Topic: SD vs BD vs Downloads

[streetsmart]

Interesting results indeed!  Nakakainggit dun sa mga naka-attend.

My opinions and comments.

1.  First of all, HD DVD should have won the HD war because even its 1/4 ripped version can beat an original BD in terms of PQ.   

2.  I haven't seen a 1080p PJ in action but I THINK the PJ of Streetsmart has something to do with the "welcome anomaly".   My 50V PZ800 Panasonic would show the imperfections (pixellations, noise, etc.) of mkvs (compared to original HD DVD - dont have any BD) especially in fast moving scenes, dark scenes, sky scenes and skin complexion.    The same is true for my 37 inch Sharp LCD.  Those issues are more pronounced on 720p mkvs.  So perhaps, the PJ technology could be the equalizer???   But whatever, it doesn't take any effort to live with some PQ imperfections in some scenes of an mkv because they are not so bad.  So long as the file plays smoothly during the entire movie an mkv is high def enough for me.

3.  Not all encodes/encoders are created equal.  Batman Begins 1080p in mkv is one of those "hit" encodes.   Brilliant encoders can make enhancements to the rip as they see fit.  Some would even add grains to restore some level of film look on a clean transfer.   In any case, 1080p encoding is still very much "hit or miss."   Based on what I've seen, it's quite hard to fill a 1TB hard drive with all perfectly playable 1080p mkvs.   But then again 720ps are fine.

4.  Agree that mkvs' color saturation tend to deviate from that of the original source towards the red, BUT, that can be compensated somehow through manual picture quality settings on the TV.

5.  As regards the difficulty in distinguishing between True HD and DD - BANZAI!!!     

Baka naman the "good sound" that we hear is attributable to the "good loss/noise", or, lossless sound probably means, certain sounds were actually attenuated in the first place?   In simple term, my understanding of lossless is a perfect replica of the original source so if you use a scope, you should see 2 identical curves at any point in the timeline.   Perhaps DD deviated from the original curve in a manner that is pleasing to some ears.  So lossy is good!   

Very good observations. My comments:

1. True. But I thought the upscaled video (through the video processor) would come closer to HD. It also depends on the material and the particular scenes.

2. We used a variety of scenes, including all those you mentioned. We also had a panning scene of buildings with a lot of vertical lines. That's when the jaggies and artifacts of SD were quite visible. In addition, we had a very good example of edge enhancement (face with background of sky) and that's where the Oppo and Pio (a little less cuz of the video processor) failed. I am not sure about your comment on the pj. In theory, I would think that shouldn't happen. The artifacts would be removed by a video processor, not the pj. But I'm not sure. Alvinthx2 would probably be a greater authority.

3. Agree.

4. Once you have properly calibrated the gray scale of your display, you should get pretty consistent colors from your sources. You only need to adjust brightness, contrast and saturation in your sources. I am surprised that the Popcorn was a little reddish but that's not the first time I've seen that. I used to have a top-of-the-line Sony DVD player and it was reddish too. I would have to say that it is likely the fault of the player. Furthermore, its very hard to adjust the color on the fly. Wala ka kasing reference material, other than skin.

5. I agree with your observation on Dolby TruHD vs DD. I think audio is much more subjective. Can you imagine that we used tracks which should have shown off the quality of Dolby TruHD? Very good concert, musical and a lot of sound effects. Yet, less than half got it right.

[streetsmart]

Oh.  Perhaps in the next shoot-out, the DTS quality of mkvs can also be put to the test - that is assuming the NMT can output DTS.

I'm not sure if this will be worthwhile. I can pretty much vow that the audio quality of Popcorn is pretty good. My reference would be the new Rambo movie. Fantastic sound!

I mean ... if people can't tell between Dolby TruHD and DD, all the more with DTS, considering that DD has a higher compression than DTS.

[ricky]

Im not surprised that PCH/NMTs was at par or even did slightly better than BD in the blind test shootout.

I have been watching MKVs lately, and they do give out the picture quality that I have been looking for in HD content.  

This is More than enough to convince me how good these downloaded files are Sold na ako, If only there woulb be a shop where you can buy downloaded contents I tried to download SPR 1080p and its says 162days to finish and we have a 3mbps connection pa Now another question is which of the NMTs available is worth owning?

[iiinas]

True. Unless you have a friendly file-swapping group of friends or a friendly supplier with a big collection.

Opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics in HD (Popcorn) is also just incredible!

ayos diba sir mark! seeing pacquiao carrying the country's colors in hd was a sight to see. wala lang nga tayong medal. 

[iiinas]

This is More than enough to convince me how good these downloaded files are Sold na ako, If only there woulb be a shop where you can buy downloaded contents I tried to download SPR 1080p and its says 162days to finish and we have a 3mbps connection pa Now another question is which of the NMTs available is worth owning?

sir ricky you can pm sir gren and sir ert for your nmt needs, as to contents, yup its hard to do it yourself, it takes me 3 nights of 8 hours to finish a movie, but i think with this bandwagon effect on nmts its not far that swap meets will be a norm. 

as for units, i think egreat is good in terms of features, remember there are two models for egreat same as popcorn, the a-100 and a-110.

goodluck!

[XXXyzledge]

I sent you your scores kahapon via PM. There seems to be something wrong with the PM system.

In any case, I don't think you'll mind revealing that you got 3 out of 6 sa audio (samples 3, 5 and 6). That's better than the average cuz less than half got it right.

Sa video naman, your ranking was:
1. BD30
2. Popcorn
3. Pio
4. Oppo

Your scoring was pretty good.

got ur pm sir mark!

thanks!

[jerix]

We have to consider that the equipment used in the test are not for everyone especially the video processor. With its price, it can do things that we cannot do in our own home setups. Maybe the result would be different minus the hi-tech video processor. We have our own way of viewing or hearing things because we also use different equipment. 

Technology is very fast. In this hobby of ours, we almost often perceive that what is new is better. The result of the audio test conducted on these new and old audio formats gives us some life that somehow, our good old equipment still serve us well, and we need not worry so much about the coming of new audio formats.

[iiinas]

wow, i'm surprised with the result of the PCH performing at par with a stand alone BD player. di pala ako nagkamali sa pagbili ng A100 kahit napamahal pa sa tax charged by DHL

i download 720p movies only because my plasma is only 720p native (1080p capable). does a 1080p movie better than 720p when downscaled to 720p? i only have BBC planet earth 1080p mkv and can't distinguish much with the 720p version.

talking about iron man movie, i use this movie to show off to friends esp the first part where they hit a road side bomb. ang lakas ng kabooom that it fills the room with pounding sound waves using a dtx4.15 sub. ano pa kaya kung hi-end sub or go the cheaper way of having dual 4.15 sub.

actually sir gnew, ganun din ako, mga 720p lang dl ko, kasi its only 4-6 gb and my panel is 720p native, but seeing the batman begins in 1080p and iron man in 720p sa 120" screen ni sir mark, i think the 720p iron man was softer, which i liked, kasi mas film like ang dating. because as commented by many here the batman begins clips we tested was really wow in crispness and detail, depends on which school you are. sa akin parang fake pag sobrang clear.  

[iiinas]

We have to consider that the equipment used in the test are not for everyone especially the video processor. With its price, it can do things that we cannot do in our own home setups. Maybe the result would be different minus the hi-tech video processor. We have our own way of viewing or hearing things because we also use different equipment. 

Technology is very fast. In this hobby of ours, we almost often perceive that what is new is better. The result of the audio test conducted on these new and old audio formats gives us some life that somehow, our good old equipment still serve us well, and we need not worry so much about the coming of new audio formats.

i think without the dvdo video processor the ranking will be:

popcorn
bd-30
oppo
pioneer

with the popcorn and bd-30 in virtual dead heat. it was the pioneer only that have its picture processed by the processor the other players did it on their own.

[Weng!]

actually sir gnew, ganun din ako, mga 720p lang dl ko, kasi its only 4-6 gb and my panel is 720p native, but seeing the batman begins in 1080p and iron man in 720p sa 120" screen ni sir mark, i think the 720p iron man was softer, which i liked, kasi mas film like ang dating. because as commented by many here the batman begins clips we tested was really wow in crispness and detail, depends on which school you are. sa akin parang fake pag sobrang clear.  

ok sir iinas, i will try to download 1080p movie para ma compare. sayang lang kasi sa downloading time sa 1080p, you can get 2 720p na.

[streetsmart]

sir mark wala pa akong natatanggap na ganyan! 

Sorry. I will send everyone their individual results. Baka bukas na. Marami kasi.

[streetsmart]

ayos diba sir mark! seeing pacquiao carrying the country's colors in hd was a sight to see. wala lang nga tayong medal. 

PQ of Beijing Olympics in Popcorn was stunning. Unfortunately, the sound wasn't great, but I guess that would be very difficult to capture in the Bird's Nest stadium!

[Moks007]

I was really surprised that less than half of the participants (that includes me  ) were unable to identify trueHD against legacy DD.

This just proves to me that I do not have to upgrade my current 6.1 set up to a 7.1 set up.
Saves me a lot of money too.

But in all honesty I was so sure of my answer on the first Chicago sound clip.
That's why I am so amazed that DD fares very well against TrueHD.

I remember the water drop sounding so full & rich in the first clip(that's why I chose it over the second)  which sounded a little less enveloping.

Oh well I'm happy I don't have to go trueHD yet, maybe pag 10.2 na yung kailangan 

hi bro juancho, me too, thats what I notice in chicago, the water dripping haha..Wrong pa ..Ya I might not upgrade my receiver at the moment. My main setup is just in bedroom lang. Maybe if I have a big hometheater type room I will upgrade the receiver right away hehe...

[iiinas]

ok sir iinas, i will try to download 1080p movie para ma compare. sayang lang kasi sa downloading time sa 1080p, you can get 2 720p na.

exactly sir gnew,

but question lang, what size panel ka, kasi on my 37" i dont see any difference between 720p and 1080p, but sa 120" ni sir mark, i found the 720p softer, more film like in my opinion which i liked.  

[Clondalkin]

2. We used a variety of scenes, including all those you mentioned. We also had a panning scene of buildings with a lot of vertical lines. That's when the jaggies and artifacts of SD were quite visible. In addition, we had a very good example of edge enhancement (face with background of sky) and that's where the Oppo and Pio (a little less cuz of the video processor) failed. I am not sure about your comment on the pj. In theory, I would think that shouldn't happen. The artifacts would be removed by a video processor, not the pj. But I'm not sure. Alvinthx2 would probably be a greater authority.

Thanks for the reply Streetsmart.  

Actually, I'm not sure at all about my theories on the PJ because I haven't really read that much about that tech.  How does a PJ achieve native 1080p resolution?  In the case of HDTVs, my Plasma is full HD panel so 1080p output is rather straightforward.    

You mentioned before the shoot-out that the PCH would be upscaled "internally" (I interpreted internally as that of the PCH itself).   However, I don't think a PCH would be that much more powerful than a decently configured HTPC in terms of video processing, for it to be able to make a heavily compressed video file look "as pristine" if not better than the original BD on a 120-inch screen.   Hence, I thought perhaps a 1080p projector (with its own powerful video processors??) can somehow achieve that.   Plasmas and LCDs may have their own internal upscalers too but because these technologies more of "remap" the video to match the native resolution of the screen as opposed to "process" the video, and as the pixel sizes increase in proportion to the screen size, the imperfections of the mkv become more evident with large-sized HDTV.   But then I really don't know for sure so purge me of my ignorance please.  

Or just maybe, it all boils down to the quality of a particular encode.  Perhaps the Batman Begins 1080p encode was simply that remarkable (got to re-watch that again with eagle eyes then)

With regard to color adjustment of an mkv, simply setting my TV to "Living" usually does the trick, but the Wife likes to fine tune the PQ a little bit more, then adjust the size of the subtitle.  

[juanch]

hi bro juancho, me too, thats what I notice in chicago, the water dripping haha..Wrong pa ..Ya I might not upgrade my receiver at the moment. My main setup is just in bedroom lang. Maybe if I have a big hometheater type room I will upgrade the receiver right away hehe...

yun yon eh! 

[ricky]

sir ricky you can pm sir gren and sir ert for your nmt needs, as to contents, yup its hard to do it yourself, it takes me 3 nights of 8 hours to finish a movie, but i think with this bandwagon effect on nmts its not far that swap meets will be a norm. 

as for units, i think egreat is good in terms of features, remember there are two models for egreat same as popcorn, the a-100 and a-110.

goodluck!

Thanks bro 

[vtec3]

Here are the results:

AUDIO
In the audio test, the % of those who correctly identified lossless audio vs ordinary Dolby Digital:
Overall - 46%
Sample 1 - 29% (Chicago - Cellblock tango)
Sample 2 - 33% (Chicago - last scene)
Sample 3 - 62% (Blade Runner - opening scene, lots of explosions)
Sample 4 - 38% (Blade Runner - bar scene, very deep LFE)
Sample 5 - 62% (Legends of Jazz - Jane Monheit)
Sample 6 - 55% (Legends of Jazz - Dave Brubeck)

Two members are hereby awarded the "Pinoydvd Golden Ear Award" for correctly identifying all 6 tracks. Ang hirap nun: @waxx and @alvinh

Two members get consolation awards for correctly identifying 5 tracks: @marl_5 and @stickfighter

One member will be expelled from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing all 6. Golden egg award. Perfect zero.

Three members will be suspended for one week from Pinoydvd for incorrectly guessing 5 tracks. One point lang sila.

Wala muna akong comments. Let's see what people say.

naku ako mababa din score ko 2 over 6 lang  i think better pa nga sa akin yung wala nakuha kasi at least tama yung pandinig nila yun nga lang they have to think the opposite, yung dinig nila na DD dapat TrueHD and vice versa 

[iiinas]

naku ako mababa din score ko 2 over 6 lang  i think better pa nga sa akin yung wala nakuha kasi at least tama yung pandinig nila yun nga lang they have to think the opposite, yung dinig nila na DD dapat TrueHD and vice versa 

hehe, oo nga sir vtec3.

[streetsmart]

Thanks for the reply Streetsmart.  

Actually, I'm not sure at all about my theories on the PJ because I haven't really read that much about that tech.  How does a PJ achieve native 1080p resolution?  In the case of HDTVs, my Plasma is full HD panel so 1080p output is rather straightforward.    

You mentioned before the shoot-out that the PCH would be upscaled "internally" (I interpreted internally as that of the PCH itself).   However, I don't think a PCH would be that much more powerful than a decently configured HTPC in terms of video processing, for it to be able to make a heavily compressed video file look "as pristine" if not better than the original BD on a 120-inch screen.   Hence, I thought perhaps a 1080p projector (with its own powerful video processors??) can somehow achieve that.   Plasmas and LCDs may have their own internal upscalers too but because these technologies more of "remap" the video to match the native resolution of the screen as opposed to "process" the video, and as the pixel sizes increase in proportion to the screen size, the imperfections of the mkv become more evident with large-sized HDTV.   But then I really don't know for sure so purge me of my ignorance please.  

Or just maybe, it all boils down to the quality of a particular encode.  Perhaps the Batman Begins 1080p encode was simply that remarkable (got to re-watch that again with eagle eyes then)

Regarding the upscaling, this is what actually happened:

At first, akala ko 720p lang ang Popcorn version ng Batman Begins, kasi most of my files are 720p. If it was 720p, I planned to let the Popcorn upscale it internally to 1080p and then pass through to the pj. It turned out that the copy was 1080p, which was better because the Popcorn would not need to do any upscaling.

The problem, however, was that I realized that we could not send the video signal directly to the pj, without passing through the video processor. This was because the gamma corrections for the pj were handled by the video processor (this doesn’t affect anything else other than the brightness at varying points of the grayscale). Furthermore, we had to use the “curtain” feature of the processor. This allows you to remove the video by pressing a button – kelangan ito because that’s when we would do the switch between players or between audio codecs. Otherwise, lilitaw sa screen ang name ng player or ang audio codec.

The next problem was that if I used the video processor as a hub, there were a lot of HDMI hand-shaking issues when you switch between players. Thus, I had to use the AVR as the hub, and from there to the video processor. But if you do this, you have to have a different resolution for each source so that you can individually control the processing per source.

So, what I did was:

1. 480i for Pio 696, deinterlaced and upscaled by video processor to 1080p + all sorts of enhancements such as Fine Detail, Negative Edge Enhancement, Mosquito Noise Reduction. Brightness, contrast and saturation were adjusted by video processor. In other words, full processing.

2. 1080p for BD30. No processing by the VP50Pro except brightness, contrast and saturation

3. 1080i for Popcorn, deinterlaced by video processor. This means that Popcorn interlaced the material and then it was deinterlaced by the processor. In theory, this should have degraded the pq – dehado pa nga ang Popcorn. Again, brightness, contrast and saturation were adjusted by video processor pero yun lang.

4. 720p for Oppo, upscaled by video processor to 1080p. This meant that the Oppo deinterlaced the source to 480p and then upscaled to 720p. At the processor, the 720p was further upscaled to 1080p. In theory, this should have improved the pq because the upscaling of the video processor is superior. Again, brightness, contrast and saturation were adjusted by video processor – yun lang din.

All of this had to be done because that was the only way to do the test efficiently. The result was that:

1. Popcorn pq should have degraded a little bit, yet it won.
2. Oppo pq should have improved a little bit, yet it lost.
3. All outputs to the pj were at 1080p. Therefore, there was no upscaling by the pj. 

[jerix]

It seems that the objective was just to test whether the sound difference between these audio formats is distinguishable. Was there a question on what the participants preferred between the two to determine also the preferred audio format? Salamat po.

[ricky]

Regarding the upscaling, this is what actually happened:



4. 720p for Oppo, upscaled by video processor to 1080p. This meant that the Oppo deinterlaced the source to 480p and then upscaled to 720p. At the processor, the 720p was further upscaled to 1080p. In theory, this should have improved the pq because the upscaling of the video processor is superior. Again, brightness, contrast and saturation were adjusted by video processor – yun lang din.

All of this had to be done because that was the only way to do the test efficiently. The result was that:

1. Popcorn pq should have degraded a little bit, yet it won.
2. Oppo pq should have improved a little bit, yet it lost.
3. All outputs to the pj were at 1080p. Therefore, there was no upscaling by the pj. 

Sir mark does this mean that the oppo underwent 2 upscalling?Maybe that is why oppo lost

[Moks007]

Same argument regarding P*RAT*ED software...Something you constantly have to remind yourselves. PCH programs encourage Jack Sparrows.

My opinion regarding jack sparrows and lets say these downloads is its ok for the following reasons.

We always hear the saying "Life is fair" diba ..My point is in america people got well paid jobs, cheap/easy/fast internet  and the most important thing is they have Netflix and blockbuster to RENT films whether it be bluray or dvds. I just look at it this way, here in the Phils its low pay. How can a teller in a bank maybe making 10 thou a month, starting officer at a bank making maybe 15 to 18 thou a month invest/buy all the bluray discs they want at 1500 a piece (800 to 1000 maybe thru amazon/jac). I think this hidef market, even dvd is just a small market here in the Phils. Tayo lang here in pdvd (mga fanatics) ..or those that are very well off that have more extra cash to buy discs, more additional equips etc. (nothing against anybody on other income bracket, I'm just talking reality here ) Some don't make enough and prioritize on other things. Thats just reality. I'm at that point na din haha..More selective..When I buy Jack sparrows and wanna go for popcorn and downloads I think of it as "fair talaga naman" because we don't have access to renting bluray films here. Even if I pay 3 thou a month for 2mb or faster internet to me its worth it, because of the number of films you can get for that amount, can swap with friends etc.

Anyway the pq diff of popcorn and bd in my opinion is so small na maybe nga "golden eyes" na din to see all the differences ..Its just not worth buying the discs. I will buy Ironman, Godfather series, Indiana Jones etc on blu but I will not buy 27 dresses, Happening in vegas, etc. unless its Hugh Grant, Tom Hanks, Will Ferrell love stories and comedies popcorn will do for all the rest.

The most interesting thing is the night after this shootout I still ordered a Sony s350 at 253 bucks, plus 3 blu discs for a total of around 280 bucks. I could have bought the popcorn na with the money but I prioritize at the moment having a backup for my ps3 hehe

[streetsmart]

It seems that the objective was just to test whether the sound difference between these audio formats is distinguishable. Was there a question on what the participants preferred between the two to determine also the preferred audio format? Salamat po.

The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"

It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.

[alvinh]

The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"

It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.

I view/listen to most, if not all of my dvds on DD. I mentioned to Sir Mark that what I thought is DD (based on my own familiarity) is what I determined as the wrong answer. I just picked "the opposite" for my answers and got lucky.

[otepsy]

The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"

It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.

SIGURO kaya mas preffered and ordinary DD dahil mas nasanay na rin ang tenga natin dito. IMO lang  

[streetsmart]

Sir mark does this mean that the oppo underwent 2 upscalling?Maybe that is why oppo lost

Yes, the output of the Oppo was upscaled twice. At the Oppo to 720p and then at the DVDO to 1080p. For technical reasons, that was the only way to do the test. But in theory, the output should have been even better because the upscaling of the DVDO is superior. Also, the critical processing is more of the deinterlacing than the upscaling. The deinterlacing was done by the Oppo, so I thought that the test would still be legitimate.

At least, that's my take.

[streetsmart]

I view/listen to most, if not all of my dvds on DD. I mentioned to Sir Mark that what I thought is DD (based on my own familiarity) is what I determined as the wrong answer. I just picked "the opposite" for my answers and got lucky.

I would still say that your label as "Golden Ears" is well-deserved. Ang hirap talaga to guess all 6 correct, especially when less than half were right.

[jerix]

The same BD clip was played twice. First time with either DD or Dolby TruHD. The second time with the other audio codec. Hindi alam ng participants which audio codec was used. As clarified by xxxyzledge prior to the test, the question was "Which one sounds better?"

It turned out that overall, most preferred ordinary DD.

owww my goodness..this appeared to confirm the findings of a similar test conducted by Home Entertainment

otepsy siguro nga it was because of our over familiarity with the DD.   

[alvinh]

I would still say that your label as "Golden Ears" is well-deserved. Ang hirap talaga to guess all 6 correct, especially when less than half were right.

Thanks Sir Mark. Dapat pala dumerecho na ako sa Casino that night. Lapit na sa Tagaytay, e Lucky night.
Looking forward to Westgrove. I wonder what those speakers sound like.