Topic: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!

[Kevlar]

Speaker owners speak up!

The test CD to be used is the 'Best 80's Party Album... Ever!'
Track #2 is a song entitled 'The Promise'.  It is performed
by the band 'When in Rome'.

Most analytical speakers should be able to reproduce the 'howling' sound
within the first 60 seconds of the song 'The Promise'.
The 'howl' is also repeated within the song's body though not as
prominent as that produced in the first 60 seconds. 

If your speakers are able to reproduce this low-level detail,
list them here complete with the model number so we can have
a list of analytical/hyperdetailed speakers to purchase or to avoid.
(Some audiophiles don't like analytical speakers.)

- Kevlar

[av_phile1]

If you can rip the CD track into a wav or MP3 file, baka puedeng ma send as email attachment so I can try it out at home.  Thanks.  I'll PM you my email address if you can do this.

[NongP]

sir hindi kaya depende rin ito sa player and receiver na gamit mo?

[bumblebee]

sir hindi kaya depende rin ito sa player and receiver na gamit mo?

I read from another forum that horn speakers (Klipsch come to mind) are quite hard to tame, even by tube amps.

[ricky]

kef q1
jbl xti60
jbl xti20

All with howling detail, is it good or bad? sabi ni misis devil's song ha ha ha 

[Kevlar]

kef q1
jbl xti60
jbl xti20

All with howling detail, is it good or bad? sabi ni misis devil's song ha ha ha 

Actually, the more distinct the howl (that is, the clearer/stronger/louder), the more detailed
or analytical the speaker.  If you have to 'struggle' just to hear the howl or find it almost
inaudible, the less detailed/analytical the speakers.  My brother's DIY speaker is unable to
reproduce the howl at all. 

av_phile1,

You can try searching for MP3's in the internet.  'The Promise' was a very popular
80's pop/new wave song so it should be easy to find it.

- Kevlar

[jerix]

Speaker owners speak up!

The test CD to be used is the 'Best 80's Party Album... Ever!'
Track #2 is a song entitled 'The Promise'.  It is performed
by the band 'When in Rome'.

Most analytical speakers should be able to reproduce the 'howling' sound
within the first 60 seconds of the song 'The Promise'.
The 'howl' is also repeated within the song's body though not as
prominent as that produced in the first 60 seconds. 

If your speakers are able to reproduce this low-level detail,
list them here complete with the model number so we can have
a list of analytical/hyperdetailed speakers to purchase or to avoid.
(Some audiophiles don't like analytical speakers.)

- Kevlar

Is it really the intention of the sound engineers of the CD manu to have this howling sound heard clearly in a very certain audio level measurement? If this is so, then i believe you are right that we can use this as benchmark to test  the ability or test the characteristics of the player, amp or speakers to reproduce the same.   

[rascal101]

I never knew speakers had minds of their own.

We probably need to have a test cd with defined signals (amplitude and frequency from DC to 20KHz). Also need to have amplitude variation (10% to 90% peak, 50% to 100% peak etc etc) to test transient response and a reference set-up. Need to listen to the reference set-up then listen to the subject speaker.

[Abad Santos 7]

I am currently on the process of acquiring a speaker system. Agree with Sir rascal
the criteria he said is only my consideration as of now.

Meron pa palang iba...will constantly read this trend for some significant information.

Cheers.

[oweidah]

sir hindi kaya depende rin ito sa player and receiver na gamit mo?

agree- system synergy /takes all to tango.
*
http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=42&newssectionID=3
*

I am currently on the process of acquiring a speaker system. Agree with Sir rascal
the criteria he said is only my consideration as of now.
Meron pa palang iba...will constantly read this trend for some significant information.
Cheers.

* sir u may wana check this out.
http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=48&newssectionID=3
*
peace

[av_phile1]

I never knew speakers had minds of their own.

We probably need to have a test cd with defined signals (amplitude and frequency from DC to 20KHz). Also need to have amplitude variation (10% to 90% peak, 50% to 100% peak etc etc) to test transient response and a reference set-up. Need to listen to the reference set-up then listen to the subject speaker.

That's what professional equipment reviewers/critics do.  They have a test disc or signal generators and a reference system.  And ofcourse, lab-grade measuring instruments.

[Kevlar]

Is it really the intention of the sound engineers of the CD manu to have this howling sound heard clearly in a very certain audio level measurement? If this is so, then i believe you are right that we can use this as benchmark to test  the ability or test the characteristics of the player, amp or speakers to reproduce the same.   

Not really, it might not even be part of the sound mix at all, and the sound engineers probably don't
want you to hear it at all.  Maybe the song was recorded late at night and the howl of a dog (or is it a wolf?)
near the studio unintentionally got into the recording...  Whatever it is, that's the problem with
analytical/hyperdetailed speakers.  Some 'trains', 'animals' and other things in the background can get into
the recording and be very audible in some analytical/hyperdetailed speakers but in some speakers,
they may not be audible at all.

No, you should not use this as benchmark to test  the ability of the player, amp or speakers.  
It's used to test a 'subjective' speaker trait: 'analytical/hyperdetailed' in which there is  
no standardized/objective measurement.  Analytical/hyperdetailed does not necessarily mean
'accurate' since some analytical/hyperdetailed speakers can sound 'bright' (another 'subjective term')
because of a skewed frequency response especially in the low frequencies.

  Kevlar

[rascal101]

It's very difficult to say that you have a hyperdetailed speaker because the sounds that may appear at a certain frequency may not appear at different frequency. Hyperdetailed at low freq but warm at high freq, or something like that ... I believe we need to test across the entire audio spectrum to establish if it is really hyperdetailed or not.

I've seen so many people buy this speaker only to have it changed in a few weeks or months because of some characteristic that was not previously heard on their previous speakers. So, to minimize the replace speakers cycle and to establish hyperdetail we need to go through an exercise of listening across the entire audio spectrum with measuring instruments or not. A (reference) and B (subject) comparison. Of course we need a good test cd.

[aHobbit]

Not really, it might not even be part of the sound mix at all, and the sound engineers probably don't
want you to hear it at all.  Maybe the song was recorded late at night and the howl of a dog (or is it a wolf?)
near the studio unintentionally got into the recording...  Whatever it is, that's the problem with
analytical/hyperdetailed speakers.  Some 'trains', 'animals' and other things in the background can get into
the recording and be very audible in some analytical/hyperdetailed speakers but in some speakers,
they may not be audible at all.

No, you should not use this as benchmark to test  the ability of the player, amp or speakers.  
It's used to test a 'subjective' speaker trait: 'analytical/hyperdetailed' in which there is  
no standardized/objective measurement.  Analytical/hyperdetailed does not necessarily mean
'accurate' since some analytical/hyperdetailed speakers can sound 'bright' (another 'subjective term')
because of a skewed frequency response especially in the low frequencies.

  Kevlar

You have an interesting track! I am interested to have a copy of the track so I can test my speaker set. Can you lend me a copy?

[Kevlar]

It's very difficult to say that you have a hyperdetailed speaker because the sounds that may appear at a certain frequency may not appear at different frequency. Hyperdetailed at low freq but warm at high freq, or something like that ... I believe we need to test across the entire audio spectrum to establish if it is really hyperdetailed or not.

I've seen so many people buy this speaker only to have it changed in a few weeks or months because of some characteristic that was not previously heard on their previous speakers. So, to minimize the replace speakers cycle and to establish hyperdetail we need to go through an exercise of listening across the entire audio spectrum with measuring instruments or not. A (reference) and B (subject) comparison. Of course we need a good test cd.

You are right, its difficult to say what is 'hyperdetailed' or not because you and I have different definitions
of this 'subjective' term.  In general however, this subjective speaker trait refers to very high detail in
the mid to upper range frequencies because it is where the ear is most sensitive.  Not so much for bass.

- Kevlar  

[jerix]

You have an interesting track! I am interested to have a copy of the track so I can test my speaker set. Can you lend me a copy?

Yeah!  all the while i thought that the howling was intentionally placed. So i think the recording studio has leaks. Does the hearing or not hearing the alleged howling in the background really depends on whether or not the speaker has hyper detail qualities? How about matter about the sensitivity of the speaker?  ;)l

[av_phile1]

Interesting discussion.  There's also such a thing as a revealing system or speakers.  I hope we don't confuse that with a "hyperdetailed" speaker.   I really have no handle on what is "hyperdetailed" expect to assume it gives more detail than is necessarily found in the source material. 

A revealing speaker is one that exposes certain musical or performance details that are absent or only vaguely hinted at in another speaker that is not as revealing.  Accuracy and transparency will determine a revealing speaker to a large extent.  But sometimes, the psycho-accoustic phenomenon called MASKING can do the same.  The fewer stronger frequencies that mask other frequencies, the more detailed the impression is for frequencies that were not masked. 

In the case of the howling CD, a revealing speaker might easily expose that.  In the same way that faint triangles not heard in one speaker is revealed in another speaker.  Or even faint coughng in the audience in a live classical performance can be heard more loudly in a revealing speaker.   But I have to say that a bump at certain frequencies between 2k and 5k can easily reveal more details of an instrument playing at those frequences  than a speaker that is totally flat at that same range.  Similarly, a speaker with a suck out or valley at the lows can make the higher frequencies relatively more emphasized to give it more detail than one that is flat.   MASKING in complex musical signals can make mid frequency details more pronounced in a speaker that exhibits low frequency dips reducing the incidence of stronger low frequency signals masking weaker signals. 

My point is, while listening will tell you a speaker's subjective qualities, you will have to graph the frequency response curve of a speaker to really assess its qualities more objectively, whether it has peaks at certain points to give it more details or suckouts in some other parts where frequencies tend to sound stronger so as to lessen the masking effect.  Most speaker specfications are totally useless and meaningless.  A response of 30hz to 18khz with a deviation of + or - 3db won't tell the complete picture.   That same spec can be had in another speaker that can  completely sound different. That's because one speaker can be dipping -3db at 2khz while the other is peaking +3db in the same point.  But they both have the same + or - 3 db deviation accross the same range.   To get the complete picture, nothing less than a plotted response graph will do. Many speakers with about the same 30hz to 22khz +-3db responses have entirely dissimilar response curves.    Just a thought.

[aHobbit]

Yeah!  all the while i thought that the howling was intentionally placed. Does the hearing or not hearing the alleged howling in the background really depends on whether or not the speaker has hyper detail qualities? How about matter about the sensitivity of the speaker?  ;)l

he he he      Actually, am not after any trait of the speaker - just want to hear that howling!!!     

Maybe kevlar shud re-title the thread:
How analytical/hyperdetailed is your speaker in revealing the 60-second howl? 

Iba kasi kutob ko eh . . . baka may sub-material embedded sa music - ala "chant" ng dark forces 

[odyopayl]

Sometimes what you hear in your speakers depends on your player, amplifier etch. Had a different test using "Percussion Fantasia" album with title zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. If you can hear the zzzzzzzzzz in normal listening level you might have a good player & amplifier. Can't recognized it using different Solid state amp even digital amp (in normal listening level) but with the 2a3 tube amp very revealing!. Just share my experience, might be related to "analytical/hyperdetailed ".

[Kevlar]

he he he      Actually, am not after any trait of the speaker - just want to hear that howling!!!     

Maybe kevlar shud re-title the thread:
How analytical/hyperdetailed is your speaker in revealing the 60-second howl? 

Iba kasi kutob ko eh . . . baka may sub-material embedded sa music - ala "chant" ng dark forces 

aHobbit,

It's not a 60-second howl.  It's really a short one, like a few seconds or so but it is repeated within
the body of the song and again, towards the end.  Much like a dog/wolf (or is it a human howl?). 
I think it's some midrange frequency detail.  I tested the track to many speakers. Some reproduce
it audibly well, some barely audibly, and some, inaudible at all.  

Anyway, for all of you who want to hear it, I think the CD is available at about P250 in most music
stores.  Bootlegs abound but I don't know if the howls are as audible in those illegal copies as in the original.
The track ('The Promise') also has some strong bass lines which can be used to evaluate bass reproduction.  
It goes from low, to lower to lowest.  In most speakers, only the first two are audible, the lowest being barely
audible or not audible at all.  In others, all three are equally audible to the same degree.  Still in other speakers,
all you hear is loud boom! boom! boom! (no bass definition at all). 

- Kevlar

[ricky]

based on what i heard when i played it,the howling is really part of the recording parang background effects, esp if you turn the volume up its very distinct.I dont think there's any special thing about how good or bad the speaker is.It is very audible kasi even doon sa portable cd player sa kitchen e meron kaya lang not so detailed.and odyopayl is right,dami dapat iconsider like the cd,the player,the amp,the processor,the cables/interconnects,the power source etc.Ill try tom sa car cd kung may howling pa din 

[john5479]

I think its intentional, I listened to the track using some very good earplugs and its sounds distinct. I don't think
the recording engineers missed hearing this part (the howling) or it was accidental. Try fiddling with an equalizer highlight the midband frequency and lessen the bass, you can actually hear the howling better.

[edboy7]

i have When in Rome cd which has two remixed versions of "The Promise" but havnt done critcal listening while playing it coz i enjoy it a lot maybe ...yeah the first few bars could really give ur woofers a workout ...drums machines galore yata un...but im sure those howling effects is not a product of poor room acoustics or recording and home recording is not yet available  then
...if you heard it 3 times(start,middle,end)...im positive that is intentional.. just my thoughts

[bruno]

Reviewers use the term "detailed" as a euphemism for a bright speaker.

[ricky]

Reviewers use the term "detailed" as a euphemism for a bright speaker.

detailed as a euphemism? are bright speakers that unpleasant?

[Kevlar]

...if you heard it 3 times(start,middle,end)...im positive that is intentional.. just my thoughts

Actually, I hear the 'howl' 4 times in the track 'The Promise'.
For the benefit of those who want to try it out, here are the
estimated times into the playback when you hear them:

1) 6-8 seconds into the intro of the song (least audible)
2) 14-16 seconds into the intro of the song (most audible)
3) 2 min, 25sec - 2 min, 27sec into the song (audible)
4) 2 min, 33sec - 2 min, 35sec into the song (more audible)

Sorry for the adjectives, I didn't measure with an SPL meter.
Incidentally, these 4 occurrences of the 'howl' which goes
like, 'hooooooo!' in a rising-falling intonation, are all heard
in the 'quiter' passages of the song where in there is no vocals
and only the piano is playing and the bass tones have subsided.

It is also worthy to note that the gap between the first 2 occurrences
(1 & 2) is 8 seconds and the next 2 occurrences (3 & 4) is also 8 seconds.
I should emphasize that the howls are not 2 seconds long.  They are about
only 1 second long but I gave 2-second ranges to ensure you won't miss
them.

As I mentioned, many speakers I've tested using the track are able
to reproduce the 'howls' to varying degrees.  Some barely audibly, others
quite audible and still others, not audible at all.  Also, some speakers can
only reproduce the loudest of the 4 occurences, some 2 out of 4, some
3 out of 4, and some, all 4, albeit, not at the same audibility level.

- Kevlar

[bumblebee]

detailed as a euphemism? are bright speakers that unpleasant?

They can be. I listened to the MS914 in 5th Ave, Park Square 1 mated w/ a bright sounding amp. Masakit talaga sa tenga.

[ricky]

ok

[Kevlar]

I don't think 'bright' speakers or speakers with high treble levels
(and consequently high treble detail/[I prefer to call it 'glare'])
will be able to reproduce the howl well, which is a midrange
detail.

I also don't think speakers with high bass levels, especially
those in the midbass, will be able to reveal the howling detail
as high midbass levels can easily mask the howls. 

Also, you will note that some headphones/earphones
reproduce this low level detail (howl) whilst some loudspeakers
do not.

I'd like to reiterate that I am not discriminating between speakers
or implying that only good speakers should be able to reproduce the howl
or that bad speakers will not be able to reproduce the howls at all.
B&W's P600,000++/pair Nautilus 801 speakers actually don't reproduce
any howls at all, mind you.  I still have to test the track to Revel Salons
(another P600,000++/pair speakers) to see if I hear any audible howls.

Again, I'd like to emphasize that this test should not be used to
gauge speaker performance or discriminate between them.
It's just an arbitrary grouping of analytical or hyperdetailed speakers,
(which some audiophiles hate and some like) using the track I suggested
('The Promise').  

  Kevlar

[aHobbit]

.I'd like to reiterate that I am not discriminating between speakers
or implying that only good speakers should be able to reproduce the howl
or that bad speakers will not be able to reproduce the howls at all.
B&W's P600,000++/pair Nautilus 801 speakers actually don't reproduce
any howls at all, mind you.  I still have to test the track to Revel Salons
(another P600,000++/pair speakers) to see if I hear any audible howls.
.

As usual, price is not an indicator of performance!     

It is just saying some low-cost speaker (or any audio gear for that matter) can easily compete with pricier speaker (or any audio gear for that matter) in performance. Personally have no inclination that because so so speaker is of so much is a good-performing speaker!