Topic: Help! Will tube amps be better match to my vintage 60s speakers?

[romymartinez]

Help! Will tube amps be better match to my vintage 60s speakers?

Sirs, I would appreciate your opinions and comments. I'm very new on this audio hobby -kindly be gentle with me 

I acquired a pair of real vintage Pioneer CS speakers-88. According to this site, the speakers appeared in Pioneer's 1968/69 catalog:

http://telefunken.te.funpic.de/pioneer.html

As shown in pics below (note: not of my actual units, haven't had the time to take actual pics), they are floorstanders about 24" tall, 14.25" wide and 13" deep, with cabinets made of heavy plywood and walnut wood veneers. The walnut wood lattice fronts attracted me (and my wife) to them as they complement well my living room furnishing. They have 12" woofers, 4.75" midrange, a pair of 2" tweeters and a "super tweeters". Rated at 60 Watts 8ohms. Limited information in Internet seems to indicated that they have Alnico magnets and would have sensitivity of mid to upper 90dBs. To my newbie audio eyes, the drivers seems to be in good condition.




I hooked them up to a Japanese surplus Pioneer A-717V, a 100 wpc 20kg heavyweiht. But compared to my Wharefedale Pi-10 bookshelf speakers (made in early 2000s?) with 6.5" wookers and 1" tweeters and rated at 86 dB (6 ohms), I was quite disappointed with the sound of the Pioneer CS-8. The Pioneer seems to have anemic bass and lifeless presentation. To my ears, they even have almost similar loudness at same volume level (say 9 o'clock) which is quite surprising since the Pioneer is supposed to be more efficient.

. The specification of my amp is given in this link:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audio-heritage.jp%2FPIONEER-EXCLUSIVE%2Famp%2Fa-717v.html&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

I tried to search Internet for possible explanation to the dissappointing performance of the speakers and I came across this tread in AudioKarma:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16807

In post #14, the poster talked about damping factor - that modern amplifiers have relatively high damping factor compared to vintage tube amplifiers (for example my Pioneer A-717V has a 70 damping factor while a Dynaco ST70 according to Internet has a damping factor of 15) - thus modern amplifiers are not well suited to vintage speakers that are "already heavily damped" to match the low damping factor of vintage amps.

Does this makes sene to you? And would it mean that my Pioneer CS-88 would perhaps sound better on tube amps or vintage (pre-70s) amps in particular?

romymartinez

[bongskicool]

hi sir, musta na, im not in a position to give any comments or answers to your question because for 1. im also new in this hobby and 2. i havent tried nor heard that speaker yet..i just coudn't help my self to appreaciate that very nice looking speaker  and piece of furniture. Im really amazed and fascinated with vintage audio gears , amplifiers in wooden enclosure, especially those speakers with lattice grills, i even asked my sister to buy me the one i saw on ebay, but its an AKAI speaker like this one, http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.audio-heritage.jp%2fAKAI%2fspeaker%2fsw-125.html..  I havent heard  nor read any reviews about it and until now i stiil dont know what amp would match this, be it TUBE which until now i still don't have or a SS, hoping that it would satisfy my ears or maybe not, but then again, my only consolation is i have a wonderful piece of furniture standing at both ends of my living room..congrats on your newly acquired speakers and im happy that your still enjoying your pioneer A717V..  BTW balik pioneer ulit ako and sana makapagtry din ako ng TUBE.. GANDA speakers mo sir inggit ako.
Please...can somebody enlighten both of us.. 

[eposman]

Hello sir romymartinez and sir bong. I had a chance to own a pioneer cs-66 speaker, a smaller variant of your cs-88. This was bundled with a pioneer receiver which uses EL-84 power tubes. When I tried this combination, I was not really impressed with the sound. We had a session at my place about a year ago, and some fellow pinoydvd members like oweidah tried to hook up the cs-66 with a stock sonic impact t-amp. This proved to be a very good match because the bass was tight and adequate, the highs were not piercing to the ears, and the overall sound was tonally balanced. We were all surprised with this outcome. Sir romy, you can test your speakers with the t-amp at my place one weekend if you want. We can also partner them with some of my tube amps so you can hear and decide for yourself which combination is best for you.

[audiojunkie]

Going TUBE is quite expensive in your experimental stage... Try even SS amp with class A - A/B output and TTable as your source...    it will probably give you a unique classic sound...

[oweidah]

Hello sir romymartinez and sir bong. I had a chance to own a pioneer cs-66 speaker, a smaller variant of your cs-88. This was bundled with a pioneer receiver which uses EL-84 power tubes. When I tried this combination, I was not really impressed with the sound. We had a session at my place about a year ago, and some fellow pinoydvd members like oweidah tried to hook up the cs-66 with a stock sonic impact t-amp. This proved to be a very good match because the bass was tight and adequate, the highs were not piercing to the ears, and the overall sound was tonally balanced. We were all surprised with this outcome. Sir romy, you can test your speakers with the t-amp at my place one weekend if you want. We can also partner them with some of my tube amps so you can hear and decide for yourself which combination is best for you.

agree doc!

try to din sa T-amp w/tube preamp combi...

pag di swak sa taste mo; gumaya ka samin ni doc, mag X3 ka 

[romymartinez]

@Sir bongskicool, Kumusta na Sir? I'm surprised your now also lurking on tubes thread  . I'm still enjoying your Pioneer A-717V which to my newbie ears matched the Wharfedale Pi-10.

I got these Pioneer CS-88 from Sir stereo:
http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=64879.msg710768#msg710768

The units look actually much better than shown in pictures put up by Sir stereo. Yes, natuwa (or should I say, hindi nagalit) si Misis nung inuwi ko sa bahay yung speakers. A real nice piece of furniture.

Sir bongski, good luck on your vintage Akai speakers!!

@Sir eposman, Sir oweidah, thanks for the comments and offer. Really appreciate it. I'm living in Nueva Ecija, but nevertheless, I will really consider your kind offer! 

@Sir audiojunkie, thanks for the comments. You're right. I really don't have the budget to experiment. 

[romymartinez]

Got some additional info on the CS-88

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.audio-heritage.jp%2fPIONEER-EXCLUSIVE%2fspeaker%2fcs-a88.html

In the specs in says 99dB sensitivity 

Today I listened to them with the lattice grills removed and to my newbie ears, they sounded MUCH MUCH better than with grills on. Now I'm really beginning to like the sound. Paired with the Pioneer A-717V, the Wharfedale Pi-10 sounded better with contemporary pop and rock, but the Pioneer CS-88 speakers seems better when playing 60s music (e.g. Astrud Gilberto, The Who, Yardbirds/Cream,, Buffalo Springfields, Louis Armstrong).

[bongskicool]

nice to hear that.. medyo nanibago lang cguro ang panlasa mo sir..pero kelangan na rin cguro talaga natin ma try ang tube amps..(nanunulsol ba.. )..actually naghahanap lang ako ng kadamay.. .. ENJOY your very nice vintage speakers.. long live vintage

[audiojunkie]

nice to hear that.. medyo nanibago lang cguro ang panlasa mo sir..pero kelangan na rin cguro talaga natin ma try ang tube amps..(nanunulsol ba.. )..actually naghahanap lang ako ng kadamay.. .. ENJOY your very nice vintage speakers.. long live vintage

try vinyl....  (another sulsol....)

[bongskicool]

try vinyl....  (another sulsol....)

well, actually, im now into vinyl.. talagang tube na lang sir ang wala.. ( sana pag tulog ko buksan ito ni kumander at mabasa nya at bka maawa )

[The Analog Source]

hi bong pag vintage talaga ang gear masarap pakinggan un mga luma tunog din - ray conniff, herp albert, astrud, etc.
not sure if psychological lang or match un equipment with the recording method 

[alexg]

Romy,

You need to check the crossover, and make sure the capacitors are still functioning.

Are you still going to IRRI/LB?

You can audition my KT88 SE amp and pair it with your vintage speakers and see how it goes. PM me for details.

[bongskicool]

hi bong pag vintage talaga ang gear masarap pakinggan un mga luma tunog din - ray conniff, herp albert, astrud, etc.
not sure if psychological lang or match un equipment with the recording method 

well siguro sir talagang may psychological effect ito(IMO) kasi it bringsback memories from my younger days na nakatabi lang ako sa tatay ko while listening to his Patti page, connie francis,righteous bros and some trio los panchos records..npakasimple ng buhay nuon at napakatahimik ( senti na AH).. and syempre naman importante din talaga ang matching ng equiptments..btw , how's the lux babies doin?  sorry po OT na pala.

[The Analog Source]

babalik ko sa topic....

whether tube or ss, IMO basta vintage din un amp bagay sa old musics. 
have tried using pioneer, NAD, lux, sansui.....  only in the lux and sansui the music comes out eh.

you want to try it out? PM me and bring your speakers over. o bong sama ka?   

[romymartinez]

Romy,

You need to check the crossover, and make sure the capacitors are still functioning.

Are you still going to IRRI/LB?

You can audition my KT88 SE amp and pair it with your vintage speakers and see how it goes. PM me for details.

Sir alexg,

Sent you PM. Thanks for the offer, really appreciate it.

OT:Yes, Sir. I'm still doing some work at IRRI/LB.

[romymartinez]

babalik ko sa topic....

whether tube or ss, IMO basta vintage din un amp bagay sa old musics. 
have tried using pioneer, NAD, lux, sansui.....  only in the lux and sansui the music comes out eh.

you want to try it out? PM me and bring your speakers over. o bong sama ka?   

Sir halls, thanks. Really appreciate it. I'm living in Nueva Ecija, but wll seriously consider your offer, Sir.

[bongskicool]

Sir halls, thanks. Really appreciate it. I'm living in Nueva Ecija, but wll seriously consider your offer, Sir.

ako sama? syempre naman hindi ko papalagpasin ito...sir romy bka magawi ka manila nd may spare time ka just text me para mapasyalan natin c sir halls.

[romymartinez]

ako sama? syempre naman hindi ko papalagpasin ito...sir romy bka magawi ka manila nd may spare time ka just text me para mapasyalan natin c sir halls.

Sir, bongskiecool, sige sir. Pag magawi ako Manila..

[romymartinez]

Hello sir romymartinez and sir bong. I had a chance to own a pioneer cs-66 speaker, a smaller variant of your cs-88. This was bundled with a pioneer receiver which uses EL-84 power tubes. When I tried this combination, I was not really impressed with the sound. We had a session at my place about a year ago, and some fellow pinoydvd members like oweidah tried to hook up the cs-66 with a stock sonic impact t-amp. This proved to be a very good match because the bass was tight and adequate, the highs were not piercing to the ears, and the overall sound was tonally balanced. We were all surprised with this outcome. Sir romy, you can test your speakers with the t-amp at my place one weekend if you want. We can also partner them with some of my tube amps so you can hear and decide for yourself which combination is best for you.

Got a Trends Audio TA-10.1 TA2024 based T-AMP from Gubs (thanks Sir!). To my ears, it was a better match to my Pioneer Speakers. It sounded better than the vintage Pioneer speakers + SS amp combo.

Very soon, I will also  have the opportunity to audition it with a KT88 SE (on loan from a very kind and nice friend).

[bongskicool]

Got a Trends Audio TA-10.1 TA2024 based T-AMP from Gubs (thanks Sir!). To my ears, it was a better match to my Pioneer Speakers. It sounded better than the vintage Pioneer speakers + SS amp combo.

Very soon, I will also  have the opportunity to audition it with a KT88 SE (on loan from a very kind and nice friend).

Ooops.. naunahan mo ako sir.. congrats on your tube journey

[audiojunkie]

well, actually, im now into vinyl.. talagang tube na lang sir ang wala.. ( sana pag tulog ko buksan ito ni kumander at mabasa nya at bka maawa )

Ako rin Sir, yan din ang nasa wishlist ko.....

[alexg]

Romy,

Am really very sorry that the output cap of my KT88 took a dive.

The mundorf that I ordered already arrive, I just needed to pick it up from Audio Amplified. I will text you when the amp is fixed so we can schedule for you to get it in Laguna.

Regards

[romymartinez]

Romy,

Am really very sorry that the output cap of my KT88 took a dive.

The mundorf that I ordered already arrive, I just needed to pick it up from Audio Amplified. I will text you when the amp is fixed so we can schedule for you to get it in Laguna.

Regards

Sir alexg,

No problem, Sir. I will just wait. I really appreciate your generous offer.

Just take your time, Sir, as you might be very busy with your other audio projects.

Again thanks, Sir alexg.

romymartinez

[alexg]

Sir alexg,

No problem, Sir. I will just wait. I really appreciate your generous offer.

Just take your time, Sir, as you might be very busy with your other audio projects.

Again thanks, Sir alexg.

romymartinez

Do you have a preamp?

All my amps have no volume control.

Am almost done with another amp, if it sounds ok, then you can borrow my 832 PP monoblocks (it is not painted yet... hehehe  )

Regards,

Alex

[romymartinez]

Do you have a preamp?

All my amps have no volume control.

Sir alexg,

None at the moment.

But hopefully soon - a restored Dyna PAS2 

romymartinez

[romymartinez]

Finally managed to hook the vintage Pioneer speakers with tube preamp (Foreplay 3 inspired 12au7) and KT88/EL34/6550 SE power amp  (Thanks to Sir alexg for loaning the amps).

The speakers + tube amps sounded much better comaperd with speakers + Trends Audio TA-10.1 class-T amp combo. Also triead the Tube Preamp + Trends TA-10.1 combo (with TA-10.1 used as power amp), but still the all tubes combo sounded much better.

I will try to recap the crossover network once I manged to get the replacement capacitors.

Thank you for your helpful comments and suggestions. And thanks Sir alexg for lending me the tube amps.

romymartinez

[Brian_mico]

Finally managed to hook the vintage Pioneer speakers with tube preamp (Foreplay 3 inspired 12au7) and KT88/EL34/6550 SE power amp  (Thanks to Sir alexg for loaning the amps).

The speakers + tube amps sounded much better comaperd with speakers + Trends Audio TA-10.1 class-T amp combo. Also triead the Tube Preamp + Trends TA-10.1 combo (with TA-10.1 used as power amp), but still the all tubes combo sounded much better.

I will try to recap the crossover network once I manged to get the replacement capacitors.

Thank you for your helpful comments and suggestions. And thanks Sir alexg for lending me the tube amps.

romymartinez

sir Romy, that's good for you , finally you're able to find a match with your CS88.. actually we have the same impression though mine is CS-66 paired with sonatina el84, which I found also give a better sound compared to my ss amp (same post ba sa kabila  )

By the way, please advise me with regards to the results after you've changed the caps of the x-over.

[vwbeetle]

Also triead the Tube Preamp + Trends TA-10.1 combo (with TA-10.1 used as power amp), but still the all tubes combo sounded much better.

romymartinez

hi, how did you open the t-amp to change the position of the jumpers? im scared to open up mine as i dont know which screws to take out. also want to try it out with a tube pre-amp sana.

btw how was the sound of the t-amp with tube pre-amp compared to the t-amp as integrated? also they say the sound improves if you use battery power instead of the included ps.

tia

[romymartinez]

Sir vwbeetle,

In the Trends Audio TA-10.1, it's quite easy:

1. Download the user's manual from the Trends Audio website.

2. Disconnet the TA-10.1 from your system.

2. Remove the top screws on the amp (two in front and two at the back, to remove the top cover.

3. Make the necessary jumper adjustments, as indicaated in the manual.

4. Re-close the amp and reconnect to your system (with the tube preamp).

In my case, the tube preamp (Foreplay 3 inspired) + Trends Audio combo, across the board, sounded way better than the Trends Audio without tube preamp. But the all tube amps sounded best.

romymartinez

[JoeyGS]

(I hope this is not OT)

In my experience with the t-amp it is important to note that this is a low powered amp and will only shine and exhibit its sonic signature if the speakers being used are efficient enough or let's say easy to drive.  For me, the t-amp is like a SS 300B or SS 2A3.  Its strength is on the mid range and highs - especially Vocals.  Surely a push-pull amp will be better than the t-amp if the speakers used is hard to dirve.  In the end, its system matching and what is pleasing to the ears.

As with tube amps and vintage speakers......it is still equipment matching and there is no fixed rule.

This is healthy discussion and very good sharing of experiences.

Cheers.

JoeyGS