Author Topic: Panasonic LE8 question/s  (Read 4120 times)

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Offline Eliza08

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Panasonic LE8 question/s
« on: Aug 09, 2008 at 06:36 PM »
We just bought a panny LE8 from SnS and notice that there were some "grainy" scenes in the blu-ray, Kingdom of Heaven, which is supposed to be one of the cleanest blu-ray transfers available:

Could it be:

1) The film transfer itself?
2) Our HDMI cable? (not branded)
3) Bec. our player is a ps3

Any tips or advise would be of great help. (BTW, the panel has already been calibrated)

Thanks again to e-reply for his usual swift accomodation regarding our request for a color calibration^^

Offline jmon360

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #1 on: Sep 02, 2008 at 04:40 PM »
Hi im planning to buy the panny LE8 too..
hows ur experience so far? :) :)

Offline blued888

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #2 on: Sep 02, 2008 at 06:16 PM »
Some hi-def movies are grainy such as 300, I, Robot. Try Pixar films.

Offline Bolshoie

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #3 on: Sep 03, 2008 at 12:53 AM »
Some hi-def movies are grainy such as 300, I, Robot. Try Pixar films.

totoo palang grainy yung sa 300 i thought it was just my settings when i tried watching it over the weekend...but so far satisfied na satisfied ako sa LE8,mas nagugustuhan ko pq nya than my samsung 32a450 at the same time even though this tv doesnt have any much extra features it packs a punch pag dating sa black levels and pq's

Offline blued888

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #4 on: Sep 04, 2008 at 01:14 AM »
Depende ata sa transfer (#1 as indicated by Eliza08) sa Blu-ray yung grainy-ness niya. Iba iba ang quality ng bawat disc, same as with DVDs... Meron magagandang transfers and meron iba kala mo parang VHS lang. :)

Yung mga Pixar syempre fully digital sila lahat kaya walang mga grain, talagang makinis.

Offline ninjababez®

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #5 on: Sep 04, 2008 at 02:25 AM »
Depende ata sa transfer (#1 as indicated by Eliza08) sa Blu-ray yung grainy-ness niya. Iba iba ang quality ng bawat disc, same as with DVDs... Meron magagandang transfers and meron iba kala mo parang VHS lang. :)

Yung mga Pixar syempre fully digital sila lahat kaya walang mga grain, talagang makinis.

i agree some .mkv files and bluray disk that i tested regardless of the age of a movie ..
one good example is the montreal concert from queen (afaik wayback 1978-79) it has a better pq than the SWAT movie that i recently watched ..

updating my post .. just watched conair HD .. way clearer than the swat movie that i watched ..
« Last Edit: Sep 04, 2008 at 11:28 PM by ninjababez »
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Offline Bolshoie

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #6 on: Sep 04, 2008 at 03:56 AM »
yeah we can rule out number 2 and 3 since im also using a non branded hdmi but its good for other movies and for 3 Im already using a panasonic dvd player that upscale to 1080p
« Last Edit: Sep 04, 2008 at 03:56 AM by Bolshoie »

Offline horng

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #7 on: Sep 23, 2008 at 04:50 PM »
share some photo please....!! :D

Offline darkwing

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #8 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 12:10 AM »
that's film grain :D, 300 is a great example of it

Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #9 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:38 AM »
We just bought a panny LE8 from SnS and notice that there were some "grainy" scenes in the blu-ray, Kingdom of Heaven, which is supposed to be one of the cleanest blu-ray transfers available:

Why the aversion to film grain?  Do you still watch movies in the movie theater? 

The reference image should be the picture in the theater, and your home video should look like the movie you saw in the theater.  The intensity of the grain will depend on the artistic intentions of the director.

If the natural film grain is removed on home video, it does not make the picture better; it should actually be considered worse, because the home video becomes an inaccurate reproduction of the original.






Aversion to film grain is a disturbing trend.  The Digital Bits website thinks this issue is about to become "the new black bars": 

To quote Han Solo, "I've got a BAD feeling about this." I suspect THIS issue is going to be the new anamorphic widescreen, the new black bars. This is the issue that enthusiasts and the studios are going to have to make an effort to explain to consumers who are new to Blu-ray and high-definition in general. Unfortunately, what seems to happening right now is that the studio marketing folks are conducting focus groups with new Blu-ray consumers, who are saying they want perfect pictures every time. As a result, a few of the Hollywood studios are currently A) using excessive Digital Noise Reduction to completely scrub film grain from their Blu-ray releases, or B) not releasing as many older catalog titles as they might otherwise for fear that people will complain about grain. Some studios are even going so far as to scrub the grain out of NEW releases that have been shot on film. Case in point: New Line's Pan's Labyrinth Blu-ray Disc. When I saw this film in the theaters, it was dark and gritty. The grain was a deliberate stylistic choice - part of the artistic character of the film. New Line's Blu-ray, on the other hand, is sparkly and glossy - almost entirely grain-free. So much fine detail has been removed that the faces of characters actually look waxy. Everyone looks like a plastic doll. It's worth noting that the European release doesn't suffer the same fate. One can only assume that there are fewer marketing fingers in the pie over there?

This isn't just a Blu-ray issue, it's going to affect ALL high-definition presentations of older films, if we allow it to. Film enthusiasts (and those at the studios who actually CARE about and respect the integrity of older films) need to really start educating people on this subject - new Blu-ray consumers, friends and family, fellow studio employees. FILM IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE FILM.


http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa155.html#grain




New Line Cinema's practice of reducing grain to produce a "smoother" picture on a few BD releases has caused controversy among video enthusiasts who know something about cinematography:

PAN'S LABYRINTH

"On that note, a word of warning for purists -- grain has been artificially reduced using a minor application of Digital Noise Reduction (DNR)"  http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1181/panslabyrinth.html

THE GOLDEN COMPASS

Unfortunately, being that New Line is under Warner Bros, the mastering of this film likely had a hefty amount of digital noise reduction applied to it, as film grain and fine detail such as skin pores or cloth textures are noticeably absent. Despite the overall clarity of the picture, it definitely has a "tuned down" feel to it, and I found that highly unfortunate.   http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=687&show=review





Pan's Labyrinth comparison:



The newbie prefers the image on the right because it is less grainy.
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:41 AM by barrister »

Offline ninjababez®

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #10 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:11 AM »
that doesnt look good barrister ..
i just hope they dont continue the trend or nobody follows it .. these owners should realizes that its normal .. hay ..  :-\
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Offline akyatbundok

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #11 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 08:53 AM »
Sadly it's true even in digital photography.  People equate a better image with less noise/grain.  Even if it loses a lot of detail and texture due to the smoothing effect, i.e. skin starts looking like plastic.  Review sites are partly to blame for that.  It is fairly common to see an image comparison like the one above, and the reviewer will go on to say that the softer image is better.

Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #12 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 11:53 AM »


PATTON Blu-ray review:

... 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment has now brought to Blu-Ray Disc the spectacular Special Edition that was previously released on DVD. Offering a high definition transfer of the movie in its original 2.20:1 widescreen aspect ratio, I swear that I did a double take when I first put in the disc. The film's opening sequence showing Patton in front of the American flag is simply mind-blowing. The image is so razor-sharp and stable that it looks as if you were looking at a static image on your computer. The colors are so rich, the edges so perfectly defined that it is hard to believe you are looking at a motion picture if it weren't for George C. Scott strutting about in front of it. It will leave you gasping.

However, this kind of stellar cleanliness in the presentation is also one the transfer's shortcomings. In order to achieve this kind of perfect look, a lot of clean-up has been performed on the transfer. You won't find a hint of film grain or dirt anywhere on this release - and I mean anywhere. It is so clean that it is unreal already. Using digital technologies the studio seems to have eliminated all grain from the transfer and while that creates a very clean image, it also has side effects. As a result skin tones look very pasty throughout the movie, as if every actor was wearing a little too much make-up, as if someone forgot to dust of the excess powder on their faces. It is kind of weird to look at Scott's craggy face, hear his throaty, bellowing voice and looking in his super-smooth, glamour-shot style face while body parts explode around him in the battlefield. I am sorry but for all the cleanliness it may have given the transfer I would have preferred the film's original grittiness and edge. Fox clearly went overboard here creating a transfer that no longer represents the original filmmakers' intentions, and while this may please the masses I do not think it is the way to treat a film.  ...


http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2834.shtml
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:04 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #13 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 11:55 AM »


THE LONGEST DAY Blu-ray review


... As I sat evaluating ‘The Longest Day’s 1080p/AVC-encoded transfer, a single phrase continually echoed through my mind: Digital Noise Reduction. Apparently someone at Fox decided an early ‘60s war epic would sell more copies if it resembled something the Pixar folks had put together. I wish I was exaggerating.

From the opening shot to the closing credits, skin textures and fine details aren't just haunted by a waxy appearance, they’ve been completely plasticized by an over-exuberant grain scrubber in a bottom-rung production house. At times, it looks as if the actors have been painted onto the screen while, at others, the same actors look as if they’ve been superimposed onto CG-enhanced backdrops. Depth has been erased, the foregrounds don’t naturally coexist with the backgrounds, three-dimensionality has been compromised, and the filmic nature of ‘The Longest Day’ has been sullied. By comparison, the piddling level of DNR applied to ‘Patton’ seems like a complete non-issue. I’m usually quite forgiving when a transfer doesn’t have any other debilitating issues aside from DNR, but it’s so offensive and obvious in this case that I have to protest.



http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1343/longestday.html
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:05 PM by barrister »

Offline ninjababez®

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #14 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 12:13 PM »
and they just keep on coming .. tsk tsk ..
sa tingin ko, theyre like your regular photoshopped image that went bad .. (too much enhancement)  :(
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Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #15 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 01:12 PM »
and they just keep on coming .. tsk tsk ..
sa tingin ko, theyre like your regular photoshopped image that went bad .. (too much enhancement)  :(

Please watch first before you make your judgment.  I've been watching a lot of cleaned up 60s and 70s war films recently.  Done with Patton, The Longest Day, The Bridge On The River Kwai. 2 nights ago was Batle of Britain.  Yes they are all quite clean, amazingly clean for such old movies. But personally, I like the quality of the finish.  In my opinion, they dont have the effect to me as those overly  photoshopped HOTORNOT photos which are obviously waxy and fake.  Mind you, lack of grain does not make the movie look new.  It simply makes the scenes instantaneously more eye-catchy and gives you better appreciation of the high def quality of your HDTV.  I don't mind grains on an analog CRT but I'd rather not see them on a digital HDTV.    In fact, when I watched a rather grainy high def version of The Godfather immediately after Battle of Britain, it was kind of letdown.   

So while I appreciate that there are those who prefer the grainy look for film, advancement in digital technology has given us the opportunity to see the effects of noise reduction.  Properly applied or overly applied, that depends on the personal tastes of the viewers   Purists may not like it, but I personally prefer it clean because I think that the ultimate aim of high definition is to replicate what the eyes would see in real life. I see dusts in the Metro area but I don't see grains.

I guess that's why I would rather watch a movie on my home set-up than in a moviehouse.  My eyes have had too much indulgence on clean and high contrast look.  But that's just me.   Call that a newbie preference, but that's fine by me.

Again this is just my opinion, but all those complaints against cleaned up grainy film based movies is like those film critics trying hard to find something wrong with a decently good movie that many normal viewers would not even see or care about.

Anyway, to each his own.




Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #16 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 01:28 PM »
Call that a newbie preference, but that's fine by me.

Let's just call it a personal preference.

But for me, preserving the original film grain is better.  If the viewer's personal choice is no grain, he can use the noise reduction on his monitor and/or player.  If grain is removed from the disc, the viewer who prefers the original film grain has no way of restoring it.

The bad part about noise reduction is that the technique will usually cause side-effects in other aspects of the picture, such as reduction of image depth and loss of fine detail.
 
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:06 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #17 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 01:59 PM »


DARK CITY

... Without question the most debated feature of high definition video releases lately has been the recent trend of excessive digital video noise reduction and edge enhancement added to several popular film releases. Enthusiasts are taking up their pitch forks on the AV boards and making their disgust heard. This title has been the subject of much debate since it shows obvious signs of noise reduction, especially in close ups. While not nearly as bad as some other recently reviewed titles, this transfer is very inconsistent in terms of detail and natural film appearance. The master seems to be cleaned up considerably in terms of film grain but this has also taken a toll on fine detail in facial features. The level varies from scene to scene but it happens enough to frustrate and purists with larger displays will certainly take note. Another obvious issue is the inconsistency in detail between people and the environments. While facial features are glazed over the environments around the actors still maintain rich detail and dimension, which only adds to the obvious loss in detail on the actors. Production issues are also apparent with shots that are clearly out of focus being mixed in with clear, crisp images. ...


http://www.hometheatermag.com/moviereviews/073108dark/
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:05 PM by barrister »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #18 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:06 PM »
If the viewer's personal choice is no grain, he can use the noise reduction on his monitor and/or player.  If grain is removed from the disc, the viewer who prefers the original film grain has no way of restoring it.

This is a good point although at the moment, the quality of professionally implemented digital noise reduction process is more beautiful than what can be achieved using the built-in function of the monitor and/or the player.  But yeah, everybody would be happier if the choice is left on the viewers and they have the right tools, skills and imagination to adjust the look of the movie to suit their personal tastes.

BTW, there are some brilliant encoders who add grains to the MKV encode.   :)   Some are questioning the motive, while some are very thankful of the artistry.



Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #19 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:11 PM »
BTW, there are some brilliant encoders who add grains to the MKV encode.   :)

Bad pa rin yan, sir ...

The goal should be the preservation of the original image.

If removing grain from Saving Private Ryan is bad, then adding grain to Beowulf should be equally bad.  ;)

Offline Carlo777

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #20 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:42 PM »
I think my sister, the topic starter, and I were simply clarifying whether this is normal or not. Call it a newbie question but that's what we really are - newbies. And I don't see anything wrong that, when we compared the same movie using a Toshiba CV500 and an LE8 we saw that Toshiba still has the grain but it does not appear to be as "noisy" as the way Panny display's it. Just a personal and honest observation that would really depend on one's particular preference.

In a poll regarding this "issue", some prefer the grains and some don't. Long and short of it "one's personal taste and preference", whether it be classified as a newbie preference or not does not really matter ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796214




« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 02:43 PM by Carlo777 »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #21 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:02 PM »
The goal should be the preservation of the original image.

I'm just thinking, if those 60s war films were not cleaned up, given the corny acting and dialogue, the outdated special effects, not to mention I've watched them in DVD before, I probably would not have the patience to sit down and finish them all.  The storytelling parts were OK (could be better if there were a remake) but what glued me to the sofa was the appreciation of the clean and crisp high definition transfer.   I just like it when the high def version prominently stands out over its DVD version and easily convinces my eyes that what I'm watching is like 6x clearer than any previous releases.  Yeah, there are some issues with depth of field,  but since it's a moving picture, I think the "bad effect" is not as bad if it were a still shot.  It also depends on how many artistic shots were made during the entire duration of the movie.

I guess I'm just easy to please.
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:03 PM by Clondalkin »

Offline Bolshoie

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #22 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:12 PM »
was able to decently watch 300 without the grains by running it at 480i only :

Offline Carlo777

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #23 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:17 PM »
was able to decently watch 300 without the grains by running it at 480i only :

That's nice.

Honestly, the first time I saw the grains I found it really distracting...very distracting but, it's one of those things about technology that grows on you, so it does not bother me that much anymore. If it's there, it's there, if it's not there, it's fine by me also :)

Btw, my sister still thinks it's distracting ;D

POST UPDATE:

On a PV8, try it with dynamic and set the contrast to just 50%. Wow! it does clean the grains, not as "noisy" as it was before. (pressed the recall botton and it says 1080p)
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:28 PM by Carlo777 »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #24 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:24 PM »
was able to decently watch 300 without the grains by running it at 480i only :

Now that's what I consider as not using an HDTV in accordance with the maker's intentions.   ;D ;D

The lower resolution setting simply blended the grains with the scene.

Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #25 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 03:40 PM »
If the user is really annoyed with grain, e di OK din yon, why not.

What is important is that the user is aware of the presence of natural film grain on the source material.  Now, if he is aware that film grain is normal and he still prefers to watch without grain, e di OK din yon di ba? 

But I've seen a Samsung LCD in SM playing Rush Hour 3 (37 to 40 plus inch yata yon), and I noticed that the grain was indeed excessive.  Much more grainy than the film I remember seeing in the theater and on SD DVD. 

Baka naman yung LCD TV mismo ang problema.   


I think my sister, the topic starter, and I were simply clarifying whether this is normal or not.

Yes, that's true.  But it's hard to answer accurately on this forum, since there's no way we can tell just how much grain she is actually seeing.


and they just keep on coming .. tsk tsk ..

Marami pala talaga, sabi sa AVSForum ...

Sobrang OC talaga yung mga tao doon ...  They have a running list of high def EE & DNR:

HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=937873
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:19 PM by barrister »

Offline Carlo777

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #26 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:26 PM »
@barrister

Perfectly fine, some are just very very sensitive to "artifacts", like me, when I spotted the green trail on the PV8, but in the long run, we all tend to live with it ;)

Now, that she knows it's normal, she does not rant about it anymore. Distracted, yes, but no longer to point that she is paranoid that she may have a busted T.V or PS3 (what she uses for Blu-Ray movies)

Cheers,

Offline barrister

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #27 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:35 PM »
I see. That explains it.  She just wanted to make sure that there's nothing wrong with the TV. 

Could the picture be too grainy, like the Samsung I described on Reply#25 above?


In a poll regarding this "issue", some prefer the grains and some don't. Long and short of it "one's personal taste and preference", whether it be classified as a newbie preference or not does not really matter ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796214

Here's another poll, this time from the Blu-ray.com forum:

What do you think of DNR? http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48142

On that poll, the ones who hate the DNR outnumber those who like it, 7 to 1.  That's surprising, since I thought very few people wanted to see the original film grain.
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:43 PM by barrister »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #28 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:45 PM »
Marami pala talaga, sabi sa AVSForum ...
Sobrang OC talaga yung mga tao doon ...  They have a running list of high def EE & DNR:

Makes me wonder if those people actually watch movies or they simply analyze the presence of EE & DNR endlessly.

Do they have a list of "good" BD or HD DVD releases?

They'd rather watch DVD perhaps?


Offline Carlo777

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Re: Panasonic LE8 question/s
« Reply #29 on: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:46 PM »
@barrister

Could be :)

She was just very paranoid, syempre, young customer service rep, and for people like her 30k, is a lot of money already. Well, technically it is, kaya medyo nag "freak out" when she saw the grain ;)

Btw, she is a champion when it comes to locating dead pixels, and green trails, kaya when we buy a new set she is the one who checks them out.

Grabe, she can see dead pixels that I could not see during a delivery inspection.

She is very much into T.V's and she often posts at pinoypsx, sa game theatre section pa ata.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2008 at 05:47 PM by Carlo777 »