Author Topic: cable shootout?  (Read 2562 times)

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Offline oweidah

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cable shootout?
« on: Sep 10, 2005 at 10:15 PM »
sir..i know this wont end the great debate / divide..but why not consider a cable shootout to see who's the best all-rounder.. letsay...3 reference system - audio: ss; tube & ht / cd dvd / bookshelf floorstandrs - entry level /mid /hi-endrs....from diy cat5 5e 6 etc to esoteric exotic kbols ????

of course hardcore branded kbol "believers n non-believers" will be hard to convince.
just tinking lang p0

Offline bumblebee

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #1 on: Sep 10, 2005 at 10:31 PM »
There was.

Some recap here.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #2 on: Sep 11, 2005 at 10:04 AM »
bumblebee..tnx.   btw kasama p0 b CAT5 5e or 6 sa shootout n yon?

I think there was a DIY cable used but I'm not sure if it's CATx.

Offline oweidah

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 11, 2005 at 10:14 AM »
sir...kaya nga the emergence of diy catX and other new kbols and interconnects using new available materials from the it/communication field, mayb its time to update..calling all gurus aficionados?

Offline bumblebee

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #4 on: Sep 11, 2005 at 10:52 AM »
I think the shoot out proved that there can be audible differences between cables. I'm sure the diy CATx's can be different too. As to w/c is best for a system, it's the hobbyist who will have to decide on that.

Offline jerix

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #5 on: Sep 12, 2005 at 07:39 AM »
Can u do a Double Blind Test shootout this time?  ;)
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Offline aHobbit

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #6 on: Sep 19, 2005 at 12:18 PM »
sir..i know this wont end the great debate / divide..but why not consider a cable shootout to see who's the best all-rounder.. letsay...3 reference system - audio: ss; tube & ht / cd dvd / bookshelf floorstandrs - entry level /mid /hi-endrs....from diy cat5 5e 6 etc to esoteric exotic kbols ????

of course hardcore branded kbol "believers n non-believers" will be hard to convince.
just tinking lang p0

This is a good objective undertaking - but will have to be judged subjectively. Of course, it can also muster unanimous decisions as to which is the best. AFAIK, it will be hardly beneficial for the general audiophile audience except if a person has the same system combinations - source-preamp-amp-speaker - it will be the sortcut for his search of the good ol' cable.  ;D

However, for most with system not a representative of what is to be used in the shoot-out, IMHO the result will not be in anyway useful, simply because our (good/bad - cost is not the determinant here  :P) sources/amps./speakers do throw their respective input into the equation to put out the final sound.

It is no different as if you are pairing a yammie pre-out to a Rotel amp and the sound is crap. Either you fault the yammie or you fault the rotel - i would fault the bad synergy between them, the cable included!

But the spirit of fun is good anyway, so enjoy! But can the shoot out result be convincing? Why not? Only for the combo where the cable was used! other than that, IMHO, the result may not be applicable at all.
« Last Edit: Sep 19, 2005 at 12:23 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline ATJr.

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 04:08 PM »
sir..i know this wont end the great debate / divide..but why not consider a cable shootout to see who's the best all-rounder.. letsay...3 reference system - audio: ss; tube & ht / cd dvd / bookshelf floorstandrs - entry level /mid /hi-endrs....from diy cat5 5e 6 etc to esoteric exotic kbols ????

of course hardcore branded kbol "believers n non-believers" will be hard to convince.
just tinking lang p0

are you amenable to double blind listening tests?
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline oweidah

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #8 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 05:48 PM »
sir 2ny i rili dont know what double blind listening test but YES OK! basta establish the parameters. mas maganda nga ung ma-test kbols and ics locally available with the DIYs and let ppols ears be the judge
 :)
« Last Edit: Oct 04, 2005 at 05:52 PM by awadeh al »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 06:33 PM »
Only a bias-controlled double blind testing should do.  Unfortunately, we need a good statistician experienced in this to conduct the test.  And the facilities to do that.  And the time.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 07:14 PM »
sir 2ny i rili dont know what double blind listening test but YES OK! basta establish the parameters. mas maganda nga ung ma-test kbols and ics locally available with the DIYs and let ppols ears be the judge
 :)

On DBT, the ears are not the judge.  It's the statistical trending results that will determine the outcome. 

Offline oweidah

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 07:40 PM »
av_phile1..thanx for info... ah ganon p0 pala un. imo maski ano pa man test result lumabas eh the individual end-user's ears pa rin ang masusunod. Pag-uwi, i wont b listening to graphs statistics  but to my kinda' music. Lagi ko nakikita d2 audition,audition, audition...pero iba ung shop environment acoustics kesa sa sarili mo home. At pag IC at spkr cables sana pwede home audition sa actual gears na paggagamitan para malaman kung mag-match sa system mo (suit your taste)... just my mamera :)

Offline bumblebee

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 08:40 PM »
av_phile1..thanx for info... ah ganon p0 pala un. imo maski ano pa man test result lumabas eh the individual end-user's ears pa rin ang masusunod. Pag-uwi, i wont b listening to graphs statistics  but to my kinda' music. Lagi ko nakikita d2 audition,audition, audition...pero iba ung shop environment acoustics kesa sa sarili mo home. At pag IC at spkr cables sana pwede home audition sa actual gears na paggagamitan para malaman kung mag-match sa system mo (suit your taste)... just my mamera :)

The stats will reflect your choice. Pag-uwi mo, you'll wonder why you heard this or why you did not hear that ;)

Offline oweidah

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 09:35 PM »
OT ? den d n malayo sars infected ? dba ganyan naman ang audio? never ending search for eden / nirvana etc. pumasyal ka lang sa tabi-tabi pag familiar ka audition cd o dvd...uy! ok yun ah hindi ko narinig ung bamboo organ ganyan kababa LF sa HT ko! ung boses ni X klaro! hear the strings separate from d violins cello etc... den upgrade itch na! but ok d2 pdvd madami matutunan! cheerssssssssss!!!  :)
« Last Edit: Oct 04, 2005 at 09:41 PM by awadeh al »

Offline bumblebee

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #14 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 09:40 PM »
The stats will reflect your choice. Pag-uwi mo, you'll wonder why you heard this or why you did not hear that ;)

Also, you get to know how many times you got things correctly/wrongly.

Offline jerix

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 05, 2005 at 07:02 AM »
A double blind test shuns off the possibility of judging the item based on preconceived notions for certain brands. However I do agree that result shall always be dependent on the choice of the population - that is, if the population would mostly consist of bass players, most likely most of them would be focusing on how bass notes are reproduced by the item being tested. The same is true to piano players who would concentrate not only on the notes of the piano but even the captured sound of piano playing. On the other hand, there will be somebody who takes note how the vibration of the singers voice is reproduced. For me i usually prefer to hear the "Kalansings" so I may personally select items that produce bright sounds

In other words, in the double blind test it is important also to get at least, the profile of the testing population to  provide data why for example the population generally prefer this item or that item, etc.     
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 05, 2005 at 11:17 AM »
av_phile1..thanx for info... ah ganon p0 pala un. imo maski ano pa man test result lumabas eh the individual end-user's ears pa rin ang masusunod. Pag-uwi, i wont b listening to graphs statistics  but to my kinda' music. Lagi ko nakikita d2 audition,audition, audition...pero iba ung shop environment acoustics kesa sa sarili mo home. At pag IC at spkr cables sana pwede home audition sa actual gears na paggagamitan para malaman kung mag-match sa system mo (suit your taste)... just my mamera :)

Yup, at the end of the day, it's your ears that must indulge in this highly personal, self-centric hobby.  Science, statistics, engineering principles would not increase or decrease your listening pleasures one bit.  They are irrelevant in enjoying this hobby.  Nevermind that Nyquist theorems made your CD and DVD possible. Nevermind that Kirchoff's Laws made possible your amplifer circuits.  Nevermind that Inductance, capacitance and resistance are all that matters in the constuction of cables and interconnects.  For the audiophile consumer, none of these really matter.  You don't think about sound waves diffracting or reflecting when you listen to Madonna or watch Saving Private Ryan.  You don't imagine digital square waves streaming through the DAC and coming out as reconstituted waveforms when listening to Eric Capton.  Nope, you just listen and let your ears bring you to sonic nirvana.  Whether your nirvana is caused by a Yamaha or a Bryston, by a Coincident or a Wharfedale, by an AudioPro or a Van Den Hull,  the only important thing is you're in Sonic Nirvana.  Science may have much to say in constructing those gears, but it has nothing to do with the pleasures of an indulgence.

The audiophile hobby is a personal one, subjective and self-centered where all the biases, perceptions and values of the person come to bear.  That is why this forum and others always recommend AUDITION, AUDITION, AUDITION.  This hobby is all about an indulgence of the ears, among other senses.  At the end of the day, your gears will either impress your ears or they won't. 

But precisely because the hobby is a personal indulgence, whatever experience you get from it is confined to the personal level.  Whatever you say about such experience must be confined to a personal OPINION.  Others may share your opinion.  But they remain as opinions. 

When your personal experience result in a claim that you "heard a difference"  or that your new gears "made a big difference,"  they are opinions.  They are your "2-cents worth."  Unless these experiential observations can be understood from scientifically established engineering principles, they remain as opinions.

It's entirely different when we talk about the FACTS behind this hobby.  And there are many facts borne out of established engineering principles which in turn are predicated by the sciences.  STATISTICS is a tool for scientific research  that places rigourous standard and method in quantifying observable phenomenon to make an assumption valid and scientifically acceptable.  Double Blind Test is a statistical method for verifying an assumption using those same rigors and eliminating such variables as personal bias and preferences and psychological dispositions.  Whether one likes it or not, a DBT statistical result is the ONLY acceptable method for verifying perceived assumptions in the scientific community.   

The results of various DBTs has from time to time  contradicted personal aural experiences or at least failed to affirm them.  Reviewers and audiophiles coming home from a DBT session will always cherish their Krells and Thetas and Audioquests regardless of the fact that the DBT session had failed to establish any significant statitical trending that sonic and audible difference exists between an ordinary Yamaha and a Krell, or between a hardware ZIP chord and an Audioquest.  I doubt if they'd throw away their expensive set-up despite the uncontestible results that the DBT session they participated in proved them to be more audiophools than audiophiles.  But, so what.  Like I said, this hobby is highly personal. And for the most part, your wallet dictates what goes into the racks.  As long as you can afford it, why economize your indulgence?    On top of that, this hobby is MORE than just getting the right amps, players and speakers or cables to satisfy your ears.  I think that's just 25%.  Another 25% is to satisfy the WAF.  ;D The last 50% of the hobby involves satisfying the ego, the social status, the pride of ownership and the bragging rights.   ;D   Nothing that science and statistics tell you will amount to anything because in this hobby,  apart from personal biases and the psychological make-up of the person, the laws of supply and demand can be more compelling than the laws of physics.   ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 05, 2005 at 12:00 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline oweidah

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 05, 2005 at 11:43 AM »
right on! couldnt agree more 2 u av_phile!  :)

Offline aHobbit

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #18 on: Oct 05, 2005 at 02:31 PM »
...the laws of supply and demand can be more compelling than the laws of physics.   ;D

Shall we start the business then?  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Offline rascal101

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Re: cable shootout?
« Reply #19 on: Oct 26, 2005 at 05:46 PM »
Kailan ba ito gagawin?