Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion

[Gino]

Argument is flawed. Therefore something caused God. Believers are ready to accept that God just is but unwilling to accept that the big bang's infinitesimal light energy simply was.

[leomarley]

Yes causality applies within our realm of time and space.

[docelmo]

I understand where you're coming from. But the big bang theory doesn't prove there is a god because it doesn't account for anything the happens before it. There is no event, no nothing before it. And there's only 1 universe.

Now, there have been concepts of multiverses, each formed by it's own big bang. Dito, pwedeng isingit yung existence ng god dyan. But not with the original big bang theory.

Correct bro, i agree that the theory doesn't prove the existence of God. My point is just on the similaties between theory and the bible regarding the start of the universe.

[docelmo]

Argument is flawed. Therefore something caused God. Believers are ready to accept that God just is but unwilling to accept that the big bang's infinitesimal light energy simply was.

Bro by definiton, God is uncreated, therefore no cause. Thus the statement is illogicall.

 The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. However God, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. Also, Einstein’s general relativity, shows that time is linked to matter and space at the start of the universe. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time. Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

[Quitacet]

What if i say there is a God who created this God we are talking about now?

[docelmo]

"Both religion and science require a belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists He is at the end of all considerations… To the former He is the foundation, to the latter, the crown of the edifice of every generalized world view.”

Max Planck - Nobel Prize winner in Physics, founder of Quantum Theory

[leomarley]

"Both religion and science require a belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists He is at the end of all considerations… To the former He is the foundation, to the latter, the crown of the edifice of every generalized world view.”

Max Planck - Nobel Prize winner in Physics, founder of Quantum Theory

that is what you call an opinion.

[tony]

the universe is estimated at 14 billion years...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
dinasours at around 230 million years...
mankind...200,000 years...
the bible...2000...
go figure...

[docelmo]

What if i say there is a God who created this God we are talking about now?

Sir, if you show can show me an ancient book, writing or evidence to the god who created God then i'll reconsider my position. But what do we have now is....The Bible! The book says God is Eternal or timeless, all-powerful He should be to create evrything! And He is also Spirit. Thus to say an eternal being has a creator is irrational.

[Nelson de Leon]

What if i say there is a God who created this God we are talking about now?

Yan ata yun gnostic?

[leomarley]

Sir, if you show can show me an ancient book, writing or evidence to the god who created God then i'll reconsider my position. But what do we have now is....The Bible! The book says God is Eternal or timeless, all-powerful He should be to create evrything! And He is also Spirit. Thus to say an eternal being has a creator is irrational.

yeeah... the ancient Egyptians have their Pyramid Texts and multiple books (i.e. Book of the Dead, Book of Am-Tuat, Book of Gates, etc.), Buddhists have their Sutras, the Greek mythology also has their own ancient texts, the Mayans have their codices, Hinduism has the Four Vedas same as the Indo-Aryans, ancient Canaanites also have tablets for their polytheistic religion, so on and so forth.

what's your point?

[docelmo]

that is what you call an opinion.

Doesn't make the Nobel prize winner's "opinion" any less valid, after all he is only a physicist. He has neither the wisdom nor intellect to make such a presumptious statement.

[leomarley]

Doesn't make the Nobel prize winner's "opinion" any less valid, after all he is only a physicist. He has neither the wisdom nor intellect to make such a presumptious statement.

whether or not it's valid is besides the point. it is still an opinion and should not be treated as truth. same as religious creationist beliefs.

[majoe]

nutation is not the reason for any planet's tilted axis. Venus has no moon yet its axis is tilted by approximately 177 degrees. you're saying that Venus is tilted because of nutation? Venus disproves that theory. also, if nutation is indeed the cause of Earth's axial tilt then the variation of the Earth's wobble would've been much greater than 1.2 degrees specially since you've mentioned millions of years but that is not the case.

of course, nutation is just one factor. the point is, as long as one celestial body causes perturbation to the other body, it can cause a change in  another body's position or orientation whether it precesses, tilts, or wanders. in the case of venus, it's the sun that causes most of the perturbation.

the prevailing theory that has merit is that an external force, about the size of Mars, colliding with the Proto-Earth, at a 45 degree angle. they have tested this in simulations which, in Science, is an acceptable evidence.

another theory that is gaining ground is attributed to glacier polar caps in the north pole back in the Ice Age. it is said that the Earth was tilted as much as 55 degrees and the build up and melting of glaciers might have created enough force to reduce the tilt to what it is now.

a minor theory is that earthquakes caused the axial tilt.

i have no objections to any of these scientific hypotheses or theories. as a God believer, my position is this. God will reveal Himself through his creation and these scientific studies and discoveries are tools to uncover those wonders.       

[docelmo]

yeeah... the ancient Egyptians have their Pyramid Texts and multiple books (i.e. Book of the Dead, Book of Am-Tuat, Book of Gates, etc.), Buddhists have their Sutras, the Greek mythology also has their own ancient texts, the Mayans have their codices, Hinduism has the Four Vedas same as the Indo-Aryans, ancient Canaanites also have tablets for their polytheistic religion, so on and so forth.

what's your point?

I was responding to sir Quitacet's statement that "there is a god that created the God in the bible", All the ancient writings you enumerated were the religions in ancient times and has no direct relation to the God of the bible. By far there is no writing that claims that the God of the bible has a creator.

[leomarley]

of course, nutation is just one factor. the point is, as long as one celestial body causes perturbation to the other body, it can cause a change in  another body's position or orientation whether it precesses, tilts, or wanders. in the case of venus, it's the sun that causes most of the perturbation.

in this case, the nutation is caused by Venus' tilted axis relative to its orbital plane around the Sun. not the other way around.

i have no objections to any of these scientific hypothesis or theories. as a God believer, my position is this. God will reveal Himself through his creation and these scientific studies and discoveries are tools to uncover those wonders.       

well, i'm not really a non-believer, more of agnostic, but i do believe that if there is a "god", it won't resemble any of the ones described by any religion. as i've said before in another thread, this "god" probably lives on a higher plane of existence. simply put, in a higher dimension not bound by our three spatial dimension and time. we can barely understand our 4-dimensional universe what more a being not bound by it? i doubt even that this being, if it does exist, knows that we exist. for all we know we might be living in a hologram as some physicists suggests.

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/universe-hologram

[leomarley]

I was responding to sir Quitacet's statement that "there is a god that created the God in the bible", All the ancient writings you enumerated were the religions in ancient times and has no direct relation to the God of the bible. By far there is no writing that claims that the God of the bible has a creator.

well, i was responding to your inference that we should just believe in the Bible. i'm responding to the position that we should not question, not be skeptical, not think critically, and just accept what was written on this ancient book. all those that i have mentioned are all "holy" scriptures. what makes the Bible better than any of them?

[barrister]

yeeah... the ancient Egyptians have their Pyramid Texts and multiple books (i.e. Book of the Dead, Book of Am-Tuat, Book of Gates, etc.), Buddhists have their Sutras, the Greek mythology also has their own ancient texts, the Mayans have their codices, Hinduism has the Four Vedas same as the Indo-Aryans, ancient Canaanites also have tablets for their polytheistic religion, so on and so forth.

what's your point?

I agree with this.

I believe in the bible, but I am against using the bible as proof that God exists, because that would just be begging the question.

Like using the bible to prove that the bible is true.  That's circualr reasoning, which is also a fallacy.

[majoe]

wiki didn't tell us the age. Science does.

and how did they determine the age of the stars? Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

no sarcasm intended when i referred to wiki
no contentions or objections. i definitely agree that the age of the sun is 4.56 billion years.

so how do we determine the age using einstein's theory of relativity?
pardon me for asking this. i'm just curious to know. google won't cooperate with me , hehe.
 

[docelmo]

I would conceed that there is no absolute proof of God's existence. However the discovery of laws of nature, such as gravity. All building blocks of life, the movements of the universe, planets etc do reveal His handiwork. As scientist continue to discover these laws that are already there in the first place. We are left with one inevitable conclusion......there is a Mind behind all these wonders we see all around us.


In the same manner that i believe in the existence of sir leomarley, quitacet, majoe, Nelson de leon, tony etc, etc. eventhough i can't see them.  The evidence is the intellect/mind behind comments posted in this thread.

As to the bible, i would not pressume it to be better than the rest. But its impact in the world is self evident. For 2000 years it has remain essentially the same. It's teaching unwavering like "though shall not steal"(binay i am looking at you!). Its has stood the test of time and criticism. And the events, cities, personalities have been corroborated in other manuscripts.

[leomarley]

no sarcasm intended when i referred to wiki
no contentions or objections. i definitely agree that the age of the sun is 4.56 billion years.

so how do we determine the age using einstein's theory of relativity?
pardon me for asking this. i'm just curious to know. google won't cooperate with me , hehe.
 

pardon din medyo na-excite ako. what i meant was you can use relativity to know how old the light of a star that you're looking at is. distance of a star can be determined using triangulation. by knowing the distance, once can use the constant speed of light, which was determined using relativity, and determine how many lights years away it is. yung exact age naman is measured by fitting the star with the standard spectral and luminosity classification system. you also need to know the mass to determine the age.

[Nelson de Leon]

well, i'm not really a non-believer, more of agnostic, but i do believe that if there is a "god", it won't resemble any of the ones described by any religion. as i've said before in another thread, this "god" probably lives on a higher plane of existence. simply put, in a higher dimension not bound by our three spatial dimension and time. we can barely understand our 4-dimensional universe what more a being not bound by it? i doubt even that this being, if it does exist, knows that we exist. for all we know we might be living in a hologram as some physicists suggests.

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/universe-hologram

It is good that you believe that there is a God.

But I also believe that God knows that we exist. Being a powerful God who created everything must know that we exist because we are His creation. His craftmanship. Because he is all powerful. That God is not limited by human knowledge or power.

So if there is a god, as you have said, how would you describe Him?

well, i was responding to your inference that we should just believe in the Bible. i'm responding to the position that we should not question, not be skeptical, not think critically, and just accept what was written on this ancient book. all those that i have mentioned are all "holy" scriptures. what makes the Bible better than any of them?

Matindi ang tanong mo! Buti sana if you ask what makes the God of christians better than any of them. Hehe! Pero if you would ask what makes the God of the bible better than any of them, madaming kasagutan diyan. 

[tony]

Man created God to have an entity to give thanks and praises to...
unfortunately they use the same to justify and perpetrate man's inhumanity to man...

[leomarley]

It is good that you believe that there is a God.

But I also believe that God knows that we exist. Being a powerful God who created everything must know that we exist because we are His creation. His craftmanship. Because he is all powerful. That God is not limited by human knowledge or power.

So if there is a god, as you have said, how would you describe Him?

I can't. How can you describe something or someone you haven't even seen yet nor felt the presence. Like I said how can you understand an extra dimensional being when I'm not even sure he existed and when we barely understand our own universe.

Matindi ang tanong mo! Buti sana if you ask what makes the God of christians better than any of them. Hehe! Pero if you would ask what makes the God of the bible better than any of them, madaming kasagutan diyan. 

Same thing. Whatever you say with your God, those religions could say the same thing with their own God/s.

[docelmo]

Man created God to have an entity to give thanks and praises to...
unfortunately they use the same to justify and perpetrate man's inhumanity to man...

Sir, the question is WHY the need for man to create God? Well atheist at least don't believe He exist in the first place, but for everyone else why the need for an entity to praise or to justify violence? Why can't we just be like the animals who don't have this thought process? What makes us different from the animals?

Regardless of whether God is a superior entity who created man or man imagined a superior entity after he "evolved" , we are still faced with an inescapable "presence" of God in our lives. If not as a true living entity or at least an idea. Even the ancient people deified the celestial bodies, wind, earth as personification of God or gods, why? What is the purpose?

The computer for example has hardware and software that we can use for word processing and other productivity skftware, however if there is no internet why is there a need for a browser? If there is no web in the first place, then there is no need for a web browser.....no pinoydvd!

I think the more plausible reality is that the force that made all things may have always been around. What man did was  perceive him by what we have our mind, our imagination.

[bumblebee]

Sir, the question is WHY the need for man to create God?

To explain the things he can't understand.
To find solace.
To rule.

On top of my head.

[leomarley]

I agree with sir bumblebee's post. ever wonder why most, if not all, religions or existence of god/s started in ancient times? It's because of humankind's lack of understanding of the things that are happening around him at that time. Also, it served as a great tool to conquer and rule. Once you've conquered civilizations, it's easy to spread your religion towards the people you've subjugated. We do have a saying that "History is written by the victors". History, in this context, is religion.

[docelmo]

To explain the things he can't understand.
To find solace.
To rule.

On top of my head.

Sir, it still doesn't answer the fundamental question why?

if Man created God, man is also God!
Then this presupposes that man is superior to God then:

why are there still things man can't explain? Dapat wala na! No need for research, tests, expirements alam na niya lahat.

Next why the need for solace? Man would not need solace since he can't feel disappoinment, sorrow or pain.

Why need god to rule.  man can make his own rules. It's ok to kill, steal, etc.

[docelmo]

I agree with sir bumblebee's post. ever wonder why most, if not all, religions or existence of god/s started in ancient times? It's because of humankind's lack of understanding of the things that are happening around him at that time. Also, it served as a great tool to conquer and rule. Once you've conquered civilizations, it's easy to spread your religion towards the people you've subjugated. We do have a saying that "History is written by the victors". History, in this context, is religion.

Sir, i take it you mean that now man has a FULL understanding of the things that are happening around him? And has come to the conclusion that everything came by sheer chance w/ no intelligence whatsoever behind all these things? Then why is there continious research, expiriments, tests by scientists?

[tony]

Sir, i take it you mean that now man has a FULL understanding of the things that are happening around him? And has come to the conclusion that everything came by sheer chance w/ no intelligence whatsoever behind all these things? Then why is there continious research, expiriments, tests by scientists?

man is constantly looking for perfect....

Sir, the question is WHY the need for man to create God?

no one knows the answer, it just happened....