Author Topic: Upscaling Shmupshcaling. (Read 6080 times)

samlowry · « **on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 02:04 AM »

Ok guys. I've been playing with my Panasonic BD55 (via hdmi) for a while now and I finally compared it side by side with my old pioneer dv-s737 (via component) using 2 LOTR dvds. Both are plugged into
a panasonic 58pz800u.

I seriously can't tell much difference and the little "improvement" I can see could be attributed to the power of suggestion. Yes, the bd55 has
less noise (when paused) but darn.... I seriously think the difference can't be noticed by a casual viewer..... It certainly doesn't warrant a purchase if you already have the dv s737 and
a ps3.

Is my BD55 upscaler chip busted? Or is upscaling a very slight improvement that it's hardly noticeable? I think I've properly set my player to always display 1080p btw. forcing it
to 24p even produces extra noise/pixelizations when paused.

Am I missing anything, guys?

There's is absolutely NO WAY an upscale (atleast from my panasonic bd55) can be mistaken for Hidef (as suggested by some users in the Upscaler shootout thread a while back- to have a bluray vs upscaler shootout at a distance). I'm terribly disappointed. And if my wife knew, she'd definitely have a field day and make fun of how I couldn't wait to get my "upscaler". I don't expect it to be close to blu-ray quality.... but anyone should always be able to tell which one is upscaled and which one isn't. If not, then what's the point?

I hope I screwed up the set-up somehow and yet to see what an upscaled image is:(

Since the bd55 is already known to be a "very good" upscaler, I wonder if the oppo 983 is significanly better.

ricky · « **Reply #1 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 03:00 PM »

Better stick with your BD55 and just use it for hd viewing. Upscaled dvd is no better than SD imhe, totally waste of money imo

when I compared it with my pioneer 676

Although 720p is nicer than 480p still the cost difference does not justify it

Already pm Sir mark for help adjusting what im seeing with my oppo 983

samlowry · « **Reply #2 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 03:34 PM »

where were you when I was looking for an upscaler, man? hehe... you could've saved me 3 hundred bucks.... my ps3 was doing just great as a blu-ray player.

ricky · « **Reply #3 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 04:30 PM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 25, 2008 at 03:34 PM

where were you when I was looking for an upscaler, man? hehe... you could've saved me 3 hundred bucks.... my ps3 was doing just great as a blu-ray player.

You didnt waste $300 bro since your bd55 is a good HD player, mine is $480 including hdmi and shipping :'( :'( :'( which is just an SD player

Very costly trial indeed for me. should have bought another subwoofer instead

with the money. Now my wife keeps asking me is it worth it? up to this day silent pa din ako

samlowry · « **Reply #4 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 04:32 PM »

but I already have a ps3 and the BD remote:(

crap. hehe.

daigoro · « **Reply #5 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 04:43 PM »

I think you should read the following thread as it has a similar topic. Should answer your questions

http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=85974.0

samlowry · « **Reply #6 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 04:57 PM »

Hello Dalgoro,

My concern is actually between my ordinary dvd player vs an upscaler. I can't tell a significant difference.

I'm not expecting it to look close to blu-ray.... but expecting upscalers to be noticeably better than regular dvds is a realistic
expectation, right?

ricky · « **Reply #7 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 05:05 PM »

Sam maybe you want to salvage $150 on your bd55 just let me know

samlowry · « **Reply #8 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 05:14 PM »

hehe.... had to pay a little extra for shipping and shipper:) I'm happy with how it plays blu-ray tho and should pair up nicely with a hi def avr in the future.

ricky · « **Reply #9 on:** Nov 25, 2008 at 05:17 PM »

just checking

Even with an avr that has 7.1 inputs it would be awesome im sure

samlowry · « **Reply #10 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 12:52 AM »

I've finally compared the bd55 to my ps3. It's confirmed.... the Panny bd55's upscaling is pure excrement. Horrible.
Watching dvds in my ps3 is just awesome compared to both my old dvd and the bd55.... Unfortunately mine only plays region 3 discs (which I only have 2 of) and pirated
dibidis.

I'm really now considering the Onky0 876. If it's just slightly better at upscaling than the ps3, then I'll be totally happy. Also tempted with the oppo 983 too... pero baka doble doble na if I get the 876.

Again. bd55 upscale. crap.

Awesome Blu-ray player tho so I'm still happy!

iiinas · « **Reply #11 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 06:10 AM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 27, 2008 at 12:52 AM

I've finally compared the bd55 to my ps3. It's confirmed.... the Panny bd55's upscaling is pure excrement. Horrible.
Watching dvds in my ps3 is just awesome compared to both my old dvd and the bd55.... Unfortunately mine only plays region 3 discs (which I only have 2 of) and pirated
dibidis.

I'm really now considering the Onky0 876. If it's just slightly better at upscaling than the ps3, then I'll be totally happy. Also tempted with the oppo 983 too... pero baka doble doble na if I get the 876.

Again. bd55 upscale. crap. Awesome Blu-ray player tho so I'm still happy!

going the 876 route is definitely the best bet. its upscaling capability would be top notch with the hqv reon chip inside. only sir mark's dvdo video processor will up one over it. but it will be better when using the receivers upscaler that you pump in pure 480i signals so that all the work is being done by the receiver.

ricky · « **Reply #12 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 10:44 AM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 27, 2008 at 12:52 AM

I've finally compared the bd55 to my ps3. It's confirmed.... the Panny bd55's upscaling is pure excrement. Horrible.
Watching dvds in my ps3 is just awesome compared to both my old dvd and the bd55.... Unfortunately mine only plays region 3 discs (which I only have 2 of) and pirated
dibidis.

I'm really now considering the Onky0 876. If it's just slightly better at upscaling than the ps3, then I'll be totally happy. Also tempted with the oppo 983 too... pero baka doble doble na if I get the 876.

Again. bd55 upscale. crap. Awesome Blu-ray player tho so I'm still happy!

Hard decision to make, Oppo 983~23t vs onkyo 876~90t

But if you really need to buy a new AVR then I guess its only logical for you to get the onkyo 876

where you can enjoy its superb upscalling features plus the benefit of experiencing newer sound formats

Besides who needs 3 dvd players ?

Btw OPPO983 sucks in playing pirated dvds but still awesome in origs esp r1 dvds

Thanks Sir mark for pointing it out

streetsmart · « **Reply #13 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 11:14 AM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 25, 2008 at 02:04 AM

There's is absolutely NO WAY an upscale (atleast from my panasonic bd55) can be mistaken for Hidef (as suggested by some users in the Upscaler shootout thread a while back- to have a bluray vs upscaler shootout at a distance).

There were 2 shoot-outs:
1. Upscaler shoot-out as posted in the Oppo 983 thread (though it was not just upscaling but also de-interlacing)
2. Upscaled SD vs Hi-def video shoot-out, as posted in the SD vs BD thread

We tested 8 different upscalers in the first shoot-out, including a Panny BD30. I don't really know the upscaling capability of the BD55 but if its similar to the BD30, its not very good. Those that performed well were the Oppo 983, Oppo 980, the HD-XA2 and the PS3. After that shoot-out, some people said that the pq was similar to BD.

In the next shoot-out, however, we pitted an Oppo 980 and a Pio 696 passing thru a DVDO VP50Pro video processor (which is pretty much state-of-the art) vs. BD and Popcorn. There was definitely no contest between upscaled SD vs hi-def video, especially when you use a big screen (we used a 119" screen). Your screen is pretty big so you will be able to easily detect the differences at normal viewing distances. Everyone in the shoot-out rated the BD and Popcorn much higher than upscaled SD.

A good upscaler coupled with good material will definitely produce a very good picture, but it still can't compete with BD. You can see it in jaggies, edge enhancement, a generally softer picture, less shadow detail, etc.

I haven't actually seen the Onkyo 876 in action. In theory, its upscaling capability should be pretty good cuz of its HQV chip. In that case, an 876 and an Oppo 983 would be redundant.

Your alternative would be to get a cheaper Denon AVR (maybe 1909 or 2809) and an Oppo 983.

samlowry · « **Reply #14 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 01:33 PM »

Thanks folks!

@ ricky, actually, the cash price for the Onkyo 876 is "just" 71k flat not 90ish..... and I get to have a pretty high-end receiver na rin:)

It's still beyond my initial receiver budget but since I need an upscaler, this might be it. (and it can now upscale all my other inputs)
My receiver is still from 2002 pa yata, yamaha rv1200. dts es 6.1 lang ang best format nya. I think this is a sign!

@streetsmart, A Denon 2809 plus a 983 would cost more than an 876 eh:) But darn. I'm really curious as to how a 983 image looks like. Thanks for your informative post and the recap of the shootout.

@ IIInas..... looks like this is the best thing to do when I'm looking for a new receiver anyways.

I appreciate all the posts guys and these will inform my decision.

What I don't understand is why many online reviews are raving about the BD35/55's upscaling.

ricky · « **Reply #15 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 04:15 PM »

Want to try out my oppo983 vs your bd55?lets schedule it so we can satisfy our curiosity

876 at 71t is a good deal na

Go for it na then kung talaga itchy ka after testing my oppo983 then you can order a unit for yourself

or I might order a bd55 for me naman

depending on the result

samlowry · « **Reply #16 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 04:20 PM »

Hey sure! hehe...

tho this 983 vs bd55 upscaling shootout will definitely look more like a slaughter. But as blu-ray player, I think you'll definitely like it. It's hard to fudge up blu-rays anyways, I think a crappy player would still look great.

let's pm nalang.

ps... all stores that I've asked from are selling 876s @ 71400 (one at 71 flat) so it's not really a special price:)

ricky · « **Reply #17 on:** Nov 27, 2008 at 04:55 PM »

samlowry · « **Reply #18 on:** Nov 28, 2008 at 07:43 PM »

Just tried upscaling on the Onkyo 876 using my old pio dvd player. wow! tho take note that my base comparison is from the dvd playback
on the bd55 which is just crap.

I'm real happy now and my dvds are now watchable again:) Nothing compared to Bluray tho but definitely not crappy.
I even think I'll get better results if I use my bd55 as player but output 480i through component. I've yet to try it but
I'm sure it'll be a bit better.

I guess upscaling is not a hoax after all.

Looking forward to see the holy grail of upscaling, ricky, your oppo983:)

streetsmart · « **Reply #19 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 08:01 AM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 28, 2008 at 07:43 PM

Just tried upscaling on the Onkyo 876 using my old pio dvd player. wow! tho take note that my base comparison is from the dvd playback
on the bd55 which is just crap.

I'm real happy now and my dvds are now watchable again:) Nothing compared to Bluray tho but definitely not crappy.
I even think I'll get better results if I use my bd55 as player but output 480i through component. I've yet to try it but
I'm sure it'll be a bit better.

I guess upscaling is not a hoax after all. Looking forward to see the holy grail of upscaling, ricky, your oppo983:)

I'm glad to hear that the Oppo 876 has good upscaling.

Your next project should be to master how to use the Audyssey room correction feature of the 876. There are 3 Audyssey products in the 876 -- MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. They are all pretty much state-of-the-art. But you need to be quite careful in how you use them. There is a huge thread and detailed guide at AVS Forum on Audyssey. That would certainly help.

ninjababez® · « **Reply #20 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 01:03 PM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 28, 2008 at 07:43 PM

Just tried upscaling on the Onkyo 876 using my old pio dvd player. wow! tho take note that my base comparison is from the dvd playback
on the bd55 which is just crap.

I'm real happy now and my dvds are now watchable again:) Nothing compared to Bluray tho but definitely not crappy.
I even think I'll get better results if I use my bd55 as player but output 480i through component. I've yet to try it but
I'm sure it'll be a bit better.

I guess upscaling is not a hoax after all. Looking forward to see the holy grail of upscaling, ricky, your oppo983:)

how much did you get your 876?

samlowry · « **Reply #21 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 01:48 PM »

Quote from: streetsmart on Nov 29, 2008 at 08:01 AM

I'm glad to hear that the Oppo 876 has good upscaling.

Your next project should be to master how to use the Audyssey room correction feature of the 876. There are 3 Audyssey products in the 876 -- MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. They are all pretty much state-of-the-art. But you need to be quite careful in how you use them. There is a huge thread and detailed guide at AVS Forum on Audyssey. That would certainly help.

@streetsmarts,

thanks for the info!

once everything is settled (room acoustics, etc) I'll run the audessey set up again, with proper care this time... actually the first time was easy as well, the instructions are simple and straight forward. I'll read the avs forums... pero next year ko pa talaga aayusin:)

@ninjababez, 71k bro.... It's awesome!

and there is a night and day difference between truehd and the ordinary 5.1! I don't think I've heard anything as good even in movie theaters, which I go to frequently.

I also hooked up my bd55 bluray to output hdmi (@1080p) and component and optical (@4701) at the same time. It's fun to switch between the 2 outputs and compare. watching blu-rays outputted @ 470i is also interesting..... It's still looks great and really clean.

ninjababez® · « **Reply #22 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 01:51 PM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 29, 2008 at 01:48 PM

I also hooked up my bd55 bluray to output hdmi and component and optical at the same time. It's fun to switch between the 2 outputs and compare. watching blu-rays outputted @ 470i is also interesting..... It's still looks great.

ei care to elaborate? curious mode

samlowry · « **Reply #23 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 01:54 PM »

Quote from: ninjababez on Nov 29, 2008 at 01:51 PM

ei care to elaborate? curious mode

"still looks great" specially compared to standard dvd. hehe.

you'd have to switch to the hdmi bluray input to see what details you are missing. otherwise, it's already eye-candy:) lower resolution and less details but looks great too.

(I set the monitor output to "source" and set the hdmi in to "through/pass" and the component to 1080p upscaled--switching it to "through/pass" from time to time).

samlowry · « **Reply #24 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 08:18 PM »

I take it back.

IMHO, Some DVDs can probably pass off as HD when upscaled and seen from 8 feet or more even on 58 inch screens.

Gladiator looks absolutely stunning.... Unfortunately, that's the only dvd I saw so far looking that good. So far I've tested, the Rock (looks pretty bad, still one of my favs tho), Saving Private Ryan (close ups look great), 5th Element, Minority report and 12 Monkeys (really grainy and chunky), Brazil, the negotiator, LOTR and a few others.

Gladiator seems to be the only one that stands out. Weird.

Any other titles you think are as good? thanks.

ricky · « **Reply #25 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 08:43 PM »

Sam now i think we will be comparing the oppo 983 with the upscalling of onkyo876 rather than that of bd55. Now this will be interesting

Ill bring my ultimate demo discs collection

Sana friday na, since Im really excited

samlowry · « **Reply #26 on:** Nov 29, 2008 at 09:18 PM »

cool! hehe... but I think Gladiator looks just great regardless of player tho!
I just realized that some dvds are just crappy transfers. One of my favorite films, 12 monkeys
looks horrible and is beyond help.

see you soon, bro.

ninjababez® · « **Reply #27 on:** Nov 30, 2008 at 07:42 AM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 29, 2008 at 09:18 PM

cool! hehe... but I think Gladiator looks just great regardless of player tho!
I just realized that some dvds are just crappy transfers. One of my favorite films, 12 monkeys
looks horrible and is beyond help.

see you soon, bro.

is the 12 monkeys dvd5?

samlowry · « **Reply #28 on:** Nov 30, 2008 at 11:50 AM »

actually, all my dvds are non-superbit/ regular versions. Honestly, I've never heard of dvd5 before:) I guess that's why my 12 monkeys is so grainy (but excessively so). My Gladiator is the signature selection.

I hope to try superbit on my system in the future.

barrister · « **Reply #29 on:** Nov 30, 2008 at 04:57 PM »

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 29, 2008 at 08:18 PM

Any other titles you think are as good? thanks.

Try this thread: http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=74005.0

I like Ratatouille and Hamlet (1996).

Also try Casino Royale and Pirates of the Caribbean 2.

Quote from: samlowry on Nov 30, 2008 at 11:50 AM

I hope to try superbit on my system in the future.

You might be disappointed. Many new standard DVD releases have even better picture and higher bitrates than the Superbits, a DVD line from Sony that was discontinued in January 2007.

Please browse my old post: http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=78961.msg818029#msg818029