Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 172375 times)

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Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #300 on: Jul 02, 2012 at 09:42 PM »
Intelligent Design or Evolution?


Monument carved on the side of a mountain.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #301 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 03:53 AM »
Monument carved on the side of a mountain.

Carved spontaneously? by squirrels? naturally by wind air and water?

or Carved by a sculptor......in other words a "creator"?
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #302 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 04:46 AM »

you said; "Evolution is NOT Random"...then the opposite (deliberate) must be true!


"I believe it could be aliens."

"Then who created the aliens, or the aliens after them? We know that the universe is Finite! It had a beginning
in the distant past."
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #303 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 07:30 AM »
or Carved by a sculptor......in other words a "creator"?


So complex, so beautiful. Must've been carved? Or 'shopped?
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 12:44 PM by alistair »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #304 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 10:29 AM »
I am still waiting for a clear categorical answer to a very simple question.
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Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #305 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 12:03 PM »
Intelligent Design or Evolution?




hmmm... sa tingin ko... kung susundin ko ang pilosopiya ng mga evolutionist (kuno)... galing yan sa stro-rockaphilus ... the origin of all face-on-rock...  ;)



ganito yan million of years ago....



afetr million years ulit... ganito na siya





and of course... through evolution... ganito na siya ngaun...




at kung ating maoobserbahan (by observation daw)... 500 billion years ago.... eto ang pinagmulan niyan... ;D

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Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #306 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 12:25 PM »


This actually a proof that the 'young earth' belief of some creationists is wrong

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #307 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 12:48 PM »
I am still waiting for a clear categorical answer to a very simple question.
Answer my questions first?

Language which you love talk about. It's complex. It must've been designed?

If DNA was designed, why does it allow flaws? Wouldn't a Perfect Designer make a perfect design? Or, are you saying the flaws are part of the design. For what purpose?

So organisms can adapt to their environment. Oh, so Intelligent Design is behind Evolution?

Then why do we need ID if organisms evolve according to their environment anyway? Why not just create the environment perfectly suited for a specific organism, and that organism only, and have it reproduce perfectly (or live indefinitely)?

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #308 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 12:52 PM »
hmmm... sa tingin ko... kung susundin ko ang pilosopiya ng mga evolutionist (kuno)... galing yan sa stro-rockaphilus ... the origin of all face-on-rock...  ;)
Nah, wala sa Bible yan eh kaya hindi yan gawa nang Diyos.

There's a perfectly rationale, well-documented answer—one that passes Occam's Razor, was observed, can be repeated and can be tested (or falsified), and we all know what that is.

Alternatively, "It doesn't look like any human face I know, and no one I know can carve something that big with their hands.

It must've been created by aliens, for some mysterious purpose. That's what I believe, and you can't prove aliens don't exist!"
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 12:59 PM by alistair »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #309 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 01:58 PM »
Nah, wala sa Bible yan eh kaya hindi yan gawa nang Diyos.

There's a perfectly rationale, well-documented answer—one that passes Occam's Razor, was observed, can be repeated and can be tested (or falsified), and we all know what that is.

Alternatively, "It doesn't look like any human face I know, and no one I know can carve something that big with their hands.

It must've been created by aliens, for some mysterious purpose. That's what I believe, and you can't prove aliens don't exist!"

those rocks... they evolve... million years ago...  :D
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #310 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 02:04 PM »
those rocks... they evolve... million years ago...  :D

They are eroded.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #311 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 02:27 PM »
They are eroded.

hmm... maybe after 400 billion years pa ulit... by luck or by chance... magiging ganito na rin yan...

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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #312 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 02:35 PM »
hmm... maybe after 400 billion years pa ulit... by luck or by chance... magiging ganito na rin yan...



Wala ng earth after 400 billion years. Wala na ring solar system.

But yeah, it's possible na maging David yan.

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #313 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 03:16 PM »
hmm... maybe after 400 billion years pa ulit... by luck or by chance... magiging ganito na rin yan...
You still think Evolution is all random.

How about you stop trolling and come back when you know what "selection pressure" means?

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #314 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 03:41 PM »
You still think Evolution is all random.

How about you stop trolling and come back when you know what "selection pressure" means?

just show us the transition stage...

sa loob ng million of years (according to evolution timeframe) maraming mga transitional stage form na nagaganap and malaki ang probability na nafossilize ang mga yan... but then... wala pa ring solid evidence na nagpapakita ng direct link kung saan nga ba galing ang tao, ang kabayo, ang pusa, etc...

meron nga ba o wala... well... go on... keep digging... keep making theory and hypothesis... without solid ebedence ba...
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Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #315 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 04:15 PM »
meron nga ba o wala... well... go on... keep digging... keep making theory and hypothesis... without solid ebedence ba...
What's your theory?

I believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns.
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 04:18 PM by alistair »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #316 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 04:40 PM »
What's your theory?

I believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns.

Creation Theory of course... by faith.

parang Evolution Theory... by faith (na hindi inaamin ng iba na by faith)... pinaniwalaan ng iba kasi iyon daw sabi ng mga matatalinong tao eh at mga bihasang scientist o anumanlogist na yan...

Evolution is a religion... never been based on facts and hard evidence... you know what... the only thing that evolve on earth is the Theory of Evolution...

so many aritcles and paikot ikot lang sila... magkakaroon ng baong theory just to prove the existing theory na hindi pa napproprove... and then magkakaroon ulit ng panibagong theory just to validate the latest theory...


too much diggin... too much writin... too much discussion... bottomline... NO PROOF OF EVOLUTION.... only theories and hypothesis... ampf.
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Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #317 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 04:43 PM »
What's your theory?

I believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns.

I think the creationists believe in everything unexplainable...  ;D like tikbalang, kapre and the likes..
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #318 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 05:28 PM »
Creation Theory of course...
Oh, you mean where Adam's rib turned into Eve?

What's your proof? Can it be observed, repeated, falsified?

Quote
by faith.
I believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns. You can't falsify that, either. I mean, you can't prove they don't exist!

Quote
parang Evolution Theory... by faith (na hindi inaamin ng iba na by faith)...
E. coli evolved to metabolise citrate, in a lab, repeatable.

But I guess that's not a 'fact' like the Bible's facts.
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 05:31 PM by alistair »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #319 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 06:37 PM »
E. coli evolved to metabolise citrate, in a lab, repeatable.

Evolved, or adapted?

If the bacterium became a fish, we'd have something.  But since the bacterium is still a bacterium, what's so sensational about that?

Citrate metabolization in E. coli is not evolution.  In fact, it's not even a new ability that didn't previously exist in E. coli.  

Previous research has shown that wild-type E. coli can utilize citrate when oxygen levels are low.  Wild-type E. coli already have the ability to transport citrate into the cell and utilize it:  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC107412/

That's a 1998 paper, 10 years before the 2008 Richard Lensky report.

Since E. coli already has the ability to metabolize citrate under certain conditions, gaining the ability to utilize citrate under broader conditions is merely adaptation, not evolution.

Why does NewScientist magazine say it's "A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers' eyes. It's the first time evolution has been caught in the act of making such a rare and complex new trait."?

Is it intellectual dishonesty in an attempt to support an agenda?

    
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 06:42 PM by barrister »

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #320 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 07:07 PM »
Evolved, or adapted?
Fine, I'll grant adapted.

But large-scale Evolution is just countless adaptations over millenia.

Quote
If the bacterium became a fish, we'd have something.
Has already happened.

Quote
Is it intellectual dishonesty in an attempt to support an agenda?
I wouldn't know.

The point is, we have numerous repeatable and testable experiments and observations that support Evolution: DNA, genetics, mutations, the fossil record, Geology, solar system and planetary formation models.

All these point to a billions of years old Earth, with increasingly complex organisms over time.

So far, I haven't seen any repeatable or testable experiment or observation (or even just a model) for how a fully-formed extant organism or specie can suddenly appear out of thin air. That's what Creationists like to call a 'theory'.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #321 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 07:19 PM »
I admit that my creationist belief is unprovable because it's based on faith.  Because of that admission, I cannot be compelled to prove the truth of my belief.  However, if someone does not believe in creation, I should not compel him to believe in it.

On the other hand, evolutionists claim that their belief is a provable fact.  Because of that claim, it's logical that they should be challenged to prove this alleged fact.

So go ahead and prove it.

If scientists are really scientific about this, they should simply say, "We don't know," instead of continually jumping to baseless conclusions.  But they don't want to admit they don't know, because they're afraid that such a declaration would give too much room for loony creationist propaganda to take over.

Don't get me wrong.  I don't like the idea of creationist views and religion invading scientific space either.  I don't even like the ID (Intelligent Design) idea, because to me, that's nothing but a creationist agenda masquerading as science.  
 
« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 08:05 PM by barrister »

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #322 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 08:05 PM »
On the other hand, evolutionists claim that their belief is a provable fact.  Because of that claim, it's logical that they should be challenged to prove this alleged fact.

So go ahead and prove it.
It's really not that hard to understand.

Billions of years of mutations and adaptations to the environment gave us gradual increase in the complexity and variety of Life on Earth.

The 'facts' include an old Universe/Solar System, an old Earth, the fossil record, geology, archeology, biology, genetics, DNA, observable/documented instances of speciation, and so on.

(Creationists like to pick on these facts—cherry pick those that support their world view, while finding fault in those that don't. But they offer no rational, plausible alternative, say, for how the Sun was formed other than "Let there be light.")

The theory part comes in formulating a model to unify and explain all the above, and these include Natural Selection and Neutral Theory.

It's no different from the Theory of Electromagnetism, or Einstein's Theory of Relativity/Gravitation, or Quantum Physics, or  They're all scientific Theory which some can't distinguish from the vernacular theory.

Can we ultimately prove, for example, Game Theory? We can't, not in the vernacular sense of 'proof'. But Game Theory itself is nothing more than a unified model to describe various observations (of fact) in economics, psychology, sociology and biology.

Quote
Don't get me wrong.  I don't like the idea of creationist views invading scientific space either.
Likewise, I don't see anything fundamentally incompatible between belief in God and Evolutionary Theory.

(Well, except with Fundamentalists, of course. Science & rationality undermine their tithing.)

Offline Moks007

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #323 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 08:09 PM »
I have a question and this may sound stupid. ;D Pasensya na. ;D

Let's say me and my wife decided to live in a swimming pool. We eat the fishes there, algae, and eventually have a baby. We let our baby adapt and survive to the water surroundings. We eventually have generations (with another family) just living in the swimming pool. Does that mean in a few years, in a thousand years or in a million years, my kins will eventually grow fins and we will eventually look like Patrick Duffy sa tv series (which is one of my favs by the way when I was a kid. ;D), The Man From Atlantis? Will my kins and offsprings eventually be able to breath like fishes underwater? Is this really possible? We will eventually adapt and survive living in water?

Again sorry kung stupid itong question. I asked this bec. it seems like we are not evolving to something better. Why is that? I'm interested in the physical change. Will this happen?
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2012 at 06:55 AM by Moks007 »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #324 on: Jul 03, 2012 at 08:13 PM »
Likewise, I don't see anything fundamentally incompatible between belief in God and Evolutionary Theory.

(Well, except with Fundamentalists, of course. Science & rationality undermine their tithing.)

Not me.

I insist on keeping science and religion separate.  The moment science is infiltrated by religion, that's when things start getting nutty  :D.

You got your YEC ("Young Earth Creationists") insisting that there is clear scientific evidence that the earth is less than 7,000 years old, despite the overwhelming scientific data proving that the earth is billions of years old (4 billion + years?).  You got your Noah's Ark Ministries International allegedly discovering Noah's Ark wood and carbon-dating it.  Etc., etc.

It just gets loopier and loopier  :D.

« Last Edit: Jul 03, 2012 at 08:25 PM by barrister »

Offline indie boi

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #325 on: Jul 04, 2012 at 07:56 AM »
I have a question and this may sound stupid. ;D Pasensya na. ;D

Let's say me and my wife decided to live in a swimming pool. We eat the fishes there, algae, and eventually have a baby. We let our baby adapt and survive to the water surroundings. We eventually have generations (with another family) just living in the swimming pool. Does that mean in a few years, in a thousand years or in a million years, my kins will eventually grow fins and we will eventually look like Patrick Duffy sa tv series (which is one of my favs by the way when I was a kid. ;D), The Man From Atlantis? Will my kins and offsprings eventually be able to breath like fishes underwater? Is this really possible? We will eventually adapt and survive living in water?

We can look to walruses or seals for the answer to evolutionary changes that happen when land mammals go through adaptation and evolution to better live in an aquatic environment.

Quote
Again sorry kung stupid itong question. I asked this bec. it seems like we are not evolving to something better. Why is that? I'm interested in the physical change. Will this happen?


Some scientists have observed that humans are slowly losing hair because we're allowing the environment adapt to our needs for temperature control. We don't have much need of our appendix anymore. We're slowly losing our ability to produce wisdom teeth. Our eye's nictating membrane is slowly disappearing.

Our brain size is also increasing -- though sometimes you'd have to question whether a bigger brain really means more intelligence. ;)
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2012 at 07:58 AM by indie boi »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #326 on: Jul 04, 2012 at 11:58 AM »
Anybody here that can prove to us that living things came from non-living things?

hmmm... of course... usual answer is...

1. ".... well, give it a time (say, billion years) eventually life will come out from soup." (this is science of course... just add time then impossible (any) thing will happen)
2. "... probably, one theory (take note the next word) suggests that life came from amino acids etc etc etc (exact science it is... always a suggestions)
3. "... perhaps... we came from etc etc etc..."
4. "... hmmm... well... evolution theory is different from abiogenesis (from this term spontaneous generation na naging abiogenesis... ayos di ba... palitan lang ng term kasi nadisprove) so lets not talk about it... we are talking evolution..." (hmmm... what????)

if evolution theories contains a word "perhaps", "suggest", "probably", etc... then it is by faith (not scientific).

well... evolutionist base their thoery based on observation findings (if you are scientist you know it that you cant just believe something thourgh observing... you need to test it of course), fossils record (what really... fossils... remains... as a proof of evolution... naman!!!), experiment ( ??? ???... evolution in laboratory... akala ko evolution nangyari sa ibabaw ng mundo subject to all environmental factors), and of course lots of theories to prove other theories...
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Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #327 on: Jul 04, 2012 at 12:01 PM »
Anybody here that can prove to us that living things came from non-living things?

hmmm... of course... usual answer is...

1. ".... well, give it a time (say, billion years) eventually life will come out from soup." (this is science of course... just add time then impossible (any) thing will happen)
2. "... probably, one theory (take note the next word) suggests that life came from amino acids etc etc etc (exact science it is... always a suggestions)
3. "... perhaps... we came from etc etc etc..."
4. "... hmmm... well... evolution theory is different from abiogenesis (from this term spontaneous generation na naging abiogenesis... ayos di ba... palitan lang ng term kasi nadisprove) so lets not talk about it... we are talking evolution..." (hmmm... what????)

if evolution theories contains a word "perhaps", "suggest", "probably", etc... then it is by faith (not scientific).

well... evolutionist base their thoery based on observation findings (if you are scientist you know it that you cant just believe something thourgh observing... you need to test it of course), fossils record (what really... fossils... remains... as a proof of evolution... naman!!!), experiment ( ??? ???... evolution in laboratory... akala ko evolution nangyari sa ibabaw ng mundo subject to all environmental factors), and of course lots of theories to prove other theories...

Matanong ko naman kayo sir, san naman nanggaling ang creator nyo???
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #328 on: Jul 04, 2012 at 12:16 PM »
Matanong ko naman kayo sir, san naman nanggaling ang creator nyo???

My Creator is the alpha and the omega (period).





You still dont get it...  :D

IT IS BY FAITH... (i never mentioned that creation theory is scientific)...


if anyone says that evolution is in anyway... scientific... then prove it scientifically (hindi iyong puro hypotheis, theories, suggestions, recommendation... perhaps... etc etcd).


There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #329 on: Jul 04, 2012 at 12:54 PM »
We don't have much need of our appendix anymore.

The premise of this statement is that we formerly needed our appendix.  The logical question therefore is: What was the former function of the appendix that we no longer need today?

The evolutionist fairy tale is that the appendix is vestigial; a useless remnant of a formerly functioning organ that disappeared via evolution.  

And this conclusion is based on what?  Pure speculation, that's what.  But that shouldn't be surprising, since evolutionists are not bothered by baseless speculation masquerading as "science" anyway.

The appendix was formerly thought to be without any useful function.  But today, the appendix is recognized as a highly specialized organ with a contains a high concentration of lymphoid follicles --- highly specialized structures that are a part of the immune system.

Appendix Function in the Human Body
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/appendix.shtml


We're slowly losing our ability to produce wisdom teeth.

All that shows is degeneration, not evolution.

The loss of wisdom teeth in succeeding generations is the result of diet.  Older generations used to eat tough meat and vegetables; hence the need for a larger jaw that had enough space to accommodate wisdom teeth.  The processed food diet of succeeding generations caused the jaw to degenerate and shrink, thereby leaving less room for wisdom teeth.

How wisdom teeth can possibly be evidence for evolution is really some fairy tale from la la land.


 
Our eye's nictating membrane is slowly disappearing.

It's called a "nictitating" (not nictating) membrane.

Evolutionists believe that the plica semilunaris of the human eye is a vestigial remnant of the nictitating membrane (the "third eyelid") present in other animals such as birds, reptiles and fish.

In humans, the function of the plica semilunaris is to enable better mobility for the eyeball.  To allow the eyeball and lids to move independently, the conjunctiva forms a continuous sac above, laterally and below.  But medially, because of the presence of the lacrimal drainage apparatus, there is no conjunctival sac; instead, there is the plica semilunaris which is a crescentic fold of conjunctiva.  When the eye is abducted (turned outwards), the plica partially unfolds as the conjunctiva stretches so that movement is unimpeded. When the eye is adducted (turned inwards), a fibrous extension from the sheath of the muscle contracting the medial rectus draws the plica posteriorly, partially unfolding it and deepening the lacus lacrimalis.

So, the plica semilunaris in humans is just that --- a plica semilunaris.  

To arrive at the conclusion that the plica semilunaris is a vestigial remnant of a nictitating membrane is a pretty big jump considering the absolute lack of evidence.

Science na pala ngayon ang tawag sa mga Kuwento ni Lola Basyang.

« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2012 at 12:57 PM by barrister »