Author Topic: Separate Amplifier HT  (Read 3076 times)

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Offline atomicat10

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Separate Amplifier HT
« on: Jan 21, 2006 at 12:59 AM »
Since I have read somewhere that most AVRs do not really produce equal output on all channels, what will happen if I opt to use three generic (sakura 387a) amplifiers and hook the dvd player's 5.1 analog out to the sakura's front inputs(250w each)?

Ex. 5.1 analog fronts connected to one 387a(main in, 250w), rears connected to another 387a (main in, 250w) center out split to two then connected to another 387a (main in, 250w) to output to two front center speakers  . Then, use at least two subs or three.

Will this setup mean 250w equal  output on all channels(except maybe sa subwoofer)?

Offline ricky

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #1 on: Jan 21, 2006 at 01:50 AM »
GEE WIZ, why would you do this set-up? are you going to put up a movie house? ;D why not just get a decent pre/pro+power amp combo instead if you want to produce equal outputs on all channels ;D ;D ;D

Offline synchro_01

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #2 on: Jan 21, 2006 at 10:36 AM »
i doubt it very much that the Sakura can put out a healthy 250 watts per channel to begin with. 
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Offline atomicat10

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #3 on: Jan 21, 2006 at 08:43 PM »
I have an AVR and sad to say bitin ako sa rears and center output that's why I'm asking about this option since three sakuras would only cost <10K , I don't know how much a decent pre/pro+power amp combo costs (hell I don't even know what that is) and about the power of the Sakura even if it does not reach 250w, I'm sure it can provide 150watts easy (using fronts channel) since I have seen this unit run a mobile speaker with no problems. I haven't seen a dedicated AVR with this much power at less than 10K and about the moviehouse issue...as they say in HT, it's better to have problems with too much power than the lack of it, tutal sa price na 10 thou with a system that can deliver 250 watts on all channels(except LFE) I think it's logical although not economical (Meralco)   

Offline john5479

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #4 on: Jan 21, 2006 at 09:55 PM »
you're problem with this setup is calibrating the volume properly for all channels. the setup may be cheap but makes things more complicated.

Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #5 on: Jan 22, 2006 at 01:44 PM »
You might want to get one decent AVR that has a total control of the whole audio system, because it is hard to timbre match all speaker system with different integrated amps. if budget allows might want to get a decoder processor and a power amps for each dedicated power (eg. buy one 2nd hand yamaha DD/DTS avr with all channels pre-out then connect each of them to a konzert power plant amp like K5 at 500Wpc or K10 at 1000Wwpc) if you do this you will have one hell of a killer setup. but????? also take note of the power supply coz it will cost you around 1KVA of power.   
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Offline atomicat10

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #6 on: Jan 22, 2006 at 02:08 PM »
Wala kasing pre-outs ung AVR ko and I never thought I would need a use for them. Guess I was wrong.

Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #7 on: Jan 22, 2006 at 03:03 PM »
Wala kasing pre-outs ung AVR ko and I never thought I would need a use for them. Guess I was wrong.

by the way, some DVD players that has a built in DD or DTS decoder they have a seperate pre channel out (Left/Right/Center/Surr. out) you can connect them directly into a power amp, but be sure that the power amp. you will buy has a volume control. so you can adjust the output of your speakers... 
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Offline atomicat10

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #8 on: Jan 22, 2006 at 03:26 PM »
That's what I have kaya malakas loob ko hindi na padaanin sa AVR ko kasi kaya naman ng DVD player mag decode ng DTS on its own. I will use the Sakura as a power amp coz I heard na ung main channels nya ( which will be the ones I will use) is real powerful and ok pang HT and medyo mura lang sya and easier to dispose separately.

The only thing I might miss will be DTS ES 6.1 discrete which I enjoyed when viewing Seven platinum series. Kahit yung policemen sa choppers naririnig ko sa rear center ko.

Are there 6 channel power amps na below 10 thou?

Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #9 on: Jan 22, 2006 at 10:39 PM »
That's what I have kaya malakas loob ko hindi na padaanin sa AVR ko kasi kaya naman ng DVD player mag decode ng DTS on its own. I will use the Sakura as a power amp coz I heard na ung main channels nya ( which will be the ones I will use) is real powerful and ok pang HT and medyo mura lang sya and easier to dispose separately.

The only thing I might miss will be DTS ES 6.1 discrete which I enjoyed when viewing Seven platinum series. Kahit yung policemen sa choppers naririnig ko sa rear center ko.

Are there 6 channel power amps na below 10 thou?

Wala yatang descrete 6 channel amp. pero meron below 10T na professional stereo power amp. Meron din 5ch input integrated amp. yung KonZert 600R may 5.1 input yun at 100Wpc 4,8T lang  ;D
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Offline whipsaw

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #10 on: Jan 23, 2006 at 12:01 PM »
hey fellas

seems i can try this. i have a 6 channel RANE MA6 (100wpc), and my dvd has separate outputs for ht. this must be what you mean oweidah.

tks

whip

Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #11 on: Jan 23, 2006 at 03:33 PM »
hey fellas

seems i can try this. i have a 6 channel RANE MA6 (100wpc), and my dvd has separate outputs for ht. this must be what you mean oweidah.

tks

whip

Connect your DVD output L/C/R/SR/SL/SW to your 6 channel power amp. but be sure your power amp has a potentiometer or volume control.  :)
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Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #12 on: Jan 24, 2006 at 12:41 PM »
Why do you need equal 250w per channel?

I use a 7.1 HK receiver with all channels driven amp (almost 50 lbs)  and I feel that most of the amp power that they put into the 4 surrounds go to  waste when you use it for HT. Their maximum potential barely gets utilized..at all.

If you are into multi channel music, then thats a different case.

Offline atomicat10

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #13 on: Jan 24, 2006 at 09:37 PM »
Thanks. I'm sober now.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #14 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 10:39 AM »
I have an AVR and sad to say bitin ako sa rears and center output that's why I'm asking about this option since three sakuras would only cost <10K , I don't know how much a decent pre/pro+power amp combo costs (hell I don't even know what that is) and about the power of the Sakura even if it does not reach 250w, I'm sure it can provide 150watts easy (using fronts channel) since I have seen this unit run a mobile speaker with no problems. I haven't seen a dedicated AVR with this much power at less than 10K and about the moviehouse issue...as they say in HT, it's better to have problems with too much power than the lack of it, tutal sa price na 10 thou with a system that can deliver 250 watts on all channels(except LFE) I think it's logical although not economical (Meralco)   

The three stereo sakuras costing 10K total would give you 6 channels of equal amplification.  Now whether each channel delivers true 250watts RMS, I cannot comment on.  I am inclined to think they don't.  But at least you'd get equal power on all channels. 

Is this necessary in HT?  Unless you have an AVR that clips on the center and surrounds at your preferred listening volume, there are really very few titles that require high power at the back.   Personally, I prefer equal power on all channels when I decided to go multichannel.  Just in case the title I get demands it.  And also, since I listen to multichannel music, that's the preferred configuration, as Matzter hinted.

Are there 6 channel power amps na below 10 thou?

None in one box at that price.  So your 3 stereo power amp solution would seem to be the most cost effective option in that direction. 

If your DVD player has output level control that goes all the way down to silence, that can serve as your volume control.  I think most generic players have this facility.

If you DVD player has individual channel delay and volume adjustments, which some branded players do, that should give you the flexibility to calibrate your speakers relative to your  listening position.  Without this, you will really have to position your listening position equidistant to each speaker.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006 at 10:51 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline atomicat10

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #15 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 11:20 AM »
The LG dvd player I have has enough speaker setup settings you have mentioned including size distance and volume.

Ok kaya ang result ng ganitong setup?

Ps.

Sir the Sakura 387a is 5.1 channel amp. but I'm planning to use only the main channels which outputs at least 200W (250W according to the specs) meaning if I decide to split the channel outs of the dvd 5.1 source and use it to the remaining amp inputs, it would be a very flexible albeit complicated setup.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006 at 11:26 AM by atomicat10 »

Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #16 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 11:34 AM »
i doubt it very much that the Sakura can put out a healthy 250 watts per channel to begin with.

I looked at the sakura & lifted it when I was in raon. That amp is even lighter than 75-100wpc Yamahas, I also doubt if it really gives 250w.

Offline atomicat10

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #17 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 11:58 AM »
I know that weight has weight(gulo no?) when it comes to output because of the transformer but there are exceptions to this rule. I have tested this hooked to a mobile speaker ( a huge motherf*r) and it had no problems driving it. If you go to the Sakura thread all haters even admitted to expect the power from this model and their only problem with the model is (aside from its cheap) it does not output equally to all channels but Sakura was honest with their specs so why blame them.  Unlike branded Avr's na equal daw pero di naman, cmon this  issue has already been discussed all over the net and the consensus was that if you want power go for the separates, if you want convenience go to dedicated.

The problem with me is that I can't afford a newer branded AVR na tingin ko mabibitin lang rin ako in the end and the fact that my viewing room is not that big but it aint small neither. peace.

« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006 at 12:05 PM by atomicat10 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #18 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 03:10 PM »
The LG dvd player I have has enough speaker setup settings you have mentioned including size distance and volume.

Ok kaya ang result ng ganitong setup?

Ps.

Sir the Sakura 387a is 5.1 channel amp. but I'm planning to use only the main channels which outputs at least 200W (250W according to the specs) meaning if I decide to split the channel outs of the dvd 5.1 source and use it to the remaining amp inputs, it would be a very flexible albeit complicated setup.

So if the LG player has those features, you can connect it directly to 5 discrete power amps.   But it seems the Sakura model you have in mind is not a power amp but an integrated amp, right?  Meaning it has its own volume/tone controls? 

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #19 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 03:23 PM »
I know that weight has weight(gulo no?) when it comes to output because of the transformer but there are exceptions to this rule. I have tested this hooked to a mobile speaker ( a huge motherf*r) and it had no problems driving it. If you go to the Sakura thread all haters even admitted to expect the power from this model and their only problem with the model is (aside from its cheap) it does not output equally to all channels but Sakura was honest with their specs so why blame them.  Unlike branded Avr's na equal daw pero di naman, cmon this  issue has already been discussed all over the net and the consensus was that if you want power go for the separates, if you want convenience go to dedicated.

In general, the weight of an amplifier has a direct bearing on its ability to deliver the power it promises.  There are exceptions, notably from Carver, but quite few.  I have been lifting amps over the last 30 years and I have to say, lifting a true 250watt RMS stereo power amp is no laughing matter.  What more for a 5 channel power amp.  Just to give you an idea, the older Aragon 8008X5  5-channel 200watt RMS/ch power amp requires roller casters to push it in place in a rackshelf.  It weighs in excess of 100 lbs.   ;D  There are certain laws of physics that are inescapable.  Like if you want to give out more power, you just gotta have bigger trannies to output the needed current.  As well as larger heavier filter caps and heavier chasis to support them. 

But there's another way to find out.  Just bear in mind that almost all commercial amps are class AB types which have an efficiency of about 40% to 50%.  That means, they can only convert half or less of the electrical power input to usefull electric signal to drive the speakers they expect.  The rest are dissipated as heat.  So for a stereo amp, for example,  to deliver on its promise of 250w RMS continuous per channel without headroom, that means its maximum electrical power should be rated at least 1000 watts or 1.0 kva or more.  Check if the Sakura amp has power consumption rating in this magnitude.  Many commercial 5.1 amps and receivers advertised as having at 100watts RMS per channel  only have a revealing power consumption of 500 watts or less.  ALso, make sure the power rating is given in RMS or average continuous with all channels driven or with both chanels driven in the case of stereo, at full bandwidth (20hz to 20khz) at a specified THD level into an 8-ohm load. 

By the way, the Aragon example above, if I recall right, has a power consumption rating of 2.5KVA.  It advises the buyer to have a dedicated power outlet with dedicated fuse box just for the amp.   ;D

Quote
The problem with me is that I can't afford a newer branded AVR na tingin ko mabibitin lang rin ako in the end and the fact that my viewing room is not that big but it aint small neither. peace.

I really couldn't care less about the promised power rating of the Sakura.  But I see no problem with the configuration you plan to use.  Complicated, true,  but it will work and can give you the pleasures of listening in HT on gears costing 10 times more, provided your player does a good job of a preamp and decoder.

« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006 at 03:57 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Separate Amplifier HT
« Reply #20 on: Jan 25, 2006 at 07:11 PM »
Sir av_phile1 is true, but the weight vs. the ability to deliver power is not quite justified, as you can see below the 2 following models of QSC power amps. are equal with weight but unequal on power. todays technology have the ability to compact a power house of power amp.     

The PowerLight 2 Series - model PL 236A rated at 725Wpc stereo, 8 ohms FTC 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.05% THD.
The weight : 21 lb (9.5 kg) net

vs.

The PowerLight 2 Series - model PL 218A rated at 310Wpc stereo, 8 ohms FTC 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.05% THD.
The weight : 21 lb (9.5 kg) net

as you see not all high power amp can be judge on their heavy weight. but it is the ability to integrate a circuit to produce the intended power.

by the way these are professional audio power amps.

 :) 

« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006 at 07:21 PM by hanns1976 »
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