Topic: Upgrading But Low on Budget

[bootsubay]

Hi guys I currently own a Yamaha HTIB I forgot the model already and I think I need to upgrade because we moved the HT to a new and bigger room.  Can you give me suggestions on what to use? I think bookshelfs are going to work. Can you suggest any brands? Are Missions okay? okay na ako sa AVR I just need speakers and the sub. 5.1 lang ha. As I have said very very tight ang budget. Kung ma post nyo din yung mga price range mas maganda sana.  I just need ideas before i go out and go to the stores.  Thanks, I'll b expecting replies from the Gurus on the subject.

[MAtZTER]

What is your "low on budget"?

You mentioned HTiB, do you mean a receiver with 5.1 speakers of a Yamaha HTiB (w/ DVD player)?

If its the latter, I wouldnt recommend that you just replace the HTiB speakers with new bookshelves. Get a decent receiver at least.

[bootsubay]

Thanks Matzter. The reciever is not a problem.  A 2nd hand Yamaha AVR is coming c/o a relative ( not sure what model but its a freebie and seldom used so i'm taking it). my problem is what speakers can i pair it with that wouldn't burn a big hole in my pocket.  I'm going to use the existing HTib in a smaller room probably the bedroom.  I saw in the HT Gallery the setup with Missions that look sweet ( I think its by 5speed).  I wonder how much are those sans rear center? 

[scofield]

bro,

if you changed your mind and decided to get  2nd hand avr, I'm selling my HK 135 for 15500.

just p.m. me. thanks

[MAtZTER]

What model is the AVR?

The reason I ask is so that I could recommend a matching speaker for it. If its an entry level receiver (RX V3**, 4**,5**), I would recommend bookshelf speakers or smaller 5.1 systems, if its a higher powered mid-model (RX V1*00 or RX V2*00), you can go for floorstanders if you want or have the budget.

Its common that many people want floorstanders but I would strongly recommend that you dont use lower powered entry level receivers on floorstanders OR you might risk making your system sound "thin" or parang HTiB (eh di ba sayang? nag separates ka pa  ). And the sad thing is, I have noticed that this is a very common occurence.

In my auditionings & personal experience, Missions, Monitor Audio and suit Yamaha well.
Entry level bookshelf of these brands range from 8-12t. Though there is a scarcity of Mission speakers since the company is restructuring abroad.
Floorstanders cost around 22+k.

I think there is a Mission M3 5.1 speaker system thats still available everywhere. This would be a very good replacement to your HTiB. If I recall correctly its around 30+k. Saw them at HiFi Lounge Alabang, Sights & Sounds (Shangrila and Park Square).



Remember that even small speakers like these will sound like floorstanders when you power them generously (usually with high model AV Recievers).

[r_Y_@_n]

i'm not one of the guru's here but just some input that may help you...  some speakers that i have auditioned are JBL's and DALI's, i currently have the DALI concept 1 and im very much satisfied with it. these are DALI's entry level speakers but a very good value for your money.    wharfdale diamond 9 series also looks good, although i havent auditioned them yet, maybe you could check them out as well. i would also suggest that you bring your receiver anywhere you audition speakers so that you would see how it fits your AVR. good luck! 

[newbie pa rin]

When I was auditioning speakers before I really would love to bring my receiver but the problem is ang hirap ng may bitbit na receiver mabigat.

[5Speed]

Thanks Matzter. The reciever is not a problem.  A 2nd hand Yamaha AVR is coming c/o a relative ( not sure what model but its a freebie and seldom used so i'm taking it). my problem is what speakers can i pair it with that wouldn't burn a big hole in my pocket.  I'm going to use the existing HTib in a smaller room probably the bedroom.  I saw in the HT Gallery the setup with Missions that look sweet ( I think its by 5speed).  I wonder how much are those sans rear center? 

Bootsubay... thanks for looking pre....

My front speakers are old model Mission M72i and M70 for the rear (I really like the sound of these M7x series, for its price I think its a bargain compared to its performance thats why I still have those babies).....Mission doesnt manufacture these speakers anymore but they have a new comparable model in M3 and M5 series....

What is your Yamaha AVR? medyo power hungry yung missions M72i, sensitiviy is only 88 or 89dB although okey pa naman kapag mababa ang power ng nagda-drive...medyo manipis lang yung tunog ng vocals at bass...but paired it with a powerful amp at lalabas yung napakalaki nyang potential....akala mo eh floorstanders na ang tumutunog...hehehe A friend of mine bring his Cambridge audio two channel  integ amp and a dedicated CD player with burr brown DAC last weekend at nagulat din ako sa kinalabasang tunog....its the first time that I hooked up this babies in a dedicated 2 channel setup....

after that eh binibili na nung friend ko yung speakers ko....sulitan na lang daw nya....hahahahahaha sabi ko eh try nya yung Mission 780SE (me nakita pa ako nito dito) malamang eh mapabili sya ng wala sa oras.....

now eh medyo nagkaka-SARS na naman ako....

[MAtZTER]

Ganyan talaga effect ng higher power given by amps. More power & better processors = better HT & music experience. The higher models are not there cuz they look fancier or for more profit for the manufacturers.

Si munskie had Mission 77 series setup paired with an entry level onkyo in his bedroom setup. When he tried to listen to it with his top model Denon 3805, nagulat sya on how the Missions performed. Ang layo daw from before.

I also heard a top model HK630 powering an Infinity Beta HCS 5.1 speaker system. Each speaker was only as big as a Mission M70 surround speaker. But they sounded like floorstanders!

Iba talaga tunog ng speakers pag BUSOG.

[Jun_P]

I've also been using a HTiB and now I feel its time to upgrade. Here are my considerations:
- budget: 30-40K
- room size: 10-12 sqm.
- power consumption

At first i thought of just upgrading to a better HTiB, but, found out that with the budget consideration I can already go for separates.. Just need to match the AVR with a good set of bookshelf (space considerations) speakers.

After some time with my current HTiB, I now realized na nakukulangan na ako sa performance nya in terms of clarity.

Any recommendations?

TIA!

[av_phile1]

Starting with good speakers, see if you like a diamond 9 set of HT speakers and a good subwoofer from polk audio or wharfedale.  That would easily eat more than half your 40t budget.  I heard some yamaha models are going for less than 20T.  So adding a few more on your budget should do it.  I am assuming you can use your current DVD player. 

[newbie pa rin]

I've also been using a HTiB and now I feel its time to upgrade. Here are my considerations:
- budget: 30-40K
- room size: 10-12 sqm.
- power consumption

At first i though of just upgrading to a better HTiB, but, found out that with the budget consideration I can already go for separates.. Just need to match the AVR with a good set of bookshelf (space considerations) speakers.

After some time with my current HTiB, I now realized na nakukulangan na ako sa performance nya in terms of clarity.

Any recommendations?

TIA!

Ask SGT Home Theater if he can accomodate your budget of 40K for a Diamond 5.1 speakers and receiver.
One store, one complete package, he might be able to give one at your budget.
Ask ka rin ng speaker cables baka pwedeng may kasama na.

As what sir av said assuming you have a DVD player. Good to go ka na dito.
Try to read din the forum under Wharf Diamond Speakers to see kung OK sa iyo ang speaker na ito.

Goodluck!

[MAtZTER]

I've also been using a HTiB and now I feel its time to upgrade. Here are my considerations:
- budget: 30-40K
- room size: 10-12 sqm.
- power consumption

At first i thought of just upgrading to a better HTiB, but, found out that with the budget consideration I can already go for separates.. Just need to match the AVR with a good set of bookshelf (space considerations) speakers.

After some time with my current HTiB, I now realized na nakukulangan na ako sa performance nya in terms of clarity.

Clarity...the magic word. Quite an expensive one too in this hobby. Since you are upgrading from a HTiB, I assume you are looking for more then the "basta may tunog, PWEDE NA yan" mentality and the best of what a separates setup can give you.

I myself started from 4 PC speakers,  a LG 5 spkr DVD component, then entry level AVRs, a higher mid level AVR and now the latter w/ power amps. No wonder I kept upgrading and didnt know why, but I found later that this "clarity" was what I was looking for.

IMO and IME (exp), clarity is related to POWER. The more power you give the clearer your HT will be. From the coarse voices of a narrator to the dropping of a shotgun shell to many almost inaudible sounds in HT can be achieved by a receiver or amp with lots of clean POWER (and a good AVR processor of course). The max power consumption of my receiver/power amp/sub setup alone is around 1500+w already while a Samsung HTiB posted its power consumption of.....200+w, may (thin) floorstanders & subs na yun. (readers: pls dont misinterpret, just trying to prove a point here, not put down or whatever). All I can say is the clarity difference between the 2 is huge.

If you can, I suggest you go for a higher model receiver first , specially those with PRE-OUTS (so you can connect an external power amplifier in the future) and get a pair of bookshelf speakers first then when funds allow, upgrade to add a sub, then surrounds. By getting a good receiver at the start, you can upgrade to floorstanders in the future and the receiver can power the floorstanders decently. You can then move the bookshelves to the surrounds or 6th & 7th channel if you want.

Dont fall into the very common "just get any entry level AVR and get a floorstander" approach without considering the power factor needed for floorstanders. Chances are a bookshelf spkr thats well powered by a good receiver will sound better than an underpowered receiver trying hard to power a multi-driver, bigger cabinet space floorstander w/c requires more clean power for it to sound its best. Baka naman yung tunog nya ay halos parang HTIB, sayang naman, nag separates ka pa." 

Power is related to budget sadly. More power = more expensive receivers. But there is a way around this. If you are on a budget, 2nd hand AVR's that were powerful kick ass receivers years ago are being sold for the cost of brand new entry level receivers at the B/S section. So what if you dont have the latest features? some of which you might not use?

You might be spending a bit more with the advice mentioned above, but in the future, you will regret it less. Just look at my HTiB to AVR + power amp transition where I sold lots of gears at a loss to get new ones. I am sharing here what I learned from this experience so most HT newbies would have a better optional path to take.... than the one I took. hehe

[av_phile1]

Actually, CLARITY and detailing has more dependency on lower Noise floor or higher signal to noise ratio, so your signals don't get muddled even at low volumes and you can hear every nuance and detail that can easily be modulated and lost by noise. It has more dependency on the amp's damping factor, so that the higher it is,  it can control the low frequency excursions of your woofer so as not to crowd out the musical details at low frequencies.  It has more to do with higher Slew Rate and smaller Rise Times, so the signals, expecially the highs, rise and follow their peak waveforms as fast as they should, ensuring integrity and accuracy of the source signal's amplication.  It has more dependency on smaller Intermodulation distortion and harmonic distortion products, so the signals don't get confused and crowded with extraneous signals that were not in the source.  It also has more dependency on having the widest possible bandwidth, so you hear more of the subtleties and airness often found with the highs and the deep lows.  Lastly, it also has dependency on better interchannel separation, reducing bleedthrough that ensures more separation and, thus, greater clarity for each channel as each would have their own set of frequencies to handle, and not be bothered with other frequencies form other channels to further increase IM needlessly.

Without any of the above, even the most powerul amp+speakers will not sound clear and will in fact drive you out of the room within a few minutes.  Having a generous power reserve will simply enable these qualities to shine through in larger rooms with enough heardroom to guarantee you won't ever have to contend with clipping distortions.  But in small rooms, even modestly powered 10 watt amps can sound as crystal clear as long as they meet the above qualities. 

Admittedly some of the finest qualities mentioned above can mostly be found in really high powered separate amlifiers like Brystons, Krells, Musical Fidelity, Aragons, Parasounds, Theta Dreadnaughts, etc.  And if you're coming from PC systems or HTIB and entry level systems, it is easy to be impressed with higher powered gears.  That's essentially because these mid-priced gears often have immensely  better technical specs, apart from having greater power.   Just my thoughts.

[MAtZTER]

Without any of the above, even the most powerul amp+speakers will not sound clear and will in fact drive you out of the room within a few minutes.  Having a generous power reserve will simply enable these qualities to shine through in larger rooms with enough heardroom to guarantee you won't ever have to contend with clipping distortions.  But in small rooms, even modestly powered 10 watt amps can sound as crystal clear as long as they meet the above qualities. 

Wow, sir AV never ceases to amaze me.   I had to read that 10x before I got all those technical stuff.

I think it would be safe to say that these qualities are generally better in the higher model receivers that I was recommending, maybe not on the power side but on the quality aspect.

Tama nga naman, its not the power factor only. I just recalled the P3,000 Sakura amps I saw in Raon that were 250w. I am sure it wont hold a candle to a $3,000 250w Bryston amp both in SQ and actual weight. I stand corrected .

The entry level receivers use a different amp section than the mid level, and their sound quality is different. The qualities you mentioned above have bigger imrovements in the mid range receivers than the lower end ones, thus my suggestion to go for higher quality (not power) receivers if you are after clarity.

Indeed I came from PC to HTiB to entry levels and now I am dabbling on the mid level gears. But in my curious nature and love for this hobby, I have auditioned & heard the high end amps like Classe, Bryston, Acurus, MF, etc myself, in shops or my friend's setups. Also, soon... my bayaw's Krell + SF grand Piano combo when they finish their house.

One thing I noticed, the difference from entry level to mid level is ..lets use the adjective..GOOD (or lets give a figure of about +30% better). But the difference from the mid end to the high end is also GOOD (another +30-50% difference). But the difference lies in the price. The entry level to mid end bracket is reachable, as prices are only at around 30% difference. Whereas on the mid going to the high end....the price difference can be up to 10x or 1000% or more! And honestly, I couldnt say it was a night and day difference for me (or must be my mid level ears or my mid level wallet was poking me). 

I wasnt really easily impressed at all on the 600w power rating of a Classe monoblock (Php 0.7m for 2) I saw w/ a B&W 803 weeks ago, with the SQ I heard. I was really more impressed with the guy who had the money to buy this P1m setup. 

[av_phile1]

I wasnt really easily impressed at all on the 600w power rating of a Classe monoblock (Php 0.7m for 2) I saw w/ a B&W 803 weeks ago, with the SQ I heard. I was really more impressed with the guy who had the money to buy this P1m setup.  

Same here.  Well, Matz you probably were just too excited at hearing those exotic gears with more power.  I think you already know these things.   

And yes, in general and IME, higher model gears with higher power ratings (true power not hyped power)  generally have better technical specs overall.  Better freq resp, THD + noise figures, IMs, damping factors, etc.  I would think it's only logical.  Otherwise, at higher power levels, mediocre qualities will simply get magnified to a painfully obvious degree.  So you need to be more refined, the more powerful you become.  I think that's valid for both amplifiers and human character.     But let's not be too awed by that and forget that there are low powered amps that are also  refined.  Just like some poor folks.   

One thing I noticed, the difference from entry level to mid level is ..lets use the adjective..GOOD (or lets give a figure of about +30% better). But the difference from the mid end to the high end is also GOOD (another +30-50% difference). But the difference lies in the price. The entry level to mid end bracket is reachable, as prices are only at around 30% difference. Whereas on the mid going to the high end....the price difference can be up to 10x or 1000% or more! And honestly, I couldnt say it was a night and day difference for me (or must be my mid level ears or my mid level wallet was poking me).

 

True, below a certain price point, performance increments between models in different price points can be commensurate to the increase.  But beyond a certain price point, it doesn't always follow.  A 10x increment in price doesn't mean a 10x imrovement that one can audibly perceive.  The improvement can in fact be purely cosmetic.  But even this can appeal to the subjective and personal.  I know someone who bought a Perraux power amp costing more than a comparable Rotel because it looked good and uniquely impressive, nothing to do with sound.     Some people would get a Bryston because of its 20-yr warranty, though at its price you could afford to buy a new receiver every other year for 20 years.     Or because of its 0.003% THD at rated power - something you won't see in receivers or other comparable amps costng 10x less.  Though 0.005% THD is indeed 10x better than 0.05% THD common in receivers and less prestiguous amps, I really doubt if such already minimal THDs are audibly distinguishable from each other at comfortable listening levels.   Definitely not "day and night" difference.  But the price tag is.   

[MAtZTER]

Otherwise, at higher power levels, mediocre qualities will simply get magnified to a painfully obvious degree.  So you need to be more refined, the more powerful you become.  I think that's valid for both amplifiers and human character.     But let's not be too awed by that and forget that there are low powered amps that are also  refined.  Just like some poor folks.   
 

Wow, subtleties like this are sure needed in threads where so much ego is flying around. We need more posts like these!

I have noticed that some posters are more interested in showing off or boasting as opposed to helping newbies who are asking questions in these threads. I do wonder what kick they get out of it since we are all anonymous here.

The problem is some people have egos so big that subtleties wont work. Some are so big even a direct hit might not work. EGO inflate and defense mode button will be pressed and there will be no end to anything. Your posts will be ambushed the minute you make a mistake in an attempt to take revenge and glorify these ego maniacs.
The funny thing is, they dont like their own kind. Di magpapa lamang ang taong mayabang sa kapwa nyang mayabang, kahit sa kayabangan mismo. 

The problem is with the approach above, people with huge egos tend to look around them but not to themselves. But I realized that this is just their defense mechanism for something they are going through, like insecurity, helplessness, unhappiness, and tons of other deep problems they dont want to face.

So as much as I liked the approach above, I think its futile. Lets just understand these people. Deep underneath, all they need is LOVE. 

LOVE AND PEACE!!!

I hope they dont read this or my sincere posts will be ambushed. 

I think that we (sir AV_phile & Matzter) are a good complement in this forum. Sir AV unselfishly provides the knowledge and technical aspects of the hobby (most of which I dont know). There may be others who know as much, but they dont find the time to share it like Sir AV does. While me,  I share my experiences and experiments. Thats why I always repeatedly intro with the gears that I have tried, same way a public speaker introduces himself with his credentials for credibility's sake, not vain conceit. 

We both have different strokes in this hobby and I believe we respect each other for this.