Author Topic: Newbie & Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on Receivers/Amplifiers  (Read 192435 times)

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Offline karipas

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Wow mag sirs, thanks! yung Pioneer SA8800II ko na dual mono pwede ko naman gawin 220V pala.  :)

Hi Sir aHobbit/Sir Tony,

Nalito lang ako. Is there always a 10% voltage buffer in transformers, the NEC and my Pioneer are 100V, if connected in series with the other 100V xformer will have an operating voltage of 220V? Thanks.
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Offline aHobbit

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Wow mag sirs, thanks! yung Pioneer SA8800II ko na dual mono pwede ko naman gawin 220V pala.  :)

Hi Sir aHobbit/Sir Tony,

Nalito lang ako. Is there always a 10% voltage buffer in transformers, the NEC and my Pioneer are 100V, if connected in series with the other 100V xformer will have an operating voltage of 220V? Thanks.

its not a big deal for 100V transformer to use 110V. Though the resulting DC bias of your amp will also jump 10% if it is not regulated.

Ideally, in series 100V should use 200V. Plugging it to 220V is a 10% overvoltage, but not reallay a big deal in transformer.

Knowing that our average home do not really get 220V in the outlet (due to line losses), it is typically in the range of 200-210 (a 5% deviation from 200V).

However, please be cautious if you measure your outlet voltage to be in the 240V, which typically happens if you are nearby a tap transformer (where voltage is always higher). 240V is a 20% deviation - though can still be used, awareness of its possible effect should be considered.

I have a sansui AU-607DX in a location near a meralco tap transformer - voltage is high, so I have to use a transformer with 100V output. a 240V input to it, will make a 110V output, quite acceptable for the 100V sansui. It is still alive and kicking.
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Offline karipas

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Hi Sir aHobbit,

Thanks for the info. me natutunan ako.
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Offline ATJr.

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to be more technical about it, we are trying to avoid situations whereby the voltage acrros you main filter caps might be exceeded...that will surely result in a big bang..... :o

for example, a 100 volt appliance with 50 volt caps and a normal voltage of say 35volts, when plugged in to 220 will have more than 70 volts sitting on a 50volt cap, now with this scenario, you need not count to 10 before the big bang..... ;D
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Offline rascal101

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The increasing line voltage should not increase DC bias of the amp. The regulators should still maintain supply voltages within their regulation limits. However, since the input to these regulators have increased so will the dissipation. Thus input power dissipation becomes higher which causes the heatsinks to be hotter.


Offline ATJr.

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Quote
The increasing line voltage should not increase DC bias of the amp.

yes, however, quiscient dissipition does... ;D

and i forgot to mention, the transformer likewise saturates with double the voltage, thus the transformer is forced to dissipate many times over, just like a short circuit...
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Offline aHobbit

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Thus, sans all the above, 110V to 100V is a 10% deviation. If you doubt, check your input cap rating. Typically, they are provided with caps higher than what they are used for, not necessarily below 10% of the requirement.

The 100V is not an absolute rating - typically, even electronic components have margins beyond their ratings.

For safety purposes, they are rated somewhat lower.

For practical purposes, a slight deviation is not really an issue.

Even the small deviation in the heat will be typically within its operational limits, provided you always observe ventilation requirement for a gear such as amplifiers. You dont need overvoltage just to trigger an anomaly caused by heat.

Above should be a typical expectations.
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Offline drewdee

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Solid State History

So what's to stop someone designing a solid state amplifier to work like a valve amplifier?   Unfortunately, early attempts are responsible for the appalling reputation solid state amplifiers have in this application.   The main objection to these early amplifiers was their harshness and limited dynamic range, caused almost entirely by the super clean sound and wide frequency response up to their maximum output, after which the onset of clipping occurred quite abruptly and harshly.

When the amplifier is played near its maximum output, the attack of notes (immediately after the note is struck) pushes the amplifier briefly into the clipping region, producing a "squashy, spitting" sound at the start of each note.   If the amplifier is overdriven well into the clipping region, the type of overdrive was typically very dirty and un-musical.

There was much debate at the time that valve amplifiers produced overdrive with primarily even harmonics (musically related to the fundamental and therefore desirable), while transistor amplifiers produced odd harmonics which do not have a musical relationship to the note(s) played.   I don't believe this is entirely valid, because a type of distortion circuit has become popular with heavy metal players in the 80?s (and a variation for grunge players in the 1990's) which replicates the harsh clipping of solid state amplifiers.   This type of distortion has been made palatable by following it with some very carefully tuned equalisation to minimise the harsh components, without sacrificing too much high frequency response.

Nevertheless, valve designs produce predominantly low order harmonic overdrive (which is musically related), while solid state designs generally produce a full range of harmonic distortion, including the objectionable high order harmonics.   This is due to a number of factors, including the transformer output of valve designs, and the large amounts of negative (electronic) feedback required in solid state designs.   Valve designs need very little negative feedback, and some good sounding amps don't use any at all!

Another popular theory of the time was that the difference was due to valves being voltage driven, while transistors are current driven.   Hopes were therefore high with the introduction of power FETs, because these are also voltage driven.   Some companies produced power FET amplifiers with the usual claims of their likeness to valve sound, and again, failed.   These early designs still exhibited the transistor cleanliness with abrupt and harsh clipping.

To my ear, the main undesirable elements of a solid state power amplifier are that there is no high frequency roll-off to remove the harshness of the brutal clipping produced, but more importantly, the onset of distortion is just too sudden.   Distortion itself is the addition of higher harmonics not present in the original signal, and both the smoother onset of distortion, and their design means they add different harmonics.   Valve amplifiers use an output transformer which results in the lower order harmonics being predominant in the early phases of overdrive, giving the characteristic smooth overdrive.   More recent solid state power amplifiers have begun to address these design goals with some success by using volume limiting, and flexible preamplifier overdrive circuits.   Marshall Valvestate and Peavey Transtube offer some very valve-like dynamics with their solid state power amplifier designs.

One option is to use a very powerful solid state amplifier and speaker system, and produce the required sounds entirely within the preamplifier stages.   Indeed, this approach is favoured by some heavy metal players, and for related styles.

Typical Designs
Most designs now (valve and solid state) allow the preamplifier to be overdriven, with a master volume level to control the level produced through the power amplifier.   This allows the player to use a variety of clean to overdriven sounds at various volume levels.   Generally, the player will establish a fixed master volume level to suit the performing situation, and footswitch additional preamplifier overdrive as required.   It is common to provide gain in the hundreds, just within the pre-amp stages!

Offline rustyns

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Gurus,

This is a cheap china made integrated amp. Before it was modded, the 4 encircled parts were not there. This is the only change done. Before these 4 output transistors (2sc5200/2sa1943) were added, this had the typical "raon" sound. After adding, the sound improved considerably. Why?

TIA
« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2007 at 10:35 PM by rustyns »

Offline audiojunkie

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Gurus,

This is a cheap china made integrated amp. Before it was modded, the 4 encircled parts were not there. This is the only change done. Before these 4 output transistors (2sc5200/2sa1943) were added, this had the typical "raon" sound. After adding, the sound improved considerably. Why?

TIA

Ofcourse!... with additional 2pairs of OP amps will double the power. only drawback of this is the increase of the unit.... ::)
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Offline rustyns

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Ofcourse!... with additional 2pairs of OP amps will double the power. only drawback of this is the increase of the unit.... ::)

 ??? ano ulit yung drawback?

Offline audiojunkie

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??? ano ulit yung drawback?

it's similar to " disadvantages..."  ;D

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Offline squatt3r

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increase of the unit what?

Offline ATJr.

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Gurus,

This is a cheap china made integrated amp. Before it was modded, the 4 encircled parts were not there. This is the only change done. Before these 4 output transistors (2sc5200/2sa1943) were added, this had the typical "raon" sound. After adding, the sound improved considerably. Why?

TIA

be happy with the improvement, what you achieved there was that you doubled the SOA of the output stage......contrary to popular belief, power remains the same even with the addition of output transistors...... ??? twice the SOA means that even if your speaker's nominal impedance droops from 8 ohms, your amp can survive.

now why same power? ??? it's because you still have the same power transformer and the same rail voltages, so in effect, as far as power goes, nothing has changed, you just made your amp more robust with additional transistors, and that is good, the fact that you heard improvemnts is bonus!!!! ;D
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Offline rustyns

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Sir Tony,

Salamat sa explanation.  :)

Offline audiojunkie

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increase of the unit what?

erratum:
my apology, (mistyped) I mean will increase the heat of the unit.
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Offline JojoD818

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be happy with the improvement, what you achieved there was that you doubled the SOA of the output stage......contrary to popular belief, power remains the same even with the addition of output transistors...... ??? twice the SOA means that even if your speaker's nominal impedance droops from 8 ohms, your amp can survive.

now why same power? ??? it's because you still have the same power transformer and the same rail voltages, so in effect, as far as power goes, nothing has changed, you just made your amp more robust with additional transistors, and that is good, the fact that you heard improvemnts is bonus!!!! ;D

yan si Tony... simpleng sagot pero maraming sustansya. 


Offline rustyns

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be happy with the improvement, what you achieved there was that you doubled the SOA of the output stage......contrary to popular belief, power remains the same even with the addition of output transistors...... ??? twice the SOA means that even if your speaker's nominal impedance droops from 8 ohms, your amp can survive.

now why same power? ??? it's because you still have the same power transformer and the same rail voltages, so in effect, as far as power goes, nothing has changed, you just made your amp more robust with additional transistors, and that is good, the fact that you heard improvemnts is bonus!!!! ;D

Sir Tony,

Inisip ko ulit yung explanation mo - you are saying na wala dapat epekto sa sound yung modification. hmmm... di ko tuloy alam ngayon kung bakit na-perceive ko na better in all aspects yung sound.

Ginagamit ko ito with a kef 104ab. Nasubukan ko na itong kef with alot of amps and receivers-dito lang nagmatch. Tsamba lang siguro. Anyway, tama ka - just be happy with the perceived improvement  ;D 8)
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2007 at 12:08 AM by rustyns »

Offline ATJr.

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Sir Tony,

Inisip ko ulit yung explanation mo - you are saying na wala dapat epekto sa sound yung modification. hmmm... di ko tuloy alam ngayon kung bakit na-perceive ko na better in all aspects yung sound.

Ginagamit ko ito with a kef 104ab. Nasubukan ko na itong kef with alot of amps and receivers-dito lang nagmatch. Tsamba lang siguro. Anyway, tama ka - just be happy with the perceived improvement  ;D 8)

hindi tsamba yan, doubling the output transistors in effect lowered the output impedance of your amp, and therefore increased damping which could actually be responsible for the perceived improvement. ;D

it is not uncommon for manufacturers to come up with just one board for different models, yours could have a higher model, they just had to add in more transistors and maybe change the power transformer and caps, and there you have it.....this is consistent with engineering economy.... ;D

let us say your amp is rated at 100watts per channel, so at full power, with an efficiency of 60%, 40watts is dissipated by 4 transistors, so each one dissipates 10 watts, now adding another 4 more transistors, 5watts then is dissipated by each transistor....so in effect, while heat generated remains   the same, the output transistors actually operate at lower junction temperature.... are you with me? ;D

there are other considerations....but remember power delivered is always dictated by the speakers and the volume level you listen with... ;D

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Offline edwin

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hindi tsamba yan, doubling the output transistors in effect lowered the output impedance of your amp, and therefore increased damping which could actually be responsible for the perceived improvement. ;D

it is not uncommon for manufacturers to come up with just one board for different models, yours could have a higher model, they just had to add in more transistors and maybe change the power transformer and caps, and there you have it.....this is consistent with engineering economy.... ;D

let us say your amp is rated at 100watts per channel, so at full power, with an efficiency of 60%, 40watts is dissipated by 4 transistors, so each one dissipates 10 watts, now adding another 4 more transistors, 5watts then is dissipated by each transistor....so in effect, while heat generated remains   the same, the output transistors actually operate at lower junction temperature.... are you with me? ;D

there are other considerations....but remember power delivered is always dictated by the speakers and the volume level you listen with... ;D



Very well said. Kaya nga tignan mo ang mga really high end amplifier at malulula ka sa dami ng transistor na ginagamit. An example is the Pass Labs X-series of amplifiers. One model is using 24 transistors per channel.
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Offline edwin

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Gurus,

This is a cheap china made integrated amp. Before it was modded, the 4 encircled parts were not there. This is the only change done. Before these 4 output transistors (2sc5200/2sa1943) were added, this had the typical "raon" sound. After adding, the sound improved considerably. Why?

TIA

Another good tweak for an amplifier is changing the power supply rail diodes to ultrafast-soft recovery type. The best I tried so far was the HFA series from International Rectifiers. An HFA08TB60, is rated at 8amps, 600v, which is good enough for small amps. These can be bought at Farnell or RS Components. The best tweak for an amp.

Another is to get the best powercaps you could with low ESR rating and bypass with polypropylene types of caps. If space is not a problem, double the uf rating.

And at the output stage, which is normally a zobel network for most amps, resistor and capacitor combination, i normally used a 5Watt Kiwame or Riken and Auricap.
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Offline ATJr.

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Sir Tony,

Salamat sa explanation.  :)

I stopped using "square nuts" about 20 years ago when i discovered stores selling good screws along T. Mapua st. in avenida. "Tu-SOY"..so if i were you, i'd get this 3mm philipps head screws, washers and nuts, stainlless even, if those are available....it will make your amp look more like high-end..... ;D
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Offline dana

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well explained as always by idol  Sir Tony....as the title aptly puts it, it really meant ,Everything you wanted to ask our own Tonyt regarding Audio....and anything under the sun ;D...

sorry po, OT...just can't help it... :)
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Offline rustyns

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Thanks ulit sa comments and suggestions. Try ko yan one of these days :)
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2007 at 06:43 PM by rustyns »

Offline allan1836

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hindi tsamba yan, doubling the output transistors in effect lowered the output impedance of your amp, and therefore increased damping which could actually be responsible for the perceived improvement. ;D

it is not uncommon for manufacturers to come up with just one board for different models, yours could have a higher model, they just had to add in more transistors and maybe change the power transformer and caps, and there you have it.....this is consistent with engineering economy.... ;D

let us say your amp is rated at 100watts per channel, so at full power, with an efficiency of 60%, 40watts is dissipated by 4 transistors, so each one dissipates 10 watts, now adding another 4 more transistors, 5watts then is dissipated by each transistor....so in effect, while heat generated remains   the same, the output transistors actually operate at lower junction temperature.... are you with me? ;D

there are other considerations....but remember power delivered is always dictated by the speakers and the volume level you listen with... ;D



Sir, ask ko lang, why some audio experts prefer just 2 pairs of output transistors in a ss amp? They say the sound is sweeter and more musical, though, at the expense of power. I also experienced this on some mid level integrated amps. It seems that lower powered amps ( around 20w/ch to 50w/ch) are more musical than 100w up amps.

Is there any electrical basis for this? Thanks.  :)

Offline ATJr.

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Sir, ask ko lang, why some audio experts prefer just 2 pairs of output transistors in a ss amp? They say the sound is sweeter and more musical, though, at the expense of power. I also experienced this on some mid level integrated amps. It seems that lower powered amps ( around 20w/ch to 50w/ch) are more musical than 100w up amps.

Is there any electrical basis for this? Thanks.  :)

it is not just a matter of preffrence, it is all about "design", amp designs are based on certein goals, like target market, cost, parts availability, etc. etc, always with the bottom line in mind, how much will the company profit in making such amps....

it is very hard to come up with generalizations, unless you know the circuit topology for which the two pairs are used in, and the speakers they intend to drive, it is difficult to claim that they sounded sweeter, after all, subjective claims can not be replicated, and may be valid only for the one who experienced such.....but yes, i do remember my first clone of the pioneer sx-770 power amp, it used two pairs in a qausi-complimentary configuration, at the time, they sounded sweet to my ears....well, until i built my first leach super amp...it had 4 pairs per channel. ;D

one reason why BOSE is sucssefull is that they optimize their amps with their own speakers...try using BOSE speakers on other amps.....

"one size fits all", does not apply here.... ;D
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2007 at 10:10 AM by TonyT »
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Offline Lancito

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Newbie question on recievers
« Reply #596 on: Jan 10, 2008 at 01:49 PM »
1.  What is the difference between an amp and a pre amp?  I hear the two a lot. ???

2.  What are the pre outs of receivers for?

3.  What is the difference between intergrated, power, and ss amps?

« Last Edit: Jan 17, 2008 at 10:39 AM by Lancito »

Offline RU9

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Re: Stupid Questions
« Reply #597 on: Jan 10, 2008 at 04:22 PM »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Stupid Questions
« Reply #598 on: Jan 10, 2008 at 05:11 PM »
Those are not stupid questions.

Offline pchin

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Re: Stupid Questions
« Reply #599 on: Jan 10, 2008 at 05:31 PM »
True. Those are just newbie questions. You can also try to search around the forum, you'll get lots of info from the AV gurus. :)
« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2008 at 05:36 PM by pchin »