Author Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines  (Read 79600 times)

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Offline indie boi

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #450 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 05:49 PM »
I am more inclined to Orthodox Catholicism.  


So you follow the same hardline catholicism stance that Mel Gibson's father practices? Just curious.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #451 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 06:58 PM »
I prefer and I should have called it Pre-Vatican II Catholicsm. 

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #452 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:11 PM »
we also need to look around us at the abundance of life and the life what we have now, all the blessings, all those things that sustained us to live ... all those things are enough proof that there is God.
No, it's not. There's certainly enough evidence for solar system and planetary formation, and for evolution. There's enough oral and even written history to establish anthropology of religion. There's lots of other things that establish a provable chain of causality where the existence or occurrence of A implies the existence/occurrence of B.

But to make the leap from being (ontology) to "God exists", well, for me still requires a leap of faith.

Honestly, sir, it's hard to have a discussion with someone who has trouble with reading comprehension, much less rational thinking. It's either that, or you're deliberately misinterpreting words to suit your thinking.

Let's take the quote "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."

Does that make any claims about the origin of atheism?

All it says, and allow me to repeat myself, is that in the absence of religious experience or exposure, then people will have little to no idea about God or organized religion or worship. People will form belief systems of their own, that's inevitable—hence animism and paganism, then eventually, polytheism, then the monotheism of Abrahamic and other contemporary religions.

At least av_phile1 acknowledges what the Church says about tribal societies. The Church itself recognizes the problem of people, esp. in pre-history, living without knowledge of the Christian God; in other words, or implicit or natural atheism.

As for the rest of your copied and pasted post, I will concede that to a certain extent, science itself is a belief structure.

But to imply because the Bible says the Earth must only be 6,000+ years old therefore all of scientific knowledge about cosmology, earth sciences, and evolution are false is, well, hard to acknowledge. Do you, sir, also believe that Jesus rode on dinosaurs?
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:12 PM by alistair »

Offline frootloops

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #453 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:19 PM »
Question:

Is there a catholic school that will require students to read and tackle the bible from cover to cover?

FWIR, the bible was only taught by verses.

Again, wondering why our Bible has several versions? Was it a product of hearsays and belief of different people during those days? Reason for the numerous alterations?

If we have several sects nowadays and several places for worships which they were able to build, why can't they have their own school? Like school exclusively for Muslims, Jehova.INC etc. It's kinda ironic to have a different sect joining catholic students when they do not practice Catholicism.

Offline oweidah

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #454 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:31 PM »
Question:

Is there a catholic school that will require students to read and tackle the bible from cover to cover?

FWIR, the bible was only taught by verses.

Again, wondering why our Bible has several versions? Was it a product of hearsays and belief of different people during those days? Reason for the numerous alterations?

If we have several sects nowadays and several places for worships which they were able to build, why can't they have their own school? Like school exclusively for Muslims, Jehova.INC etc. It's kinda ironic to have a different sect joining catholic students when they do not practice Catholicism.

in Islam, they have madrassa's. sa saudi maliit/musmos pa lang tinuturuan na magbasa ng Quran.

imagine two christians discussing religion eh magkaiba pala sila ng bible na binabasa... dun pa lang kung anong biblia ang tama, bangayan na.
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:32 PM by ojof00l »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #455 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:36 PM »
Question:

Is there a catholic school that will require students to read and tackle the bible from cover to cover?

FWIR, the bible was only taught by verses.


I am not aware of any Catholic school that tackles the Bible cover to cover,  Even the parish school my son attended here in multinational did not even tackle the Cathechism which I recall I had as a kid when the Parrish school I attended was still ran by Belgiian missionaries. This is actually my complaint about modern catholic schools.  The Catholic Church in this country seems to have gone complacently ignorant about the effects of those TV evangelical shows like Ang Dating Daan or INC fulfilling this role and giving some wrong interpretations of the Bible than doing it themselves in their own schools. 

Offline CMac

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #456 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 07:37 PM »
I wonder if atheists can discern good from evil.
If you opt to follow the right path, why do you do it?
What laws inhibit your evil side from taking over?





Offline vx2

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #457 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 08:21 PM »
kaya lang, bakit pa ba babaguhin ang orig? ngayon sa dami ng versions/editions, paano malaman alin ang pinakamalapit sa "orig"?  ::)

pwedeng sabihin nung iba na nahaluan na ang isang version/edition ng biblia ng kamalian na dulot ni satanas. eh kung yun pala ang binabasa ng kausap mo, sure bangayan,debate at di pagkakaunawaan ang mangyari...


These are questions and arguments that seek to further divide and shake the faith, but let us not forget the distilled essence of the teachings and verses on how one should treat his fellow men and live his life is well, basically untouched.

These arguments on the revisions and versions should be irrelevant for a true believer because if you take it too seriously, you're only arguing for argument's sake. These philosophers/theologians  are more concerned about semantics and literature than faith and salvation itself. Can you give me one BIG example that the whole Christian sect is arguing on whether it should be included, revised or excluded? If they are, they are only widely debated on theological groups which deem it necessary to their jobs.

The only more "serious" revision and are subject to much more common debate that i can recall is of the verse was "saved by faith alone" added by Luther wherein the book of James chimes in to balance it by "faith without works, or works without faith... are dead". Well, common sense, no?

In the end, religion isn't faith. Hence, the popular quote "I don't believe in religion, I believe in God"

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #458 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:13 PM »
Question:

Again, wondering why our Bible has several versions? Was it a product of hearsays and belief of different people during those days? Reason for the numerous alterations?



AFAIK the various versions of the Holy Bible are mainly due to variances resulting from inter-language translations and the translation approach used, whether verbatimly which is literal, or using the contextual idioms of the language at the time they were written.

The initial problem is the Hebrew text which is the world's poorest language as far as nouns are concerned but it is also the most abbreviated language that can express meanings in different ways depending on the idiomatic expression or contextual meanings. Then you have to translate the later Greek portions of the Bible and the Latin parts. So now you have the Greek Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate, the Lutheran and King James and the Douay versions . And then over the years, you have English translations that go back to the older manuscripts to translate directly from Hebrew, Aramaic  or Greek to modern English while others prefer to translate the Latin Vulgate directly to Modern English or from the old English of the King James to more modern English. And like I mentioned earlier, some translations are literal or verbatim from one language to another, while some are contextual or idiomatic.  So now you have many versions. And I'm not even talking about versions created precisely to exclude certain books because they were not canonical based on their beliefs.

There's a lot more to it, of course, including the credentials of translators or the politics behind as most translations have to go through an approval process like a nihil obstat and imprimatur, etc..  

Quote
If we have several sects nowadays and several places for worships which they were able to build, why can't they have their own school? Like school exclusively for Muslims, Jehova.INC etc. It's kinda ironic to have a different sect joining catholic students when they do not practice Catholicism.

I know there are INC schools, they even have a college, I think. Others I'm not aware of but I guess that's more economics than anything,  When you only have 100 Jehovahs in your town, it may not sound like good business to have a dedicated school for Jehovahs.  Muslims, I'm not aware either.  
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:20 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #459 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:25 PM »
Honestly, sir, it's hard to have a discussion with someone who has trouble with reading comprehension, much less rational thinking. It's either that, or you're deliberately misinterpreting words to suit your thinking.

Let's take the quote "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."

Does that make any claims about the origin of atheism?

Honestly, it's hard to have a discussion with someone who has trouble with answering a very simple question. or they just indirectly answer the question to suit their thinking.

Question: When and where atheism originate?
Answer: "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."

the question is simple and the answer is somehow different??? i think an apropriate answer is time (era) and place.... hmmm maybe atheist really dont know where and when ahteism originate???

The absence of a known author and time of origin of such a highly embraced philosophy is a strange phenomenon.

hmmmm... maybe any atheist will be proud to say that their philosophy originate from the monkeys.   ??? ???


But to imply because the Bible says the Earth must only be 6,000+ years old therefore all of scientific knowledge about cosmology, earth sciences, and evolution are false is, well, hard to acknowledge. Do you, sir, also believe that Jesus rode on dinosaurs?

scientific knowledge or a "leap of faith"


NOT ALL SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION

The average evolutionist would have us believe that all TRUE scientists accept Darwin's theory as fact. Sir John Huxley, grandson of Thomas Huxley, wrote the following in 1959:

"The point to make about Darwin's theory of evolution is that it is no longer a theory, but a fact. No serious scientist would deny the fact that evolution has occurred, just as he would not deny the fact that the earth goes around the sun." (Tax, Sol, Ed. "Evolution After Darwin," Issues in Evolution, Chicago University Press, 1960, Vol. 3, p. 41.)

See how the system works? A scientist cannot be recognized as a SERIOUS scientist unless he REJECTS THE BIBLE and RECEIVES EVOLUTION. Well, there have been, and still are, MANY serious scientists who do not believe in evolution. For example, Dr. Albert Fleischman, Professor of Zoology at the University of Erlangen in Germany, says, "The Darwinian theory of evolution has not a single fact to confirm it in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but purely the product of the imagination."

Professor L.T. More, of the University of Chicago, says, "Unfortunately for Darwin's future reputation, everyone of his arguments is contradicted by fact."

Professor A.C. Steward, from the Cambridge University, says, "A student who takes an impartial retrospect soon discovers that the fossil record raises more problems than it solves."

Dr. Austin Clark, F.R.G.S., of the American Geophysical Union, opposes evolution by saying, "The great groups of animal life do not merge into one another. They are and have been fixed from the beginning."

So the Bible believer must understand that he is not alone in his stand against Darwin's foolish theory. There have always been a few scientists around who were honest and open-minded enough to consider all the facts and take an unpopular stand for the TRUTH, rather than IGNORE the facts and take a POPULAR stand for evolution. We should thank God for them.


HAS EVOLUTION BEEN PROVEN?

Over the years, being hard-pressed for real evidence, the evolutionists have managed to conjure up a number of "proofs" that Darwin's theory is a scientific fact. This so-called "evidence" is worshipped by all evolutionists, while all contrary evidence is ignored. Let's consider some of their evidence.

VESTIGIAL ORGANS are believed by evolutionists to be parts of the human body that are no longer needed. Therefore these useless body parts must be "left-overs" from our ancestors, the monkeys. These "useless" body parts include the appendix, the coccyx (tail bone), the pineal gland, the plica semilunaris, the tonsils, and the ear lobes.

Naturally, the facts are ignored. Many medical doctors agree that all of these organs have important functions in the human body, and aren't "vestigial organs" in any sense. The appendix contains a rich blood supply which serves as some defense against cancer. The tail bone isn't where your monkey tail used to be, as Darwinians believe, but it instead provides support for the muscles which control elimination. The pineal gland contains important hormones which the body needs. The plica semilunaris helps to keep foreign particles out of the eye, and the tonsils help to keep foreign particles out of your child's throat. The tonsils also help to keep infection from spreading. Yes, even the ear lobe has a purpose, for it helps to keep our ears warm during cold weather.

Another "proof" for evolution is found in the field of BIOCHEMISTRY. This is where scientists mix genes and chromosomes in their effort to prove relation between man and animal.

Is there any conclusive evidence? No there isn't. Any learned scientist should be familiar with the rather embarrassing test conclusions of Dr. Nutall back in 1904. Nutall's tests concluded that baboons and hoofed animals are related to whales, that pigs are related to tigers, and that black people are related to monkeys! There isn't one ounce of real evidence anywhere in the entire field of biochemistry which proves that men and animals are kin--just theories and wishful thinking.

EMBRYOLOGY is another field of study. This is where unborn embryos are studied in order to detect the preformed shape of humans and animals. This is the field where we find Haeckel talking about "ONTOGENY RECAPITULATES PHYLOGENY" This is the belief that every individual passes through the many evolutionary stages while still in the mother's womb. That is, you body took on the shape of an amoeba, then a paramecium, then a jelly fish, then a fish, then a bunch of other creatures during the nine months prior to your birth. Of course, this theory ignores the fact that respiratory systems develop LATE in the human embryo. So how did early mammal life exist without breathing? They've also ignored the fact that the head of an unborn baby is larger than the body, which is NOT the case with fish.

Professor Waldo Sumway, of Stephens Institute of Technology, says that "There is never a time in the development of a mammal when it could have been mistaken for a fish or reptile."

Now we come to the wonderful world of TAXONOMY, where cartoon charts are used to artificially classify bones in order to "prove" evolution. This is where evolutionists develop a "disneyland" mentally and construct a chart which shows the earth to be about 4.5 billion years old. Then they proceed to divide this chart up into various time frames containing hundreds of millions of years each. As new discoveries are found, the scientists conveniently place them at selected places on the chart.

This would be a dandy little system, except for one minor problem: THEY'VE NEVER PROVEN THE ORIGINAL CHART! It's nothing more than blind guesswork. No one has ever proven that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. The chart is NOT scientific. In fact, many scientists believe that the earth isn't over 6,000 to 10,000 years old! Of course, all opposing views are ignored by evolutionary scientists, for they need a nice big time period in which to place their new findings. You've heard of people "buying time?" Well, evolutionists just DREAM IT UP.

Another "proof" for evolution is COMPARATIVE ANATOMY, the belief that similar bone structures prove animal kin through evolution. That is, if two different animals have similar bone structures, then they must have evolved from the same original ancestors. Of course, this is more

nonsense. Any scientist knows perfectly well that many such bone structures are produced by entirely DIFFERENT GENES, thus proving that they are in NO WAY RELATED! In fact, if similar bone structure proves anything, it proves that these animals were created by the same God!

The sixth argument used to support evolution is the so-called FOSSIL EVIDENCE. The evolutionist believes that the fossil record proves a progressive evolution of the species over millions of years, beginning with non-living matter. This non-living matter supposedly evolves into protozoans, and the protozoans evolve into metazoan invertebrates, which evolve into vertebrate fishes. The fishes evolve into amphibians, which evolve into reptiles, which evolve into birds. The birds then evolve into fur-bearing quadrupeds (animals with 4 legs), and these quadrupeds evolve into apes, and the apes evolve into man.

Now for those who actually believe such a fable, we have a question: WHERE ARE THE TRANSITIONAL FORMS? If all of those life forms survived by changing into higher life forms, then would someone please show us one living example of this today? Where can we observe a reptile who is slowly changing into a bird? How about a bird who is turning into a four-legged animal? This is one of the strongest arguments against evolution: NO TRANSITIONAL FORMS. Even Darwin realized this in his "Origin of the Species" when he said that "this is the most obvious of the many objections which may be argued against it." (Vol. 2, 6th Ed. p. 49)

Yes, it certainly is. The more the fossil record builds, the weaker the theory of evolution becomes, because the needed transitional forms are NOT BEING FOUND to link the species! They never will be found, because the species are NOT LINKED (I Cor. 15:38-39).

The evolutionist also runs into another problem when he considers WHERE and HOW many fossils are found. The devout evolutionist subscribes to the belief that things are pretty much the same as always. He believes that there have been no major world catastrophes to wipe out animal life, but that various species have become extinct as a result of failing to adapt to their environment. The problem with this is the stubborn fact that there are many burial sites around the world which are literally paved with fossils! Often times such fossils are found in a totally different climate from that in which they once lived. Mammoths have been found frozen, preserved perfectly in ice in Northern Siberia and Alaska. Many of these are very large and strong animals, which evolutionists claim should have survived and overcame any obstacles. BUT THEY DIDN'T! What happened? Why did they die out? How can evolution explain this? Evolution CAN'T explain it. Evolution IGNORES it. It is explained in Genesis chapters 6, 7 and 8--the Flood.

Before moving on to our next section, a few words should be said about the various "ape men" that have been found and placed neatly on the fictional cartoon chart in standard text books. A few simple cases will be more than enough to show the reader that Anthropology is not without it's humor.

In 1922, a bunch of bones were found in Nebraska by a man named Harold Cook. After studying the upper and lower jaws and the teeth of some thirty animals, a complete ape known as Ramapithecus was constructed on the basis of ONE TOOTH! Years later, the entire skeleton from which the tooth came was found. It turned out to be an extinct species of pig.

Dr. Eugene Dubois discovered the famous Java Man (Pithecanthropus erectus) in 1891. This "great discovery" consisted of a small piece of the top of a skull, a fragment of a left thigh bone, and three molar teeth. But, instead of being found all together, these remains were found in an area of about seventy feet, and they were found over about a year's time. They were also found in an old river bed with other assorted extinct animal bones. This, of course, presents a number of problems for Java Man. How can the "experts" be so sure that these remains all came from the same being? Better yet, how do such bones survive for 750,000 years without decaying? Where's the EVIDENCE to PROVE these theories? We know what the scientists want to believe about these findings, but WHERE'S THE PROOF?

Piltdown man was discovered by Charles Dawson in 1912. Dawson claimed to have found some bones, some teeth, and even some primitive implements in a gravel pit in Piltdown, Sussex, England. He took them to a British museum where anthropologists claimed that they were 500,000 years old. Textbooks throughout the world then proclaimed Piltdown Man as the greatest find to date. Then in October of 1956, Reader's Digest EXPOSED this finding as "The Great Piltdown Hoax." The bones where found to be fraudulent. The jaw bone was proven to have belonged to an ape which had died only FIFTY YEARS before (not 500,000). The teeth had been filed down, and both, teeth and bones, had been discovered with bichromate of potash to cover up their true identity! So much for Piltdown Man.

The so-called Neanderthal Man was discovered around 1900 in a cave in the Neanderthal Valley near Dusseldorf, Germany. Naturally, he was hailed as another great "missing link." Since that time, it has been proven that Neanderthal wasn't an ape-man at all. He turned out to be a fully erect human being with a cranial capacity of over 13% more than that of normal man. Today, he is classified as "Homo Sapiens" (completely human). The "missing link" is still missing.

Finally, we come to Lucy, a 40% skeleton found in Ethiopia by D.C. Johanson in the 70's. Johanson claimed that "Lucy" had walked on two legs, because of the "angle of the thigh bone and the flattened surface at it's knee joint" (National Geographic, December, 1976). However, the knee joint was badly crushed; so Johanson's conclusion is mere speculation. Anatomist Charles Oxnard said the "Lucy" did NOT walk upright, at least not in the same manner as humans. The chimpanzee DOES spend some time walking upright, so this was probably just another ape.

Now this is the kind of "evidence" which supports evolution. This is what a child is taught in the public school system and in the state universities as "scientific fact." This is what the Bible labels as "science falsely so called" (I Tim. 6:20).

There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #460 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:26 PM »
ANYTHING BUT THE TRUTH

Evolutionists have their entire lives and reputations resting upon Darwin's theory. They're committed to their religion, just as any true Christian is committed to his. If an evolutionist changes his views, then he denies and forsakes his fellow scientists and former educators. He becomes a "black sheep," loses his job, his reputation, and his social standing. Since he has studied and worked his entire life to get where he is, he isn't about to throw it all away. So the committed evolutionist chooses to strive harder and harder in his effort to disprove the Genesis account. He will ignore all facts which support Special Creation. He is not open to anything other than "evidence" to prove his theory. All evidence which proves CONTRARY to his theory is discarded and ignored. A fine example of this behavior can be found in the work of Dr. George Wald, Novel Peace Prize winner for Science in 1967. Dr. Wald says the following:

"When if comes to the origin of life on this earth, there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation (evolution). There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years ago, but that leads us only to one other conclusion: That of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds (personal reasons); therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance." (Dennis Lindsay, "The Dinosaur Dilemma," Christ for the Nations, Vol. 35, No. 8, November, 1982, pp. 4-5, 14.)

So Darwin's theory is commonly accepted as a scientific fact, NOT because it can be proven, but rather because it is the ONLY ALTERNATIVE TO BELIEVING THE GENESIS ACCOUNT OF CREATION. The evolutionist has gotten himself into a trap where he must spend the rest of his life running from God.
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline vx2

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #461 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:32 PM »

If we have several sects nowadays and several places for worships which they were able to build, why can't they have their own school? Like school exclusively for Muslims, Jehova.INC etc. It's kinda ironic to have a different sect joining catholic students when they do not practice Catholicism.

I still believe that education should be non-secular and I say that as a believer. Mixing religion and education is volatile chemistry, impeding the growth of a child's cognitive and conceptualization functions and only blurs his faith.

« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:33 PM by vx2 »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #462 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 09:51 PM »
Again, wondering why our Bible has several versions? Was it a product of hearsays and belief of different people during those days? Reason for the numerous alterations?

indeed, satan is successful for diverting/alternate the truth.
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010 at 10:01 PM by dpogs »
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #463 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 10:00 PM »
naisip ko lang ang salitang "atheist".

even a word "atheist" cannot exist without the word "theist"


a + theist = atheist

atheist minus(-) theist = a

There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #464 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 10:58 PM »
Question: When and where atheism originate?

i think an apropriate answer is time (era) and place.... hmmm maybe atheist really dont know where and when ahteism originate???
I hate repeating myself, so this is the last time I'll even acknowledge that question. Read up on anthropology of religion. If you think atheism was born with the French revolution, then you're only thinking about the term itself—not the general idea of non-belief in gods or a God.

Animism and ancestor worship, both implicit forms of atheism (or forms of non-theism, if you want to be pedantic) are the earliest spiritual belief systems and predate any formal religion. Even early Christianity venerated the dead, which led to veneration of saints and their relics.

Do you know where and how your religion originated? Do you know how various scripture and other books eventually formed the canonical Bible? Are you aware of any Gnostic traditions or Hellenistic philosophies that found their way into Christian theology?

Or maybe these were never discussed in Sunday school, so they must be the works of Satan, right?

Quote
The absence of a known author and time of origin of such a highly embraced philosophy is a strange phenomenon.
Would you claim there's a single author, and time of origin, of the Bible? Even just the authorship and origin of the Gospel of John is debated.

Quote
hmmmm... maybe any atheist will be proud to say that their philosophy originate from the monkeys.   ??? ???
Your attempts at ad hominem are humorous, for someone who believes that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

It's late and I'm too tired to even begin to address the rest of your creationist copy and paste.

Here's some reading for those capable of critical thinking for themselves: look up "ring species" and how they relate to speciation and micro-evolution.
« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2010 at 11:21 PM by alistair »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #465 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 12:00 AM »
Animism and ancestor worship, both implicit forms of atheism (or forms of non-theism, if you want to be pedantic) are the earliest spiritual belief systems and predate any formal religion.

this was already explained by The Bible

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
"



how will the atheist explain that our ancestors (deprived of the Bible, without knowledge of religion) decided to worship an "unknown god"?

our ancestors were aware that there is a supreme being, much more powerful than nature.

Just as God gives infants the natural instinct to suckle the breast without them having to be taught to do so, He also establishes in every human the instinctive knowledge of His existence and the ability to clearly discern it through the light of nature.
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #466 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 12:11 AM »
I wonder if atheists can discern good from evil. If you opt to follow the right path, why do you do it?
What laws inhibit your evil side from taking over?

Atheists do good because they simply want to do good. They don't need an old man in the sky who's gonna send them to hell for masturbating in order to scare them into doing good work.

Quote
Or maybe these were never discussed in Sunday school, so they must be the works of Satan, right?

That reminds me of Kathy Bates' character in The Waterboy ("BENJAMIN FRANKLIN IS THE DEVIL!!!!!").

Here's one of my favorite standup comedian, Patton Oswalt's (you may know him as the voice of Remy the Rat in Ratatouille very funny explanation about the origin of religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFrWe1zk4g

Offline choy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #467 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 05:29 AM »
I prefer and I should have called it Pre-Vatican II Catholicsm. 

Traditional Catholicism as what some people refer to it

Offline choy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #468 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 05:40 AM »
Question:

Is there a catholic school that will require students to read and tackle the bible from cover to cover?

FWIR, the bible was only taught by verses.

Again, wondering why our Bible has several versions? Was it a product of hearsays and belief of different people during those days? Reason for the numerous alterations?

If we have several sects nowadays and several places for worships which they were able to build, why can't they have their own school? Like school exclusively for Muslims, Jehova.INC etc. It's kinda ironic to have a different sect joining catholic students when they do not practice Catholicism.

probably not.  Catholicism is not based solely on the Bible but also on Sacred Tradition and the Authority of the Church as well, both of which came before the Bible

the different versions of the bible come about because of the different interpretations of the text.  remember that language evolves very quickly.  a lot of the words that people use in the 70s and 80s aren't even used today (bagets, jeprox, etc.) so in the interest of keeping the text modern and understandable to the current generation, there are continous efforts to keep the text modern.

there are many private religious schools around the world that cater to people of a particular faith.  in the Philippines, don't forget that the INC has New Era.  and there are many Protestant private schools as well

Offline choy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #469 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 05:42 AM »
Atheists do good because they simply want to do good. They don't need an old man in the sky who's gonna send them to hell for masturbating in order to scare them into doing good work.

what is the basis of good if not God?

also, again you're approaching this the wrong way, i'm hoping you read my earlier explanation about this

That reminds me of Kathy Bates' character in The Waterboy ("BENJAMIN FRANKLIN IS THE DEVIL!!!!!").

Here's one of my favorite standup comedian, Patton Oswalt's (you may know him as the voice of Remy the Rat in Ratatouille very funny explanation about the origin of religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFrWe1zk4g

can't deny that some people take religion in a whole 'nother level.  that is why the Church is important in keeping the right teachings and people are not left to their own faculties, lest abuse and heresies stem from these
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2010 at 05:56 AM by choy »

Offline indie boi

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #470 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 06:54 AM »
@dpogs and av_phile1 - will catholics be saved? is the catholic God the same as the christian God?  ::) ;D

oh btw as ive previously posted, im catholic. how about the both of you? ( i assume you are christians. mind posting here, just exactly what type of christian? ie..protestant baptist born-agains? etc) tnxalot.

* indieboi and me, asked ahobbit what his religion was. seems he "disappeared"

av_phile1 answered the question. Has dpogs answered already?

Offline choy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #471 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 08:01 AM »
I am not aware of any Catholic school that tackles the Bible cover to cover,  Even the parish school my son attended here in multinational did not even tackle the Cathechism which I recall I had as a kid when the Parrish school I attended was still ran by Belgiian missionaries. This is actually my complaint about modern catholic schools.  The Catholic Church in this country seems to have gone complacently ignorant about the effects of those TV evangelical shows like Ang Dating Daan or INC fulfilling this role and giving some wrong interpretations of the Bible than doing it themselves in their own schools. 

for Catholics, the Bible isn't the teaching authority (how can a book be a teaching authority) but the Church itself, which was established by Christ

the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) is the primary teaching tool of the Church.  i agree with you, this one should be universally taught in all Catholic schools.  as is, most schools now that call themselves Catholic schools aren't Catholic schools anymore, but private schools that are in it for the money, and just capitalize on the Catholic name and "branding" (naming their school after a saint or Jesus or an event in the Bible) so as they can use this as marketing

most religion teachers aren't even Catechists or someone from a religous order (nun, religious brother, priest).  some are just plain teachers who follow the teaching plan

Offline oweidah

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #472 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 08:51 AM »
av_phile1 answered the question. Has dpogs answered already?

he pm'd me ;D
@sir dpogs, paki-pm din si sir indieboi tnx
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2010 at 08:55 AM by ojof00l »

Offline indie boi

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #473 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 10:30 AM »
Got the PM. I'll respectfully answer it here though.

Believe me, I admire professions of faith but hopefully you also understand that I cannot fathom why you should choose to keep your denomination private when it is fundamental in truly understanding your opinions and knowing where you come from, so to speak. Av_phile revealed that he is more into pre-Vatican II Catholicism, and it really revealed a lot. At least now I know where he's coming from when he posts about his beliefs.

Since it is only fair to answer my own question, here it is. I've been raised a devout catholic and even went to catholic schools. I even seriously entertained entering the priesthood before I went to college. But I've always been a free thinker so I began to question catholicism, faith and religion in general. Bottomline is, I still go to church, I consider the Black Nazarene my patron and I'm a Marian to the bone, but I'm not afraid to question dogma and I believe I won't burn in hell for doing so.

In my opinion, I would rather question faith and God first then believe, than to blindly follow something without questioning anything. I think that I have a healthier relationship with God because of this.

To quote Mahatma Gandhi -- "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Offline indie boi

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #474 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 10:31 AM »
And before this starts a flame war. It's my personal opinion. Not attacking anyone personally. No offense meant.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #475 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 11:02 AM »
but I'm not afraid to question dogma and I believe I won't burn in hell for doing so.

In my opinion, I would rather question faith and God first then believe, than to blindly follow something without questioning anything. I think that I have a healthier relationship with God because of this.


Questioning dogma is not the same as abandoning or repudiating it.  I myself have passed that period of skepticism. It was a healthy mental exercise.  

But faith is a gift, a blessing from God.  It is not the result of getting satisfactory answers from any kind of skepticsm.   If everything in religion were provable, tangible, visible, or comprehensible, where or what do you put your belief or faith in?  If there were no other-worldly mysteries in a religion, how would it be any different from a rotary club or a homeowner's association?  Why even bother?


"Blessed are those who did not see, but believe" - the essence of faith.


Quote
To quote Mahatma Gandhi -- "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Exactly. Good thing it's not the Christians you're worshiping.  ;D
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2010 at 12:17 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #476 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 12:42 PM »
Wow, a lot happened since last night. Young Earth Creationist din pala si dpogs, pareho sila ni aHobbit.

A lot of what you cut and pasted has also been added to the discussion by aHobbit. But some of the premises are even wrong. For example, evolution never clamed that mammals evolved from birds. If they're going to disprove a premise, at least disprove the correct premise. And I suppose mentioning animals like Tiktaalik won't really make a difference to people who don't believe in evolution.

I have a question though for dpogs and other YEC. Do you even watch any of the documentary channels? History, Discovery, NGC--every other program must be so heretical that it's not even amusing. Programs about planets, geology, earthquakes, volcanoes, biology, practically anything that deals with the past I'm guessing will, in the course of the hour, say something that will disagree with your belief. Would you even listen to/believe in science after seeing all of those glaring mistakes? These aren't even little mistakes where it's 200% or even 1000% off. At least in the case of the age of the earth, they are 45 million percent off! How can we believe anything they say.

Offline bass_nut

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #477 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 01:10 PM »
"Blessed are those who did not see, but believe" - the essence of faith.


reminds me of Saint Augustine.... his willingness to accept that much of our belief about the world must as a matter of practical necessity rest upon trust and authority


hence, x2 !!!  8)

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #478 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 01:17 PM »
Wow, a lot happened since last night. Young Earth Creationist din pala si dpogs, pareho sila ni aHobbit.

A lot of what you cut and pasted has also been added to the discussion by aHobbit. But some of the premises are even wrong. For example, evolution never clamed that mammals evolved from birds. If they're going to disprove a premise, at least disprove the correct premise. And I suppose mentioning animals like Tiktaalik won't really make a difference to people who don't believe in evolution.

I have a question though for dpogs and other YEC. Do you even watch any of the documentary channels? History, Discovery, NGC--every other program must be so heretical that it's not even amusing. Programs about planets, geology, earthquakes, volcanoes, biology, practically anything that deals with the past I'm guessing will, in the course of the hour, say something that will disagree with your belief. Would you even listen to/believe in science after seeing all of those glaring mistakes? These aren't even little mistakes where it's 200% or even 1000% off. At least in the case of the age of the earth, they are 45 million percent off! How can we believe anything they say.

one question though: was evolution been proved? this missing link been found? even Darwin admit that loophole in evolution.

honestly... everytime i watched Discovery channel, read national geographics my faith in God grows. i am always amazed how nature behave itself, the diversity of nature, almost work in perfect harmony (then comes human intervention destroying nature)... the vastness of space... how mathematically perfect/precision in terms of planet displacement, gravity, land mass, orbits, revolution... etc... all of these must be a work of something greater than us. all of these is a perfect creation of God. i just cannot believe paanong nagawa ng tao (those so called atheist scientist) na idivert ang attention natin how magnificently God created the heaven and earth to a "Big Bang Theory".

especially when it comes to human anatomy... i just cant believe paanong ang randomization ay nagresulta ng ganitong kagandang katawan... our human brain much powerful than any computer built... every part of our cell have a function... how our body produce anti-bodies to protect us...whew... truly God is Master Creator of this world. we all know that nothing can be made from nothing. there must be a Master Creator.

with these kind of evidence, atheist still choose to ignore the presence of God.
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #479 on: Feb 17, 2010 at 01:22 PM »
Evolution didn't say there is no God.