Author Topic: JojoD's Tube and Solid State Projects (Read 1130728 times)

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10860 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 10:32 AM »

Quote from: Cjtjader on Feb 05, 2015 at 10:14 AM

Brader , will make sure next visit nyo ng St. Rose, meron na si Joey ng home brew USB cable.:-)

Awesome

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10861 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 10:51 AM »

Oks brader.

@Jojo ... any tips on how to connect the wires into the USB connectors using a Y-split configuration separating power from data

Quote from: Cjtjader on Feb 05, 2015 at 10:11 AM

I still owe you one usb, brader!:-/

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10862 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 11:33 AM »

Quote from: JoeyGS on Feb 05, 2015 at 10:51 AM

Oks brader.

@Jojo ... any tips on how to connect the wires into the USB connectors using a Y-split configuration separating power from data

Section 5, Article 2 of Intel's EMI Design Guidelines for USB Components recommends that for reliable maximum transfer speeds, a minimum of 65% braiding is required. Full speed USB cables are specified to have a woven or spirally wound copper shield.

Unfortunately, the use of a foil shield with a drain wire is not recommended due to the series inductance of the drain wire and the tendency of foil to crack with cable flexing.

Cjtjader · « **Reply #10863 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 11:35 AM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 05, 2015 at 11:33 AM

Section 5, Article 2 of Intel's EMI Design Guidelines for USB Components recommends that for reliable maximum transfer speeds, a minimum of 65% braiding is required. Full speed USB cables are specified to have a woven or spirally wound copper shield.

Unfortunately, the use of a foil shield with a drain wire is not recommended due to the series inductance of the drain wire and the tendency of foil to crack with cable flexing.

Very interesting!..unfortunately, it contradicts my configuration!:(

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10864 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 12:29 PM »

Quote from: Cjtjader on Feb 05, 2015 at 11:35 AM

Very interesting!..unfortunately, it contradicts my configuration!:(

This is for the data line packets brader, for high speed 24/192, 32/384, DSD, etc. I think we can use your configuration for the power line but you must redesign your implementation for the data line. The Gemini USB cable seems to do this, all those external CD writers use this implementation too not just because of separation of data and power line but to implement proper EMI shielding to guarantee maximum data transfer.

Noon araw (mga 25 years ago), ang bagal pa ng IDE so SCSI pa ang interface ng mga CD Writers, pero minsan kahit anong bilis ng SCSI interface nagkakaroon pa din ng "buffer underrun" problems kasi kinakapos sa data yun writer.

Translate that to our audio systems and we end up with a DAC having interrupted data packets, hence, jitter.

Back then, the cable mattered so much due to EMI problems. Unless we address this with our diy cables, we will end up having the same problems all over again.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10865 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 02:55 PM »

Great insight Jojo!

How about the application of ferrite at the ends? Is this needed? Most of the good audio grade USB cables make ferrite cores as the finishing USB connector encapsulation on all ends.

Cjtjader · « **Reply #10866 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 03:09 PM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 05, 2015 at 12:29 PM

This is for the data line packets brader, for high speed 24/192, 32/384, DSD, etc. I think we can use your configuration for the power line but you must redesign your implementation for the data line. The Gemini USB cable seems to do this, all those external CD writers use this implementation too not just because of separation of data and power line but to implement proper EMI shielding to guarantee maximum data transfer.

Noon araw (mga 25 years ago), ang bagal pa ng IDE so SCSI pa ang interface ng mga CD Writers, pero minsan kahit anong bilis ng SCSI interface nagkakaroon pa din ng "buffer underrun" problems kasi kinakapos sa data yun writer.

Translate that to our audio systems and we end up with a DAC having interrupted data packets, hence, jitter.

Back then, the cable mattered so much due to EMI problems. Unless we address this with our diy cables, we will end up having the same problems all over again.

Will do, Brader. Will also let you know once i made a new cable.....thanks for the info.:-)

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10867 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 07:22 PM »

Quote from: JoeyGS on Feb 05, 2015 at 02:55 PM

Great insight Jojo!

How about the application of ferrite at the ends? Is this needed? Most of the good audio grade USB cables make ferrite cores as the finishing USB connector encapsulation on all ends.

It's more of a redundancy rather than necessity for EMI control strategies. Studies shows that the implementation of the harness is more important to control EMI emissions that would lead to bounce and/or losses. So it's better to design and implement it according to specifications rather than slap patch solutions on a lousy job.

The main goal is the destruction of digital audio jitter and deliver all those pulses from the source to the DAC in pristine timing and condition. Unbeknownst to most, there are several types of jitter and among these that affects us audio hobbyist are the interface jitter and sampling jitter. Unless we design our own DAC, there is not much we can do with sampling jitter, we are at the mercy of our DAC designs and their internal clock (or re-clockers). Even re-clocking isn't 100% guarantee either, there's just some acceptable form of compromise in there that must be accepted. Others will argue with the use of super precision clock crystals, well, the fact that the argument exists is a give away.

Interface jitter on the other hand is far too common in digital audio setups with computers as frontends as these types of setups utilize the USB connection (as opposed to cd transports and other platforms that uses S/PDIF, AES-EBU, Optical connections). Everyone in the audio engineering world would agree that the uber famous USB interface wasn't truly designed for audio use in the first place. Designers of the interface didn't have digital audio on the top of their list when they invented the USB interface. However, having the ability to stream quite a large amount of data in such high speeds makes it a suitable candidate for digital audio reproduction provided the proper converters and interface peripherals are used.

A lot of factors affects these nuisances, what we want to do is eliminate as many factors as possible.

In retrospect, digital audio reproduction has a lot in common with pure analog systems, there's just so much room for improvement.

Geez that was long, hope I didn't bore you.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10868 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 07:24 PM »

Quote from: Cjtjader on Feb 05, 2015 at 03:09 PM

Will do, Brader. Will also let you know once i made a new cable.....thanks for the info.:-)

Uhmm brader, I think this is best discussed at Savory along with some young chow and spicy garlic spare ribs. Then coffee afterwards?

Would you agree?

Gino · « **Reply #10869 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 07:31 PM »

Agree. (Sumabat eh.)

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10870 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 07:35 PM »

Quote from: Gino on Feb 05, 2015 at 07:31 PM

Agree. (Sumabat eh.)

Baka mapalaban ka bro, tig isang order kami ng young chow...

deist · « **Reply #10871 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 08:25 PM »

Oy oy oy!wag nyong pagtulungan si brader Cal at pag natapos nyan ang usb cable papahiramin ako ng test unit nyan nuninu ninu

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10872 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 08:35 PM »

Quote from: deist on Feb 05, 2015 at 08:25 PM

Oy oy oy!wag nyong pagtulungan si brader Cal at pag natapos nyan ang usb cable papahiramin ako ng test unit nyan nuninu ninu

Galing ng style mo brader hahaha!

geriboy · « **Reply #10873 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 09:18 PM »

pwede ba sumama sa inyo sa kainan?

geriboy · « **Reply #10874 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 09:22 PM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 05, 2015 at 07:22 PM

...
Geez that was long, hope I didn't bore you.

Sir Jojo, maraming salamat sa mga posts ninyo.

medyo OT: if a laptop has a built-in digital out connection (either optical or spdif), mas ok ba ito (compared to USB) na gamitin to connect the laptop to the external DAC?

deist · « **Reply #10875 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 09:29 PM »

brader Jo, thanks for writing that novel este very insightful & long comment above

I agree that EMI has been usb cable's worst enemy for a long time now. Like brader Joey, im also curious about your opinion on ferrite beads/cores. There are lenghty discussions & debates about its effects & implementations online about this topic with matching scientific tests & findings. Truth is im still not sure about my personal findings.

Regarding jitter, all files played on a pc, network server or cellphones will have jitter. It's next to impossible to totally eliminate it, that's why most DAC companies market their products with "low jitter" or even "ultra low jitter" in their pitch, if you see tags like "jitter free" or "zero jitter" for me thar's plain BS. I think the trick is to lessen it to a level that it becomes inaudible during playback. With the implementation of Asynchronous mode, we dont have to depend on the source's timing which are notoriously bad at keeping stable clocks. Indeed there's a bright future ahead for computer audio systems

deist · « **Reply #10876 on:** Feb 05, 2015 at 09:32 PM »

Syempre naman

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 05, 2015 at 08:35 PM

Galing ng style mo brader hahaha!

Cjtjader · « **Reply #10877 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 09:40 AM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 05, 2015 at 07:24 PM

Uhmm brader, I think this is best discussed at Savory along with some young chow and spicy garlic spare ribs. Then coffee afterwards?

Would you agree?

Sure brader,! Pero ayaw ko na sumabay sa inyo ni joey ng tig-iisang bandehadong yang chow! Hindi ako maka-kilos ng 2oras sa kabusugan! Hahahaha...

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10878 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 12:13 PM »

Game na yan at i-schedule na!

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10879 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 12:54 PM »

Quote from: geriboy on Feb 05, 2015 at 09:22 PM

Sir Jojo, maraming salamat sa mga posts ninyo.

medyo OT: if a laptop has a built-in digital out connection (either optical or spdif), mas ok ba ito (compared to USB) na gamitin to connect the laptop to the external DAC?

There was a time the answer would be yes. Not too long ago (ten years?), most mainstream DACs don't have USB inputs, fairly so because the technology of the S/PDIF and optical links are still the dominant forms of interface not until AES-EBU came. But the latter is more focused on balanced connection which most audio hobbyist don't have in their system.

Then there came a revolution in portable headamp gears, the USB DAC, which I'm sure you know is focused to be used with headphones rather than full size speaker applications and uses our computers as "media source servers". However, people start to see the computer side of the dish, why not build a full size system with a computer as our frontends? This is where the problem started, the connection of the DAC being manufactured in huge numbers are all USB. Some attempted to bypass this by including coaxial and optical inputs, but the consumer wants computers as frontends so these are useless! High speed, high throughput devices for the USB interface were just not available at that time.

Then came an evolution where m2tech et al came about which is the implementation of asynchronous communications, a better USB interface to convert USB signals to S/PDIF. The evolution didn't stop there, soon TI, AD, Cystal and now XMOS developed high speed devices so we can harness a personal computer into a music server. The evolution came so fast, so much data can now be sent accurately downstream with lightning fast speeds that the attention soon shifted to the file format... and so DSD was born.

You see, man is a fool, never content and always evolving. As an engineer, we were taught that for every problem we solve, we unintentionally create another, no matter how subtle it may be.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10880 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 12:59 PM »

Quote from: deist on Feb 05, 2015 at 09:29 PM

brader Jo, thanks for writing that novel este very insightful & long comment above I agree that EMI has been usb cable's worst enemy for a long time now. Like brader Joey, im also curious about your opinion on ferrite beads/cores. There are lenghty discussions & debates about its effects & implementations online about this topic with matching scientific tests & findings. Truth is im still not sure about my personal findings.

Regarding jitter, all files played on a pc, network server or cellphones will have jitter. It's next to impossible to totally eliminate it, that's why most DAC companies market their products with "low jitter" or even "ultra low jitter" in their pitch, if you see tags like "jitter free" or "zero jitter" for me thar's plain BS. I think the trick is to lessen it to a level that it becomes inaudible during playback. With the implementation of Asynchronous mode, we dont have to depend on the source's timing which are notoriously bad at keeping stable clocks. Indeed there's a bright future ahead for computer audio systems

Exactly brader! I'm glad you get the idea behind asynchronous communications. The data is already sent, long before it is needed so source timing (and jitter for that matter) is not mission critical anymore!

Now, all we are left with is the DAC's jitter itself, something contained within the bounds of the DAC platform and design. You're right, there's no 100% jitter-free, at least not yet.

As for FB (ferrite beads not Facebook

) and cores, I usually reserve my "opinion" to myself, but since we are talking within the boundaries of Math and Science then maybe we can work something out.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10881 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:01 PM »

Quote from: Cjtjader on Feb 06, 2015 at 09:40 AM

Sure brader,! Pero ayaw ko na sumabay sa inyo ni joey ng tig-iisang bandehadong yang chow! Hindi ako maka-kilos ng 2oras sa kabusugan! Hahahaha...

Hhmmm... di ko mapapangako sa iyo yan brader... akala ko ba ang motto natin ay...

"life's too short, there's no escaping the inevitable so eat chicharon whenever you like..."

nabago na ba ito brader? di ko yata natanggap ang memo...

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10882 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:03 PM »

Quote from: JoeyGS on Feb 06, 2015 at 12:13 PM

Game na yan at i-schedule na!

Hirap naman kapag nagkikita-kita puro pagkain ang pianguusapan at inaatupag eh hahaha!

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10883 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:06 PM »

Ginutom ako sa discussion dito! .... ang sarap magbasa at makihalubilo.

Cal, I did not also receive the memo!

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10884 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:07 PM »

Aba eh kita mo naman ang result ng meetings, very fruitful! (pun intended!)

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 06, 2015 at 01:03 PM

Hirap naman kapag nagkikita-kita puro pagkain ang pianguusapan at inaatupag eh hahaha!

deist · « **Reply #10885 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:27 PM »

speaking of fruitful...namiss ko tuloy ang fruit salad!

Quote from: JoeyGS on Feb 06, 2015 at 01:07 PM

Aba eh kita mo naman ang result ng meetings, very fruitful! (pun intended!)

deist · « **Reply #10886 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:30 PM »

Isa sa pinaka-masustansyang thread here in PDVD. Maraming mapupulot na kaalaman. Husay pa mag-explain nung mama kung kanino naka-pangalan ang thread

Quote from: JoeyGS on Feb 06, 2015 at 01:06 PM

Ginutom ako sa discussion dito! .... ang sarap magbasa at makihalubilo.

baltoro · « **Reply #10887 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 01:40 PM »

Quote from: JojoD818 on Feb 05, 2015 at 07:24 PM

Uhmm brader, I think this is best discussed at Savory along with some young chow and spicy garlic spare ribs. Then coffee afterwards?

Would you agree?

Eto lang naintindihan ko...

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10888 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 02:17 PM »

JojoD818 · « **Reply #10889 on:** Feb 06, 2015 at 06:22 PM »

Quote from: deist on Feb 06, 2015 at 01:27 PM

speaking of fruitful...namiss ko tuloy ang fruit salad!

hindi ko yata natikman yan... busy ako sa rootbeer float eh...