »

Sir Joey, you are talking about the XMOS "chip", I'm referring to the "board" which has other components like oscillators for asynchronous reclocking, ultra low noise power regulator etc.

something like this:
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html

Quote from: JoeyGS on Jan 21, 2015 at 11:47 AM

Correct me if I am wrong....... As I understand XMOS mostly handles data processing and even if it is able to correct the incoming data stream into the supposedly correct output data, a noisy/dirty power supply can still contaminate the processed data. Power and data from the computer enters simultaneously into the dac with the data passing thru the XMOS chip and power is needed in order for the chip to function and do its processing. If the power being used is dirty, the processed data from the XMOS chip can be contaminated by the dirty power being used.

I am sure the Amanero boards are beautifully designed and can output quality audio data. But if you feed it with dirty power in order to operate, then there goes the contamination.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10722 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 01:01 PM »

Yup .... the XMOS is the reclocker only before it enters into your dac chip for conversion, as I understand it. With the link you provided, where does the regulator gets it power from? Externally? or from the PC USB? Seems it will get power from where the dac get its power ...... So it depends on the implementation......

So if it gets its power from where the dac gets its power, is the power source clean?

iFi's implementation is as follows ..... from what I understand:

PC USB ---- power/data > iUSB ---- iUSB power > iFi Dac (contains Xmos chip and Dac chip)
---- PC data /

deist · « **Reply #10723 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 01:22 PM »

Our DAC experiment consists of 2 different stand-alone products, what I mean is the XMOS board is an optional component. The DAC board has its own power regulator/s, and will function on its own using SPDIF or optical connection. I think in essence we have 2 power regulator implementations in 1 completed DAC but I maybe wrong, I haven't looked thoroughly at each component hehehe

Anyways, Master Jojo's new experiment is a very welcome addition to computer audio system. The salas regulator has been the go-to approach since the TDA1541A days. With this development on board, it will only take our system to another level in terms of cleaning power, it will be like the Caltex's "Techron", Shell's "Nitro", Petron's "Blaze", Phoenix's...teka wala yata....meron pala - "Manny Pacquiao"

Quote from: JoeyGS on Jan 21, 2015 at 01:01 PM

Yup .... the XMOS is the reclocker only before it enters into your dac chip for conversion, as I understand it. With the link you provided, where does the regulator gets it power from? Externally? or from the PC USB? Seems it will get power from where the dac get its power ...... So it depends on the implementation......

So if it gets its power from where the dac gets its power, is the power source clean?

iFi's implementation is as follows ..... from what I understand:

PC USB ---- power/data > iUSB ---- iUSB power > iFi Dac (contains Xmos chip and Dac chip)
---- PC data /

Cjtjader · « **Reply #10724 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 01:51 PM »

Very informative exchange of infos!...newbies like me should be reading these!....a "do it once, do it right" benefits!

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10725 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 03:48 PM »

Quote from: JoeyGS on Jan 21, 2015 at 01:01 PM

Yup .... the XMOS is the reclocker only before it enters into your dac chip for conversion, as I understand it. With the link you provided, where does the regulator gets it power from? Externally? or from the PC USB? Seems it will get power from where the dac get its power ...... So it depends on the implementation......

So if it gets its power from where the dac gets its power, is the power source clean?

Judging from the schematics I got, our DAC uses the xmos as usb interface and has it's own power source, on the same board but separate from the DAC and other chips.

The power sources, starting from the rectifiers down to the regulators are top notch - that, and apart from having an AKM DAC chip, are the main reason why I took the opportunity when brader deist told me I can piggyback with his order.

Another factor why I (I can only speak for myself, di ko alam reason ni brader deist

) considered it was the implementation. CCS in the regulators, precision reference sources, and even good old uf/fr diodes were used. Wala na nga ako papalitan, well yun differential opamp lang siguro.

Xmos is currently the best peripheral interface chip in the market today, it is not for diyers though because there is a MOQ for the chips. As for the AKM DAC, it's just a matter of personal preference, other DAC chips (ESS, BB, Wolfson, AD, CS, etc) are all well and with their own sonic personality. "Kung saan lang masaya" applies here.

Quote

iFi's implementation is as follows ..... from what I understand:

PC USB ---- power/data > iUSB ---- iUSB power > iFi Dac (contains Xmos chip and Dac chip)
---- PC data /

Same approach lang din if that is the case. Though this reminds me that I can also diy a usb cable like iFi's Gemin... nadagdagan na naman gagawin ko, di pa nga tapos power plant meron na sunod.

Anyway, in the meantime, I will concentrate my free time on the power plant in the hopes of supplying clean power to a DAC rather than get it from the laptop.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10726 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 03:59 PM »

Quote from: Cjtjader on Jan 21, 2015 at 01:51 PM

Very informative exchange of infos!...newbies like me should be reading these!....a "do it once, do it right" benefits!

Exciting times, especially when there's a difference - good or bad it's still a learning curve.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10727 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 04:09 PM »

Siguro .... simply said ..... Do not let that dirty power coming from the PC/source USB interface get into the XMOS/Dac assembly.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10728 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 05:06 PM »

Exactly, and to make this endeavor more meaningful, sana it makes a difference in my other USB DACs too. Baka maging production class itong power plant ah...

deist · « **Reply #10729 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 05:12 PM »

Brader, it was the AKM4490 dac all along, the bonus is when you said that the board was built to the chip manufacturer's specification, remember I asked you to check the implementation before placing the order? Diyers are raving about how this dac chip is the most analogue sounding they've heard & mind you these guys can go anal about this stuff, and you validated that claim so I decided to give it a try. Whatever the outcome is, we sure have learned a lot of things along the way

I love products which show character more than the numbers suggest, and my gut tells me this endeavor is gearing towards that outcome. Same reason why I went for Markaudio drivers, their FR graphs are not the flattest you will see in the market but when properly implemented they can beat the hell out of the more expensive speakers.

Pls keep us posted sa power plant project, will be a big help to computer audio systems...beta tester here nuninuninu

Quote from: JojoD818 on Jan 21, 2015 at 03:48 PM

Judging from the schematics I got, our DAC uses the xmos as usb interface and has it's own power source, on the same board but separate from the DAC and other chips.

The power sources, starting from the rectifiers down to the regulators are top notch - that, and apart from having an AKM DAC chip, are the main reason why I took the opportunity when brader deist told me I can piggyback with his order.

Another factor why I (I can only speak for myself, di ko alam reason ni brader deist ) considered it was the implementation. CCS in the regulators, precision reference sources, and even good old uf/fr diodes were used. Wala na nga ako papalitan, well yun differential opamp lang siguro.

Xmos is currently the best peripheral interface chip in the market today, it is not for diyers though because there is a MOQ for the chips. As for the AKM DAC, it's just a matter of personal preference, other DAC chips (ESS, BB, Wolfson, AD, CS, etc) are all well and with their own sonic personality. "Kung saan lang masaya" applies here.

Same approach lang din if that is the case. Though this reminds me that I can also diy a usb cable like iFi's Gemin... nadagdagan na naman gagawin ko, di pa nga tapos power plant meron na sunod.

Anyway, in the meantime, I will concentrate my free time on the power plant in the hopes of supplying clean power to a DAC rather than get it from the laptop.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10730 on:** Jan 21, 2015 at 05:33 PM »

Quote from: deist on Jan 21, 2015 at 05:12 PM

Brader, it was the AKM4490 dac all along, the bonus is when you said that the board was built to the chip manufacturer's specification, remember I asked you to check the implementation before placing the order? Diyers are raving about how this dac chip is the most analogue sounding they've heard & mind you these guys can go anal about this stuff, and you validated that claim so I decided to give it a try. Whatever the outcome is, we sure have learned a lot of things along the way

I love products which show character more than the numbers suggest, and my gut tells me this endeavor is gearing towards that outcome. Same reason why I went for Markaudio drivers, their FR graphs are not the flattest you will see in the market but when properly implemented they can beat the hell out of the more expensive speakers.

Pls keep us posted sa power plant project, will be a big help to computer audio systems...beta tester here nuninuninu

At first I was kinda nervous kasi parang hype ang dating but I do have an idea na of the sonic character of these chips before, besides, my RTA uses an AKM chip also. Parang SM grocery nangyari puro na nga bonus eh.

Natakot lang ako kasi yun iba as DA rave ang dating, allergic ako sa rave eh, I'd appreciate it if I like it, either way quiet lang.

Maganda yun implementation, no fuss no frills approach. Kung baga sa kamote, pinakuluan lang, hindi na binalot sa asukal.

Sure, will do a couple of prototypes pag dumating molex connectors ko, yun nabili ko sa Deeco brass ang mga contacts kaya ang bilis mag oxidize kapag nasugat na. Iguguhit ko na into a formal circuit yun naka breadboard baka makalimutan ko pa, after that bahala na si Abacus Robot diyan.