Topic: Iglesia Ni Cristo - 100years of God's blessings

[toys4geeks]

I think one of the complaints is like what Duterte said:

Dapat sa piskalya muna.

Tama naman si Duterte.

Siguro kasi high profile which catches an aspirant to pick it up since its in her avenue anyways kung may own agenda man eh, hmm, "doing my job".

until we know anong puno't dulo ng sigalot na yan, eh we speculate.

[pTrader]

hindi ba mas pabor sa INC kung deretso agad sa DOJ para maaksyunan agad at mabilis matapos ang kaso.

halos lahat ng may kaso ang gusto nila mapabilis ang proseso, INC lang ata ang may ayaw nito.

this was the reason given by atty topacio, bakit daw inuna ang INC instead of the saf44 cases etc. so parang ang balak ng INC is tumagal ang kaso sa korte at makalimutan na lang.

regarding SAF 44, eh bakit inde nagpunta ang INC sa EDSA noong kasagsagan ng SAF 44 issue?
eh bakit inde sila pumunta sa EDSA upang ipanawagan yung mga kaso na inde naaksyonan ni De Lima?

eh, nangyari ito bago nagpakaSamson si Samson...

IJuander?

[toys4geeks]

maybe same reason that you are yelling at me now. You are mad at what's happening, and venting it on me although I did not join the rally.


seriously, i don't know. That's why i did not join the rally.

Kaya nga sa akin lang 'wag lahatin, pero ang isang malinaw ata kung meron mang kailangan sumagot ay ang sanggunian. Di ko alam kung sasagutin nila para maintindihan natin, o sasagutin nila batay sa kanilang basehan na di tiyak if will appeal to us outside of INC.


Malinaw lang at this time na hindi lahat ay sumama sa panawagan, may ilan na hindi kumilos dahil sa kanilang pagiisip hindi pa panahon o di nararapat.

Lahat naman ng tao may pangangailangan ng pananampalataya, san man yan manggaling. May leadership sila na siyang sasagot sa kanilang miyembro sa kanilang panahon. Djan nanggagaling ang conviction at character ng tao. Eh swerte nga tayo dito me mga members na napagtatanungan ano ba ang nasa kaisipan sa likod ng mga bagay bagay na hindi natin naiintindihan.

Marahil galit ang marami na naapektohan directly, yung iba galit dahil sa logic pero di naman sila naapektuhan directly.  kaya nga salamat sa haba ng pasensya nyo ricky at iba pang INC at hindi ala facebook na pigil sa gigil ang sagutan natin dito.  Di ko ata kaya yang ginagawa nyo if it was the other way around.
 
sa usaping pag aalay, sa RC nga(yes I am RC) madalas may second collection pa, sa ibang kadahilanan ng parokya o simbahan. mukhang kulang ang bigay namin kaya't kinailangan ulit.

[GIJoe]

I think one of the complaints is like what Duterte said:

Dapat sa piskalya muna.

Eh problema sa DOJ  dumiretso yung kasapi ng INC dahil siguro naiisip niya na nanganganib na ang buhay niya. Ikaw bro san ka pupunta pag alam mo na nanganganib na buhay mo sa piskalya pa ba? 

[tonedeaf]

I think one of the complaints is like what Duterte said:

Dapat sa piskalya muna.

Just to clarify, the case filed against the Sanggunian is being heard by a fiscal. Not by De Lima,  as Secretary of justice. The only difference is that it is being heard by a fiscal stationed at the DOJ in Padre Faure and not a fiscal whose jurisdiction is over a particular territory (e.g. QC, Makati)

As a rule, it is preferred that a case is filed before a fiscal with a particular territory (where the crime was allegedly committed). I think the complainants chose to file with the DOJ because of the perceived influence which the INC may have over a fiscal stationed in QC. If you want to file with the DOJ, you must be able to cite some peculiar circumstance such as this.

This means that after the fiscal decides the case, it is still appealable to the Secretary of Justice.

HTH.

[tony]

Actually, INC as a whole was quiet and peaceful since my time being and coexisted with different religious groups in the country. Not until somebody stepped on a hornet's nest recently and all hell broke loose. There will always be a bad seed somewhere especially if the group is big enough just like anywhere.

Move on, and learn from our mistakes. That's what mature people do.

i agree with this...after all they are not saints...

[tony]

i wish it was as simple as that.

Madali siguro kung para sa iba like you na ibang grupo ang kinabibilangan. For INC, it is very different. Words cannot explain the faith of the members. It's easy for people from the outside looking in to comment and that is why I respect their opinions. For somebody who embraced the faith, mahirap gawin yan.

for many members, the Church remains intact in terms of doctrines. Ang kaguluhan ay hindi doctrinal per se. kaya maraming ayaw at hindi aalis ay dahil walang pupuntahang ibang grupo espousing the same set of beliefs.

For many, it's like waiting out for the storm to pass and the Sanggunian members (if guilty) to be hang (not literally).

many members are waiting for whatever outcomes these recent issues have brought.

I think it has something to do with the prohibition in the Bible of eating blood.

yes, and like pork from the pig, while the pig has hoofed feet, it does not chew cuds, kaya bawal....

[Quitacet]

Eh problema sa DOJ  dumiretso yung kasapi ng INC dahil siguro naiisip niya na nanganganib na ang buhay niya. Ikaw bro san ka pupunta pag alam mo na nanganganib na buhay mo sa piskalya pa ba? 

Maaring tama ka.

Sinagot ko lang naman yung tanong/post mo sa itaas. I said isa yun sa reason ng INC. Pero kung sa tingin ng INC sanggunian mali yung sa DOJ secreatry diniretso, eh wla na tayong magagawa dun.

Meron pala, we can criticize the move (rally) and that's what people are doing now.

Okay lang naman yun. mga tao din sila.

Di ba sabi ko nga I am for the "RULE OF LAW"

in my personal view it is really a court matter already.

hayaan na lang gumulong ang proseso ng hustisya.

Walang problema sa akin kahit makulong ang walong ministro na sinampahan ng kaso kung talagang nagkasala sila nang ipinararatang sa kanila. Better yun for the INC

[tony]

wala pa sa court, patungong fiscal pa lang,pwede pang gapangin...

[Quitacet]

hindi ba mas pabor sa INC kung deretso agad sa DOJ para maaksyunan agad at mabilis matapos ang kaso.

halos lahat ng may kaso ang gusto nila mapabilis ang proseso, INC lang ata ang may ayaw nito.

this was the reason given by atty topacio, bakit daw inuna ang INC instead of the saf44 cases etc. so parang ang balak ng INC is tumagal ang kaso sa korte at makalimutan na lang.

personally, yes kung ako mas mabilis mas mainam. pero hindi ako yung sanggunian kaya hindi ko masasagot for them. I can only give my perspective.

actually may nangyari nang pagpupulong ang INC together with other groups as early as february including grupo ng COPA with saycon, pati yata si Eid Cabalu spokesperson dati ng MILF, at i heard with other groups pa para idulog sa government ang ibat ibang issues including SAF44 kasi dalawa sa napatay ay mga kaanib ng INC. i think doon nakapaloob ang hiling ng inc about saf44.

nabnggit na lang ulit sa rally kasi nga nagagalit na

[CoolTOYZPH]

I thought the issue for the Vigil was to call for "Separation of Church and State"?
Isn't the issue of the SAF 44 as stated below an issue of the State and not the Church?

actually may nangyari nang pagpupulong ang INC together with other groups as early as february including grupo ng COPA with saycon, pati yata si Eid Cabalu spokesperson dati ng MILF, at i heard with other groups pa para idulog sa government ang ibat ibang issues including SAF44 kasi dalawa sa napatay ay mga kaanib ng INC. i think doon nakapaloob ang hiling ng inc about saf44.

[Quitacet]

I thought the issue for the Vigil was to call for "Separation of Church and State"?
Isn't the issue of the SAF 44 as stated below an issue of the State and not the Church?

Yes nabanggit ko lang because it was asked/part of frequenzy's post.

[pTrader]

Senator Aquilino “Koko” Pimentel III defended Justice Secretary Leila De Lima against accusations by Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) leaders she is meddling in the internal affairs of the religious sect.
 
Pimentel, Senate committee on justice and human rights chair, said De Lima, who ordered an investigation into the criminal case filed by one of its expelled members, have the right to take up the case as part of her duty as head of the agency.
 
While the group has the right to exercise their freedom of assembly, the senator said he disagrees with the INC’s call for the DOJ not to prioritize the case filed former INC minister Isaias Samson, Jr. against higher INC executives last week.
 

 
“I disagree, because instead of asking for that, we should be calling on the DOJ to expedite the case; to tell them not to do so, is not acceptable,” Pimentel said in an interview over Radio DZBB.
 
“What if the DOJ acts on the case and immediately and finds it nothing then it might just dismiss the complaint. That’s the way it is. Anyone has a right to file a criminal complaint especially if it is important to him, especially if he feels his rights were violated,” Pimentel pointed out.
 

The senator said Samson’s case is reminiscent of the case of Benhur Luy, the principal witness in the alleged P10-billion pork barrel fund scam of businesswoman Janet Lim-Napoles.
 
Luy, on the same grounds, filed illegal detention against Napoles, his former employer, which the DOJ acted on.
 
“The nature of the complaint was serious illegal detention, so that DOJ has an obligation to look into it because it’s a serious public crime, people of the Philippines versus the suspect. If the complaint was about financial dishonesty then maybe it might an internal matter. But you wouldn’t know unless you conduct an investigation. So before they know what is the nature of the problem they have to investigate it first,” said the senator.
 

“I don’t think the complaint is against any church or any religion;  it is against a person. So part of the job of DOJ is to accept the complaint and conduct a preliminary investigation and check the basic facts,” Pimentel said.
 
“Now if they find it involves the Revised Penal Code or any law, public crime, they will investigate it further formally,” he pointed out.

source: http://www.mb.com.ph/pimentel-defends-de-lima-vs-inc-accusations/

Above is a more balance approach.

[Quitacet]

source: http://www.mb.com.ph/pimentel-defends-de-lima-vs-inc-accusations/

Above is a more balance approach.

I agree.

I heard Pimentel in an interview in DZBB and I agree to his stand and observations.

[bartender]

yes, and like pork from the pig, while the pig has hoofed feet, it does not chew cuds, kaya bawal....

From what I am aware of, the Kosher diet is one that follows the Bible restrictions, that includes the prohibition of pork, fish with no scales and crustaceans.

[toys4geeks]

and another article out there:(reader's discretion advised )

THE IGLESIA NI CRISTO DEBACLE: A Four-Point Critical Analysis

[tony]

wow...the article reinforces my earlier posts about the medieval state of the INC as what happened to the RC back in the days....
in the Philippine setting, the RC lost all political power when the Americans colonized us...
 

Firstly, the Iglesia ni Cristo copies the Catholic Church in the medieval period. Back in what many call the Dark Ages, social life is divided between the secular and the religious, and the priest or bishop was deemed as powerful as a prince or a king. Popes crowned kings and the Church has a say in secular affairs. The secular, on the other hand, has limited hand over the Church. There is no separation of Church and State (which is a modern invention), and the integrity of the society is maintained by this balance. (If you don’t get the picture, I advise you to watch Game of Thrones and see how the show gives reference to the power of the Church albeit indirectly.)

[pTrader]

wow...the article reinforces my earlier posts about the medieval state of the INC as what happened to the RC back in the days....
in the Philippine setting, the RC lost all political power when the Americans colonized us...

There is the roaring of the lion and the growling of the young lion, but the teeth of the young lions are broken.

[tony]

i think the key here is "conscience" no matter what religion you belong, you still have it,
it is just a matter of what are you going to do about it...that makes the difference....

the article i think speaks to all religions and not just the INC...

[jjlovemusic]

and another article out there:

http://juan.com.ph/cover-story/the-iglesia-ni-cristo-debacle-a-four-point-critical-analysis/

Since he was comparing to the RC and Protestants, compared to ministro's, most priests and bishops are multi-degree holder - Psych, history, even chem eng, etc., aside from the regular courses of the church.
I recall the bishop who is head of the cathedral and catholic school near our home, he holds about 8 degrees already up to PHD, various books and researches written, and he's now 55y/o. Though he said that he wants to be more of an "adviser" to an institution than be the head of it. For me, I believe that this is an example of a competent leader... Now, how do higher ministro's gain their ranks again?

[rochie]

Now, how do higher ministro's gain their ranks again?

some of them also holds bachelor/Master/PHD. I remember a friend of mine who is one of my instructor when i was in college(AMACC) holds a bachelor's degree then took up master's degree in computer science before enrolling to become a minister. a cousin of mine is a graduate of engineering before he went to become a minister too.the ministers who headed our construction/legal and other departments also holds degree in various professional field(accountant/engineer/lawyer etc etc).

[pTrader]

INC 'super bullying' gov't - Saguisag

Metro Manila (CNN Philippines) — Former senator and human rights stalwart Rene Saguisag likens the recent protest action of Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) to what China has been doing in the West Philippine Sea: "super bullying" the Philippine government.

"I see INC super bullying us... What they're doing is they're bullying the government, bullying the DOJ (Department of Justice), bullying Leila (de Lima)," Saguisag said on Monday (August 31).

He said that in the same way that the government cannot interfere with INC's internal affairs, the religious group also cannot dictate upon the government — in reference to the constitutional provision of the separation of the church and state.

Saguisag explained that if a criminal complaint is lodged against any group — religious or nonreligious — it would be the duty of the government to act upon it.

"No one is above the law," he called out to INC members.

source: http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2015/08/31/INC-super-bullying-govt---Saguisag.html


DOJ not violating INC’s religious freedom - sociologist

[pTrader]

CHR on the issue:

The INC maintained the DOJ has no right to meddle in the church’s internal affairs as there is a doctrine on the separation of church and state, as guaranteed under the Constitution.
 
But according to Commission on Human Rights (CHR) chairperson Chito Gascon, the doctrine of separation of church and state does not apply in this instance.
 
“This is a matter involving the proper exercise of powers by the justice department involving an investigation of a case that may involve violation of law that exempts no one,” Gascon said.
 
“The doctrine of separation involves the following: 1. State does not favor any particular religion (non-establishment clause) and 2. Every person is able to believe and practice faith (free exercise clause),” he explained.
 
Gascon maintained that no individual or organization is exempt from investigations on alleged violations of the laws of the land.

source: http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/08/31/1494182/iglesia-sets-nationwide-protests-vs-doj-probe

[praktikal]

dahil sa nega reaction ng netizen sa mga epal na TraPo, sa palagay ko ang iba e super ingat na. yari ngayon ang gobyerno kung paano mag react sakaling mag rally din ang ibang grupo. ang tanong na lang kung kaya nilang makaipon ng ganun karami at ka organize. meron ng pagkukumparahan at mahahalata na may kinikilingan at/o kinakatakutan.

[jjlovemusic]

some of them also holds bachelor/Master/PHD. I remember a friend of mine who is one of my instructor when i was in college(AMACC) holds a bachelor's degree then took up master's degree in computer science before enrolling to become a minister. a cousin of mine is a graduate of engineering before he went to become a minister too.the ministers who headed our construction/legal and other departments also holds degree in various professional field(accountant/engineer/lawyer etc etc).

That's great. How about anything related to the study of man, behavior, religion, history, exorcism, demons, etc.,.?
How about the higher ups? Just the higher ups of ministro's, not the other departments boss, naturally, they are needed in that field kung sa legal or infra or finance, etc.,.
Does your cousin and friend believe it is righteous rallying in EDSA? Do you?
Is a religious leader excused from the law?
I'm not against the religion boss ha. Sa corrupt and manipulative leaders lang, even sa Gov't and RC And anywhere else.

[devlin_waugh]

[tony]

That's great. How about anything related to the study of man, behavior, religion, history, exorcism, demons, etc.,.?
How about the higher ups? Just the higher ups of ministro's, not the other departments boss, naturally, they are needed in that field kung sa legal or infra or finance, etc.,.
Does your cousin and friend believe it is righteous rallying in EDSA? Do you?
Is a religious leader excused from the law?
I'm not against the religion boss ha. Sa corrupt and manipulative leaders lang, even sa Gov't and RC And anywhere else.

while mankind itself is about 2.4million years old, the bible is what? over 2000 years old?....surely human history is abundantly rich with spirituality......those whose spirituality is solely based on the bible can be missing a lot.....kaya maraming nakabasa ng bible gusto magtayo ng sarili nilang iglesia....

[jjlovemusic]

while mankind itself is about 2.4million years old, the bible is what? over 2000 years old?....surely human history is abundantly rich with spirituality......those whose spirituality is solely based on the bible can be missing a lot.....kaya maraming nakabasa ng bible gusto magtayo ng sarili nilang iglesia....

The Bible's foundation is built on history way back beyond that. Wala pang Christianity nuon. Afaik, Muslim/Islam is the oldest enduring religion who believes in God.

The Bible is the most powerful book of all time and can be interpreted by one, in so many ways.

[bumblebee]

Afaik, Muslim/Islam is the oldest enduring religion who believes in God.

Islam is the youngest.

[Nelson de Leon]

Islam is the youngest.

And has the same roots with Abraham.