Topic: Separation of church and state

[dpogs]

be a part of His Church

Romans 12:4-8
4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

so salvation is by joining a church?

another question po: what comes first: salvation or membership?

[Moks007]

The "end is near" stated in the Bible by Jesus Christ is in my opinion telling us that we just have to be prepared all the time. Repent and Accept him as your personal savior. For example, the people who just suddenly collapse and die, freak accidents riding on your motorcycle, head on collisions with other cars etc. etc. You will never know when is your time but just be prepared. Once you go thats it, no ifs and buts. I think that is what Jesus is saying na repent, accept him as your personal savior for the end is near.

[choy]

so salvation is by joining a church?

another question po: what comes first: salvation or membership?

can you first share what you understand when we say "church"?

[choy]

The "end is near" stated in the Bible by Jesus Christ is in my opinion telling us that we just have to be prepared all the time. Repent and Accept him as your personal savior. For example, the people who just suddenly collapse and die, freak accidents riding on your motorcycle, head on collisions with other cars etc. etc. You will never know when is your time but just be prepared. Once you go thats it, no ifs and buts. I think that is what Jesus is saying na repent, accept him as your personal savior for the end is near.

why do you keep saying "personal"?

is Jesus just for one person?  and individual?  does he treat us all as individuals?  separate from one another?

[dpogs]

can you first share what you understand when we say "church"?

exactly... we are not in the same perspective....

nang sinabi kong we dont need church (or religion) for our salvation. joining certain denomination/sect/religion is not a guarantee for salvation.


salvation first before we become the body of Christ (the Church).


sinabi mo po na to one with Jesus is to be part of His Church...

be a part of His Church

Romans 12:4-8
4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

my question po is: how to be part of His Church? (or in other words how to be save?)

John 3:16 "For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believeth on him will not perish but have everlasting life".

this is a very familiar words to us... and yet this verse speaks whole about salvation...

salvation is believing not joining any denomination.

[oweidah]

o.t. for sir dpogs

will manny pacquiao be saved (not by the bell)?
how about mommy dionisia? - maraming santo at santa
both sarado katoliko, hindi born-again.

[dpogs]

why do you keep saying "personal"?

is Jesus just for one person?  and individual?  does he treat us all as individuals?  separate from one another?

we are accountable on our own actions... salvation/belief in God/ is a personal choice...

if it is not personal... my question is... how did you come up with your belief... is it your decision or somebody's decision?

[Moks007]

why do you keep saying "personal"?

is Jesus just for one person?  and individual?  does he treat us all as individuals?  separate from one another?

I believe each person has its own individual relationship with Jesus Christ. No two persons are alike. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in ( if you believe that )

[bass_nut]

I believe each person has its own individual relationship with Jesus Christ. No two persons are alike. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in ( if you believe that )

x2 ...the HOLY SPIRIT enlightens  

the word "personal" may have been used so as to avoid being misconstrued as sharing what we know and firmly believe as universally known and accepted BIBLE messages sometimes trigger some negative reactions..

again, when confused, the HOLY SPIRIT enlightens  

[dorian_gray]

Hmmm...pansin ko lang: lahat yata ng threads dito ay may mga Bible passages kahit na pulitika ang topic.

Most of the time, nagiging OT na yung mga replies.

I wonder if it is possible to refrain from doing this.

[alistair]

salvation/belief in God/ is a personal choice...

That's not what I'm getting from the free-will/predestination thread.

[choy]

exactly... we are not in the same perspective....

nang sinabi kong we dont need church (or religion) for our salvation. joining certain denomination/sect/religion is not a guarantee for salvation.


salvation first before we become the body of Christ (the Church).

oh, but baliktad ang intindi mo

you can't be saved unless you are part of this Body of Christ
therefore if you are not part of the Church, you are not saved

sinabi mo po na to one with Jesus is to be part of His Church...

my question po is: how to be part of His Church? (or in other words how to be save?)

John 3:16 "For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believeth on him will not perish but have everlasting life".

this is a very familiar words to us... and yet this verse speaks whole about salvation...

salvation is believing not joining any denomination.

ah, if that verse is the only thing you need for salvation, what about the other 99% of the Bible?

you are hinging salvation on only one verse.  but that is not the whole truth

yan ang problema sa inyong mga Bible-only Christians, you read one verse and you base an entire faith of off one verse, minsan out of context pa yung verse.  the bible was never meant to be read nor interpreted piece by piece.  lest you only submit yourself to the partial teaching of Christ.

[choy]

we are accountable on our own actions... salvation/belief in God/ is a personal choice...

if it is not personal... my question is... how did you come up with your belief... is it your decision or somebody's decision?

we are repsonsible not only for our own actions, but for our brothers

Matthew 18:15-17
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that  ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it  to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


Jesus asks us to deal with our brothers who sin against us

remember the two commandments of Christ, love God and love neighbor.  claiming Jesus as a personal savior distorts what His true mission on earth was, its to save ALL.

[Nelson de Leon]

One more question Dpogs, what if, nagugunaw na ang mundo and then I had a chance at that instance to proclaim, "sasapi ako sa pananampalataya ni Dpogs".  Ok lang yon?  Or meron deadline to join?  Just curious ne.  Wag mo masamain yung tanong.

Kase maski sa movies, you'd see the main characters (the good guys) reciting The Lord's Prayer kapag imminent na yung death.  Will that work in your belief?

Napag-usapan din namin ito. Lalo na kung pre-meditated meaning, "pagmamatay na ako, dun ko na lang tatanggapin si Jesus". Sabi nila, depende daw kung in your heart, mind and soul, tinanggap mo sya, even if matitinding kasalanan nagawa mo. Tanggap ka. But then, depende na lang sa sincerity mo. Pero mahirap nga naman maging sincere kung pre-meditated.

re free will and pre-destined, naniniwala ako.

Since we have free will, we can choose whatever path we take. Pre-destined meaning since we chose that path, there will be consequences sa action na yun.

example:

free will - I studied hard for the exams.

pre-destined - papasa ka.

[sardaukar]

re free will and pre-destined, naniniwala ako.

Since we have free will, we can choose whatever path we take. Pre-destined meaning since we chose that path, there will be consequences sa action na yun.

example:

free will - I studied hard for the exams.

pre-destined - papasa ka.

I understand what you're getting at but I don't think it will always work out that way.

example:

free will - I will not drink, I will drive very safely.

pre-destined ba na makakauwi ka safely? I think there's still a chance you can meet with an accident.

conversely:

free will - I will drink, I will drive drunk.

pre-destined ba na maa-aksidente ka? Hindi rin naman, may chance naman na makakauwi ka pa rin ng buhay.

[barrister]

Magka-kontra talaga ang free will and predestination.  Choose one.  You can't have both.

example:

free will - I studied hard for the exams.

pre-destined - papasa ka.

Kung predestined na papasa ka, mag-aral ka man o hindi, papasa ka.  Huwag ka na lang mag-aral, predestined naman na papasa ka e.

Kung predestined na babagsak ka, mag-aral ka man o hindi, babagsak ka.  Huwag ka na lang mag-aral, predestined naman na babagsak ka e.

Ang tama, mag-aral ka para mas malaki ang chance na pumasa ka.  Dahil hindi nga predestined ang pagpasa o pagbagsak.

Meron talagang predestination sa Bible, at napaka-simple lang intindihin.  Pero ang predestination sa Bible ay may ibang meaning, hindi pareho sa ordinary usage.

Napag-usapan din namin ito. Lalo na kung pre-meditated meaning, "pagmamatay na ako, dun ko na lang tatanggapin si Jesus". Sabi nila, depende daw kung in your heart, mind and soul, tinanggap mo sya, even if matitinding kasalanan nagawa mo. Tanggap ka. But then, depende na lang sa sincerity mo. Pero mahirap nga naman maging sincere kung pre-meditated.

Hindi lahat ng kasalanan ay may kapatawaran.  Sa Bible, may kasalanan na walang kapatawaran.

Kung hindi mo pa nagagawa ang ganoong kasalanan, puwede kang magsisi pag malapit ka nang mamatay.  Gaya ng sabi mo, depende sa sincerity.  Tulad ng magnanakaw na pinako sa tabi ni Hesus.  Inamin ang mga kasalanan, nagsisi, ayun --- kakasamahin daw siya sa Paraiso. 

Yung isang magnanakaw, matigas talaga ang ulo.  Mamamatay na nga, walanghiya pa rin.

Pero hindi lahat ay may pagkakataong magsisi bago mamatay.  Paano kung natutulog ka, namatay ka sa bangungot.     Malas mo.

   

[Nelson de Leon]

I understand what you're getting at but I don't think it will always work out that way.

example:

free will - I will not drink, I will drive very safely.

pre-destined ba na makakauwi ka safely? I think there's still a chance you can meet with an accident.

conversely:

free will - I will drink, I will drive drunk.

pre-destined ba na maa-aksidente ka? Hindi rin naman, may chance naman na makakauwi ka pa rin ng buhay.

You have a very concrete point there. Tama ka. Dito siguro papasok ang faith na pag hindi ka uminom ng madami, alam natin through faith na hindi tayo pababayaan mapahamak ng Creator natin.

Magka-konra talaga ang free will and predestination.  Choose one.  You can't have both.

Kung predestined na papasa ka, mag-aral ka man o hindi, papasa ka.  Huwag ka na lang mag-aral, predestined naman na papasa ka e.

Kung predestined na babagsak ka, mag-aral ka man o hindi, babagsak ka.  Huwag ka na lang mag-aral, predestined naman na babagsak ka e.

Ang tama, mag-aral ka para mas malaki ang chance na pumasa ka.  Dahil hindi nga predestined ang pagpasa o pagbagsak.

Meron talagang predestination sa Bible, at napaka-simple lang intindihin.  Pero ang predestination sa Bible ay may ibang meaning, hindi pareho sa ordinary usage.


Hindi lahat ng kasalanan ay may kapatawaran.  Sa Bible, may kasalanan na walang kapatawaran.

Kung hindi mo pa nagagawa ang ganoong kasalanan, puwede kang magsisi pag malapit ka nang mamatay.  Gaya ng sabi mo, depende sa sincerity.  Tulad ng magnanakaw na pinako sa tabi ni Hesus.  Inamin ang mga kasalanan, nagsisi, ayun --- kakasamahin daw siya sa Paraiso.  

Yung isang magnanakaw, matigas talaga ang ulo.  Mamamatay na nga, walanghiya pa rin.

Pero hindi lahat ay may pagkakataong magsisi bago mamatay.  Paano kung natutulog ka, namatay ka sa bangungot.    Malas mo.

Yes sir. Malas talaga.     

So dapat, habang nabubuhay pa tayo, we are given every chance para itama ang mga pagkakamali natin. Bakit kailangan pa nga naman na hantayin na mamamatay bago itama ang mga pagkakamali.

Ano ba yun kasalanan na walang kapatawaran. Hindi kasi ako nagbabasa ng bible masyado. Hehe!

Siguro sir, kung nag-aral at bumagsak, probably mali ang inaral natin. Hehe! Kung mali ang inaral natin, hindi sya papasok sa context ng nag-aral. IMHO lang...

[barrister]

So dapat, habang nabubuhay pa tayo, we are given every chance para itama ang mga pagkakamali natin. Bakit kailangan pa nga naman na hantayin na mamamatay bago itama ang mga pagkakamali.

Iyan na nga ang temang paulit-ulit sa Bibliya.  Dapat lagi kang handa, dahil hindi mo alam ang oras at araw.

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Matt. 25:13, NIV)

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. (Matt. 24:42-43, NIV)

Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed. (Rev. 16:15, NIV)

Ano ba yun kasalanan na walang kapatawaran. Hindi kasi ako nagbabasa ng bible masyado. Hehe!

Ang pamumusong laban sa Banal na Espirito ang kasalanan na walang kapatawaran.

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32, NIV)

I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. (Mark 3:28-29, NIV)

Kaya nga hindi totoo ang sinasabing kahit anong kasalanan daw any mapapatawad.  

Sa katunayan, ang isang taong gumawa ng kasalanang ikamamatay ay hindi na dapat pang ipagdasal ng isang Kristiyano, dahil ang dasal ay hindi na makakatulong sa kanya:

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. (1 John 5:16, NIV)

[aHobbit]

@choy

True Christianity, as taught by Christ, is not about religion, or joining one.

It is about establishing a personal relationship with God - gaining understanding of His will - and being like-minded with Him in treating Holiness.

The church is not a cursory to any religion. Being a member of the church is not being a member of a religion (in Biblical terms).

Being a member of the Church is to be counted as one of His children - those who understood salvation is through no other means but faith on the finished work of Jesus on calvary - those who have experienced the miraculous change in ones life.

We can not be perfectly sinless while in the flesh - but the church has natural abhorence of such - but still trust that salvation does not rest on anybody's accomplishmenyt of good works! Though you can not interpret a single verse, the whole book should be enough to give you the idea - read Galatians to see the whole placement of good works of man in the equation.

David premeditated the murder of Bathsheba's wife so he can totally get Bathsheba, and cover his sin - and yet such sin was not punished by God in the long term (eternity) - though He was punished in the short term (earthly life) - in fact, David is considered in true Christianity as "the Man after God's own heart!".

[aHobbit]

As for the unpardonable sin - there is only one.

Of course, the Bible talks about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - but what exactly is blashphemy of the Holy SPirit?

The rejection of Jesus and His works on Calvary as the sole remedy for your salvation - resulting to a life that is not acceptable to God's standard of Holiness!

[dorian_gray]

hay naku, hindi pa puwede stick to the topic?

Btw, I have noticed that the coverage of the pope's involvement in pedophile cases is not as comprehensive in the Philippines compared to the coverage here in Australia.

Is the Catholic church influencing Philippine media as well?

Pati ba naman free press kayang kalabanin ng simbahan?

[barrister]

... Of course, the Bible talks about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - but what exactly is blashphemy of the Holy SPirit?

The rejection of Jesus and His works on Calvary as the sole remedy for your salvation - resulting to a life that is not acceptable to God's standard of Holiness!

No, that's not it.

If it meant "rejection of Jesus", the Bible would have simply said "rejection of Jesus". 

"Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is a concept that is much deeper than that.

[oweidah]

sirs, anong say niyo sa christian ultra-conservative fundamentalist extreme right wing ng america?

true christians ba sila sir dpogs?

paano na ang separation of church and state?

may alingasngas dati na may kinalaman sila sa pagsakop ng mga bush sa iraq. para baguhin ang hilatsa ng middle east.

comments are welcome and appreciated

[aHobbit]

No, that's not it.

If it meant "rejection of Jesus", the Bible would have simply said "rejection of Jesus". 

"Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is a concept that is much deeper than that.

What could be deeper than one's rejection of Jesus ('til death I would say)?

Of course, I am putting it in simpler terms than trying to find a legal definition of it that would end just the same - one's Rejection of Jesus!

Yes, it could mean different to you because we subscribe differently to what biblical salvation is about?
I thought the same too before, until I understood the end meaning (or its correlation to Jesus) of it.

Or should you say one's rejection of Jesus ('til your last breath) is pardonable? While that of the Holy Spirit is not?

[aHobbit]

That's not what I'm getting from the free-will/predestination thread.

he he he

yep ... it might looked somewhat off-tangent.

the personal choice which led us to this quagmire maybe blamed on Adam who chose to disobey God.

but now, you should also blame yourself as well because you do the same as Adam (remember, our flesh situation is not our own doing, but of Adam's)

When HS quickens (made you alive) - you are poised to make the choice of choosing Him - there is nothing else to do since you are made to understand - and in man's viewpoint, you made the personal choice.

To them who are not enlightened, they continue to defy God - so its their personal choice (and they can not help it, since blindness is upon them).

In the first instance, you may attribute your personal choice because you were aided by the HS.
In the second instance, you can not blame God on your personal choice - blame Adam, and yourself!

[dorian_gray]

please stick to the topic.

It is about the separation of church and state. There are separate threads available to discuss bible verses.

So do you think it is time for all government officials sever their ties from any religious organization? Do you think this close relationship is affecting the politician's popularity?

[indie boi]

Personally, I don't think politicians should. Religion and faith should be a private matter anyway. But it surely must not affect what you need to do for the greater good.

I was listening to Rock Ed in NU 107 a few days ago and the topic was AIDS and one of the guests was Sec. Cabral of the DOH. Cabral advocates for the distribution of condoms to prevent STDs. When asked if she is afraid of the Catholic Church because what she is doing is against what they preach, this lady said that of course, she is afraid of the church. But this fear shouldn't stop her from doing what she thinks is right.

That woman is going to get my vote if she runs for senator.

[dorian_gray]

Don't Filipinos prefer god-fearing and not church-fearing? Or do we know the difference?

[dpogs]

Must be "god-fearing" not "church-fearing".


Iba ang may pagkakatakot sa Diyos at ang may takot sa simbahan.

[moejun]

Must be "god-fearing" not "church-fearing".


Iba ang may pagkakatakot sa Diyos at ang may takot sa simbahan.

i agree with this. that's what's ideal unfortunately many people fear the church more.