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Home Theater => Audio => Tubes => Topic started by: qguy on Aug 25, 2012 at 12:07 PM
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Need to change some capacitors (the small ones from 1uf/25v to 220uf/35v) on an amplifier, Does Deeco sell Elna capacitors ?
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Try RS or Element14 bro...
In terms of electrical performance, you could also look at Panasonic FS and FM series.
Happy hunting.
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Try RS or Element14 bro...
In terms of electrical performance, you could also look at Panasonic FS and FM series.
Happy hunting.
talagang naka-bold pa ha? ;)
tyr narnia or lalaland caps. it can magically transform the sound of your amp. ;D ;D ;D
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talagang naka-bold pa ha? ;)
tyr narnia or lalaland caps. it can magically transform the sound of your amp. ;D ;D ;D
saan meron nyan? ;D
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talagang naka-bold pa ha? ;)
tyr narnia or lalaland caps. it can magically transform the sound of your amp. ;D ;D ;D
nililinaw ko lang brader... ;D
pang pantaserye yan ah... ;D ;D ;D
saan meron nyan? ;D
ganyan yata gamit ni enteng kabisote galing sa kaharian ni ina magenta... :D
ang gulo gulo niyo serious si qguy! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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eto serious at related: ano nagyayari sa caps habang naluluma: tumataas o bumababa ang capacitance? other changes in parameters?
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eto serious at related: ano nagyayari sa caps habang naluluma: tumataas o bumababa ang capacitance? other changes in parameters?
in my experience bumababa siya roughly mga less 5% of the published capacitance. also, they usually form at their operating voltages, for example you use a 63V rated cap to operate at 50V only, over time the cap "forms" to this operating voltage, so if you will increase the voltage it is a good practice to "reform" first.
old/vintage/unused equipments should be slowly reformed first or kaboom.
tony has posted here a reforming gear many moons ago...
if you expect a high frequency/rate of ripple (like those with SMPS), choose caps wisely to give the best electrical performance and handle the ripple current. Ripple can cause heat and kill the caps too.
HTH
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Thanks I think will stick with ELNA as these were the ones installed in the amp and want to keep it original.
Try RS or Element14 bro...
In terms of electrical performance, you could also look at Panasonic FS and FM series.
Happy hunting.
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in my experience bumababa siya roughly mga less 5% of the published capacitance.
baka naman buo pa yan kung 5% lang. within tolerance pa.
found a few old cheap caps from crossover networks. ung mga 4.7 more than 5 na, 3.3s read around 4, while the 2.2s reached almost 3. actual values averaged 50% above printed values. guess that answers my question. pero parang may mali. kasi kung pataas sya pag naluma, why do old ecaps make amps sound bad? ??? ??? ???
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ecaps are notorious for their cap tolerance......i would avoid them in ac coupling and timing circuits if i could...
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baka naman buo pa yan kung 5% lang. within tolerance pa.
found a few old cheap caps from crossover networks. ung mga 4.7 more than 5 na, 3.3s read around 4, while the 2.2s reached almost 3. actual values averaged 50% above printed values. guess that answers my question. pero parang may mali. kasi kung pataas sya pag naluma, why do old ecaps make amps sound bad? ??? ??? ???
my first diy ss amp, an sx-770 clone used all ecaps in the signal path and to my recollection they really rock.....
i guess as they age they get into trouble....so films are better in this regard....
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dahil CAPS na rin ang usapan pwede ko seguro itanong ito dito....
Ano po ba ang maximum age ng caps na kailangan ng palitan kahit working condition pa? particularly, sa power amp output board.
balak ko kasi e-recap ang aking 15+ years na power amp, rubycon ang naka-install sa ngayon. Ano po ba match na replacement? TIA
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10 years is just about right imho...depending on use....the thing with ecaps is that they have these acqeous liquids, mostly glycols, inside, and the metal to rubber seals can not be expected to hold on for-ever, so that dry-ups are almost always inevitable...
standards are 85* and 105*C ratings, i always choose the latter....
and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y......DA and DF are good figures of merits, they are found on datasheets anyway....
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15 years,..should be ok, unless tinakpan yung top cover.hehehe
yung recap ko na receiver, 1976 model.
dahil CAPS na rin ang usapan pwede ko seguro itanong ito dito....
Ano po ba ang maximum age ng caps na kailangan ng palitan kahit working condition pa? particularly, sa power amp output board.
balak ko kasi e-recap ang aking 15+ years na power amp, rubycon ang naka-install sa ngayon. Ano po ba match na replacement? TIA
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yung Nichicon, are these available sa Deeco ?, I was advised to use this brand. Any other brand na reliable just in case these are not avaialbe
my parts list , how much kaya abutin ito
Protection Circuit
2 0.22 25v/50vUp
2 470 6.3v
1 2.2 50v
1 47 50v
Qty Capacitance Voltage Rating
Power Supply Circuit A
2 220 80v/100v
2 47 16v
2 47 35V/50v
1 10 35v
1 1 50v
1 100 35v
1 220 25v
2 47 10v
1 100 25v
1 2.2 50v
1 220 16v
Qty Capacitance Voltage Rating
Power Supply Circuit B
1 2200 25v
2 470 80v/100v
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Thanks for the fast response....
10 years is just about right imho...depending on use....the thing with ecaps is that they have these acqeous liquids, mostly glycols, inside, and the metal to rubber seals can not be expected to hold on for-ever, so that dry-ups are almost always inevitable...
standards are 85* and 105*C ratings, i always choose the latter....
and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y......DA and DF are good figures of merits, they are found on datasheets anyway....
the caps mentioned are rated 100uf/100v, 100uf/25v & 10uf/25v...
15 years,..should be ok, unless tinakpan yung top cover.hehehe
yung recap ko na receiver, 1976 model.
still working pa naman... ;D I'm thinking that it will improve the present performance once it's recapped or will sound just the same.... ::)
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baka naman buo pa yan kung 5% lang. within tolerance pa.
found a few old cheap caps from crossover networks. ung mga 4.7 more than 5 na, 3.3s read around 4, while the 2.2s reached almost 3. actual values averaged 50% above printed values. guess that answers my question. pero parang may mali. kasi kung pataas sya pag naluma, why do old ecaps make amps sound bad? ??? ??? ???
that's for ecaps sir, pero like I said ymmv and it depends on a lot of things like temperature. once thing is for sure, ecaps do age.
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ecaps are notorious for their cap tolerance......i would avoid them in ac coupling and timing circuits if i could...
a bit OT but I would agree a million times about not using ecaps in timing circuits. I always use tantalum types but if I can avoid them all together I'd rather use a crystal na lang...
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a bit OT but I would agree a million times about not using ecaps in timing circuits. I always use tantalum types but if I can avoid them all together I'd rather use a crystal na lang...
+1
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and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y......DA and DF are good figures of merits, they are found on datasheets anyway....
I believe you are aware of the incoming qualification of parts from various vendors to be used in a project eg power supply, amplifier etc. And that this process takes quite some time. Numerous parameters are tested and compared with other vendors.
Based on experience, no two vendors of similar components have exactly the same electrical performance. I believe you are also aware of this. Based on these, one can readily tabulate the manufacturing process + component test measurements + design application performance and assess brand x or brand y performance.
As such, it is incorrect to say that "and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y" because most of the time a certain brand will be better than the other brand for a certain component. Furthermore for a circuit code in the BOM, there is only one prime part and the rest ... sub-parts.
From this an approved vendor list and hierarchy in purchasing is made on various components. This becomes the protocol for buyers when purchasing components.
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commercial products are made with profit in mind......
the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......
it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....
so yes, in this regard brand x can be better than brand y in terms of cost......
besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....
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Based on experience, no two vendors of similar components have exactly the same electrical performance. I believe you are also aware of this. Based on these, one can readily tabulate the manufacturing process + component test measurements + design application performance and assess brand x or brand y performance.
are we talking space shuttle parts here?
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are we talking space shuttle parts here?
What is your point? This is the standard in parts selection in a typical company - Supplier Engineering, Component Engineering and Design Engineering departments are the main groups involved in parts selection and testing. Maybe you are not aware of this.
Supplier Engineering visit the factory of the vendor and to perform audit based on compliance to standards.
Component Engineering tests the parts based on their published performance (datasheet).
Design Engineering tests the parts on the actual circuit or product used.
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commercial products are made with profit in mind......
the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......
it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....
so yes, in this regard brand x can be getter than brand y in terms of cost......
besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....
My post is based on engineering. Since no two components are exactly the same their electrical performance differs in actual application. Correspondingly, their contribution to the output also differs. If used in a critical part of the circuit then it may have significant effect on the output. However, whether this can be significant or insignificant in the subjective viewpoint, I leave it to you.
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commercial products are made with profit in mind......
the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......
it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....
so yes, in this regard brand x can be getter than brand y in terms of cost......
besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....
Can a change in capacitor alter the sound reproduced (either better or worse)? Like higher or lower values? Different brands with different performance?
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Bigyan natin ng halimbawa iyung pagpili ng piyesa sa isang ordinaryong nag D DIY ...
Bisita sa Alexan, Deeco at iba't ibang shop para malaman ang kalakalan at magtanong tanong sa kaibigan o internet kung maayos ba ang mga itong tindahan -> Supplier Engineering
Bumili ng piyesa at at tignan kung mukhang ok sa anyo o kung meron mga gamit pang testing, i-testing kung pasado ba -> Component Engineering
Gamitin ang piyesa sa sirketo o sa produkto para ma-testing kung ok -> Design Engineering
Wala naman rocket science dito ah.
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Can a change in capacitor alter the sound reproduced (either better or worse)?
It depends.
Like higher or lower values?
Again, it depends.
Example #1:
Input cap. Change it to lower values and depending on the input impedance, you also alter the low end frequency response. Change it to a too high a value and you end up with a lot of output offsets and what not.
Example #2:
PSU Supply Filter. Change it to a lower value and ripple will increase. Change it to a too high a value and the Law of Diminishing returns will kick you in the butt, seriously, there is no limit as to how much you want to use but it's all for nothing once you exceed a certain limit.
So in essence, it really depends on the function of the cap and where it is used in the circuit. This is where all the laughter comes from when you read someone changing a cap and says magical things about it without even understanding what the heck it's function is.
Example #3:
Ceramic capacitors. Any self respecting designer would not use a ceramic cap as a miller compensation cap or a feedback cap. You will read all sorts of bad things about ceramic caps from audiophiles and airbags but why in the world do those cap manufacturers still make them?
Because they are very good at filtering high frequency harmonics.
Now enter an audiophile airbag DIYer who sees those fugly ceramic caps and starts ordering online Wima and other film caps and readies his soldering iron. Geez I crack myself up.
Different brands with different performance?
Depends on the datasheet.
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so yes, in this regard brand x can be getter than brand y in terms of cost......
Not only on cost but also in electrical performance.
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Not all ceramic capacitors are bad. NPO/COG ceramic capacitors are good. Many have no problem using NPO/COG ceramic capacitors in feedback compensation and clock circuits. I do not know why other designers would not use this capacitor in feedback compensation.
Maybe those orange or brown colored ceramic capacitors like X7R or Y5P (specially Y5P). These are not that good. So it maybe is a good idea to have them replaced.
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It depends.
Again, it depends.
Example #1:
Input cap. Change it to lower values and depending on the input impedance, you also alter the low end frequency response. Change it to a too high a value and you end up with a lot of output offsets and what not.
Example #2:
PSU Supply Filter. Change it to a lower value and ripple will increase. Change it to a too high a value and the Law of Diminishing returns will kick you in the butt, seriously, there is no limit as to how much you want to use but it's all for nothing once you exceed a certain limit.
So in essence, it really depends on the function of the cap and where it is used in the circuit. This is where all the laughter comes from when you read someone changing a cap and says magical things about it without even understanding what the heck it's function is.
Example #3:
Ceramic capacitors. Any self respecting designer would not use a ceramic cap as a miller compensation cap or a feedback cap. You will read all sorts of bad things about ceramic caps from audiophiles and airbags but why in the world do those cap manufacturers still make them?
Because they are very good at filtering high frequency harmonics.
Now enter an audiophile airbag DIYer who sees those fugly ceramic caps and starts ordering online Wima and other film caps and readies his soldering iron. Geez I crack myself up.
Depends on the datasheet.
;) At least it's clear that there is a possibility ng change in sonic signature.
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PSU filter. An increase in the bulk capacitor means higher inrush current. This may damage your fuse if you are not careful (i = C x dV/dt).
Ceramic capacitors. Designers will use ceramic capacitors depending on where ceramic capacitors are best eg clock circuit, high frequency filter etc There are many types of ceramic capacitors NPO/COG, X7R, Y5P etc. What to use depends on the application.
Most tweakers I have seen do not change the ceramic capacitors. It is usually the input capacitor, bulk capacitor and output coupling capacitor that is changed. None of these use ceramic capacitors.
There is an article written by Walt Jung of Analog Devices discussing the merits of the various capacitors. He also discusses changing the output capacitors and its electrical improvements. I believe some people have used this as a basis for doing changes in the output coupling capacitors of their audio source.
Link to the article ...
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf
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Branded names already added cost to its product because of reputations and some technical factors:
- Materials used
- How it's made.......(So much to discuss on this)
- Where it's made
- Accuracy
- Test done
- Reviews done
etch..
99% is definitely different from 99.9999%
BTT: Why not try Mundorf, blackgate..... ::)
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too many caps to change, its a vintage receiver.
BTT: Why not try Mundorf, blackgate..... ::)
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Can a change in capacitor alter the sound reproduced (either better or worse)? Like higher or lower values? Different brands with different performance?
does it matter? not to me...... :D
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does it matter? not to me...... :D
Yun lang. :D
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I think depends on the application
For crossover network, may difference as it would change the crossover points
For power supply, jojo mentioned, may advantage pero cost would be an issue.
As for sound quality, I think ang safest answer is to get tight tolerances, specially if its going to be used for LEFT and RIGHT channels. just imagine a +/- 20 % tolererance would mean a maximum difference of 40 percent from left and right channels.
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I think depends on the application
For crossover network, may difference as it would change the crossover points
For power supply, jojo mentioned, may advantage pero cost would be an issue.
As for sound quality, I think ang safest answer is to get tight tolerances, specially if its going to be used for LEFT and RIGHT channels. just imagine a +/- 20 % tolererance would mean a maximum difference of 40 percent from left and right channels.
yes, for cross-overs, a change from ecap to film types is a definite step in the right direction, not nescessarily to better the sound but to prolong the usefull life of the thing....
in the past i used ecaps in my crossovers simply because films were unobtanium in those days.....today there is no more excuse not to use film caps....
oh and i wouldn't worry much about capacitor tolerance......the speaker impedance vary all over the place with frequency anyway...capacitor tolerance in this sense in meaningless...design of cross-overs assume resistive loads anyway...
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I tried searching at RS and Element14
The parts I need are there, but theres a minimum of 5 to 50 pcs for the some part, some parts I need just 1 pc and there a minimum of 50 pcs ARGH !!!!, 5 PCS depending on cost is reasonable, but 50 pcs minimum, I dont understand ??? I guess target market is stores and such, Anyways I think I need to go to a brick and Mortar Store ? I heard may mga fake or generic capacitors, so can you recommend reputable brick and mortar stores ?
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That's the very reason I was veering you away and pointing you to online stores.
Unfortunately, they do pack things in 5's and even 50's.
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I just checked my capacitor list, out of 13 different types, only one exceeded 5 pcs, most of it is 1 and 2. I guess I am stuck with Brick and Mortar store. I guess Deeco would be my best bet.. any others ?
That's the very reason I was veering you away and pointing you to online stores.
Unfortunately, they do pack things in 5's and even 50's.
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I tried searching at RS and Element14
The parts I need are there, but theres a minimum of 5 to 50 pcs for the some part, some parts I need just 1 pc and there a minimum of 50 pcs ARGH !!!!, 5 PCS depending on cost is reasonable, but 50 pcs minimum, I dont understand ??? I guess target market is stores and such, Anyways I think I need to go to a brick and Mortar Store ? I heard may mga fake or generic capacitors, so can you recommend reputable brick and mortar stores ?
Yup, may mga fake nga na caps (pati mga transistor). You can also buy extra units if you want to test for matched pairs kung OC ka sa symmetry.
Nakakatakot:
(http://www.discovercircuits.com/dc-mag/Issue_4/Photos/FakeCapacitor1.jpg)
Mali na value, mali pa voltage rating.
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Example #2:
PSU Supply Filter. Change it to a lower value and ripple will increase. Change it to a too high a value and the Law of Diminishing returns will kick you in the butt, seriously, there is no limit as to how much you want to use but it's all for nothing once you exceed a certain limit.
not to mention blown fuse or diodes.
This is where all the laughter comes from when you read someone changing a cap and says magical things about it without even understanding what the heck it's function is.
i'd swear the narnia caps do wonders! ;D
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ecaps are notorious for their cap tolerance......i would avoid them in ac coupling and timing circuits if i could...
All capacitors with 20% tolerance are notorious. The issue with e-caps is the frequency vs capacitance. The capacitance is almost halved at around 10KHz. This is due to the high dissipation factor. Film capacitors excel in this area.
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not to mention blown fuse or diodes.
i'd swear the narnia caps do wonders! ;D
Matanong kita Sir. Bakit nga ba nasisira ang fuse kapag malaki ang capacitor? Tapos, bakit nadadamay pati diode samantalang mas mataas naman ang inrush rating (i^2 * t) ng diode sa fuse? Hindi ba dapat nauuna ang fuse masira? Kapag nasira ang fuse pati diode nadadamay? Tama ba?
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What is your point? This is the standard in parts selection in a typical company - Supplier Engineering, Component Engineering and Design Engineering departments are the main groups involved in parts selection and testing.
they do that just to select each capacitor in an amplifier? :o :o :o
Maybe you are not aware of this.
maybe yes maybe not. ;D ;D ;D
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they do that just to select each capacitor in an amplifier? :o :o :o
maybe yes maybe not. ;D ;D ;D
Pikit mata ba pinipili?
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Matanong kita Sir. Bakit nga ba nasisira ang fuse kapag malaki ang capacitor? Tapos, bakit nadadamay pati diode samantalang mas mataas naman ang inrush rating (i^2 * t) ng diode sa fuse? Hindi ba dapat nauuna ang fuse masira? Kapag nasira ang fuse pati diode nadadamay? Tama ba?
with your technical expertise i'm sure you know the answer. but for the benefit of others it's because the caps are initially "seen" by the upstream components as short circuits, kaya may possibility na masira ang fuse OR diode.
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Kaya ko nabanggit sobrang bihira nasisira ang diode sa paglaki ng capacitor. May ibang piyesa kasali kaya nasisira ang diode.
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Pikit mata ba pinipili?
baka nga dumadaan pa sa 3 departamento bago mapili bawat capacitor. tapos noted by the engineering manager, avp, vp, coo, ceo and finally the board approval. ;D ;D ;D
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I just checked my capacitor list, out of 13 different types, only one exceeded 5 pcs, most of it is 1 and 2. I guess I am stuck with Brick and Mortar store. I guess Deeco would be my best bet.. any others ?
whenever i go to deeco to look at caps, the ones on an ammo belt packs first get my attention...
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Pikit mata ba pinipili?
i hope not, pero ako pikit ang isang mata pag hinipan ko yung stocks ko na caps, maalikabok na kasi.... :D :D ;)
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Matanong kita Sir. Bakit nga ba nasisira ang fuse kapag malaki ang capacitor? Tapos, bakit nadadamay pati diode samantalang mas mataas naman ang inrush rating (i^2 * t) ng diode sa fuse? Hindi ba dapat nauuna ang fuse masira? Kapag nasira ang fuse pati diode nadadamay? Tama ba?
e yung output cap ng preamp ko malaki nga...pero hindi naman naputok ang fuse, saka walang umuusok.....wala naman kasing fuse eh.... :D :D :D o, huwag nyo akong tularan, unsafe yun....
iquantify mo kasi, pag masyadong general ang statement walang tamang sagot....
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correction.. I just check 14 elements and some item have no min !!!
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pero merong minimum total order?
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correction.. I just check 14 elements and some item have no min !!!
baka meron pic/s sir pa post naman... ;D
interesting kasi sa dami ng caps na kailangan mo.... :o
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e yung output cap ng preamp ko malaki nga...pero hindi naman naputok ang fuse, saka walang umuusok.....wala naman kasing fuse eh.... :D :D :D o, huwag nyo akong tularan, unsafe yun....
iquantify mo kasi, pag masyadong general ang statement walang tamang sagot....
Oo nga naman :D
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baka nga dumadaan pa sa 3 departamento bago mapili bawat capacitor. tapos noted by the engineering manager, avp, vp, coo, ceo and finally the board approval. ;D ;D ;D
Basahin mo iyung halimbawa ko sa page 1 kung saan isang tao lang ang kailangan. Siya na iyung lahat ng departamento at opisyales. Gayunpaman mayroon siyang sinusunood na patakaran :)
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pero merong minimum total order?
Just called no minimum order, but subject to delivery charge.
Physical inventory is in Singapore and US, 5-8 days for singapore based items and 10 -13 days for US based items
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pics ng ?
baka meron pic/s sir pa post naman... ;D
interesting kasi sa dami ng caps na kailangan mo.... :o
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pics ng ?
receiver nyo sir...
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No pics of the Power supply PCB s right now.. this is what i have
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff318/skinnercases/IMG_4053.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff318/skinnercases/IMG_4046.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff318/skinnercases/IMG_4048.jpg)
receiver nyo sir...
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ganda nga nyan sir.... :o
naisip ko tuloy yung aking akai na receiver ... pagmeron na akong time buksan ko rin... ;D
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Just called no minimum order, but subject to delivery charge.
Physical inventory is in Singapore and US, 5-8 days for singapore based items and 10 -13 days for US based items
i would imagine so.....i have yet to order anything from them.....pero i got a call from a staff, she sounded polite and asked if i needed anything or if another salesman called.....i suspect that their service is quite good...
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May issue ba if the capacitor is physically smaller but the same ratings for capacitance and voltage ?
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May issue ba if the capacitor is physically smaller but the same ratings for capacitance and voltage ?
applicable din 'ata dito yung "size does not matter" ... ::) but performance does.... :D
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applicable din 'ata dito yung "size does not matter" ... ::) but performance does.... :D
some girls also have that view.... :D :D :D
seriously, capacitor technology has grown by leaps and bounds.... ;D
inabutan ko pa yung caps na pag inalog mo ramdam mo yung liquid sa loob, wala na nyan ngayon..... :D
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I just realized and hirap pala magpalit ng parts pag ikaw may ari ng gamit hehehe .. brand, reliability, size and fake components comes into the picture... hehehe
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go with known brands and you can hardly go wrong.....get them from reliable sources and ease you mind.....
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Not sure if I have the patience to wait for 2 weeks for the parts from online store...
tempted to go to Deeco, just not sure if infiltrated na ng fake parts...
go with known brands and you can hardly go wrong.....get them from reliable sources and ease you mind.....
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not to mention blown fuse or diodes.
kaya nga naimbento ang Soft Start circuits. naman... ;D ;D ;D
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some girls also have that view.... :D :D :D
seriously, capacitor technology has grown by leaps and bounds.... ;D
inabutan ko pa yung caps na pag inalog mo ramdam mo yung liquid sa loob, wala na nyan ngayon..... :D
wag mo na masyado ikwento yun mga inabutan mo... baka mahalata... :D
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Not sure if I have the patience to wait for 2 weeks for the parts from online store...
tempted to go to Deeco, just not sure if infiltrated na ng fake parts...
Sa Alexan try mo din, so far wala pa naman ako nakita fake sa kanila...
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kaya nga naimbento ang Soft Start circuits. naman... ;D ;D ;D
During start-up (t = 0) the input only sees a short circuit due to the bulk capacitor. Immediately after switch is turned on there is a large current spike (inrush current, i = C x dV/dt, since t is almost 0 and i becomes very very large). At this time, the bulk capacitor is starting to charge. And at this time, there is still no sufficient voltage for the soft start circuit to be activated. So how can the soft start circuit work?
A way to control the inrush current is to put a thermistor in series (this is not a soft start circuit) with the AC line. However, it is still not enough to significantly reduce the inrush current. As such, there is still possibility of fuse blowing up.
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kaya nga naimbento ang Soft Start circuits. naman... ;D ;D ;D
schwinngg!!! ;D
maganda yung article ni pareng rod tungkol dyan: http://sound.westhost.com/articles/inrush.htm
While it is a fairly common suggestion (and used by some people), thermistors are completely useless in any equipment that draws a widely varying current during normal operation. Power amplifiers are a case in point
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A way to reduce inrush current is a thermistor. The article discusses the disadvantages of a thermistor in a power amplifier. How about other equipments? Still it can reduce inrush current - this is the point.
The question is how does the electronic soft start circuit work to reduce inrush current where there is barely enough supply voltage to turn it on during start-up?
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During start-up (t = 0) the input only sees a short circuit due to the bulk capacitor. Immediately after switch is turned on there is a large current spike (inrush current, i = C x dV/dt, since t is almost 0 and i becomes very very large). At this time, the bulk capacitor is starting to charge. And at this time, there is still no sufficient voltage for the soft start circuit to be activated. So how can the soft start circuit work?
Because it's in the primary.
A way to control the inrush current is to put a thermistor in series (this is not a soft start circuit) with the AC line. .
Yes yes yes, that's what the book said.
However, it is still not enough to significantly reduce the inrush current. As such, there is still possibility of fuse blowing up
The fuse or the thermistor itself can blow up too.
A way to reduce inrush current is a thermistor. The article discusses the disadvantages of a thermistor in a power amplifier. How about other equipments? Still it can reduce inrush current - this is the point.
We are talking about audio power amplifiers, yes? Of course it can, NTCs are designed to do specifically that.
Me, I, Myself, Mark or Rod didn't say it does not, but not for an equipment such as an audio power amplifier that has varying current during normal operation. That is the point.
However, if you are happy using it in real life, not on paper, then do so with indulgence.
The question is how does the electronic soft start circuit work to reduce inrush current where there is barely enough supply voltage to turn it on during start-up?
Because the electronic soft start does not rely on the supply voltage of the charging caps. So it doesn't matter if t=0 or if e=mc2, the soft start doesn't care - it's designed to be a separate entity.
I am sure you are already well aware of this.
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I beg the TS's pardon for all this OTs but here's another one. Just for the sake of clarity and understanding.
Below is a basic audio power amplifier with a power supply that has lots and lots of capacitance and NarniaTM diodes that money can buy.
On top of that eighteen pound toroidal transformer are two boards, the one on the right is an electronic soft start circuit. It has not blown any fuse, has not welded it's power switch's contacts, doesn't dim the lights during power On and most of all it doesn't use a thermistor.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/jojod818/DA%20Class%20AB%20Amp/IMG_6893.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/jojod818/DA%20Class%20AB%20Amp/Turn_The_Lights_On.jpg)
It is an existing and working testament that soft start circuits work.
Again, I hope the TS doesn't mind and I bid him the best of luck in hunting down his caps of choice.
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I am aware that you are referring to a soft start circuit in the primary.
Since you brought up soft start circuit to reduce inrush current, I am just curious how does it work out. In our work, we use soft start circuit but not in inrush current limiting.
Anyway, back to the topic. You can source your capacitors here ...
SPIN ELECTRONICS
#64 Kanlaon Street, Highway Hills, Mandaluyong City 1550
(near MRT Shaw Boulevard Station)
Tel nos 531-2029, 717-0947 and 717-0948
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I am aware that you are referring to a soft start circuit in the primary.
Since you brought up soft start circuit to reduce inrush current, I am just curious how does it work out. In our work, we use soft start circuit but no in inrush current limiting.
Very well, you'll have to go back to the basics for it's just basic Ohm's Law. To reduce current (inrush current for that matter), a resistance is introduced in the primary which reduces the amount of inrush current to a manageable level while at the same time giving the bulk filter capacitors enough charge during power up. Unlike a thermistor, this resistance is shorted out and taken out of the primary circuit after a brief, predetermined time.
This of course is a linear power supply, I am sure your line of work involves more complicated soft start and active inrush current limiting.
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Ok. Maraming salamat.
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kailngan pa bang imemorize yan? :D :D :D
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No worries about the OT, later check out my new thread, Where to buy Audiophile silver solder for capacitor soldering ::)
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You can also source your capacitors here. They have good quality and original capacitors.
WATSON ELECTRONIC CENTER
533 Florentino Torres cor Ronquillo Streets
Sta. Cruz, Metro Manila
Tel nos 736-9641, 345-8788, 345-8887
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No worries about the OT, later check out my new thread, Where to buy Audiophile silver solder for capacitor soldering ::)
just for backgrounders.....i use Hosiden from Watsons.....
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250356
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/75201-high-silver-solder.html
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is this walking distance from Shang ?
SPIN ELECTRONICS
#64 Kanlaon Street, Highway Hills, Mandaluyong City 1550
(near MRT Shaw Boulevard Station)
Tel nos 531-2029, 717-0947 and 717-0948
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Yes. About 5 to 10minutes. They are open from Mon to Fri however, it is best to call first so that they can ready your order. Best if you call from Mon to Thu as there stock person only works on these days.
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Thanks
Yes. About 5 to 10minutes. They are open from Mon to Fri however, it is best to call first so that they can ready your order. Best if you call from Mon to Thu as there stock person only works on these days.
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Pakisabi na lang ng "Hello" kay Ma'am Digna para sa akin. Matagal tagal ko na siyang hindi nababati.
Dagdagan ko lang ang nasabi ko tungkol sa thermistor (kasi nga may disadvantage sa power amplifier) sa may inrush current limit. Since hindi nga maganda na siya lang ... kaya ... mag-parallel na lang ng relay sa kanya. Bale ang mangyayari habang start-up doon muna sa thermistor dumaan ang kuryente tapos kapag nakapag-charge na iyung bulk capacitor o stable na ang supply i-activate o paganahin iyung relay para doon na dumaan ang kuryente ...
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Sumagot si Digna..
Yung bunso mo paanaugutan mo at wala ng gatas, hangang sa makalawa na lang daw ang gatas at yung pang tuition daw ng panganay, naniningil na yung kahera ng Ateneo
Pakisabi na lang ng "Hello" kay Ma'am Digna para sa akin. Matagal tagal ko na siyang hindi nababati.
Dagdagan ko lang ang nasabi ko tungkol sa thermistor (kasi nga may disadvantage sa power amplifier) sa may inrush current limit. Since hindi nga maganda na siya lang ... kaya ... mag-parallel na lang ng relay sa kanya. Bale ang mangyayari habang start-up doon muna sa thermistor dumaan ang kuryente tapos kapag nakapag-charge na iyung bulk capacitor o stable na ang supply i-activate o paganahin iyung relay para doon na dumaan ang kuryente ...
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ipa DNA na yan..... :D :D :D
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;D ;D ;D
May itsura si Ma'am Digna pero hindi siya iyung type ko. At saka isa pa, medyo may edad na siya ;)
Magalit pa sa akin iyung Mister niya. Sa kanya pa naman ako nagpapagawa ng PCB.
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commercial products are made with profit in mind......
the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......
it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....
so yes, in this regard brand x can be better than brand y in terms of cost......
besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....
Pamalit sa Elna ...
Eh di Sir puwede pala sa inyo mga Chinese brand na capacitor tulad ng Capxon, Samxon etc tutal sa music ka naman nakikinig at hindi sa capacitor :)
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to add..
if it does not hurt my wallet, why not ;D Its for a Power supply unit, I want to go with tested brands not because of SQ but for reliability. The original caps in my amp is ELNA, its 1976 model na amp, roughly 36 years old and still working, I am replacing the caps for preventive maintenance as this would be my daily driver amp.
if someone will tell me that (insert cheap brand here) brand is reliable for ten years, why not .. then again the parts I need are small and should be inexpensive, no reason not to go with "better" brands and I am not selling amps, I can spoil myself.. if I was in the amp selling business then cost would then be a factor.
Pamalit sa Elna ...
Eh di Sir puwede pala sa inyo mga Chinese brand na capacitor tulad ng Capxon, Samxon etc tutal sa music ka naman nakikinig at hindi sa capacitor :)
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just replace those caps, you will find that the equivalent value cap is probably smaller with today's caps....
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pasensya na OT question : Ok ba yung Rubycon na caps ?
Teka.. ako yung thread starter bakit ako yung OT ;D
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I bought some Elna capacitors from Deeco cubao. Eto yung 5pcs per bag, 1000uf/50v (52pesos for 5pcs). Meron din ako ng nakitang Elna 10,000uf/50v (130p per pc). Di ko na napansin yung ibang values since pang power supply yung hinahanap ko at that time. Meron ding Nichicon 4700uf/50volts. Rubycon caps meron din.
Experience ko lang, mas maganda tumingin sa Deeco Cubao and Raon since mas madaming pagpipilian sa branches na mga ito. Yung Deeco sa Starmall alabang, wala masyadong laman. Eto pa lang mga napupuntahan ko.
Rubycon, Elna, Nichicon yung alam kong mga respected caps na available locally.
Merong TK brand na caps sa deeco. Mas mahal pa sa Elna. Japan daw sya. Okay ba yun?
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pasensya na OT question : Ok ba yung Rubycon na caps ?
Teka.. ako yung thread starter bakit ako yung OT ;D
Reliable naman sila sa experience ko. They're normally standard-spec mass-market components like Nichicon, Matsush!ta, Sanyo, Chemi-Con, Hitachi, Elna, etc. caps, though they do sell higher-spec components.
Many shy away from them kasi nga walang ring sa name unlike mga botique brands.
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Merong TK brand na caps sa deeco. Mas mahal pa sa Elna. Japan daw sya. Okay ba yun?
Toshin Kogyo is a Japanese company pero like many of these brands, they usually source many of these anyway. For the most part, you are buying the brand and the standards that they uphold. Where the parts are made (and who made them) is often not indicated sa packaging nung component.
As for comparing caps, maski pareho ng value, voltage rating, and tolerance iba iba pa din kasi ang series ng mga makers. Meron mga long life caps for example, which cost more.
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I bought some Elna capacitors from Deeco cubao. Eto yung 5pcs per bag, 1000uf/50v (52pesos for 5pcs). Meron din ako ng nakitang Elna 10,000uf/50v (130p per pc). Di ko na napansin yung ibang values since pang power supply yung hinahanap ko at that time. Meron ding Nichicon 4700uf/50volts. Rubycon caps meron din.
Experience ko lang, mas maganda tumingin sa Deeco Cubao and Raon since mas madaming pagpipilian sa branches na mga ito. Yung Deeco sa Starmall alabang, wala masyadong laman. Eto pa lang mga napupuntahan ko.
Rubycon, Elna, Nichicon yung alam kong mga respected caps na available locally.
Merong TK brand na caps sa deeco. Mas mahal pa sa Elna. Japan daw sya. Okay ba yun?
haven't seen the TK as i can remember....deeco sells low because they do bulk purchases also for the electronics that they manufacture...
yes....whenever i go to Deeco raon, i see to it that i look at the capacitor section of the supermarket.....more often than not, i buy these branded caps, i can not resist the low cost....i buy even if i have no use for such caps at the moment....
kung matibay ang dibdib mo, marami sa bangketa ng raon, mga original parts, the sellers have no clue as to the real cost of their items.....
of course there is myu regular tube and capacitor pimp, gerry sta maria, 400-2762....
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ipa DNA na yan..... :D :D :D
yun alleged love child sa spin? :D :D :D
Pakisabi na lang ng "Hello" kay Ma'am Digna para sa akin. Matagal tagal ko na siyang hindi nababati.
May malalim pala kayo nakaraan... :D
Dagdagan ko lang ang nasabi ko tungkol sa thermistor (kasi nga may disadvantage sa power amplifier) sa may inrush current limit. Since hindi nga maganda na siya lang ... kaya ... mag-parallel na lang ng relay sa kanya. Bale ang mangyayari habang start-up doon muna sa thermistor dumaan ang kuryente tapos kapag nakapag-charge na iyung bulk capacitor o stable na ang supply i-activate o paganahin iyung relay para doon na dumaan ang kuryente ...
Ginagawa na yan sir, in lieu of the power resistors, NTCs are used then shorted out by a relay.
pasensya na OT question : Ok ba yung Rubycon na caps ?
Teka.. ako yung thread starter bakit ako yung OT ;D
Caps = OT
Soft Start and DNA testing = BTT
;D
Seriously, black gates are actually premium Rubycon caps...
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Mas madalas sa akin si Sir TonyT ah. Sabi sa akin iyun ni Ma'am Digna ... :D
Eh bakit ka pa kasi nag-attach ng litrato ng amplifier. Pinaliwanag mo na lang sana para tapos na usapan ;)
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tubes ang pakay ko doon at saka double sided 2oz pcbs..... :D
this equipment can help you a lot: http://www.elab.ph/forum/index.php?topic=32916.0
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/524353_3300008991088_1593823839_32634476_2119066453_n.jpg)
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Iyun lang ba talaga ... :D ... bakit parang may ibang kuwento iyung guwardiya ... ;D
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Mas madalas sa akin si Sir TonyT ah. Sabi sa akin iyun ni Ma'am Digna ... :D
Eh bakit ka pa kasi nag-attach ng litrato ng amplifier. Pinaliwanag mo na lang sana para tapos na usapan ;)
Ibig sabihin nun mas dalas-dalasan mo pa daw ang punta... ;D
Para makita lang na ginagamit sa actual... At least tapos na usapan... ibang usapan na para naman magaang... ;)
tubes ang pakay ko doon at saka double sided 2oz pcbs..... :D
sige na nga, nagpapaliwanag ka pa koya... :D
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my lips are sealed.....i am not a kiss and tell type of guy....;D
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sabi ko na nga ba eh! ;D
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i buy even if i have no use for such caps at the moment....
of course there is myu regular tube and capacitor pimp, gerry sta maria, 400-2762....
Gawain ko din ito. Yung mga nabili kong cap kay Gerry parang gusto kong itago na lang for collection. :D
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i was at the deeco in Raon last Saturday.....lots of branded caps on ammo belt type carriers...these caps are the real deal if you ask me.....
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I was able to get my caps at Watson, was planning to go to Deeco get some tubes and colored shrink wrap for my project. but my trip was cut short due to an emergency.
I was able to get Nichicon, Rubycon,Marcon and a few Elnas at Watsons
I just need 2 more caps.. 22000uF at 80-100 volts ;D
i was at the deeco in Raon last Saturday.....lots of branded caps on ammo belt type carriers...these caps are the real deal if you ask me.....
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I just need 2 more caps.. 22000uF at 80-100 volts ;D
meron rin Hitachi brand sa Deeco Raon, 2nd floor. pag akyat mo,kaliwa , naka glass cabinet, kasama mga motor caps (Aluminum encapsulation).
i think saw some Elnas too
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meron din nyan sa ROKs....Hitachi is a good brand..
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pare pareho lang pala tayo ng pinupuntahan ah.
dami mga old caps sa paligid, ingat lang kasi natutuyo din yung electrolyte sa loob. Best talaga kung macheck niyo muna ESR.
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yung rubber seal ang importante, pag me signs na butas or damaged, pang kalakal na lang yung cap....
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Tony post mo yun reforming jig mo na post mo dati... ;D
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saka na, medyo nahihiya pa ako.....pinagod ako ni bigwill.....magpopost tapos babawiin...;D
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nakita ko may Solen caps kay Andrew Sevila.
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Where is his shop ?
nakita ko may Solen caps kay Andrew Sevila.
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amx audio, sa san dionisio, paranaque...http://www.amxtubeaudio.com/products.html
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Where is his shop ?
It's along President's Ave., malapit na sa Sucat kung palabas po kayo ng BF Homes. Red building na may SMART driving school.
Lagi ko nadadaanan. :)
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Is there any Sonic difference between Elna Silmic and Elna Cerafine?
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i doubt it, they are both excellent caps....