Topic: Mga matitinong dai-ichi speakers of today & John...

[hattori_hanzo]

Guys here are some dai-ichi speakers that I personaly auditioned when I was hunting for a speakers system. hope this help you guys... 

EFD speakers - best of all dai-ichi speakers but a bit pricey. clarity and power are achive by dai-ichi with these speakers.



Euros 8 & 6 - fairly priced good performance speaker.



Euros 5 - not yet available, so medyo exempted to. 



PL - medyo bitin nga lang ang subwoofer nito. pero ganda ng tunog nung tower when paired with amx tube na auditioned ko to sa phasetron, park square 1, makati.



DTX 4.xx series subwoofers - good for any kind of room, tight followed by a soft bass.



DTX 6.xx series subwoofers - good for any kind of room, but tend to become muffled when drived at high SPL.



BP series subwoofer - powerful and big, but then again due to its design (back ported bandpass), tend to become boomy when cornered.   





~ JOHN OF THE DAI-ICHI MEGAMALL ~

Tama pala si qguy about "John" of Dai-ichi megamall. if you dont have any idea on speakers please dont ask this guy, I had a wrong impression on him, yung product knowledge niya about speakers dont just extend there kahit sa amp ay "NO-NO" rin pala siya.

qguy had a difficult time with him when asking about magnetic shielding of speakers. he replied qguy... "rubber lang ang ginagamit nila for magnetic shielding" and again asked by qguy about using a 8" woofer for center again he replied... "sino gumagamit ng 8" sa center ngo ngo yun" and so goes the story of "John" of Dai-ichi megamall. for some other reasons (sales) I defended him and telling guys to give him a break and be friend with him, but guess what? Now! im pulling out my support on him (but not Dai-ichi products) only Mr. John...

My reason? this is why...

been there recently and asked John...

"John diba nasa 6 ohms ang rating ng Euros 8?" he then replied "yes boss" I told him "ano bang ginagamit mong impedance switch ng yamaha AVR nyo" he then replied "8 ohms min sir" I told him "bakit 8 ohms min ang gamitin mo, diba dapat 6 ohms min, hindi ba burden sa Yamaha avr yung 8ohms min setting then feeding it with 6 ohms towers paano kung nasa operation na yung AVR diba variable na yun operation hindi ba masisira yung yamaha?" he then replied "sir kasi mabubugbog yung speakers namin lalo pag araw araw ginagamit kasi tumataas yung impedance nang speakers pag ginagamit, umaabot ng 16 to 32ohms yun pag tumutunog na" then I was surprised and replied "ha? ganun ba tumataas ba hanggang 16 to 32ohms yung 6 ohms kaya sineset nyo yung avr ng 8ohms min?" he then replied with proud accent "yes sir!"...

and so goes on with the story of John...

pag labas ko ng showroom, natawa tuloy ako at i-iling-iling...   

[bumblebee]

It's possible that the speakers go as high as 16-32. And it is recommended (at least by the audioholics guys) to set the avr's impedance to 8 ohms for better dynamics, fidelity, etc.

[hattori_hanzo]

It's possible that the speakers go as high as 16-32. And it is recommended (at least by the audioholics guys) to set the avr's impedance to 8 ohms for better dynamics, fidelity, etc.

so you mean speakers impedances are variable and can go as high as 32ohms on operation? not the other way around? so dapat palang tawagin genius tong so John...

so those impedance switches at the back of Yamaha's AVR's has no reason at all. question lang, bakit kaya nila nilagay yun? wala lang pang dagdag presyo? or... maybe its there to protect the speaker's or the amp its self, meron kasing indicated instruction sa likod ng yamaha AVR and I was told that those impedance switch are for the protection of the AVR's amp section, protection from a posible dangerous loads such as 6 ohms or lower. kung baga safety switch, diba if we load a 4 ohms speaker sa amp umiinit ito ng husto compare sa 8 ohms load? baka dahil ciguro sa ganito situation kaya sila nag lagay ng ganitong switch, ano ho sa palagay nyo sir guru bumblebee? 

saka yung amps impedance na 8ohms pala sa has better dynamics, fidelity, etc. compare sa 4ohms ganun ba?...kasi I used to load a professional QSX MX series power amps as low as 2 ohms loads (6 voice of theater JBL's) and compare it with a 8 ohms loads using  only 2 theater JBL's. and for me theres no difference at all.... paki explain nga po further sir bumblebee kung bakit? at kung totoo yung sinasabi ng mga taga audioholics guys...   

[bumblebee]

Here.

[hattori_hanzo]

galing pala ng audioholics ano? ayon sa kanila parang lumalabas nilagay lang ng yamaha yung switch for UL requirement...

Editorial Note about the Impedance Selector Switch
 
"I recommend the "Minimum 8-ohms" setting even for 4-ohm speakers of moderate efficiency (>89dB SPL). Yamaha includes a" 6-ohm" setting to satisfy UL heat dissipation requirements when driving 4-ohm loads, as well as easing consumer concerns about driving low impedance loads. These switches step down voltage feed to the power sections which can limit dynamics and overall fidelity. My advice is to keep the switch set to "Minimum 8-ohms" regardless of the impedance of your speakers and ensure proper ventilation of the Receiver.  To illustrate this point further, I have tabulated my measured differences between the 8-ohm and 6-ohm setting for driving 8-ohm and 4-ohm loads.

8 Ohm Setting
134wpc into an 8-ohm load @ 0.1% THD
210wpc into a 4-ohm load @ 0.1% THD

6 Ohm Setting
95wpc into an 8-ohm load @ 0.1% THD
180wpc into a 4-ohm load @ 0.1% THD
"

galing ng audiholics ano? dapat ciguro magusap ang audioholics at ang yamaha to avoid confusion sa mga end user ng product nila, iba kasi pagkakaintindi ko rito (cant compare with professional amp though) all the while kala ko yung switch na yun is to prevent the damage. yun pala for UL purposes lang "heat dissipation", after which kung susundin mo itong instruction nila (see photo below) will limit the dyamics and overall fidelity.

thanks sir guru bumblebee... naliwanagan na po ako "ALIEN!" "ALIEN!"...



 

 

[hattori_hanzo]

hindi ako masyado na convince ng audioholics so I made my own testing using an analog DON - NSF temp reader and measured the heat dissipation of the Yamaha amp and heres my actual reading...

impedance switch set to:
8 ohms - heat measurement 93 deg F.
4 ohms - heat measurement 90 deg F.

setting on 9'oclock volume pot and tone bypass, using 6 ohms speakers (2 towers, 1 center, 2 surrounds) 4 hours of HT and music (2 hours on each impedance switch setting with one hour interval).

based on my expirience on audio gears the cooler the amp the better it will produce audio freq. and when on operation, speaker impedance loads will be variable lower.

[aHobbit]

galing pala ng audioholics ano? ayon sa kanila parang lumalabas nilagay lang ng yamaha yung switch for UL requirement...

Editorial Note about the Impedance Selector Switch
 
"I recommend the "Minimum 8-ohms" setting even for 4-ohm speakers of moderate efficiency (>89dB SPL). Yamaha includes a" 6-ohm" setting to satisfy UL heat dissipation requirements when driving 4-ohm loads, as well as easing consumer concerns about driving low impedance loads. These switches step down voltage feed to the power sections which can limit dynamics and overall fidelity. My advice is to keep the switch set to "Minimum 8-ohms" regardless of the impedance of your speakers and ensure proper ventilation of the Receiver.  To illustrate this point further, I have tabulated my measured differences between the 8-ohm and 6-ohm setting for driving 8-ohm and 4-ohm loads.

8 Ohm Setting
134wpc into an 8-ohm load @ 0.1% THD
210wpc into a 4-ohm load @ 0.1% THD

6 Ohm Setting
95wpc into an 8-ohm load @ 0.1% THD
180wpc into a 4-ohm load @ 0.1% THD
"

galing ng audiholics ano? dapat ciguro magusap ang audioholics at ang yamaha to avoid confusion sa mga end user ng product nila, iba kasi pagkakaintindi ko rito (cant compare with professional amp though) all the while kala ko yung switch na yun is to prevent the damage. yun pala for UL purposes lang "heat dissipation", after which kung susundin mo itong instruction nila (see photo below) will limit the dyamics and overall fidelity.

thanks sir guru bumblebee... naliwanagan na po ako "ALIEN!" "ALIEN!"...



 

 

Way back in Yamaha thread, I personnaly advised to have the impedance switch to 8ohm regardless of speaker impedance.

As a general rule, as  far as Yamaha is concerned, the caution should be standard in their boxes to protect the receiver and to protect them from any unfounded complaint of amp abuse of users who do not have technical grasp of how amp-speaker behave. kung rakrakan lang naman ang gamit ng AVR, better to switch it to recommended impedance load. For a typical audiophile     listening, leave imp switch untouched.

Speakers only have average impedance - not ruler flat. I really dont know if John really knew what he is talking about. But his declaration is somehow has technical backing. I remember a post somewhere in this forum when he laughs at his friend who uses an electrical wire for a speaker cable, only to admit later that he might be laughing off to his own ignorance. I have been there too,  having so many unfounded 'myths' in audio. Copper when heated changes its characteristic impedance. Have not dealt into the details of this. Music into the speaker make this heating - and contributes the most in a systems total distortion - so forget about distortion in the amplifier section (1% is not so much to a lot into speakers - much so with .1 or .05% diff    )

With inefficient speakers, the like of Dai ichi at 86dB, this dilemna is even more compounded. That's why I have a bias toward high sensitivity- but as I said on other occasions, it is always a compromise on the sound - which compromise is best for you, go for it, and dont have the inkling that your compromise is acceptable to other audiophile being.

If I am John, I would have switched the amp to 4 ohms, basta at the end of the day, nabili yung amp and/or speaker ng customer.       . They are there to make their products sell. If you are an audiophile, you should be there after you have done your assignment of how to validate their claims.

[aHobbit]

hindi ako masyado na convince ng audioholics so I made my own testing using an analog DON - NSF temp reader and measured the heat dissipation of the Yamaha amp and heres my actual reading...

impedance switch set to:
8 ohms - heat measurement 93 deg F.
4 ohms - heat measurement 90 deg F.

setting on 9'oclock volume pot and tone bypass, using 6 ohms speakers (2 towers, 1 center, 2 surrounds) 4 hours of HT and music (2 hours on each impedance switch setting with one hour interval).

based on my expirience on audio gears the cooler the amp the better it will produce audio freq. and when on operation, speaker impedance loads will be variable lower.

There should be no difference at all at this setting, if you use the same speaker. The issue of imp switch will only become evident if you hit the full rating capability of the amp, more so if you overdrive them. Using a 6ohm speaker and overdrive your amp, at impedance setting of 8 ohms will fry your amp  . At impedance setting of 4 ohm, will fry your speaker    . Yamaha wanted to fry your speaker first, and not their amp. So which one do you love best?     

[hattori_hanzo]

There should be no difference at all at this setting, if you use the same speaker. The issue of imp switch will only become evident if you hit the full rating capability of the amp, more so if you overdrive them. Using a 6ohm speaker and overdrive your amp, at impedance setting of 8 ohms will fry your amp  . At impedance setting of 4 ohm, will fry your speaker    . Yamaha wanted to fry your speaker first, and not their amp. So which one do you love best?     

Sir, so its best to use the 4 ohms impedance switch? rather than the 8ohms, when using a 6 ohms speaker load. much secured if the amp is cooler.

 

[hattori_hanzo]

"kung rakrakan lang naman ang gamit ng AVR, better to switch it to recommended impedance load. For a typical audiophile     listening, leave imp switch untouched.

so sir according to you kung pang "audiophile listening" is much better to leave the switch untouch (case of yamaha 8ohms setting) kahit ano pang load ng speakers ang gamitin mo,.... then pag bugbugan naman its better to follow the manufacturers recommended impedance load?  ....

hindi ba burden on both end yun (speakers and AVR) ? meron bang noticable difference on over-all audible performance pag nag toggle ka sa impedance switch for what is best for both gears (speakers and AVR)? katulad ng sinasabi ng audioholics na nababawasan daw ang dynamics and overall fidelity.

[keema]

sir, question din po..kung 6ohms yung speakers ok lang kung sa 4ohms ko switch yung sa avr? or okay lang sa 8ohms? salamat...

[JojoD818]

so tama ba si Mr. John o hindi? 

[oweidah]

sirs, di ba may yamaha avr owner's manual?
Connections section / impedance selector switch page

[hattori_hanzo]

Sir keema,

well according to ahobbit and audioholics kung ittranslate mo sa tagalog, pag audiophile listening daw eh gamitin mo ang 8 ohms switch para daw ma retain ang dyamics at overall fidelity kahit mainit ito sa amp dapat lang daw may tamang ventilation, at pag ka naman gaguhan ng pag gamit ng gears eh sundin mo daw ung instruction ng yamaha. kung 6 ohms or less ang gamit mong speakers gamitin mo ang 4 ohms switch dahil ito ang recommended ng yamaha mas safer daw kaya lang mawawalan ng dyamic at fidelity. tama ba ako? 

Sir JojoD818,

kung kay John lang naman, magtatanong nalang ako sa taga Yamaha mismo at sa hotline ng Dai-ichi, hindi pa rin ako kumbinsi kay John. maraming sablay yun. hehehe! isipin mo goma ang ginagamit sa magnetic shielding. at speakers na 6 ohms pag tumutunog umaabot ng 32ohms? hek!

Sir oweidaw,
 
mukha nga mas marurunong pa tong mga nag sasabi about sa impedance switch mukhang mas may alam mismo kaysa sa yamaha, isipin mo naka indicate na ang instruction ng manufacturer for safer use, pero para sa kanila best pa rin yung nirerecommend nila. tigas ng ulo hehehe!

[arthurallanj]

With inefficient speakers, the like of Dai ichi at 86dB

Sir AHobbit, just wanna know kung what model you're referring to. Please enlighten me. The Daiichi speaker that I have or have seen which has the least sensitivity is the Euros 8 which is rated at 88 dB. Thank you sir. Have a nice day. 

[bumblebee]

Acoustic Energy Aegis 1's (nominal 8 Ohm) impedance curve according to Stereophile.



Wharfedale 9.1's (nominal 6 Ohm) impedance curve according to Stereophile.



Epos M5's (nominal 4 Ohm) impedance curve according to Stereophile.

[arthurallanj]

Tama pala si qguy about "John" of Dai-ichi megamall. if you dont have any idea on speakers please dont ask this guy, I had a wrong impression on him, yung product knowledge niya about speakers dont just extend there kahit sa amp ay "NO-NO" rin pala siya.

qguy had a difficult time with him when asking about magnetic shielding of speakers. he replied qguy... "rubber lang ang ginagamit nila for magnetic shielding" and again asked by qguy about using a 8" woofer for center again he replied... "sino gumagamit ng 8" sa center ngo ngo yun" and so goes the story of "John" of Dai-ichi megamall. for some other reasons (sales) I defended him and telling guys to give him a break and be friend with him, but guess what? Now! im pulling out my support on him (but not Dai-ichi products) only Mr. John...

My reason? this is why...

been there recently and asked John...

"John diba nasa 6 ohms ang rating ng Euros 8?" he then replied "yes boss" I told him "ano bang ginagamit mong impedance switch ng yamaha AVR nyo" he then replied "8 ohms min sir" I told him "bakit 8 ohms min ang gamitin mo, diba dapat 6 ohms min, hindi ba burden sa Yamaha avr yung 8ohms min setting then feeding it with 6 ohms towers paano kung nasa operation na yung AVR diba variable na yun operation hindi ba masisira yung yamaha?" he then replied "sir kasi mabubugbog yung speakers namin lalo pag araw araw ginagamit kasi tumataas yung impedance nang speakers pag ginagamit, umaabot ng 16 to 32ohms yun pag tumutunog na" then I was surprised and replied "ha? ganun ba tumataas ba hanggang 16 to 32ohms yung 6 ohms kaya sineset nyo yung avr ng 8ohms min?" he then replied with proud accent "yes sir!"...

and so goes on with the story of John...

pag labas ko ng showroom, natawa tuloy ako at i-iling-iling...   

Hey bro hanns,

Here are some quotes for John:

"The worst combination would be a narrow mind and a wide mouth..."

"Better to keep silent then be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt..."

I believe that there are still people in this world that believe that they could learn everything they need to. This is why I think this is a very common occurence with people we expect to help us with some issues. I believe that there will always be room for more knowledge, new knowledge and ideas that may even prove what the whole world believes is right to be wrong. Remember everybody used to think the world was the center of the universe? And how everybody used to think the earth was flat? I think there is no limit to what man can learn and I think this should be a trait that could help everyone make better of themselves, open-mindedness and the infinite thirst for knowledge. I also think that this forum is not about winning and losing. It's not about proving who's right or wrong. I believe it's about the expansion of people's horizons and perceptions. These are, in all humility, just my opinions.  

[john5479]

for most yamaha receivers leaving the switch at 8 ohms should sound better as long as you dont push it too its limit. Its an option, but if you want to protect your gears, choose the safest setting, the sound difference might not be worth your peace of mind. Or better yet just get 8 ohm speakers

[hattori_hanzo]

Acoustic Energy Aegis 1's (nominal 8 Ohm) impedance curve according to Stereophile.



Wharfedale 9.1's (nominal 6 Ohm) impedance curve according to Stereophile.



Epos M5's (nominal 4 Ohm) impedance curve according to Stereophile.

if this graphs shows the impedance curve of the following speakers, is this rated 1w/1m? just asking 

[bumblebee]

if this graphs shows the impedance curve of the following speakers, is this rated 1w/1m? just asking 

Mababago ba curve kung iba w/m?

[hattori_hanzo]

This speaker is tested on 50hz freq setting as you can see through the graph below...

The Impedance of the Genesis 6.1c stays mostly between 2 Ohms and 5 Ohms throughout the audible range above 50 Hz. Electrical Phase stays ± 300, which is excellent.



Sensitivity: 89 dB/W/M
Impedance: 4 Ohms

[hattori_hanzo]

Mababago ba curve kung iba w/m?

yup meron see this...

Below is shown the quasi-anechoic response of the Genesis 6.1c, with the microphone 1 meter from the center of the speaker, on axis. The response is generally flat from 50 Hz to 20 kHz.

[bumblebee]

I thought we're discussing impedance vs frequency?

[hattori_hanzo]

I thought we're discussing impedance vs frequency?

yup see the 50hz setting, mostly 2-5ohms on electrical phase (+/-300). 

[bumblebee]

yup see the 50hz setting, mostly 2-5ohms on electrical phase (+/-300). 

The first graph is ok. I asked if the impedance curve changes if you change w/m. Then you showed 2 graphs w/o impedance.

Anyway, our graphs show that impedance varies w/ freq. So agree ka na Daiichis could go as high as 16? or even 32?

[hattori_hanzo]

The first graph is ok. I asked if the impedance curve changes if you change w/m. Then you showed 2 graphs w/o impedance.

Anyway, our graphs show that impedance varies w/ freq. So agree ka na Daiichis could go as high as 16-32?

nope not yet the graph i showed you are just a followup on the tested 50hz setting using a 1w/1m.

maybe upto 25ohms pde pa ako maniwala for a typical mas market speakers like dai-ichi but not 32ohms...

like this limestone speakers...

The impedance varies from 5.5 Ohms to 25 Ohms, and electrical phase never strays beyond 45deg. The impedance valley at 80 Hz represents the tuning frequency. These would be an easy speaker for mass market receivers to drive.

[hattori_hanzo]

Well just to end this "impedance vs. freq." issue, ciguro sir bumblebee testing different freq will give different impedance results... 

at least healthy discussion pa rin tayo, thanks! sir bumblebee... 

[bumblebee]

...
at least healthy discussion pa rin tayo, thanks! sir bumblebee... 

Dapat naman talaga ganyan. Thanks rin

[av_phile1]

Mababago ba curve kung iba w/m?

An impedance curve is purely an electrical measure.   A senstivity rating is a mix of electrical and accoustic measure.  I don't think speaker sensitivity readings have anything to do with impedance curves.   

[indie boi]

Among all of the floorstanders mentioned on the first page, which one is the best for audio-only applications? And how much would it cost?