PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Home Theater => Audio => Speakers => Topic started by: Mika on Feb 24, 2003 at 11:55 AM
-
sirs ;) ,
- which is a truer audiophile set-up (well again, that's a relative question)? i feel that audio buffs tend to favor bookshelf speakers over floorstanding ones (?).
- what are the variables to consider here? type of music, tweak-ability, etc.
salamat!
:)
-
hi bro!
when i asked that question several months ago, friends gave several recommendation/considerations...but very important is the room size...and siyempre, the BUDGET, hehehe!
thanks!
;D
-
I think most audio buffs would go to whatever speaker that suits their needs...
I Personally would of gone for a floorstander (Paradigm s/100) if only i had the floorspace. and the money for an amplifier to drive those EXTREMELY power hungry pair of speakers.
-
bro Mika,
each have pros and cons...considering same brand sila (ex. Mission, B&W, Paradigm, Warf etc)...of course the bookshelf types are the ones you can mobilize easily...lalo na't kung palipat lipat ka ng arrangements...and the floorstanders are heavier to transport...there are also differences with regards to sound quality...in general, the bass is deeper in floorstanders compared to their bookshelf counterparts...
so if you have a fixed spot for speakers, floorstanders are way to go...kasi if you place bookshelf types...bibili ka pa ng speakers stands...so extra gastos 8)
-
room size and budget will ultimately decide which one will fit in your set up.
-
I prefer the sound of floorstanders. But as previously posted, budget and roomspace greatlyinfluence this decision.
-
It would depend if your amp could power those floorstanders. Stereo amps usually have adequate power for bookshelves and it would require you a bigger budget for a bigger wattage amp if you are going to use them to drive floorstanders. The question is if your room could accomodate those floorstanders.
I'd go for bookshelves with a worthy speaker stand. I would listen to music mostly centering on the midrange and highs so I don't really need that extra bass that floorstanders give.
Choice of music is another thing. If you go for hip hop, R&B, rock floor standers are the way to go. In Jazzy, chillout, new age music, bookshelves are more than enough. ;)
-
thanks guys for the info :)
based from your feedback, i'm inclined more of sticking to floorstanders. i think floorstanders would do more justice to my kind of music.
i guess, bookshelf+subwoofer combination would present difficulty in proper placement/alignment (in my case)? synergy/matching between components would even more critical.
otoh, what are distinct advantages of bookshelf over floorstanders? are there other things to consider?
salamat :)
-
mika
at first i had a dm 303 bookshelf it sounds good sa HT, pero pag nag music ako specially mga rock, medyo bitin ako sa bass, so i have to turn on my subwoofer, but im not contented with the bass of the subwoofer(SW320) i mean is pag music sya, kahit may music mode parang iba ang bass nya, for me nde maganda pakingan for music...so i decided to upgrade to dm 603 para mas ok pag music lang...
now im very satisfied when playing my kind of music with the sub off mas ok sa pandinig ko...
so u should also try what really satisfies ur ears..
-
revive ko lang itong thread na 'to ha... need ur advice before i spend my hard-earned cash! im thinking of switching from bookshelfs w/ sub to floorstanders w/ sub.
i've read from this site that floorstanders will sound good only if u have a large enough room. otherwise, it will be too boomy.
what floor area would be considered large enough for floorstanders? my setup is in a combined living & dining room which is 4m x 7m. area-wise the room is larger than 28sqm because of a corridor that adds about 4sqm, so total room area is 32sqm. but the ht/audio setup occupies only the living room half facing the shorter dimension. ceiling height is around 10ft.
i used to have a large bookshelf with a 7" woofer w/c i used in a bigger room area. when i moved to a smaller space i switched to a smaller bookshelf with a 5" woofer -- this gave me better detail & imaging but i miss the sound of drums. i have a chesky test disk with a drum solo that sounded alive in my larger speaker. i dont care about the neighbors anymore, i want my bass slam.. ;D ;D
pls comment.... i cant audition bnew speakers in my room so maybe i can rely on someone else's experience & knowledge... thanks!
-
revive ko lang itong thread na 'to ha... need ur advice before i spend my hard-earned cash! im thinking of switching from bookshelfs w/ sub to floorstanders w/ sub.
i've read from this site that floorstanders will sound good only if u have a large enough room. otherwise, it will be too boomy.
what floor area would be considered large enough for floorstanders? my setup is in a combined living & dining room which is 4m x 7m. area-wise the room is larger than 28sqm because of a corridor that adds about 4sqm, so total room area is 32sqm. but the ht/audio setup occupies only the living room half facing the shorter dimension. ceiling height is around 10ft.
i used to have a large bookshelf with a 7" woofer w/c i used in a bigger room area. when i moved to a smaller space i switched to a smaller bookshelf with a 5" woofer -- this gave me better detail & imaging but i miss the sound of drums. i have a chesky test disk with a drum solo that sounded alive in my larger speaker. i dont care about the neighbors anymore, i want my bass slam.. ;D ;D
pls comment.... i cant audition bnew speakers in my room so maybe i can rely on someone else's experience & knowledge... thanks!
bro...that's a pleasant problem! anyway, i'd recommend that if you really want the "slam", then go for a floorstander (mission speakers - m74 are, i think, already ok)...you can also check out the b&w floorstanders...
does this mean you're disposing your AE speakers??? (saw it in your post re: picture of HT set-up)...let me know, i'm interested, hehehehe!
happy hunting and enjoy!
superman 8)
-
superman, sige bro ill let u know when its 4sale. im not sure yet if i will replace it, but i might acquire a possible replacement soon. other than buying it i dont know of any way to test bnew spkrs in my room. i just want to compare side-by-side in my room first then decide if i will sell the old or the new. couple of my friends are waiting to see how it goes coz i sold some old stuff to them real cheap.
i hav a shortlist of brands/models to audition but im guessing it would be monitor audio. i saw a bookshelf supertest once, the bronze and the aegis went neck & neck at the top spot, with monitor audio bronze finally winning but barely.
here's a pic of my front right & center. i got 4pcs in rosewood plus a center in black ash to match my tv. its really hard to let go but its getting old (3yrs).
(http://www.itbf.net/pic?id=248001&training=1) (http://www.itbf.net/pic?id=248002&training=1)
-
revive ko lang itong thread na 'to ha... need ur advice before i spend my hard-earned cash! im thinking of switching from bookshelfs w/ sub to floorstanders w/ sub.
i've read from this site that floorstanders will sound good only if u have a large enough room. otherwise, it will be too boomy.
what floor area would be considered large enough for floorstanders? my setup is in a combined living & dining room which is 4m x 7m. area-wise the room is larger than 28sqm because of a corridor that adds about 4sqm, so total room area is 32sqm. but the ht/audio setup occupies only the living room half facing the shorter dimension. ceiling height is around 10ft.
i used to have a large bookshelf with a 7" woofer w/c i used in a bigger room area. when i moved to a smaller space i switched to a smaller bookshelf with a 5" woofer -- this gave me better detail & imaging but i miss the sound of drums. i have a chesky test disk with a drum solo that sounded alive in my larger speaker. i dont care about the neighbors anymore, i want my bass slam.. ;D ;D
pls comment.... i cant audition bnew speakers in my room so maybe i can rely on someone else's experience & knowledge... thanks!
hi. just curious, do you use surround speakers? coz i noticed on your post that you didn't mention your surround speakers.
-
lazeeboy, yup i use surround speakers. they're exactly the same as my fronts so the transition between front & back is seamless. 'copters are the same size when they zoom forward/backward. using all 5 speakers in 5-ch stereo mode increases bass output. the AE have good bass weight for such small speakers and very refined. its perfect if u live in a condo or apartment.
but still, i miss the slam of kick drums. my old very unrefined speaker had one redeeming quality w/c is the bass. drums sound BIG and lifelike. but that was for a much bigger listening space. my problem is: can i get the same bass slam by switching to a floorstander but in a smaller space (approx. 32 sqm).
-
i think the main difference lang is the size of the floorstanders and bookshelf.. ;) nowadays kasi meron nang bookshelf with subs..like the DEFENITIVE SPEAKERS.. :)
-
I think you can be an audiophile whether you use bookshelf or floorstanders. :)
However, personally, I prefer bookshelf speakers. Others would say that bookshelf speakers lack the bass. My answer to that is to get a good sub. You will have more control on the level/amount (?sorry, not really sure of the correct audio term) of bass depending on the type of music you play or even the mood you're in.
I guess in a nutshell, what i like about the bookshelf-sub combo is the flexibility.
Flexibility in:
1. level of bass, punch, slam, etc. whatever you want to call it :)
2. positioning
3. upgradeability (i can upgrade the bookshelf and sub separately, one at a time, easier on the cashflow)
Just my two centavos (in pesos, wala akong dolyar) :)
-
In my case, I chose bookshelf for my HT because of limited space and I have a subwoofer to produce really deep bass. For my audio, I chose floorstander to simplify my setup. Since my audio is in the Sala, Im trying to avoid clutter.
-
lazeeboy, yup i use surround speakers. they're exactly the same as my fronts so the transition between front & back is seamless. 'copters are the same size when they zoom forward/backward. using all 5 speakers in 5-ch stereo mode increases bass output. the AE have good bass weight for such small speakers and very refined. its perfect if u live in a condo or apartment.
but still, i miss the slam of kick drums. my old very unrefined speaker had one redeeming quality w/c is the bass. drums sound BIG and lifelike. but that was for a much bigger listening space. my problem is: can i get the same bass slam by switching to a floorstander but in a smaller space (approx. 32 sqm).
oh ok. in my case, i used to have bose 301 as fronts, bose vcs-10 as center, and polkaudio R15 as surrounds. but since i transferred to a smaller room, my 301's became too large for my HT set-up in my cramped room. i was forced to use the polks as my fronts na lang. no regrets though in using the polks as fronts. yung nga lang, wala na akong surrounds.
-
In the price ranges the average joe is more comfortable with, there are really no floorstanders that can go convincingly deep enough and powerful enough down to 20 Hz that some muscial recordings contain. Such a capability is reserved to those behemoth and megabuck speakers. When reviewers says so and so budget and mid-price speakers have excellent bass, they're most likely talking about flat responses from 60Hz to 80 Hz - the region where the bass of most pop and rock recordings have. Classical recodings also generally do not contain that much low frequency content, unless there are kettle, timpani bass drums and piano notes in pieces that require low piano keys to be struck (generating 27Hz the lowest on the piano.)
Hence, you're better off with an excellent bookshelf and a sub.
It is always adviseable that the speakers generating low frequencies be separate from that generating the rest (above 100Hz, typically) Using subwoofers is a form of active bi-amping that dviides audio spectral content into specialized amps and speakers, giving the main amps more headroom and power for non-bass greater band-width content and sending the power hungry bass freqs to more powerful but bandwidth-limited sub-woofer amps.
Another excellent reason for having a sub is that in general, stereo or soundstage imaging is best achieved when the speakers are far from boundary walls. You get good imaging but at the expense of bass response. Try it. The farther a floorstander or bookshelf is from the corner or back and side walls, the lesser the bass perceived from your listening chair. Better stereo imaging and lesser midrannge coloration from reflecting adjacent walls. But no bass. The most powerful bass comes from a corner placement. The farther you go away from a corner, the lesser the bass. But you get better imaging and midrange clarity.
Hence, in this regard, an excellent bookshelf speaker is all you need to get excellent stereo imaging and focus. Even budget bookshelfs have excellent mids and high frequency propagation characterisitcs. But you should have a subwoofer to take care of the bass, preferrably in a corner or near wall placement. Using your average joe floorstanders exclusively cannot yield the best imaging and the best bass response achievable. At most, they give a compromise.
The use of subwoofers would have virtually rendered floorstanders technically unnecessary and enters the realm of personal preference. Except for one technical consderation.
That is called low frequency imaging or directionality.
It is generally accepted that the human hear cannot adequately perceive the direction of low frequencies below about 60 Hz. Too bad not all recorded materials contain bass that are non-directional. A kick drum or a bass guitar originating on the right channel do send out bass frequencies that you can localize as coming from the right channel. That's because they generate fundamentals and harmonics above 60 Hz which are directional, and adds to the soundstage illusion.
A subwoofer is really meant to generate frequencies below a non-directional 60 Hz and down well into the infrasonics where the sound is more felt than heard. And you only need one subwoofer for this purpose. However, with most subwoofer crossover filters set at 120Hz to 80Hz, there is still directionality within that range. And summing the left and the right channels' low frequency content into a single sub loses much of low freq directionality and muddles what little is left in the main speakers.
That's why many audiophiles prefer floorstanders plus subwoofer. They prefer a floorstander with a cutover at around 50 Hz so the sub really gives only non-directional bass. And the floorstander will take care of directional bass in the 80-120Hz where it is good at. Another reason is because a floorstadner's bass response while rolled off when posiitoned away from walls, provide a gentler bass roll-off that makes a more seamless and smoother transition with the sub's starting crossover freq compared with a bookshelf that can often sound abruptly bass deficient when posiitoned away from walls.
On the otherhand, using floorstadners and a sub can have the danger of freqiency peaks at the crossover point, if the main speakers do not roll-off fast enough. Solution is to set 2 crossover points - a higher one from the preamp and a lower one at the subwoofer amp.
Using bookshelfs may require the use of left and right subwoofers when set at 80 to 120 Hz crossover. This is done so the sub can handle directional bass in that spectral region.
-
In the price ranges the average joe is more comfortable with, there are really no floorstanders that can go convincingly deep enough and powerful enough down to 20 Hz that some muscial recordings contain. Such a capability is reserved to those behemoth and megabuck speakers.
Correct. but please bear in mind also that there are only a small number of subwoofers that can actually reproduce signals that can actually reach 20hz but why stress importance in that frquency spectrum? 1% lang yata ng recorded music ang may output at around 20hz and below and most of those tracks are not worth listening to. Also, many many subs that are available actually reproduce output from 40hz to 100hz so its just a classic case of buying something that you already have assuming that you are using quality floorstanders.
It is always adviseable that the speakers generating low frequencies be separate from that generating the rest (above 100Hz, typically)
huh? since when? by who? ???
Hence, in this regard, an excellent bookshelf speaker is all you need to get excellent stereo imaging and focus. Even budget bookshelfs have excellent mids and high frequency propagation characterisitcs. But you should have a subwoofer to take crae of the bass.
Bookshelves may offer excellent stereo imaging and focus but in a small scale. even with the addition of a subwoofer the scale of the presentation is still small when compared to the scale and granduer of the output from a good floostander.
Using your average joe floorstanders exclusively cannot yield the best imaging and the best bass response achievable. At most, they give a compromise.
depende sa set up yan and sa listening preference. You cannot automatically assume that a bookshelf plus sub setup will sound better than floorstanders just because the small bookshelves have low freq reinforcement in the 30hz to 80hz region. Bass is just one area of the total musical spectrum.
The use of subwoofers would have virtually rendered floorstanders technically unnecessary and enters the realm of personal preference.
Not for me bro...and not for those people who own high quality stereo floorstanders. im sure all of those peeps who own quality floorstanders will not be selling their babies sa Buy and Sell or sa Bidshot just to buy bookshelve speakers and a sub. B&W will not stop producing the 801's if they deemed that those speakers are "technically unnecessary" already. Simply put...magkaiba ang market ng floorstanders and iba din ang market ng bookshelf plus sub setup. Depende sa requirement yan, sa space and most importantly sa budget.
That's why many audiophiles prefer floorstanders plus subwoofer. They prefer a floorstander with a cutover at around 50 Hz so the sub really gives only non-directional bass. And the floorstander will take care of directional bass in the 80-120Hz where it is good at.
many audiophiles prefer two channels only....period.. No need for subwoofer reinforcement if the main stereo channels are good enough to begin with. Just because a system doesnt perform a ruler flat freq response all the way down to 20hz doesnt mean that its technically unecessary . a lot of true blue audiophiles and I do mean a lot, stress more importance to the midband performance of a system...not the bass output.
Our previous speakers (Unity Audio floorstanders) powered by an all tube electronics combo (Cary Audio Designs tube CD, tube pre-amp and tube dual mono amps) reproduced bass that in my opinion was just right for our listening space and type of music. I was never ever tempted to add a Velodyne or a REL to augment the bass because the system simply sounded "right" to my ears already in spite of the fact that the Unity Audio floorstander utilizes "only" a 6.5" midrange/midbass and 1" tweeter. The bass output may be thin to most people but the amount of bass detail in my opinion far exceeds the quantity issue.
-
Thanks listener for your viewpoint. For every point there's always a counter point. I'll stick to mine.
There may be many audiophiles who rellish the sound of midrange. And stop at that. If that mkes them happy, no earthly mortal can contest that. And you may be right that materials with low bass may consititute just 1%. Sorry, but I aspire to get the best of both worlds - stereo image and low frequency response. Anything less is an underwhelming sonic experience for me.
And don't get me wrong, i am not against floorstanders. If you check my posts in other threads, i prefer them over bookshelf types, regardless of price point. O and there are audiophiles with excellent (expensive) floorstanders who still use subwoofers. More than one pa nga. One reviewer in the internet has an all vandersteen set-up - floorstanders and 4 subs. Well, every set-up is personal.
And there are many auduiophiles out there who, after listening to an excellent multi-channel recording on an excellent multi-channel set-up, will never go back to plain stereo. Period. (And i know one who has 5 Jolida tube power monoblocks for his fledgling SACD collection.) Exceptions? Maybe. But they're growing fast.
-
.......many audiophiles prefer two channels only....period.. ......
If that is the definition of an audiophile, I will never allow anybody to call me an audiophile. It's like a close-minded and does not open to other things and will not accept new developments.
I prefer to be called as discerning audio enthusiast instead.
-
If that is the definition of an audiophile, I will never allow anybody to call me an audiophile. It's like a close-minded and does not open to other things and will not accept new developments.
I prefer to be called as discerning audio enthusiast instead.
Nicely put Philander :)
-
Ako, I will call myself practical audiophile cynic.
Based on my reading in other forums and discussions like these, audiophile people tend to be more on the stereo (2-channel side). This is also a reason why a lot of vintage equipment (both tubes and SS) continue to have huge following.
Personally, I consider the bookshelf/subwoofer tandem a practical setup in any room size configuration - good mid/high are common to bookshelf and a hidden subwoofer does the rest of LF. Practical because of cost, placing flexibility.
For setup simplicity, the tower maybe the choice.
Tower speaker, especially the good ones, do the work in the same way (especially if a separate driver has been dedicated for midrange reproduction - or a separate driver has been dedicated for LF reproduction). If not, It may not approach a good bookshelf/subwoofer tandem.
Of course, some drivers, like the fostex can stand on its own, producing the full spectrum - but I am not really familiar on its sound characteristics.
The cost for either of this might not be far from each other. Subwoofer producing the level of 20Hz (and efficient at that) cost so high. Tower speaker, which can generate the level of 20Hz is also costly. But when they do, such is an enviable speaker. Of course, if cost is not an issue - the combination of both maybe employed, I mean tower + subwoofer.
For the average filipino consumers, the bookshelf+sub maybe the best that is affordable. The affordable towers we have here are not 20-Hz capable. Going subwoofer than going high-end tower speaker maybe more affordable, if not, at least you can phase your buying.
-
i did a little playing around with my set-up and transferred the m71 connections to the fronts:
for vocals and acoustic music - there is a big difference in terms of attack and focus :)
i need to get a better set of plugs so i can switch speakers without fear of damaging my receiver's plugs :D
-
my floorstanders arrived this weekend. its the very 1st floorstander ive ever owned. i can finally post my experience in this thread instead of just asking questions!
first, the size.. or more accurately the impression of size. even though the floorstander occupies the same floor area and height as my bookshelf spkrs on stands, they definitely appear to be occupying a lot more space. parang sumikip yung living room.
then the sound. the floorstander has about the same frequency range as my bookshelf w/ sub -- both go down to 30hz. even for loud music, the single woofer 8" sub can go toe to toe with the floorstanders' 10" woofers. but they have different quality of bass. the subwoofer amp was equalized to extend the bass. on certain R&B music that has alot of electronic bass or electric bass guitar, the bookshelf w/ sub sounds fuller. however, on real drums the floorstander sounds fuller. combining the floorstander with the sub also produces good results but was very hard to tweak coz i could barely hear the sub at the minimum crossover freq. using the bigger 10" sub didnt sound too good on music. on most material i didnt need the sub when using the floorstander.
in hindsight i think i could have just upgraded to a bigger bookshelf like the monitor audio B2 to solve the "hole" in the lower midbass of my bookshelf setup. i didn't like the sub handling anything above 70hz -- not fast enough. that left a hole in the lower midbass where my old bookshelf was weak.
so my conclusion: you cant go wrong with either as long as u match them correctly with the right components. small bookshelfs need a fast & tight sub. floorstanders with large woofers need a powerful amp.
-
akyat
anong floorstander mo?
-
qman, i got mordaunt short ms-908.
-
akyat congrats sa bago mong speaker.
saan mo sya na-iskor at pede malaman kano iskor mo (kahit pa pm na lang)
tenks
-
I heared that DTX floor standers are good buys? Anyone auditioned this one? I assume this is good for entry level.
-
i have a bookshelf and a floorstander that sound almost exactly the same from the mids to the highs... they're the same brand/model and they use the same drivers except for the floorstander's LF woofer... when playing acoustic music on the bookshelf, i sometimes mistake it for the floorstander... it is only in the bass that the difference becomes apparent... when i hook up a sub to the bookshelf system, i am able to reproduce the same low frequencies as the floorstander.
does this mean that:
bookshelf + sub = bi-amped floorstander ?
the sound quality of the bookshelf system probably depends on the quality of the sub... the floorstander system depends on the quality of the amplification... if for instance i spend the savings i got from getting a bookshelf instead of a floorstander + amp, and use it to buy a better sub like say a REL, would it beat the turbocharged floorstander?
-
i have a bookshelf and a floorstander that sound almost
does this mean that:
bookshelf + sub = bi-amped floorstander ?
Technically, yes. The fact that you are using two power amplifers to power different portions of the audo spectrum as well as active electronic crossover courtesy of your receiver is effectively real bi-amplification.
the sound quality of the bookshelf system probably depends on the quality of the sub... the floorstander system depends on the quality of the amplification... if for instance i spend the savings i got from getting a bookshelf instead of a floorstander + amp, and use it to buy a better sub like say a REL, would it beat the turbocharged floorstander?
Not really. Remember that an audio set-up is a chain. Every part that you put in that chain is important Your entire set-up is only as good the weakest link or component. Getting a good sub will not make your set-up any good if the amplifer powering your bookshelf isn't. And based on experience, many consumer mid-priced floorstanders can still benefit from a good sub. Most of these floorstander only go as low as 50Hz or 60 Hz. The better ones as low as 40Hz. A good sub should go down to as low as 25-20Hz.
-
i have a bookshelf and a floorstander that sound almost exactly the same from the mids to the highs... they're the same brand/model and they use the same drivers except for the floorstander's LF woofer... when playing acoustic music on the bookshelf, i sometimes mistake it for the floorstander... it is only in the bass that the difference becomes apparent... when i hook up a sub to the bookshelf system, i am able to reproduce the same low frequencies as the floorstander.
does this mean that:
bookshelf + sub = bi-amped floorstander ?
the sound quality of the bookshelf system probably depends on the quality of the sub... the floorstander system depends on the quality of the amplification... if for instance i spend the savings i got from getting a bookshelf instead of a floorstander + amp, and use it to buy a better sub like say a REL, would it beat the turbocharged floorstander?
As long as we're not talking about expensive floorstanders like the Sonus faber Cremona (P290K) or Amati (P500++K), then I may always put my bet on bookshelf + subwoofer. The distinct advantage of bookshelf versus floorstanders is that it is almost always better in imaging and disappearing act (you can visualize the singer in the middle of the room). Coupled with a good sub (like a REL) and you really get formidable sonic performance! My Sonus faber Concertino Home + REL Strata 3 sub can somehow mimic the rich upper-midbass hump of the Cremona floorstanders, and in fact goes deeper (since the Strata is rated to go down to 18Hz, unlike the Cremona which is only at around 32+ Hz only).
To get answers to your questions, just listen and see for yourself.
-
av_phile,
what if everything else is the same (including budget) and the only variables are the speakers? same source, same receiver, same cables... as a concrete example, say the bookshelf is a B2 and the floorstander is a B4... they sound alike except the bass... the price difference is about 10k... i spend an additional 15k for a hafler power amp to power the B4 to its full potential... so now the price difference is 25k, enough to buy a velodyne.
B2 + velodyne vs. B4 + halfer ?
if i go further and get a velodyne for the B4 system, then now i have 50k budget for a sub in the B2 system.
B2 + REL vs. B4 + halfer + velo ?
not really planning to buy, just thinking of the possibilities, since i'm now using a bookshelf + 2 subs, and i'm now appreciating the flexibility of bookshelf + subs... it really is a bi-amped system.
audio_tyro,
your setup is one of my references for getting a bookshelf system right... that's why i'm trying it out in a lower scale/price range... plus the fact that my floorstander is being fixed so i don't really have a choice.
-
av_phile,
what if everything else is the same (including budget) and the only variables are the speakers? same source, same receiver, same cables... as a concrete example, say the bookshelf is a B2 and the floorstander is a B4... they sound alike except the bass... the price difference is about 10k... i spend an additional 15k for a hafler power amp to power the B4 to its full potential... so now the price difference is 25k, enough to buy a velodyne.
B2 + velodyne vs. B4 + halfer ?
if i go further and get a velodyne for the B4 system, then now i have 50k budget for a sub in the B2 system.
B2 + REL vs. B4 + halfer + velo ?
not really planning to buy, just thinking of the possibilities, since i'm now using a bookshelf + 2 subs, and i'm now appreciating the flexibility of bookshelf + subs... it really is a bi-amped system.
audio_tyro,
your setup is one of my references for getting a bookshelf system right... that's why i'm trying it out in a lower scale/price range... plus the fact that my floorstander is being fixed so i don't really have a choice.
my biased opinion: ;D
i've heard a b4 driven by the hafler - and i've heard a b2 driven by an HK recvr with a velodyne sub(cht 8)
for music - the b4 hafler combo sounded great (dare i say better?) consider this, the sub will reinforce the bass and some sub-audible frequencies while a maximized b4 will also have a boost in the mids and highs (as well as the lows)
i'll go for bringing out the best in your speakers ;)
iceman90a po (nagbebenta ng hafler ;D)
-
my biased opinion: ;D
i've heard a b4 driven by the hafler - and i've heard a b2 driven by an HK recvr with a velodyne sub(cht 8)
for music - the b4 hafler combo sounded great (dare i say better?) consider this, the sub will reinforce the bass and some sub-audible frequencies while a maximized b4 will also have a boost in the mids and highs (as well as the lows)
i'll go for bringing out the best in your speakers ;)
iceman90a po (nagbebenta ng hafler ;D)
thanks iceman, that's exactly what i wanted to know, from somebody who has heard both... i've only heard the B4 + hafler which i think sets a very high standard for us to follow.
musta na vince, natuloy swap niyo?
-
thanks iceman, that's exactly what i wanted to know, from somebody who has heard both... i've only heard the B4 + hafler which i think sets a very high standard for us to follow.
musta na vince, natuloy swap niyo?
di pa makasagot si Hans, pero parang ayaw na isauli ;D
-
av_phile,
what if everything else is the same (including budget) and the only variables are the speakers? same source, same receiver, same cables... as a concrete example, say the bookshelf is a B2 and the floorstander is a B4... they sound alike except the bass... the price difference is about 10k... i spend an additional 15k for a hafler power amp to power the B4 to its full potential... so now the price difference is 25k, enough to buy a velodyne.
B2 + velodyne vs. B4 + halfer ?
if i go further and get a velodyne for the B4 system, then now i have 50k budget for a sub in the B2 system.
B2 + REL vs. B4 + halfer + velo ?
not really planning to buy, just thinking of the possibilities, since i'm now using a bookshelf + 2 subs, and i'm now appreciating the flexibility of bookshelf + subs... it really is a bi-amped system.
Personally, I would go for the B2 + sub. Bi-amplification is the better option. In terms of sonic quality, nothing beats separates and bi-amplifciation. More complex but the best for many old audio enthusiast i've come across.
Get a sub that goes down to at least 20-25Hz. The lower the better, Among other things. (And a sub with a notch filter can get rid of peaks typical of a sub's interactive response with the room's accostics. ) Getting a sub that can seamlessly integrate with your B2 at the lowest notes would be best. If velodyne can do that, go for it.
Pardon me but I don't see how a Hafler amo (is that the DH200 or 220 series) can optimize the B4 or any floorstander for that matter. Unless that amp is sonically superior to your exsiting amp. For it to be sonically supereior, it has to give greater power. a better frequency repsonse down to 1 hz, better damping. lesser THD, lower noise floor, better dynamics, greater slew rates, etc. Even then, if the B4 can only go down to 40Hz, then what's the point? Any amplifier that can goi down to 20Hz would sound as good on the B4 as an amp than can go lower, all else equal. The B4's low end iability s the limiting factor.
-
Pardon me but I don't see how a Hafler amo (is that the DH200 or 220 series) can optimize the B4 or any floorstander for that matter.
its the XL280 - and in this case 'to hear is to believe'
;)
-
its the XL280 - and in this case 'to hear is to believe'
;)
Is that the same mosfet XL 280 being sold by joe3rp which i was considering last year but regrettably didn't get? It came as a kit-form back in the early 80s right?
-
In terms of sonic quality, nothing beats separates and bi-amplifciation. More complex but the best for many old audio enthusiast i've come across.
Corollary to this is that the simplest approach also has its merits in, for ex: single driver crossover-less speakers often associated with low powered SET amps favored by audio enthusiasts I have come across. Often times, the less components in the audio chain, the less areas for a potential mismatch.
Think of a system that begins with a CD Transport, DAC, Preamp, HF amplifier, LF amplifier, bookshelves and a sub. 4 interconnects, 2 runs of speaker wire and another run to the sub. The implications are evident.
I think that both schools of thought prevail when considering floorstanders and bookshelf+sub combo. Integrating a sub into your 2 channel system is not always a snap. As mentioned, room acoustics can cause certain low octaves to bloat due to frequency overlaps.
Floorstanders, especially true 3-way speakers brings a coherence to it that may not go as deep as standmounts with a sub but also, (brand dependent), can produce a flatter response over a narrower bandwith.
-
exactly the amp you are referring to ;D
you can get the manual here:
http://www.hafler.com/techsupport/pdf/XL-280_amp_man.pdf
-
Yup, I already downloaded the manual when i was researching on it last year. Congrats on those babies. Did you get all three of them? I had wanted to get all three to power a 6.1 set-up.
-
Corollary to this is that the simplest approach also has its merits in, for ex: single driver crossover-less speakers often associated with low powered SET amps favored by audio enthusiasts I have come across. Often times, the less components in the audio chain, the less areas for a potential mismatch.
Think of a system that begins with a CD Transport, DAC, Preamp, HF amplifier, LF amplifier, bookshelves and a sub. 4 interconnects, 2 runs of speaker wire and another run to the sub. The implications are evident.
I think that both schools of thought prevail when considering floorstanders and bookshelf+sub combo. Integrating a sub into your 2 channel system is not always a snap. As mentioned, room acoustics can cause certain low octaves to bloat due to frequency overlaps.
Floorstanders, especially true 3-way speakers brings a coherence to it that may not go as deep as standmounts with a sub but also, (brand dependent), can produce a flatter response over a narrower bandwith.
Whether one or the other, as long as you get the sound you like. There will always be tradeoffs either way.
-
Yup, I already downloaded the manual when i was researching on it last year. Congrats on those babies. Did you get all three of them? I had wanted to get all three to power a 6.1 set-up.
up until last night, I had one - its now with someone who will be able to enjoy it more ;D
-
its the XL280 - and in this case 'to hear is to believe'
;)
i saw, i heard, i believe... ;)
iceman, is the lucky guy now the owner also of a nad cd player + tono/telefunken + B4, a.k.a. best-of-show?
-
i saw, i heard, i believe... ;)
iceman, is the lucky guy now the owner also of a nad cd player + tono/telefunken + B4, a.k.a. best-of-show?
aba!...pare, di ko akalain...B4??? dalhin mo yan sa bahay at pagsawaan natin, hehehehe!...pahiram naman ng telefunkens mo...let's compare it with the RCA blackplates...hehehe! 8)
-
aba!...pare, di ko akalain...B4??? dalhin mo yan sa bahay at pagsawaan natin, hehehehe!...pahiram naman ng telefunkens mo...let's compare it with the RCA blackplates...hehehe! 8)
ops, paging hans & france... mr. best-of-show... wanted ang setup mo for round 2, 3 & 4... hehe
been trying to reproduce the sound of the b4+hafler combo with the b2+sub... seems to be getting there, but i'm afraid to turn it up as loud as the session at narayan's.
-
i saw, i heard, i believe... ;)
iceman, is the lucky guy now the owner also of a nad cd player + tono/telefunken + B4, a.k.a. best-of-show?
tumpak - kulang na lang chicks, at taong sisigaw ng: Showtime!!!!
;D ;D ;D
-
tumpak - kulang na lang chicks, at taong sisigaw ng: Showtime!!!!
;D ;D ;D
May kulang parin syempre dapat may beerrrrrrrrr( OT na to) ;D ;D
-
up until last night, I had one - its now with someone who will be able to enjoy it more ;D
Just curious, why did you give it up?
-
Just curious, why did you give it up?
my living room was a mess - i had:
1 receiver
1 integ amp
1 cd player
1 dvd player
2 sets of front spkrs
1 power amp
1 tube preamp
and was still planning on getting:
1 cd player
1 tube amp
and was interchanging preamp, amp & speaker connections all the time. the wife was getting PO that she couldn't just switch the tv and receiver on anytime because i had to be sure that the connections were correct.
so i figured i would retain 1 ht setup and 1 audio setup, independent of each other. now she can watch anytime with no fear of anything smoking ;D
-
Got the picture,iceman. Also saw your pics in the general section. Your place was starting to look like Upscale Audio. Not really a bad idea though.
-
Got the picture,iceman. Also saw your pics in the general section. Your place was starting to look like Upscale Audio. Not really a bad idea though.
i wish... ;D ;D
-
I like both....Bookshelf and floorstanders... i mean both at the same time...
Bookshelf satellites and a pair of floorstanding units for the bass section...hehehe
honestly its a matter of preference and thje type of music you listen to.....
I like floorstanders....its kinda hard for a bookshelf with a 6.5 inch woofer to realistically reproduced the slam of a kick drum which has a diameter of more than 24 inches....
-
i own both floorstanders and bookshelf speakers. i would personally choose the bookshelf when in comes to 2-channel audio listening regardless of music played upon it. the bookshelf simply has better accuracy, dynamics and imaging than my floorstanders.
however, i would go in favor of my floorstander when in comes to HT.
-
however, i would go in favor of my floorstander when in comes to HT.
Since HT requires a sub to be more convincing, I would think a floorstander can be unnecessary. Satellite/sub set-up serve HT very well, but not as good in music.
-
It really depends on the type of music. bookshelves are better performers for jazz, vocals, chant, instrumental music. floorstanders are better for rock, disco, and all other bass heavy type of music.
-
If we're talking about music (not HT), floorstanders are best.
Floorstanders generally convey a better sense of space and depth in recordings
which bookshelves that rely solely on the subwoofers can struggle to present.
-
Satellite/sub set-up serve HT very well, but not as good in music.
I must be a bit drunk saying that. ;D Silly me. A good bookshelf-subwoofer tandem can be quite excellent in music. In fact, because very few floorstanders can go deep into the 20hz-25hz bottom, using a competent musical subwoofer that does go that deep can impart so much more realism and bottom airiness than using many floorstanders often limited to 40hz -3db. And because bookshelf speakers crossed-over to 80 or 120hz can impart fuller bodied mids unhampered by internal standing waves caused by low frequencies, they can be quite formidable in music. But admiittedly there's a lot more work to be done with bookself-sub combinations that may not be there with FS. Making sure that you achieve a seamless integration between the two is one very important aspect to work on in such a set-up.
Using FS doesn't always mean they are sufficient for music. Unless it's one of those high end FS speakers that can really go down to 20hz. Maybe for Pop, rock, disco and fussion, they can be just fine. But for some classical music like church pedal organ music that have spectral content even below 20hz, you'd be missing them out. A competent sub that really goes deep can do a good job to compliment commercial FS speakers that are often buttom challenged below 40hz. Again, whether BS or FS, seamless integration is a must. And many serious audiophiles have been using specialized subs long before they became fashionable with HT. Because they know that unless they spend big bucks for FS that can really go deep, a specialized subwoofer designed for those deep lows can bring a more satisfying listening experience at a more reasonable cost. Regardless whether using BS or FS.
-
... But admiittedly there's a lot more work to be done with bookself-sub combinations that may not be there with FS. Making sure that you achieve a seamless integration between the two is one very important aspect to work on in such a set-up.
...
Not only this, but also with sub/bookshelf combo, you remove compromises in getting the best audio - because you can now place the bookshelf to a position of better imaging, and position the sub separately to a position of better LF propagation - this is the area where endless work will not even solve FS proposition in coming up with the best in LF/mid positioning as they require different placement, unless of course, you are prepared to face your compromises (I mean, more compromises on top of what is inherent in any speaker).
... But admiittedly there's a lot more work to be done with bookself-sub combinations that may not be there with FS. Making sure that you achieve a seamless integration between the two is one very important aspect to work on in such a set-up.
...
Of course, there will always be initial work, but with sub/shelf, it will pay with maximum audiophile performance (100 for LF/ 100 for mid) of your setup and probably no need of further rework - while with FS, you will never get the best of both worlds (LF/mid), always negotiate with your compromise (50/50 for both LF/mid, or more LF, or more mid imaging - choose 1), and probably constantly re working because something is not that right in your ear! ;D ;D ;D
-
If we're talking about music (not HT), floorstanders are best.
Floorstanders generally convey a better sense of space and depth in recordings
which bookshelves that rely solely on the subwoofers can struggle to present.
this would of course factor in the cost object...FS and BS of the same pricepoint in comparison, i would go for the BS. given a cost-no-object comparison, FS would outperform a bookshelf..but then again, this is on the category of watt puppies, egglestonworks, and other insanely expensive bookshelves...
for a practical set up, i would still go for a sub/BS combo over a lone FS. the clarity and definition you get out of a BS can never be beaten by a so-so FS.
-
...
the clarity and definition you get out of a BS can never be beaten by a so-so FS.
...
Let me highlight this point again ... indeed!!! ;) 8)
... and to extend the point, the flexibility, the accuracy, and the audio spectrum completeness you can get by using BS/SUB can never be beaten by any expensive FS in a typical listening room! ::) ::) ::)
A good BS does not necessarily need to be expensive ... in the same way that expensive bookshelf are not necessarily good!
-
its all about compromises, in a smaller room a bookshelf would have an advantage when it comes to imaging, however FS has the edge when it comes to dynamics. Even when paired with a subwoofer, a BS/Sub can only do so much. I have had several bookshelves in the past from AE, Heybrook, Celestions, JPW and currently a large Usher X-719, even with the ushers X-719 (BS) 7 inch woofer, coupled with a pair of 12 inch subs, dynamics music specially drum test tracks, the sound is...it shall I say "shrunk". On the other hand my KEF 105.2 (FS) can "realistically" duplicate the dynamics and slam of the drum test track. These were some of the compromises that I had to accept, when I decided to retire my KEF 105.2. The only thing that the Ushers do that is better that the KEF 105.2 is imaging/dissapearing act, and this is one aspect that I am currently enjoying in my setup
I would not compare a good BS with a "so so" FS with a small 6.5 inch woofer. The same way that I would not compare a "so so" BS with a good FS.
-
apples vs. oranges?
for me its bookshelves. nothing against FS as long as you got the space and amp power (if needed) to let out its full potential.
-
I have been home auditioning several bookshelf speakers lately. And my, to my astonishment, some BS can even "out-bass" my previous FS in my 12sqm listening room. When I was a newbie, all I wanted was a FS cuz its porma & no need for stands, also thought that BS's were wussies. How wrong I was... ;D
FS in a small room can be boomy IMExperience, Specially if your room is bare walled. We used to live in a bare walled condo before I moved in to our current place. This exp taught me to place bass traps on my corners.
I have also changed from a FS setup to a BS setup for my HT. It was really hard on my part to let go of the FS cuz of the hidden "basta FS dapat kasi porma" mentality, but with my room size & the results of my experiments, no regrets... :)
-
It depends on what Bookshelf or Floorstander you refer to.
The ProAc bookshelf I heard from REM's place "CRUSHES" :o my REL-B&W combo to bits and pieces! ;D ;D ;D.
Not only in sound but in its cost too!
-
The ProAc bookshelf I heard from REM's place "CRUSHES" :o my REL-B&W combo to bits and pieces! ;D ;D ;D.
Not only in sound but in its cost too!
How???
The ProAc will not go down to 20 Hz??? What type of music? Rock, dance, hip-hop?:)
-
It depends on what Bookshelf or Floorstander you refer to.
The ProAc bookshelf I heard from REM's place "CRUSHES" :o my REL-B&W combo to bits and pieces! ;D ;D ;D.
Not only in sound but in its cost too!
HuWOW! Baka mapa home audition ako ng ProAc ng di oras sa nabasa kong to ah. ;D
Studio 110 ba? or Tablette?
-
if you are in this hobby long enough you will sooner or later realize that the porma factor or the size factor has nothing to do on how a speaker will sound.
For me its not about how a book shelf speaker can beat a floorstander or vice versa. There will be no clear cut winner on this one. There are examples of each variety that can out perform the other. For me Its not true that floorstanders are hard to drive as compared to BS. This is totally dependent on the specs of the speaker itself and not on the size of the cabinet. Its also not right to generalize that FS speakers cant touch BS in terms of imaging and SQ. One can beat the other in any given time. It will all depend on the speaker model, set up, positioning, associated electronics. Floorstanders boomy in small rooms? there are bass shy floorstanders that can sound just right in a small room. Positioning problem perhaps thats why it sounds boomy. So many variables and combinations to consider.
-
Not only this, but also with sub/bookshelf combo, you remove compromises in getting the best audio - because you can now place the bookshelf to a position of better imaging, and position the sub separately to a position of better LF propagation - this is the area where endless work will not even solve FS proposition in coming up with the best in LF/mid positioning as they require different placement, unless of course, you are prepared to face your compromises (I mean, more compromises on top of what is inherent in any speaker).
Exactly. BS allows you to position the speakers to achieve the best stereo stage imaging possible, independently of positioning the sub/s to achive the best bass response for your room. And it's a common observation that the speaker position for best imaging is not the same and is often in opposition with the best postion for good bass response. For instance, best bass is often near corners or boundaries which is the worst position for getting the best stereo imaging.
Hence, in general, FS are really compromising best stereo imaging and best bass response. But ofcourse there are exceptions with excellent FS models out there designed precisely to minimize these compromises inherent in FS. That's why there are FS models meant to be positioned further away from boundaries to deliver both great imaging and great bass. Just a matter of finding which FS model can really deliver both in spades.
-
one thing inherent that I noticed in the SQ of bookshelves that I have previously owned...they may have the uncanny ability to sound good in coherence, imaging depth, width but almost always they have a hard time getting the height of the soundstage. Example of this is that you may get that feeling that Jacintha is singing right in the middle and right smack front of you if you close your eyes on a BS system but if you pin point the height of the stage, she will always sound like she is 3 to 4 feet tall only ??? a midget singer perhaps hehe. it kinda ruins the sense of realism if you lack that aspect in imaging. getting a system to image in the center is the easy part. getting the stage height, width and depth is the hard part and often the most difficult to achieve not to mention pace, rythm and timing.
-
And that is perhaps why some receivers have this "height" channels, using the 8th and 9th channels to drive speakers a meter or so above the fronts to convey a perception of height. I think the Yamaha Z9 has this. ;D
And those 6ft and 7ft tower speakers with an array of dome or ribbon tweeters and mid rangers from head to foot can do a convincing job to impart that total immersion to stereo image. Like those towering Genesis speakers. ;D
But I think speakers with respectable on axis vertical dispersion trait should be able to address this perception of height adequately.
-
well for me adding extra channels and synthesizing the sound for these channels by a home theater receiver in order to come up with a realistic sense of the height aspect in imaging isnt my piece of cake and I believe it will never will be.
6ft and 7 ft towers are just the ultimate in the speaker world but the entry price for these giants are just to much to swing by mere ordinary mortals. I have heard speakers replicate the height aspect but are much much less expensive as compared to the Dunlavys, Evidence series, Genesis etc. Examples of these speakers are the ff: Model 3A Vandersteen (48 inches high) and a custom made Voigt speaker. for me those towers and behemoths give new meaning to the word REALISTIC :o
-
The vandersteens are great, specially their subs with three 8" woofers.
-
I once stacked a Celestion Sl6si on top of two LARGE floorstanders, the tweeter was in the 6.5 height, tilted about 20 or so degrees, It reminded me of the Wilson X-1, very imposing and scary in my smallish room, what did I get ?...a singer that was singing and standing in front of me !!! it was more realistic compared to the "midget 4 foot singer" when the BS was in the regular stands. I reckon this is the same presentation that some of the owners of super floorstanders get
one thing inherent that I noticed in the SQ of bookshelves that I have previously owned...they may have the uncanny ability to sound good in coherence, imaging depth, width but almost always they have a hard time getting the height of the soundstage. Example of this is that you may get that feeling that Jacintha is singing right in the middle and right smack front of you if you close your eyes on a BS system but if you pin point the height of the stage, she will always sound like she is 3 to 4 feet tall only ??? a midget singer perhaps hehe. it kinda ruins the sense of realism if you lack that aspect in imaging. getting a system to image in the center is the easy part. getting the stage height, width and depth is the hard part and often the most difficult to achieve not to mention pace, rythm and timing.
-
qguy
precisely what i mean. People might rave on how good a bookshelf speaker sounds but it you are really after the accurate reproduction of the 3D image (height, width and depth) then the height factor would be almost always be compromised in a bookshelf set up that is about 36 inches high only so in short you only get 2D imaging unless you consider listening to midget singers as realistic . We are only talking about soundstage here and we still have to factor in Pace, Rythm and Timing not to mention Coherence, Accuracy.
-
one thing inherent that I noticed in the SQ of bookshelves that I have previously owned...they may have the uncanny ability to sound good in coherence, imaging depth, width but almost always they have a hard time getting the height of the soundstage. Example of this is that you may get that feeling that Jacintha is singing right in the middle and right smack front of you if you close your eyes on a BS system but if you pin point the height of the stage, she will always sound like she is 3 to 4 feet tall only ??? a midget singer perhaps hehe. it kinda ruins the sense of realism if you lack that aspect in imaging. getting a system to image in the center is the easy part. getting the stage height, width and depth is the hard part and often the most difficult to achieve not to mention pace, rythm and timing.
what BS was this? try anything from the 30T pricepoint and above...see the difference between a good BS and a good FS....a good example would be proac, studio20..just make sure the electronics are as good.
-
Accastil,
Through the years I have tried and owned the ff bookshelves:
Dahlquist DQ20
Canton S plus
B&W DM302
JBL minimonitors
I have the ff bookshelves on hand right now:
Polk Audio M series minimonitors
Dynaudio Audience 40
Dynaudio Audience 50 (The multi awarded model...not the 52)
B&W Nautilus 805N
As you can see, im a big fan of Bookshelf type of speakers. A lot of them are imaging monsters in spite of their dimunitive size plus there are models that sound stupendously loud for its size (A50). Each model has its own strengths and weaknesses. Presentation and sonic signatures are so different to each other but one thing that you will notice after you listen to properly set up tower type loudspeakers is that the small bookshelves have a hard time replicating the height factor of the soundstage criteria (and of course the scale and bass weight). it just hovers around 4ft tall and thats it. I can get the depth and the width right but the height stills fall short of expectations for me. I listen to a variety of musical genres and at a level that I believe to be loud for others already. Now for the towers, its different because of the physical size of the cabinets plus the location of the drivers really project the image around 5 feet or more making it a lot realistic to my ears. Kung bakit pa kasi ako naka pag audition ng malalaking speakers eh.... :'(
-
Then just place the bookshelf speakers on a 4ft tall stand. That would be about the same as a 5ft tall FS. The important thing is that the tweets are approximately of the same height as your ears when you're seated in your sweet spot, if the speakers are D'Appolito arrayed. Or midway between the tweets and mid driver for most 2-way speakers. BS can actually give better flexibility with this as you can always vary or customize the stand's height. Most afforadable FS are just 3 - 3.5 ft tall. So may want to put them on short stands.
-
Then just place the bookshelf speakers on a 4ft tall stand. That would be about the same as a 5ft tall FS. The important thing is that the tweets are approximately of the same height as your ears when you're seated in your sweet spot, if the speakers are D'Appolito arrayed. .....
or use a lower listening chair. but true, most floorstanders are really "punggok" compared to a bs on stands. This is the reason why 6-12" "floorstander platforms" have a market :)
-
Maybe the real point of contention for me would be how a two way bookshelf speaker measure up to a two way floorstander (same manufacturer, same drivers). would the added bass eight edge out the small bookshelves or would bass control win it for the small bookshelves? we cant compare BS + sub to floorstanders because that would be unfair. if you augment a floorstander w/ a sub then the comparison would be fair. speaker to speaker lang dapat.
-
Maybe the real point of contention for me would be how a two way bookshelf speaker measure up to a two way floorstander (same manufacturer, same drivers). would the added bass eight edge out the small bookshelves or would bass control win it for the small bookshelves? we cant compare BS + sub to floorstanders because that would be unfair. if you augment a floorstander w/ a sub then the comparison would be fair. speaker to speaker lang dapat.
you could start comparing the ff bookshelves and floorstanders of the same brand:
wharfedale diamond 8.2BS vs. 8.3FS
B&W 602BS vs. 602.5FS or 603FS
mordauntshort 902BS vs. 904FS
wharfedale diamond 9.2BS vs. 9.4FS (?)
or use a lower listening chair. but true, most floorstanders are really "punggok" compared to a bs on stands. This is the reason why 6-12" "floorstander platforms" have a market :)
mismo! usually some speaker companies make a bookshelf version and a floorstander version using the same driver (woofer) size; ex. above is the wharfedale diamonds 8.2 / 8.3 and 9.2 / 9.4- same 6.5"woofer 1"tweeter same crossover point= 2k. perhaps its a marketing ploy - kung ayaw mo gumastos para sa speaker stands, eto kunin mo next model - floorstander.
for "height" factor - try wharfedale diamond 9.6 ;D
-
Oweidah
yes a lot of companies manufacture BS and FS that have the same driver compliment but almost always the FS has been tuned to put out a much lower freq response which results into higher bass slam or bigger output at the low end freq spectrum. They dont manufacture those FS for "porma's" sake and they even have identical specs than that of the BS version meaning all you need is the same amount of power to drive both types which totally negates the notion that FS are harder to drive.
they manufacture those to suit different needs (room requirement, positioning options) and different tastes (low end extension,bass control, coherence)....plus of course they are assured that no matter what your preference are they have a chance to get your hard earned cash hehe ;D
maybe if we could do a shootout between those models that you mentioned then once and for all we will have an objective/subjective answer to this FS VS. BS thing. One cant do a reliable conclusion by utilizing speakers from different brands/models. so many different parameters and factors that can influence the outcome. BTW the 9.6 is one big speaker for a typical medium sized room. heard it once at a shop in Makati and it looked mighty impressive although it sounded kinda confused when the music began to be demanding (orchestral accompaniment usually). Oh well...thats a different story altogether :)
-
Oweidah
yes a lot of companies manufacture BS and FS that have the same driver compliment but almost always the FS has been tuned to put out a much lower freq response which results into higher bass slam or bigger output at the low end freq spectrum. They dont manufacture those FS for "porma's" sake and they even have identical specs than that of the BS version meaning all you need is the same amount of power to drive both types which totally negates the notion that FS are harder to drive.
they manufacture those to suit different needs (room requirement, positioning options) and different tastes (low end extension,bass control, coherence)....plus of course they are assured that no matter what your preference are they have a chance to get your hard earned cash hehe ;D
maybe if we could do a shootout between those models that you mentioned then once and for all we will have an objective/subjective answer to this FS VS. BS thing. One cant do a reliable conclusion by utilizing speakers from different brands/models. so many different parameters and factors that can influence the outcome. BTW the 9.6 is one big speaker for a typical medium sized room. heard it once at a shop in Makati and it looked mighty impressive although it sounded kinda confused when the music began to be demanding (orchestral accompaniment usually). Oh well...thats a different story altogether :)
sir synchro_01,
i dont believe people buy FS just for "porma" factor. as i posted, if the customer doesnt want to spend for speaker stands to pair with the BS then they could go for the FS version. they may have the same driver size, impedance, sensitivity, even the same crossover point. the similarities ends there. sound quality is another matter.
re:9.6 i gave that example in response to markmlists post - certainly 9.6 aint a "punggok" FS ;D
tho i have never heard the 9.6 singing orchestra/ classical.
yung narinig mo na 9.6 pwede rin hindi matched sa gears na kapartner nya- baka mas bagay sa ibang amp or a change of cables might do the trick etc.
last week i enjoyed listening to a fellow member's 9.6 driven by an amx integrated tube amp el34pp- ultralinear and triode mode using an ordinary sony cdp and biwired- chordcarnival silverplus LF and qed silver anniversary xt HF played some vocals, some rock never impressed me that it was dazed & confused. ;D
-
oweidah
I also heard the 9.6 belt out rock tunes...solid tumunog :o sa classical and fast orchestral works lang medyo parang hirap syang integrate yung 4 drivers to sound as one and make the speaker disappear. Maybe its just my preference :) cheers bro
-
oweidah
I also heard the 9.6 belt out rock tunes...solid tumunog :o sa classical and fast orchestral works lang medyo parang hirap syang integrate yung 4 drivers to sound as one and make the speaker disappear. Maybe its just my preference :) cheers bro
Synchro_01
yeah kanya-kanya lang talaga sa audio. cheers!
sana may makapag-post actual user reviews/comparisons of BS vs. FS from same brands ex. wharfedale 8.2 vs. 8.3 / 9.2 vs. 9.4, B&W602 vs. 602.5 or 603, Mordauntshort 902 vs. 904.
tnx
-
if you are in this hobby long enough you will sooner or later realize that the porma factor or the size factor has nothing to do on how a speaker will sound.
Yes brotha! I had already seeen the light! Jolly luya! O0
But I still cant help it if the "porma factor" comes into play even now when I am looking for new speakers, whether BS or FS. Its just part of my personal preferences. I just dont like the plain vanilla looking speakers. Been looking for real wood veneer or piano finish BS's lately in my auditions, SQ is still of primary importance though. At least you have something cool looking to stare at while you listen to music. Also it adds points to the WAF, wife acceptance factor ;D.
Just me.
Floorstanders boomy in small rooms? there are bass shy floorstanders that can sound just right in a small room. Positioning problem perhaps thats why it sounds boomy.
Hmm, I cant understand why you would choose a "bass shy" FS. I thought that one of the reasons you go for FS is the added bass. Maybe you mean "tight bass" , like I heard with Dynaudio FS.
Positioning, perhaps. I was just too lazy to type the whole scenario, " In my experience, a 2 woofer, rear ported, 1m tall, 25 cm wide floorstander positioned at 30 cm from the sides & 60 cm from the rear wall, using xx receiver in a bare walled place (plus measurements), was sometimes boomy." just not me ;D
But at least the words "in my experience" are there. Other experiences can be different & they are welcome to share theirs. Nobody is claiming anything as fact here, just subjective observations. :)
-
sir synchro_01,
... pwede rin hindi matched sa gears na kapartner nya- baka mas bagay sa ibang amp or a change of cables might do the trick etc...
Unless all variables are controlled, the shootout will accomplish nothing - and will not even be a conclusive thing to determine if FS is better than BS.
the 3-dimensional thing in stereo audio is non-existent - (I think I remember this in one interview with Harman founders, and I agree) - in multi-channel 5.1, the 3 dimensional exists.
In my quest to determine my favorite amplifier, I had an event I did with my brothers. Having 5 amps to audition on a set of FS. I tried a branded surplus, and the imaging is good right on our listening seat. Followed by the next 1, and so on until 5 amplifiers go the rigors of tests. Findings?
We are quite perplexed by the variation - what contributed to what? 1 amplifier put the image right in the level of my listening position, another 1 sound like crap. Tried to find the answer, and I found out, the image is at 2 feet above my level of listening position (meaning, if I want the image, I have to adjust my seat 2 feet above). In the 3rd amplifier, the image is near the floor, another, at the exit door ;D ;D ;D.
So people dont want midget singer, I seconded the one who suggest put your speaker higher! ;D ;D - if the image is down low. If the image is high there, put your speaker near the floor - or probably just adjust your listening level position.
I remember putting my floorstander on a stand, because I want to adjust the image to my listening level! ;D ;D - or could have opted to be satisfied listening seated on the floor! ;D ;D ;D
Matching your speakers with the right amp, aiming it in the right listening spot, playing them in the right acoustical environment, and complementing them with the right compensator (as in SUBW for the BS) - will be rewarded with the best imaging plus the slam and LF propagation.
FS still has 2 challenges inherent into it as it is, (1) the compromises on each driver, and (2) the combo of mid/hi & LF in 1 box. BS/SUBW removed the challenge#2.
-
For me Its not true that floorstanders are hard to drive as compared to BS.
Now this I did not mention in this thread. Maybe you are referring to some of my posts in other threads.
Sir, maybe for you its not true cuz I have the impression you do not use entry level gears at all :-\. Almost any speaker you can throw at your high end gears/electronics will sound good :).
But for me & the regular Joe (or Juan), the majority in this forum who use entry level gears, maybe its a different case. My observations are mostly for HT & concerns entry level gears. I would like to clarify that I actually meant that FS "sound better" w/ upper class gears, but wont they all? There is no spec for "sound better" , not even the spec of sensitivity. IME, FS w/ some underpowered entry level AVR's do not sound good at all, but thats me. If there will be a speaker shootout, make sure there are those 14k receivers for test as well.
This is totally dependent on the specs of the speaker itself and not on the size of the cabinet.
If you are referring to sensitivity, I have auditioned enough FS & BS the past month to disagree with "specs" based on my experience.
I wouldnt always rely on specs for everything. Speakers are like cars or people. You can read the specs, Bio datas for people, brochures for cars. But you wouldnt buy a car based on specs alone, or hire someone based on biodata. Will marrying a 34-24-34 woman guarantee a long happy blissfull mariage? (mail order bride/ arranged marriage anyone?) LOL. You have to know them more by being with them. I wont use "audition them" cuz it sounds green: like audition your secretary or audition Inday comes into mind... ;D
Anyway, one example is that I have auditioned 86 sensitivity BS & a 89db FS w/ 2 woofers w/ the same low powered amp. The 86db BS was LOUD & sounded much better, the 89db FS could barely be audible.
In my auditions in audio shops, this amp rocked an 89db BS so I wanted to use it w/ the same brand FS with two additional woofers (3 woofers) @ 91 sensitivity. The shop owner claimed it wont be able to power it well. I said "But its 91 db!, sabi sa pdvd kaya daw yan!". Let me give you this store owner's response: "Audio is not only about specs or numbers, some in this hobby are 'by the book', specs driven people, but in my experience w/ all these speakers, you have to really test them yourself to know if an amp can really power them well."
2 days later I met another experienced hobbyist who also auditioned many FS & BS speakers in his search for his, He also rallied the store owner's viewpoint on specs. But there are some FS brands that can truly be easy to drive based on specs. But not all...
It will all depend on the speaker model, set up, positioning, associated electronics. So many variables and combinations to consider.
Just like you said, so many factors to consider... I agree with you on that one. :)
all for the sake of friendly discussion :-*
-
Unless all variables are controlled, the shootout will accomplish nothing - and will not even be a conclusive thing to determine if FS is better than BS.
Also, you need golden eared people to evaluate the differences in one sitting. Even the reviewers in websites, stereophile or other HT mags take some time (weeks or months) for them to truly evaluate a gear.
yeah kanya-kanya lang talaga sa audio. cheers!
sana may makapag-post actual user reviews/comparisons of BS vs. FS from same brands ex. wharfedale 8.2 vs. 8.3 / 9.2 vs. 9.4, B&W602 vs. 602.5 or 603, Mordauntshort 902 vs. 904.
tnx
Kanya kanya nga talaga yan.
Most of my reviews on FS & BS concern Mission speakers, HK & Yamaha receivers. I placed my list of equipments owned in my blog :D.
-
...
If you are referring to sensitivity, I have auditioned enough FS & BS the past month to disagree with "specs" based on my experience.
...
Anyway, one example is that I have auditioned 86 sensitivity BS & a 89db FS w/ 2 woofers w/ the same low powered amp. The 86db BS was LOUD & sounded much better, the 89db FS could barely be audible.
...
In my auditions in audio shops, this amp rocked an 89db BS so I wanted to use it w/ the same brand FS with two additional woofers (3 woofers) @ 91 sensitivity. The shop owner claimed it wont be able to power it well. I said "But its 91 db!, sabi sa pdvd kaya daw yan!". Let me give you this store owner's response: "Audio is not only about specs or numbers, some in this hobby are 'by the book', specs driven people, but in my experience w/ all these speakers, you have to really test them yourself to know if an amp can really power them well."
2 days later I met another experienced hobbyist who also auditioned many FS & BS speakers in his search for his, He also rallied the store owner's viewpoint on specs. But there are some FS brands that can truly be easy to drive based on specs. But not all...
...
LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I suddenly remembered my brother and I contacted a Celestion FS seller (4 units in all) coming from a foreign work. Before going there, search the specs in the web and the appearance of the speaker model - and looks like the claim of high sensitivity was true (as shown in web hits). So, me and my bro, armed with a vintage amp, went to the seller, adrenalin high, and test a pair.
...
pffffftt . . . ???
what's wrong?
We went home bringing nothing ... what a sensitivity crap ! Or probably our amplifier that sounded loud on the speakers that we already have, but was eaten whole by those celestions :-[
... this is an incident that also contributed to a solid audio reasoning today. No guess work ... no hype work ... don't rely on marketing specs ... don't listen to poetic evaluation ... fire it & listen.
Kapag nag umapaw ang kaligayahan mo sa tunog na narinig mo, saka mo na ilabas ang pera mo! Saka mo na intindihin pano salagin ang banat ng commander! ;D ;D ;D
-
In my understanding, there are factors to consider in selecting your speakers, first BUDGET, secondly ROOM SIZE third is your TYPE OF MUSIC you want. It's true that floor stander speakers have lower frequency range compared to bookshelf type. However, again it depends on the speakers. In my experienced, vocals coming from bookshelf are cleaner compared to floorstander (thats just me) maybe it's the speakers (not so good) well still if I have money I still go to floorstander like Genesis, Eutophia, 800 series (B&W) Stradivari........etch
-
Sir, maybe for you its not true cuz I have the impression you do not use entry level gears at all :-\. Almost any speaker you can throw at your high end gears/electronics will sound good :).
But for me & the regular Joe (or Juan), the majority in this forum who use entry level gears, maybe its a different case. My observations are mostly for HT & concerns entry level gears. I would like to clarify that I actually meant that FS "sound better" w/ upper class gears, but wont they all?
the category of the gears is not the one in question here. its the comparative analysis between bookshelves and floorstanders irregardless of the cost of the electronics. FS speakers does not automatically sound better with "upper class gears" as you may say it. Synergy is key here...not the cost of the associating gears. :)
If you are referring to sensitivity, I have auditioned enough FS & BS the past month to disagree with "specs" based on my experience.
In my auditions in audio shops, this amp rocked an 89db BS so I wanted to use it w/ the same brand FS with two additional woofers (3 woofers) @ 91 sensitivity. The shop owner claimed it wont be able to power it well. I said "But its 91 db!, sabi sa pdvd kaya daw yan!". Let me give you this store owner's response: "Audio is not only about specs or numbers, some in this hobby are 'by the book', specs driven people, but in my experience w/ all these speakers, you have to really test them yourself to know if an amp can really power them well."
true...specs of the gears are not a guarrantee that you will get the performance that is written on the spec sheet nor will it guarantee you that it would sound good but it is a guide so that you as the consumer could determine what kind of associated gears you will need more or less. Speaker manufacturers take pains in determining what kind of ancilliary equipment are needed so that their product which in this case is the speaker, will more or less perform as they have designed it to be without any compromises. Example, its foolish and downright silly to buy a Contour 3.0 with an 85d/b sens @ 4ohms if you have a 3 watter tube amp on hand. The cone with the 3 inch voicecoil might not even move at all but for individuals who like to see for themselves and try it out w/o relying on the spec sheet as a guide then its up to you if you have time and resources to do so. Bottomline is that you rely on the specs as a guide but definitely the testing and the home audition would determine the final result if it will indeed be a good match or not.
;D
-
What was the question again? :-*
;D
-
Eto po sir! ;D ;D ;D
sirs ;) ,
- which is a truer audiophile set-up (well again, that's a relative question)? i feel that audio buffs tend to favor bookshelf speakers over floorstanding ones (?).
- what are the variables to consider here? type of music, tweak-ability, etc.
salamat!
:)
Pero para dito po yung contribution ko ... ;D ;D ;D ;D
...
- what are the variables to consider here? type of music, tweak-ability, etc.
...
... particularly don sa "etc." ...
So tell everything ... no restrictions ... anything under the audiophile sun ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Synergy is key here...not the cost of the associating gears. :)
more synergy mas happy ;D
-
Eto po sir! ;D ;D ;D
Pero para dito po yung contribution ko ... ;D ;D ;D ;D
... particularly don sa "etc." ...
So tell everything ... no restrictions ... anything under the audiophile sun ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Parang nasagot na din niya yun tanong eh? ::) under the "that's a relative question". ;D
Seriously, been reading the thread from some time now and it has indeed "captivated" my thoughts. ;D
-
once again let me repeat..under a cost-no-object environment, BS doesnt stand a chance against a FS. but talking of the same pricepoint, a FS wouldnt stand against a BS/sub combo. here is an example...FS like egglestonworks, strativaldi, grand apogee, evidence master, watt puppy, grand enigma, grand utopia would crush even the best BS/sub combo on earth. however, given a 50 thousand BS/sub and another 50 thousand peso FS, it is just common sense and understandable that the BS/sub combo would provide better sonics. get the point :)...why is this? FS produces more box resonance than BS..but then, the insanely expensive FS most probably has gotten a way to fix the unwanted box resonance..but all this at a very large expense.
-
... the insanely expensive FS most probably has gotten a way to fix the unwanted box resonance ...
Did everybody get this? ;D ;D ;D
Indeed!!! Physics 101 explained and applied! :D
-
once again let me repeat..under a cost-no-object environment, BS doesnt stand a chance against a FS. but talking of the same pricepoint, a FS wouldnt stand against a BS/sub combo. here is an example...FS like egglestonworks, strativaldi, grand apogee, evidence master, watt puppy, grand enigma, grand utopia would crush even the best BS/sub combo on earth. however, given a 50 thousand BS/sub and another 50 thousand peso FS, it is just common sense and understandable that the BS/sub combo would provide better sonics. get the point :)...why is this? FS produces more box resonance than BS..but then, the insanely expensive FS most probably has gotten a way to fix the unwanted box resonance..but all this at a very large expense.
Maganda yan, to compare these speakers at the same price point.
I always advice this: Usually, for the cost of an entry level FS, you can buy a mid level BS (of the same brand) w/ much better refinement & SQ. You need to get a better receiver of course, but comparing the sonics of the 2, its a no brainer for me to pick the mid level BS instead.
just my 2 cents.
-
Get both FS and BS and get both flavors. Just dont forget to buy an amp that can accomodate the power ratings required by either of the two. However, kapag meron limit ang budget then it would be dependent upon ones ears on which speaker to get.
-
Get both FS and BS and get both flavors. Just dont forget to buy an amp that can accomodate the power ratings required by either of the two. However, kapag meron limit ang budget then it would be dependent upon ones ears on which speaker to get.
I did ... after 2 years, the FS has to go!!! ;D ;D ;D The BS did not compare well with FS, in mid/hi dept, sold it at an amount equivalent to 2 pairs more of same BS - voila, 6.1 BS! No hyping will ever convinced my ears! ;D ;D ;D
-
Bump :)
-
What I do not like with bookshelfs is that it cannot be easily paired with a subwoofer in a tube amp setup, most tube amp setup i've seen do not have subwoofer.
-
Maybe they just don't like using subs.
-
What I do not like with bookshelfs is that it cannot be easily paired with a subwoofer in a tube amp setup, most tube amp setup i've seen do not have subwoofer.
why dont you do it differently? Maybe, if you showed your success to them, they will follow you, instead of you following them!
-
why dont you do it differently? Maybe, if you showed your success to them, they will follow you, instead of you following them!
I think the problem will be how to feed a signal to the sub. for SS preamps/integrated amps there's always a balanced recording line out, tubes usually have just enough preouts for bi-amping. And in keeping with purist ideas regarding the signal chain, they won't be willing to use the speaker outputs to feed the sub, since it will disrupt the simple and/or straight signal chain principle. Even I wasn't happy with the sound when I tried it, waste of speaker cable.
my personal take on the FS vs BS thing, I barely noticed the difference in the midrange upgrading to a Wharfe 8.4 from an 8.1; what I assume seems to be a more "forward" presentation with the latter was more like I get considerably more bass now, so it wasn't that the midrange was "forward", the bass was just lacking on the BS. At first it the 8.4's lacked focus, but that was because I assumed they'd have the same positioning given they're in the same series; I needed to position them another 1m or so apart. In any case it will all come down to listening.
-
I think the problem will be how to feed a signal to the sub. for SS preamps/integrated amps there's always a balanced recording line out, tubes usually have just enough preouts for bi-amping. And in keeping with purist ideas regarding the signal chain, they won't be willing to use the speaker outputs to feed the sub, since it will disrupt the simple and/or straight signal chain principle.
I understand the problem, but I doubt if that is not solvable with present techniques in electronics. If the input is a CDP, then it is not a problem. If it is a TT, then somebody (following tube practice), can DIY a high-impedance low-freq out from phono circuits if the objective is to keep your tube amp/pre-amp from any alteration.
Though in another note, purist ideas is just ideas. Listening is the "eating" part. Try it and listen. Not all SS-speaker pairing are good. It follows not all tube-sub pairing is good. Short of saying, there can be a tube-sub matching that can be good. Or sound-ear matching can also occur. After all, as you said it, all should come down to listening.
The first strike may not always be good, as we have learned in this hobby, but persistence to find a good match, gear-speaker or sound-ear, will lead you to what you want to hear in a system. It's good you tried it though.
-
I've been using BS all my life, until recently when I just 'had to' try out a FS.
My most recent BS stayed with me for a year. Honestly, I was very reluctant to let go of it, as I was very pleased with its sound. But then, like I said, I just had to try and own a FS. At first, it sounded like some of the detail that I enjoyed with the BS was missing, I was somewhat disappointed, and I felt that the BS integrated better with my sub. However, after several nights of experimenting with positioning and sub crossover, I finally got the detail that I wanted, plus better mid-bass. Needless to say, my FS will be here to stay with me for many years. ;D
This is just to share my personal experience with everyone here.. ;) Like someone said, it's a matter of synergy, and that makes possibilities endless with this hobby of ours. ;D
Does my system sound perfect to my ears? Still no.. and I think a subwoofer upgrade is my next step forward, but that's another story. ;)
-
im a BS user for quite a long time now. i have to confess a FS would be better if:
-the room size would be larger than 20sqm
-the choice of music is more inclined into disco/rock or other genres having lots of bass.
otherwise, id still go for a nice BS. a BS/subwoofer combo btw could sometimes better a lone FS.
-
Guys,
What do you suggest for an HT and Audio setup Bookshelf or Floorstanding type of speakers? Is it true that Bookshelf speakers wins over floorstanders in terms os soundstaging and imaging?
-
IMHO, for HT purposes, I believe that floorstanders are the better speakers. This comes from a first hand experience. My very first set-up was a Yamaha HTIB. Then I upgraded to Wharfedale floorstanders. You can really feel the difference in sound. It's more fuller/bolder...more whole. ;D
-
This is true in the sense that both loudspeakers bookshelves and floorstanders were compared using a small room. Large floorstanders needs space. So if you have a small room, bookshelves will be the better option.
Guys,
Is it true that Bookshelf speakers wins over floorstanders in terms os soundstaging and imaging?
-
i'm contemplating on whether or not to use a bookshelf or a floorstander. my options are (1) bookshelf: mission mv-4 (2) floorstander: mission mv-6. i'm just planning to put it in my bedroom. my receiver is a denon 3802. sub is a velo vx-10
-
get a floorstander so that in the future you dont need to upgrade anymore if you decide to upgrade also getting bookshelves mean you have to get stands rin so i would consume space just like a floorstander unless u plan to hang it
-
Sir for HT imho you can just get BS speakers since it will be set to small settings anyways since all Lfe will be handled by your SUB naman :) What you can save from buying the BS instead of the FS can be put to other use, maybe for an additional SUB ;) :D :)
-
For HT, bookshelf is enough since they produce sound effects only and don't forget to add a very good sub (very important in HT). But for audio, I prefer floorstanders because of their soundstage and imaging. The music soundstage is bigger as compared to bookshelf. I'm comparing the same line of speakers and brand. IMO the floorstanders version is better than their bookshelf version in the same line. (Unfair to compare different lines and brand). Note that room size is an important factor too. If your room is small, bookshelf is the way to go since floorstanders will sound boomy.
-
get a floorstander so that in the future you dont need to upgrade anymore if you decide to upgrade also getting bookshelves mean you have to get stands rin so i would consume space just like a floorstander unless u plan to hang it
I strongly agree with brader Simon...do you see your HT set-up to be in your bedroom for the rest of your exsistence? :P I mean...later on, i assume you will want a dedicated HT and having floorstanders will hinder you from upgrading, unlike the bookshelves. ::)
-
If you're going the floorstander route, I would suggest you look into the 3-way type. By 3-way I mean a floorstander that has dedicated drivers for lows, mids, highs (i.e. having tweeter, midrange, woofer).
-
consider the ff:
-your room size
-your type of music
-your sound preference (criteria)
BS or FS...it wud depend on your answers on the considerations laid above.
goodluck
-
consider the ff:
-your room size
-your type of music
-your sound preference (criteria)
BS or FS...it wud depend on your answers on the considerations laid above.
goodluck
+1
Room Size is critical. You may have the best BS speaker but if you have a very big space, then you wont enjoy it. I'd prefer a FS for possible bigger frequency range.
-
when i auditioned the wharf 9.1 (BS) and 9.4 ( FS), the 9.1 sounded better than the 9.4, mas malinis.
-
when i auditioned the wharf 9.1 (BS) and 9.4 ( FS), the 9.1 sounded better than the 9.4, mas malinis.
this would have major dependency on your room size and the type of music youve used as reference.
try playing michael jackson hits from both pairs..try playing pearl jam. i dont think youll have the same bias.
also, the space could be too crowded for the FS to prevent sounding muddy.
-
when i auditioned the wharf 9.1 (BS) and 9.4 ( FS), the 9.1 sounded better than the 9.4, mas malinis.
the 9.4 doesn't seem like a legitimate floorstander. Think of it as a 9.2 with stands. Try the 9.5 or 9.6 to hear the difference. :)
-
floorstanders are better than bookshelves. pero mostly pang surround kasi yung bookshelf sa usual HT so di mo naman kailangan ng stander kasi di naman masyado tumutunog yun. bookshelves para din makatipid ;D
-
floorstanders para sa akin pang fronts lang mas madali kasing magupgrade pag ganun. ;D
-
my room size is around 18-20sqm. is it better for me to get bookshelves or floorstanders?
i plan to use them as all around speakers (TV, Games, Movies, Audio). Would floorstanders suffice sub-bass duty?
i dont want too much cable laid around the room so perhaps 2channel setup. revamping my room at the moment :D
thanks.
-
my room size is around 18-20sqm. is it better for me to get bookshelves or floorstanders?
i plan to use them as all around speakers (TV, Games, Movies, Audio). Would floorstanders suffice sub-bass duty?
i dont want too much cable laid around the room so perhaps 2channel setup. revamping my room at the moment :D
thanks.
that's quite a large room! i'm sure you'll need a separate sub. even with my 20 sq ft room i prefer the sound of bookshelves or floorstanders (set to small in the av receiver) + sub. using a separate sub to handle the very low frequencies removes the stress from the main speakers trying to reproduce the very low notes. that way the midbass and higher frequencies are more accurately reproduced. i just make sure the sub is seamlessly integrated with the mains.
If you're going the floorstander route, I would suggest you look into the 3-way type. By 3-way I mean a floorstander that has dedicated drivers for lows, mids, highs (i.e. having tweeter, midrange, woofer).
+1
but for ht you'll really need a sub. most towers can only go down to 30-35 hz while movies contain signals with much lower frequencies.
-
that's quite a large room! i'm sure you'll need a separate sub. even with my 20 sq ft room i prefer the sound of bookshelves or floorstanders (set to small in the av receiver) + sub. using a separate sub to handle the very low frequencies removes the stress from the main speakers trying to reproduce the very low notes. that way the midbass and higher frequencies are more accurately reproduced. i just make sure the sub is seamlessly integrated with the mains.
+1
but for ht you'll really need a sub. most towers can only go down to 30-35 hz while movies contain signals with much lower frequencies.
i remeasured again my room, kung tama conversion ko from inches (162in x 238in) to meter, lalabas 24sqm.
of course nandito kama, computer table, tv 32incher lang, 3 seater sofa, bookshelf and a coffee table.
ill try to draw up the scheme of my room so that you could have an idea of my room and recommend me what type of speakers to get.
thanks.
-
Haha if budget is not a constraint... Get both!
Have the HT speaker FS, im assuming on speaker A for HT. Then the BS in speaker set B for music.
or better yet have them auditioned using your Receiver.
;)
-
hi bros suggestions nyo naman sa pag setup...i changed my fronts to a 3way FS kasi...do i set is as Large sa AVR or leave it as small then let the sub do the work as usual? tnx :D
-
hi bros suggestions nyo naman sa pag setup...i changed my fronts to a 3way FS kasi...do i set is as Large sa AVR or leave it as small then let the sub do the work as usual? tnx :D
set them as large.
-
if you have the sub then don't change it to large
-
hi bros suggestions nyo naman sa pag setup...i changed my fronts to a 3way FS kasi...do i set is as Large sa AVR or leave it as small then let the sub do the work as usual? tnx :D
you probably know this already, but in an effort to help...
as per advice from very knowledgable and experienced members here, try finding out what the lowest frequency is that your fs can play (i used individual frequency tracks, playing them until i found the frequency that the FS could no longer play)... then set the FS to large, then your sub's frequency to about 5 to 10hz higher than the lowest that the FS can play para may integration ang FS-sub...
-
(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/j0hans0n/Room-1.jpg)
My room is a bit cramped/clutter king here :D
perhaps instead of floorstanders, bookshelves plus a sub since the FS still needs a sub to go with it.
what do you guys think? :D
-
Cant decide the size of speaker to get? Then compromise ;)
Try to look for those 18-20" high bookshelf speakers like the B&W 602s3 or the Proac Response D2.
-
Bookshelf! Bookshelf kasi gamit ko. ;D
-
bookshelf + sub is the simplest form of bi-amping. this setup relieves the a/v receivers internal amplifiers of the high power required to reproduce bass. less power = cooler amp + cleaner sound + longer amp life. this article is one that persuaded me to go bookshelf + sub:
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
-
hi bros. yup im using the MS avant 908i. it has passive sub. im using a velo cht10r for my sub din.
ive been setting my speakers sa AVR to small ever since pero i changed my fronts to this one nga so i was just wondering if ever setting it to large would be better then using the sub at the same time. also as mentioned in the specs its freq response it 35-22k but im not sure if thats accurate...
http://www.mordauntshort.com/specifications.php?PID=53&Title=Specifications (http://www.mordauntshort.com/specifications.php?PID=53&Title=Specifications)
advise lang kayo bros....tnx! :D
-
hi bros. yup im using the MS avant 908i. it has passive sub. im using a velo cht10r for my sub din.
ive been setting my speakers sa AVR to small ever since pero i changed my fronts to this one nga so i was just wondering if ever setting it to large would be better then using the sub at the same time. also as mentioned in the specs its freq response it 35-22k but im not sure if thats accurate...
http://www.mordauntshort.com/specifications.php?PID=53&Title=Specifications (http://www.mordauntshort.com/specifications.php?PID=53&Title=Specifications)
advise lang kayo bros....tnx! :D
a bit OT: how much does those floorstanders costS?
-
hi bros. yup im using the MS avant 908i. it has passive sub. im using a velo cht10r for my sub din.
ive been setting my speakers sa AVR to small ever since pero i changed my fronts to this one nga so i was just wondering if ever setting it to large would be better then using the sub at the same time. also as mentioned in the specs its freq response it 35-22k but im not sure if thats accurate...
http://www.mordauntshort.com/specifications.php?PID=53&Title=Specifications (http://www.mordauntshort.com/specifications.php?PID=53&Title=Specifications)
advise lang kayo bros....tnx! :D
The best way is to try. :) If your AVR has enough punch, setting them to large may be better as you'd have a more coherent sound source. You can still keep the sub for the LFE channel and for extreme lows.
Of course there is also the option to not use the powered sub altogether, and whether you'd like doing this is really your option. Listen and go with what you like. :) Personally, I am pretty happy with the lows of large towers, and don't use dedicated subs. I just make sure that I have enough power available to let the towers reproduce the lows.
-
a bit OT: how much does those floorstanders costS?
ygpm sir sorry now ko lang nakita yung thread nalipat pala ;D
-
The best way is to try. :) If your AVR has enough punch, setting them to large may be better as you'd have a more coherent sound source. You can still keep the sub for the LFE channel and for extreme lows.
Of course there is also the option to not use the powered sub altogether, and whether you'd like doing this is really your option. Listen and go with what you like. :) Personally, I am pretty happy with the lows of large towers, and don't use dedicated subs. I just make sure that I have enough power available to let the towers reproduce the lows.
hi sir noted and tnx! usually i set them to large if i listen to stereo audio.
-
Sir kt pardon my ignorance but what do you mean below? Is it literally changing your settings on your receiver to large everytime you want to listen to stereo audio? Will pressing the pure direct or source direct on your receiver will give you the same benefit of playing your speaker full-range? I maybe wrong...newbie lang po.
hi sir noted and tnx! usually i set them to large if i listen to stereo audio.
-
yes, set your floorstanding speakers to large in your avr and make sure you set SUB to Off or None too. some subs are quite slow so it's better to listen just using your main speakers especially if they're capable of going low.
-
Sir kt pardon my ignorance but what do you mean below? Is it literally changing your settings on your receiver to large everytime you want to listen to stereo audio? Will pressing the pure direct or source direct on your receiver will give you the same benefit of playing your speaker full-range? I maybe wrong...newbie lang po.
hi sir! yup i do change the setting on my avr to large if i want my fronts only without the sub on stereo listening. or sometimes i also use the sub with the setting LFE as both.
-
yes, set your floorstanding speakers to large in your avr and make sure you set SUB to Off or None too. some subs are quite slow so it's better to listen just using your main speakers especially if they're capable of going low.
hi sir is this for stereo audio listening or for HT purposes as well?
-
In my experience, there is better response when setting the floorstanders to small and using subwoofer on movies. For (stereo) music setting the FS to large and not using subwoofer is better especially jazz, classical music.
My setup: My FS is always set to small, with subwoofer on. For movies I just use any of those yamaha DSPs or DTS standard/expanded. For stereo sources, I just use "pure direct", in this mode FS is automatically set to large and the SW disabled. For dance/R&B, entertainment->Disco gives me that "boom". The FS combines with the SW crossover at 80Hz. Pioneer 30Hz-35Khz FS being driven by yamaha 7.1 AVR.
-
Will pressing the pure direct or source direct on your receiver will give you the same benefit of playing your speaker full-range? I maybe wrong...newbie lang po.
Pure Direct or Source Direct is different from simply selecting a full-range frequency option.
Pure Direct or Source Direct bypasses non-essential internal circuitries in the receiver such as bass/treble/loudness controls, balance controls, digital processing, equalization, etc., to provide the shortest path for the audio signal and ensure pure, uncolored sound quality.
A Direct option also turns off the receiver's front panel display and video circuitries to reduce possible noise and interference with the audio signal.
-
In my experience, there is better response when setting the floorstanders to small and using subwoofer on movies. For (stereo) music setting the FS to large and not using subwoofer is better especially jazz, classical music.
My setup: My FS is always set to small, with subwoofer on. For movies I just use any of those yamaha DSPs or DTS standard/expanded. For stereo sources, I just use "pure direct", in this mode FS is automatically set to large and the SW disabled. For dance/R&B, entertainment->Disco gives me that "boom". The FS combines with the SW crossover at 80Hz. Pioneer 30Hz-35Khz FS being driven by yamaha 7.1 AVR.
hi sir! same with me i set my fronts to large when audio listening in stereo. then for movies usually on small then use the sub as well. in my case i upgraded my fronts to a 3 way with passive 10" side firing sub so i was wondering if setting this to large on movies would be better? or still set to small? tnx
-
you can still make use of your 10" passive sub even when mains are set to small by using a lower crossover frequency, say 40, 50 or 60hz... whichever is available with your yamaha. much better when you can set your x'overs to different frequencies for your center and rear too.
hi sir is this for stereo audio listening or for HT purposes as well?
the one i posted previously is meant for stereo listening... especially if you have a more ht-centric sub than being musical.
-
ygpm sir sorry now ko lang nakita yung thread nalipat pala ;D
thanks for the reply :D
@barrister
so direct is the way to go for stereo (music) playback?
-
Pure Direct or Source Direct is different from simply selecting a full-range frequency option.
Pure Direct or Source Direct bypasses non-essential internal circuitries in the receiver such as bass/treble/loudness controls, balance controls, digital processing, equalization, etc., to provide the shortest path for the audio signal and ensure pure, uncolored sound quality.
A Direct option also turns off the receiver's front panel display and video circuitries to reduce possible noise and interference with the audio signal.
hmmm... now I am a bit confused. I thought that in using 'direct stereo', in a way, is like setting the front speaker to 'large' as the AVR now bypasses even the subwoofer and is now directing the entire range of front left and right channel signals to the floorstanders.
when I use 'direct stereo' in listening to 2 channel sources, I could have swear I hear the entire range from the FS. This is not written in the manual directly. Just an assumption on my part :) so please feel free to correct me.
now that is a bit OT. To answer the thread, I am for floorstander because of its flexibility in handling all kinds of sources (movies, multi channel music, pure stereo).
-
hi sir! same with me i set my fronts to large when audio listening in stereo. then for movies usually on small then use the sub as well. in my case i upgraded my fronts to a 3 way with passive 10" side firing sub so i was wondering if setting this to large on movies would be better? or still set to small? tnx
Try them both.
I personally prefer large if there is enough amp power available, and if the speakers can handle it (obviously your towers can). This helps the sub concentrate on the LFE channel, and generally sounds more cohesive (with less localization). This way, the sub works more like a true subwoofer, and not a more audible bass module.
In some receivers, this would reroute the lows from the center channel (and sometimes the surround channels) to the front speaks (instead of redirecting them to the sub) if they're set to small. Also, some receivers still apply a high pass filter on the speakers even if they're set to large, as long as the sub is on (bass redirection still happens, but at a lower crossover point).
-
@barrister
so direct is the way to go for stereo (music) playback?
Not necessarily.
If you want the purest signal, then yes, the direct mode is the best option.
I notice that good recordings sound best on a direct mode. But if the disc you're playing has a bad recording to start with, then a direct mode will not make much of a difference.
hmmm... now I am a bit confused. I thought that in using 'direct stereo', in a way, is like setting the front speaker to 'large' as the AVR now bypasses even the subwoofer and is now directing the entire range of front left and right channel signals to the floorstanders.
when I use 'direct stereo' in listening to 2 channel sources, I could have swear I hear the entire range from the FS.
If we limit the comparison to the frequency range of the signals sent to the to the fronts, then a direct mode would be the same as setting the front channels to "Large", since both modes use the full frequency range.
However, a direct mode goes one step further than just using a full frequency range, since it will also bypass internal circuitry for tone controls, EQ, DSP, bass management, video, and front panel display.
It depends on how the manufacturer implements its direct modes. On my Yamaha, Pure Direct bypasses everything. Other AVRs have a Source Direct mode that bypasses only the tone controls, EQ, and bass management; and a Pure Direct mode that additionally bypasses the AVR's front panel display and all video circuitry.
-
you can still make use of your 10" passive sub even when mains are set to small by using a lower crossover frequency, say 40, 50 or 60hz... whichever is available with your yamaha. much better when you can set your x'overs to different frequencies for your center and rear too.
the one i posted previously is meant for stereo listening... especially if you have a more ht-centric sub than being musical.
ok noted sir! im using the cht10r
-
Try them both.
I personally prefer large if there is enough amp power available, and if the speakers can handle it (obviously your towers can). This helps the sub concentrate on the LFE channel, and generally sounds more cohesive (with less localization). This way, the sub works more like a true subwoofer, and not a more audible bass module.
In some receivers, this would reroute the lows from the center channel (and sometimes the surround channels) to the front speaks (instead of redirecting them to the sub) if they're set to small. Also, some receivers still apply a high pass filter on the speakers even if they're set to large, as long as the sub is on (bass redirection still happens, but at a lower crossover point).
hi sir. i do have a power amp as well. so do i change the settings of the XO on the sub and the avr as well? currently its set at 80hz on both.
-
In my experience, there is better response when setting the floorstanders to small and using subwoofer on movies. For (stereo) music setting the FS to large and not using subwoofer is better especially jazz, classical music.
My setup: My FS is always set to small, with subwoofer on. For movies I just use any of those yamaha DSPs or DTS standard/expanded. For stereo sources, I just use "pure direct", in this mode FS is automatically set to large and the SW disabled. For dance/R&B, entertainment->Disco gives me that "boom". The FS combines with the SW crossover at 80Hz. Pioneer 30Hz-35Khz FS being driven by yamaha 7.1 AVR.
very same setting except that i only a 5.1 avr, yammy as well. ;)
-
My preference leans towards to bookshelves when I listen to music. And due to limited space, I think BS are more than adequate for my needs. But I use floorstanders for my video room.
-
(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/j0hans0n/Room-1.jpg)
My room is a bit cramped/clutter king here :D
perhaps instead of floorstanders, bookshelves plus a sub since the FS still needs a sub to go with it.
what do you guys think? :D
go with the BS..
NICE room huh..
-
It depends on the quality of the speakers. A good bookshelf (audiophile grade - in the tradition of legends like the best budget bookshelf Mission 731/i/pro, Kef Cresta, Monitor Audio Bronze to mid levels like MA silver, B&W 601/2, Dynaudio 42/52 to high ends like Proac and Harbeth) can outclass most floorstanders, unless they were from the same quality brands (e.g., Dynaudio 72, B&W 683, and the 2 most sought after FS speakers at the moment - Monitor Audio RS6 and Dali Ikon 6). But generally, bookshelves achieve far better driver integration, hence have better imaging and soundstaging than floorstanders, which have the edge in terms of grip and presence, especially when the music requires them.
-
ive been through many BS, a few odd speaker designs, and a FS when i started the hobby. it is normal for us to long for what we do not have. hence, a BS if you already have an FS, and vice versa.
as to the choice whether itd be a BS or FS, there are no wrong and right answers. we have different room sizes, sound preferences, types of music, budget limitations, etc...
i for one, settled for the longest time, with a fine BS. this could be a result of my music type, room size, sound preference too...but its just me.
just remember 1 important thing. dont pay for anything you havent listened to in your own listening area, using your own gears and your own CDs/LPs.
i hope this helps. :)
-
How do you know if your room is too small for a floorstander or too big for a bookshelf?
I am currently looking for speakers and I do have limited space (wall to wall setup). With my current setup (pioneer htib speakers with denon 790), the front speakers are around 6 feet away from my listening position while the surrounds are around three feet away. The area (with dining) is about 5m x 3m, although there is no door leading to the kitchen (around 3 x 2 i think). My ceiling is around 4.3 meters high so that makes my living room + dining room occupy a total of 64 cubic meters, more or less. Almost 100% movies as of now, but I may play music every so often once I hook up my ipod.
I think compared to floor standers, bookshelf speakers plus stand will cost almost as much and will occupy as much space as well. So, I am on the fence on this one. Hope to get some inputs. Thanks.
Btw, I plan to invest on a good sub at a much later date as I plan to build my ht piece by piece. If needed, I will probable get a cheap one first (or an amp for the passive htib sub) to compensate for the lack of grunt (bookshelves, they say, usually require subs).
-
Floorstanders are not necessary if you plan on using subwoofers. But this hobby is not about what is necessary.
Yes, bookshelf speakers on stand can cost about as much as floorstanders in the same series. And will occupy the same real estate/footprint because of the stand. So either option can be a problem for small rooms. Unless you do a ceiling mount.
The one advantage I see with bookshelf speakers, is once you have the stand, it's easier and cheaper to go shifting from one bookshelf brand to another. One other advantage of bookshelf speakers on stand is you can get better speaker placement and eliminate the temptation of putting them on a shelf which is a big no-no.
Small rooms are problematic because to get good stereo imaging, you need speakers to be placed farther from room boundaries, say a quarter of a meter away. You might not be able to do that whether bookshelf or floorstanding. Room mode excitation is also more severe in smaller rooms. Yvor options coiuld be limited to small bookshelf or satellite type speakers in really tight rooms. Personally, if I want to enjoy great sounding music in small rooms, not that you can't have one, I'd rather use an iPod Touch with those HiFi in-ear earphones. Just a thought. ;D
-
...Personally, if I want to enjoy great sounding music in small rooms, not that you can't have one, I'd rather use an iPod Touch with those HiFi in-ear earphones. Just a thought. ;D
...and spend the rest of the money on massage chair and/or Sennheiser HD800 and/or ... (limitless options) ;D
-
Small rooms are problematic because to get good stereo imaging, you need speakers to be placed farther from room boundaries, say a quarter of a meter away. You might not be able to do that whether bookshelf or floorstanding. Room mode excitation is also more severe in smaller rooms. Yvor options coiuld be limited to small bookshelf or satellite type speakers in really tight rooms. Personally, if I want to enjoy great sounding music in small rooms, not that you can't have one, I'd rather use an iPod Touch with those HiFi in-ear earphones. Just a thought. ;D
In short, I should just save all my money and try to save up for a new place ;D
So better to stick with my htib speakers then? I was planning to upgrade them a bit since they kind of distort in certain movie sequences. I was actually looking into the tsi200 or wharfedale 10.2 as against their fs counterparts.
-
In short, I should just save all my money and try to save up for a new place ;D
So better to stick with my htib speakers then? I was planning to upgrade them a bit since they kind of distort in certain movie sequences. I was actually looking into the tsi200 or wharfedale 10.2 as against their fs counterparts.
sir this is not an expert's bits and pieces but just to share with you, my HT room is 3M by 3M only but i believe i was able to achieve the kind of SQ that I really wanted. Im using a diamond 9.1 and 9cm for my HT set up with Sabre Sentinel as stand for the 9.1. For the audio. im using a 9.5. Some friends here advised me to do some inexpensive stuff to improve the SQ like covering my plasma with beach towel when i listen to audio stuff, putting bass trap at the back corner and using egg trays as diffusor. IMO FS and BS occupies the same foot print in the room and space so the room size will not be of any benefit or dis advantage wheter using BS or FS. it boils down to the SQ and qulaity of the FS or BS you will be using, but that is all a different point of discussion. :)
-
9.1 as front and surrounds? No sub?
-
In short, I should just save all my money and try to save up for a new place ;D
So better to stick with my htib speakers then? I was planning to upgrade them a bit since they kind of distort in certain movie sequences. I was actually looking into the tsi200 or wharfedale 10.2 as against their fs counterparts.
Most HTIBs are modestly powered and can't really accomodate the dynamic power headroom demanded in DVD soundtracks. It's also possible that their speakers are not up to the task. By all means upgrade, small room dimensions are a limiting factor to getting the best sound possible with your gears, but that doesn't mean better gears won't sound better than mediocre ones in those rooms, even if incremental.
-
9.1 as front and surrounds? No sub?
9.1 as front, 9CM as center 9DFS as surround, subwoofer is SVS PB10NSD.
-
up ko lang.
are you a floorstander or bookshelf listener?
i started with floorstander went to bookshelf and now floorstander again but there are bookshelf now that can really go low. ;D
-
Bookshelf for me. But if I have a bigger room it will be both for me.
-
Currently using 6-feet tall floor standers. It is alike a wall of music enveloping me.
Finding it difficult to go back to the more intimate sound of a bookshelf.
Based on experience
a) Bookshelf speaker win in intimacy
b) Floor Standers in involvement.
-
For me, i would go for floorstand if we compare with BS on the same model. The added ambiance is a welcome addition. However, kalimitan the FS version is priced close to the next upper tier BS and if ill build a new system, i would definitely go for the higher model BS. Another thing to consider is how important to you the low frequencies. Most of my friends who came from car audio and some HT peeps ay hinahanap hanap ung rumble and thumb na wala sa BS. Another good point is the room ss highlighted by mykel. The idea of audio reproduction is to replicate the recordings in appropriate scale considering your defined stage/room. I onced heard an array speaker in a small room and hindi ko nagustuhan, nawawala stereo separation/imaging and all the instruments images big compared to the room size.
-
floorstander only setup:(no subwoofer)-over all: better on Music
pros 1. better sound because of the separation of the highs,mids and lows
into separate woofers;
2. better soundstage and depth;
3. better localization on the bass because situated on both
left and right speakers;
4. more powerful amp required.
cons 1. more expensive
2. requires medium to large room and difficult to toe in,toe out
3. bass not so deep.
bookshelf plus subwoofer setup: over all better on Movies
pros 1. less expensive
2. deeper and louder bass c/o subwoofer
3. placement of speakers is easier and easier to focus to the listener
cons 1. bass is localized in one location i.e. location of the sub
2. more difficult to integrate subwoofer to BS
3. requires stands,hence adds to the cost.
just my opinion though.
-
Bookshelf for my Audio and HT setup..
-
I read somewhere that sometimes FS are just BS with built-in stands. Hehe!
-
bookshelf for me, HT and audio.
mas madali bitbitin kung kinakailangan, lalong lalo na kung ang lugar eh binabaha. ;D
yun lang po comment ko, bow! >:D
-
bookshelf with subs for me than floorstanders, tried rti A9 before. :-X
-
I read somewhere that sometimes FS are just BS with built-in stands. Hehe!
True with most 2-way entry level FS. Very common sa Wharfedales, current example is 10.1 and 10.3.
If I were to spend an equal amount for a BS+sub or a FS only system, I'd go with the former.