Topic: Any Thoughts on the Hagerman Bugle 2 Phono Preamp?

[tetablanco]

This Phono Preamp has been receiving rave reviews since it began as a Kickstarter Project a few years back.  Anyone ever tried this?  Was thinking of getting one for myself.  Warranty is 10 years. Can be pre-configured for both MM and MC carts.

http://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/products/bugle2

[JojoD818]

Made one many many many moons ago... (sorry didn't have a decent camera back then)



Back then battery powered was the fad...

It boasts the passive split RIAA equalization technique which eliminates the eq at the feedback path. I remember it was a decent, all around performer.

Cheers

[tetablanco]

Made one many many many moons ago... (sorry didn't have a decent camera back then)



Back then battery powered was the fad...

It boasts the passive split RIAA equalization technique which eliminates the eq at the feedback path. I remember it was a decent, all around performer.

Cheers

Hi,

The preamp you built then was the original Bugle which was powered by batteries.  Bugle2 is now powered by its own plug-in wall-wart. I'm deciding between the Bugle2 and the Emotiva XPS-1.  According to the reviews I read, the Bugle2 is an overachiever whose sonic performance exceeds that of phono stages costing thousands of dollars.  For the Bugle2, however, you can only choose between MM or MC capability. Once you've chosen, your choice is then hard-wired into the circuit board itself. On the other hands, The XPS-1 affords you cart flexibility on-the-fly.

[JojoD818]

Hi,

The preamp you built then was the original Bugle which was powered by batteries.  Bugle2 is now powered by its own plug-in wall-wart. I'm deciding between the Bugle2 and the Emotiva XPS-1.  According to the reviews I read, the Bugle2 is an overachiever whose sonic performance exceeds that of phono stages costing thousands of dollars.  For the Bugle2, however, you can only choose between MM or MC capability. Once you've chosen, your choice is then hard-wired into the circuit board itself. On the other hands, The XPS-1 affords you cart flexibility on-the-fly.

Apart from the then battery and the now "new" wallwart psu, the Bugle and the Bugle2 is topologically the same. Changing between MM and MC is as easy as changing feedback resistors in the pre-pre stage, but it is indeed a hassle to have to change them resistors.

IMHO, they may play well for MC but I'd stick with MM duties for these, though 60dB is easy for an opamp to achieve, I'd prefer the use of an instrumentation class pre stage like the one used in the Black Cube. Also, changing between MM and MC is as easy as flipping a DIP switch, cart flexibility on-the-fly like you said. You may have to consider the XPS-1 especially if you plan to try different carts.

Just my two cents.

[tetablanco]

Apart from the then battery and the now "new" wallwart psu, the Bugle and the Bugle2 is topologically the same. Changing between MM and MC is as easy as changing feedback resistors in the pre-pre stage, but it is indeed a hassle to have to change them resistors.

IMHO, they may play well for MC but I'd stick with MM duties for these, though 60dB is easy for an opamp to achieve, I'd prefer the use of an instrumentation class pre stage like the one used in the Black Cube. Also, changing between MM and MC is as easy as flipping a DIP switch, cart flexibility on-the-fly like you said. You may have to consider the XPS-1 especially if you plan to try different carts.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for your reply.  Because of the Emotiva's flexibility in handling MM and MC carts (which multiple settings) and its 2014 top-ranking, I was ready to pull the trigger on the XPS-1 (which is a real bargain now at $119 at Emotiva's online store) when I stumbled upon the Bugle2.  In all the online comparisons I've read, the Bugle2 always comes out on top.  Should I need to use an MC cart with it, I can always get an SUT for the standard MM/40dB Bugle2. In your opinion, is there a substantial difference in SQ between the Bugle / Bugle2 and the XPS-1 ?

[tony]

audition it first and see if you like it.....
do not bet your life on reviews, trust your ears only...

any tom, dick or harry can write reviews,
but very few can make amps....

and only you can decide what you like...

[JoeyGS]

IMO, design wise, i would prefer the iFi iPhono over the Bugle2.

The reason is that you will have better sttings to match MC carts. Its veery much cheaper than the black cube which i also like.

[tetablanco]

audition it first and see if you like it.....
do not bet your life on reviews, trust your ears only...

any tom, dick or harry can write reviews,
but very few can make amps....

and only you can decide what you like...

Hi Sir Tony,
To my knowledge, there is no local supplier for the Bugle2 - that's why auditioning might not be an option.  I was about to get the SUTs you suggested but decided to hold off for now as I don't use MCs yet.  I'm having my TT calibrated now and would check after if I still need to get a phono stage aside from the tube preamp I got from you.  Just so I'd have different sound flavors handy, I started scouting around for phono stage options.  Since the new one would be a backup, I'm trying to keep my costs low.
Best,
Teta
 

[JojoD818]

Thanks for your reply.  Because of the Emotiva's flexibility in handling MM and MC carts (which multiple settings) and its 2014 top-ranking, I was ready to pull the trigger on the XPS-1 (which is a real bargain now at $119 at Emotiva's online store) when I stumbled upon the Bugle2.  In all the online comparisons I've read, the Bugle2 always comes out on top. 

The Bugle/2 aims to accurately implement the RIAA eq that's why it always comes near the top of the list in reviews.

Should I need to use an MC cart with it, I can always get an SUT for the standard MM/40dB Bugle2.

That's the way to go. At least that's what I will also do if I were in your shoes.

In your opinion, is there a substantial difference in SQ between the Bugle / Bugle2 and the XPS-1 ?

In all honesty, I haven't had the pleasure of trying out an XPS-1.

[tony]

Hi Sir Tony,
To my knowledge, there is no local supplier for the Bugle2 - that's why auditioning might not be an option.  I was about to get the SUTs you suggested but decided to hold off for now as I don't use MCs yet.  I'm having my TT calibrated now and would check after if I still need to get a phono stage aside from the tube preamp I got from you.  Just so I'd have different sound flavors handy, I started scouting around for phono stage options.  Since the new one would be a backup, I'm trying to keep my costs low.
Best,
Teta
 

i am making some phono preamps, will gladly lend them to you once done...
so far Larry liked the vintage discrete phono head, the one installed in your tube preamp,
better than the vsps head, i loaned him several chips to try out, opa2134, lm4562, ne5532, rc4558....

[camoteque]

Atty. Teta,

My 2cents, invest in a nice MM cart like the ortofon om red and try it first on your rig since your preamp has a built-in phonostage. I've tried it with my denon 103r with a denon headamp going to the same phonostage as yours. Might save you a lot of money.

[tetablanco]

i am making some phono preamps, will gladly lend them to you once done...
so far Larry liked the vintage discrete phono head, the one installed in your tube preamp,
better than the vsps head, i loaned him several chips to try out, opa2134, lm4562, ne5532, rc4558....

Thanks, Tony! I'll take you up on your offer. In all honesty, I haven't tried your phono stage with a properly calibrated table yet. Since I needed more gain from my AT95e cart, I collected higher output carts and stylii after (M44-7, M44g, NOS N55e improved, and JICO N55e). If everything checks out after I get my refurbished TT from Angelo de Dios this week, I might not need to get a new phono stage after all. Short of getting an SUT, is there any way for us to tweak my tube preamp any further? To avoid clutter, I'd rather improve the internals rather than get more stuff. Thanks again.

[tetablanco]

Atty. Teta,

My 2cents, invest in a nice MM cart like the ortofon om red and try it first on your rig since your preamp has a built-in phonostage. I've tried it with my denon 103r with a denon headamp going to the same phonostage as yours. Might save you a lot of money.

Atty. Teta,

My 2cents, invest in a nice MM cart like the ortofon om red and try it first on your rig since your preamp has a built-in phonostage. I've tried it with my denon 103r with a denon headamp going to the same phonostage as yours. Might save you a lot of money.

Hi Larry,
I focused on Shure carts first since I like the full Shure sound. I just got different stylii variances (.7 round, .6 round,.3x.7 elliptical, and .2 x .7 elliptical) for the standard M44 carts. Once I try these out with a calibrated table, I might be one happy camper already.

[ndotcom]

Hi Larry,
I focused on Shure carts first since I like the full Shure sound. I just got different stylii variances (.7 round, .6 round,.3x.7 elliptical, and .2 x .7 elliptical) for the standard M44 carts. Once I try these out with a calibrated table, I might be one happy camper already.

Sir if you like shure might as well look for the vintage shure type III or type IV, I have both but I prefer the type III on my tone arm. Also for consideration would be the Shure m97xe. I have tried these 3 models with positive results with my SME tone arm.

I am currently using shure m75ed type II on my stock AR XA turntable and liked it too at pinagpahinga ko muna shure type IV. So its short of saying I LIKE SHURE carts...

[tetablanco]

So its short of saying I LIKE SHURE carts...

Same here.

[Superman]

Try also AT-440MLA

[tetablanco]

Try also AT-440MLA

Will try that too, Jen.

[tetablanco]

The Bugle/2 aims to accurately implement the RIAA eq that's why it always comes near the top of the list in reviews.


That's the way to go. At least that's what I will also do if I were in your shoes.


In all honesty, I haven't had the pleasure of trying out an XPS-1.

Thanks for the advice.

[tony]

take note that the RIAA standards are not written in stone,
while playback equipment are most often capable,
the recording industry had deviations, however slight, so that you may optimize
your system using one record from one company, but that is no guarantee
you will get exactly the same results with a record from another company...

[JojoD818]

take note that the RIAA standards are not written in stone,
while playback equipment are most often capable,
the recording industry had deviations, however slight, so that you may optimize
your system using one record from one company, but that is no guarantee
you will get exactly the same results with a record from another company...

I would have to disagree. Yes the RIAA standards were not written in stone like the 10 Commandments, but they are a defined specification.

If there were deviations (and you are right here because there are), blame the masters, the pressings, and the producers for their shortcomings or cost cuttings in manufacturing the record, not the RIAA. That's why those deep in the hobby go to great lengths to get the "first pressing" or subsequently remastered issue.

Needless to say, a badly implemented RIAA eq in any preamp will sound bad no matter what record you play in it.

[tony]

I would have to disagree. Yes the RIAA standards were not written in stone like the 10 Commandments, but they are a defined specification.

If there were deviations (and you are right here because there are), blame the masters, the pressings, and the producers for their shortcomings or cost cuttings in manufacturing the record, not the RIAA. That's why those deep in the hobby go to great lengths to get the "first pressing" or subsequently remastered issue.

Needless to say, a badly implemented RIAA eq in any preamp will sound bad no matter what record you play in it.

the phono head itself is not such a big problem, and like you said, the masters, the recording lathes and the pressings all contribute to the difference....

[geevee]

I have the original battery operated hagerman bugle. I'm also a Shure fanatic (I use Shure V15 IV nos & jico, M55e nos & jico, M44-7). For me synergy matters most. I haven't been satisfied with all the highly reviewed budget phono preamps I've bought. Best to borrow a phono preamp since the weirdest combinations sometimes sound magical.

[tony]

I have the original battery operated hagerman bugle. I'm also a Shure fanatic (I use Shure V15 IV nos & jico, M55e nos & jico, M44-7). For me synergy matters most. I haven't been satisfied with all the highly reviewed budget phono preamps I've bought. Best to borrow a phono preamp since the weirdest combinations sometimes sound magical.

yes....i get this type of feedbacks from frends as well....

[JojoD818]

the phono head itself is not such a big problem, and like you said, the masters, the recording lathes and the pressings all contribute to the difference....

IMHO, the phono preamp itself will be a big problem if it is already out of tune to start with. How can one expect to playback a recording properly, as intended if the eq has an offset.

Speaking of bad pressing, I have this Gene Loves Jezebel album locally released by WEA records that sounded like a can on a string but when my cousin brought a Beggar's Banquet Records copy from the US I knew I was missing a lot.

[tony]

there are instruments that can verify phono head compliance to RIAA standards,
to me the single biggest issue with phono heads is still NOISE.....
gain, and distortion are equally important too...

[tetablanco]

there are instruments that can verify phono head compliance to RIAA standards,
to me the single biggest issue with phono heads is still NOISE.....
gain, and distortion are equally important too...

Yup I agree. The phono stage of your tube preamp gives a completely clean and silent sonic background.

[eXg]

totally forgot I had Bugle 2 --- hibernation period much older than this thread. 

snapped on two 9v batts and sound  was horrible.  forgot that it was configured for MC. 

a quick consultation with Master/builder Jojo, a dash to Deeco for 4 resistors corrected the gain for MM and had the Bugle play like orchestra!!!

it beats my pas3, int. Marantz stereo.  i sure lost a lot of good analog music time.

[tony]

Yup I agree. The phono stage of your tube preamp gives a completely clean and silent sonic background.

this phono head came from the Pioneer SX-770 receiver and is of 70's vintage...
otoh, Jim Jagerman is a very capable designer according to Kevin Kennedy a co-moderator at diyaudio....

there are two types of phono heads out there, the first is the passive, type, and the other is the active type,

there are audiophiles who dislike active types because if the dreaded global negative feedback,
they like passives instead.....

but if you do not know the difference, then you need not worry, just listen and see if you like it...

i am going to make both types so people can compare......

[CoolTOYZPH]

Congratulations!
JojoD really knows his stuff and has good ears.

totally forgot I had Bugle 2 --- hibernation period much older than this thread. 

snapped on two 9v batts and sound  was horrible.  forgot that it was configured for MC. 

a quick consultation with Master/builder Jojo, a dash to Deeco for 4 resistors corrected the gain for MM and had the Bugle play like orchestra!!!

it beats my pas3, int. Marantz stereo.  i sure lost a lot of good analog music time.

[tony]

@tetablanco, fyi, Joseph Esmilla, a world renowned pinoy violinist and with fine ears for music,
uses a passive type tube phono preamp, the same topology was used by Mang Rod in his Musika preamp that i happened to service....http://jelabsarch.blogspot.com/search/label/JE%20Labs%20phono%20and%20line%20preamp

otoh, the AR SP-3, the Precision Fidelity that i repaired, and the venerable Marantz 7 used the feedback types....

to round up your experience, if you can get to hear these phono heads, you can hear for yourself
the difference between the two types on topologies...

imle, the feedback types are quieter, the passive required more gain but is more musical, but this is just me....ymmv...