Topic: How to position your Rear Speakers to achieve a better surround sound?...

[sleepless]

Hi I'm seeking good advice with regards to the right positioning of my Rear Speakers in my room to achieve a better surround sound. Currently I positioned it just on top of my head board in south going north direction direction in a level position because my uncle said that is the right way in positioning the rear speakers. However, I felt that there's something wrong with it because I can only hear the sound effects clearer when I'm standing, but when I sit or lie down on the bed the sound effects obviously diminishes its volume or can barely hear it. 

So what do you think should I do to achieve a better surround sound setup: (I have created some options pls help me out here. Ty)

1. I have the right positioning (both speaker facing south going north at same level position) and that I should just move the rear speakers closer to my ears?..

2. I don't need to move the speaker closer to my ear. But instead, just position the rear speakers in between corners but not too high up the wall though (southwest facing northeast and southeast facing northwest. both of them facing down in slanting position pointing to the ground where i sit or lie down and watch.)

3. I need to put my speaker at the peak of my room wall somewhere in the corner ( it doesn't matter what level position it is, whether it's facing down,facing up or in level position.) important thing is to place it at the peak of the corner of my room so that the speaker would have a wide dispersing sound capability.

4. Or I just need to buy a tower speaker mounter and stand it on the ground so that I can position it where ever i want at the cost of eating some of my precious room space.... =/

I hope someone could help me out here. T.I.A. whatever advice you'll all give based on personal experience or taken from your trusted friends.. it will be well-appreciated.

[jerix]

bro, proper positioning requires your own personal touch. What is proper to me may not be proper to you - that is because most likely, we have different listening environment. Maybe it is best when you discover by yourself the best positioning through trial and error, but start with some basic principles. the term surround by itself means it must envelop you with sounds to obtain more realistic feeling while watching your favorite movie. So positioning your surround speakers in one direction only may not provide better fly around effects. For me its better when you have them in both sides of the room but facing one another. This way the sound effects will play left to right or right to left or in the center. Height -- for me its better when your ears are in the same level with the fronts, center and surrounds. So when your fronts are lower than your ears, then see to it that your surrounds will be bit higher than your ears, so that drawing a straight line between both, your ears should be proportionately in the middle of the line. Controlling the volume is also important. This will pull or push the sound anywhere within your listening area. Whenever i change the location of my listening area either closer or farther from the TV, i will have to change the volume setting of my surrounds and fronts. these are only some -- better test it yourself good luck 

[av_phile1]

The rear speakers may not have a wide dispersion trait so if you're seated against the headboard and your rear speakers are facing straight north above your headboard, you may not hear as much as when you're standing at ear level with them.  If the rear speakers are direct firing speakers, regardless of where you mount them, try angling them to face your ears as you are seated or lying against the headboard.  

[sleepless]

bro, proper positioning requires your own personal touch. What is proper to me may not be proper to you - that is because most likely, we have different listening environment. Maybe it is best when you discover by yourself the best positioning through trial and error, but start with some basic principles. the term surround by itself means it must envelop you with sounds to obtain more realistic feeling while watching your favorite movie. So positioning your surround speakers in one direction only may not provide better fly around effects. For me its better when you have them in both sides of the room but facing one another. This way the sound effects will play left to right or right to left or in the center. Height -- for me its better when your ears are in the same level with the fronts, center and surrounds. So when your fronts are lower than your ears, then see to it that your surrounds will be bit higher than your ears, so that drawing a straight line between both, your ears should be proportionately in the middle of the line. Controlling the volume is also important. This will pull or push the sound anywhere within your listening area. Whenever i change the location of my listening area either closer or farther from the TV, i will have to change the volume setting of my surrounds and fronts. these are only some -- better test it yourself good luck 

I see, from what you've said so far I think we have the same setup except for the side speakers because mine is only 5.1. I think that's why I would never get the right flying around effecs due to the fact that I don't have that extrra 2 speakers from your 7.1 =/  Thanks for your opinion jerix.. 

[sleepless]

The rear speakers may not have a wide dispersion trait so if you're seated against the headboard and your rear speakers are facing straight north above your headboard, you may not hear as much as when you're standing at ear level with them.  If the rear speakers are direct firing speakers, regardless of where you mount them, try angling them to face your ears as you are seated or lying against the headboard.   

Sir avphile I would definitely try your suggestion. I have one question though, is it possible to achieve the right fly around effects while using 5.1 setup only?

[av_phile1]

Ofcourse, 5.1 is intended precisely for what they call enveloping surround sound.  6.1 and 7.1 are just enhancements to make the envelop more seamless.  But not necessary in a well configured 5.1 set-up.  Key here is timber-matched speakers properly configured in terms of channel delay and volume per channel relative to the listener.

[sleepless]

Ofcourse, 5.1 is intended precisely for what they call enveloping surround sound.  6.1 and 7.1 are just enhancements to make the envelop more seamless.  But not necessary in a well configured 5.1 set-up.  Key here is timber-matched speakers properly configured in terms of channel delay and volume per channel relative to the listener.

Thanks sir avphile. Regarding the volume per channel relative to the listener you've mentioned earlier inorder to achieve the right fly around effects, do "surround delay" have something to do also with this and the perfect positioning of the speakers?.. Because as I've observed when watching movies the center driver has always been the loudest amongst the other drivers, specially during scenes when only human speech is present. How do I configure the volume per channel relative to where I usually watch which is basically from the center of my bed; goes the same also with my speaker setup where I usually do the indian squat while watching. I can adjust the center volume, surround volume and its surround delay. What I did is maximize the volume of the three coz honestly, i don't understand the basics of adjustment so I decided to max it all because anyway I can control the master volume if it becomes too loud. But basing from what you've said earlier, I admit there's something wrong with my adjustment. So i ask how would I know and what could be the basic adjustment volume for the rear,center and surround delay speakers given my medium rectangle size room, the position of my speakers and the position where i usually watch so that I can achieve proper enveloping surround sound that any 5.1 speaker promises. Thanks again sir avphile.    

[av_phile1]

What receiver are your using?  Is it capable of generating test tones per channel?

[sleepless]

What receiver are your using?  Is it capable of generating test tones per channel?

Well sir I use Logitech Z-680. it comes with DD and DTS decoder already; And It has a test tone too which can be found at its remote control only. I already tried testing all the drivers and all of it were working fine so far..What shall I do? Thanks

[av_phile1]

1   Make sure each channel gives off the same volume at your listening position.  It's not the same as setting them all at the same volume level, unless all of them are equidistant to your head.  The closer speakers should have a lower volume and the farther from you, the louder.  Use the test tone for this.  An SPL meter would be nice but your ears will do just fine.


2   Set the delay times to reflect their actual distances to your listening position relative to each other.  If your Logitech can set the delay in feet, just estimate the distances.  If it's set in millisecond, take note that 1 ms is about 1.1feet so every additional ms delay is an added 1.1ft. 

[Kevlar]

sleepless,

Most important considerations for maximum surround effect for discrete
5.1 movie/audio formats using direct radiating (monopole) surround speakers:

1. Surround Speaker height should be such that the tweeters are
   exactly at your ear level (or very close to that height).  Placing your surround
   speakers too high or too low with respect to your ear level (EVEN WHEN AIMED
   DIRECTLY AT YOUR EARS) will result in a much lesser left ear-right ear distinction
   with your brain, and hence, less satisfying surround effects.
   'Aircraft flying off' from behind and 'pingpong/panning' surround effects are the
   most seriously affected.  Try to achieve the exact ear level (or close to it)
   whenever possible.

2. Surround Speaker placement should be such that they are positioned
   just a little behind your back if possible.   They should be aimed directly at your ears.
   The angle is close to 180 degrees.  If you have a backwall and can't move them
   behind your back, they are best placed directly at your left and right side in a
   180 degree angle.  Again, wherever you place them, they should be aimed directly at
   your ears.  Moving your surround speakers further back and angling them far from 180
   degrees will result in poorer imaging because the brain is not very good at localizing
   sounds directly at your back.

3. Your surround speakers should be as far apart from each other as are your main speakers
   from each other (and vice-versa) for optimum front-to-surround panning effects.

4. You need an SPL meter and a calibration disc like 'Avia guide to hometheater'
   to balance the sound levels from all your speakers.  Audio equipment/speaker dealers
   usually have an in-house SPL meter and a calibration disc like Avia which you can borrow
   from them (if you bought your audio equipment from them).
   You also need to measure your speaker distances to allow time-delay correction due to
   the fact that sound arrival to your ears varies with each speaker.  The larger the disparity
  of the speaker distances of your front speakers and surround speakers from you, the more
  important it is for you to set the correct speaker distances for proper time-delay correction.

- Kevlar

[sleepless]

1   Make sure each channel gives off the same volume at your listening position.  It's not the same as setting them all at the same volume level, unless all of them are equidistant to your head.  The closer speakers should have a lower volume and the farther from you, the louder.  Use the test tone for this.  An SPL meter would be nice but your ears will do just fine.


2   Set the delay times to reflect their actual distances to your listening position relative to each other.  If your Logitech can set the delay in feet, just estimate the distances.  If it's set in millisecond, take note that 1 ms is about 1.1feet so every additional ms delay is an added 1.1ft. 

Thanks again sir avphile. BTW, my surround delay is neither set in feet nor it's on millisecond, however it do have indicator that it goes up or down like the standard volume control we've all use to see. So I believe it's much harder for me to figure out the right distance than I expected. But thanks to your suggestion I will try it first manually using my ears.       

[sleepless]

sleepless,

Most important considerations for maximum surround effect for discrete
5.1 movie/audio formats using direct radiating (monopole) surround speakers:

1. Surround Speaker height should be such that the tweeters are
   exactly at your ear level (or very close to that height).  Placing your surround
   speakers too high or too low with respect to your ear level (EVEN WHEN AIMED
   DIRECTLY AT YOUR EARS) will result in a much lesser left ear-right ear distinction
   with your brain, and hence, less satisfying surround effects.
   'Aircraft flying off' from behind and 'pingpong/panning' surround effects are the
   most seriously affected.  Try to achieve the exact ear level (or close to it)
   whenever possible.

2. Surround Speaker placement should be such that they are positioned
   just a little behind your back if possible.   They should be aimed directly at your ears.
   The angle is close to 180 degrees.  If you have a backwall and can't move them
   behind your back, they are best placed directly at your left and right side in a
   180 degree angle.  Again, wherever you place them, they should be aimed directly at
   your ears.  Moving your surround speakers further back and angling them far from 180
   degrees will result in poorer imaging because the brain is not very good at localizing
   sounds directly at your back.

3. Your surround speakers should be as far apart from each other as are your main speakers
   from each other (and vice-versa) for optimum front-to-surround panning effects.

4. You need an SPL meter and a calibration disc like 'Avia guide to hometheater'
   to balance the sound levels from all your speakers.  Audio equipment/speaker dealers
   usually have an in-house SPL meter and a calibration disc like Avia which you can borrow
   from them (if you bought your audio equipment from them).
   You also need to measure your speaker distances to allow time-delay correction due to
   the fact that sound arrival to your ears varies with each speaker.  The larger the disparity
  of the speaker distances of your front speakers and surround speakers from you, the more
  important it is for you to set the correct speaker distances for proper time-delay correction.

- Kevlar

Thank you very much sir kevlar. Your suggestion and theories is very good and precise and I'd like to test it as soon as possible. 

[Kevlar]

Thank you very much sir kevlar. Your suggestion and theories is very good and precise and I'd like to test it as soon as possible. 

sleepless,

Do give us feedback on what surround speaker placement
worked best for you so we can also learn... Good luck!

  - Kevlar

[sleepless]

sleepless,

Do give us feedback on what surround speaker placement
worked best for you so we can also learn... Good luck!

  - Kevlar

Yes, as soon as I get back from my vacation. I will do a thorough experiment based from you,jerix and avphile's theories. I thank you all very much.  More Power! 

[cHiNo2728]

I just setup my Euros 8 bookshelf speakers as surrounds. I then looked for a speaker stand that will more or less be level with my ears. When I went to The Home Theater to check out some stands, I was told that I needed to get high stands. Around 4 feet for better "spatial" something. I did not understand it. I am at loss now whether to buy those or get stands that are level with my ears. Does it make a difference if I use bookshelves as surrounds? Please enlighten me with proper height and placement. Currently, I have it on my left and right side ear level.

Thanks!

[cHiNo2728]

I just setup my Euros 8 bookshelf speakers as surrounds. I then looked for a speaker stand that will more or less be level with my ears. When I went to The Home Theater to check out some stands, I was told that I needed to get high stands. Around 4 feet for better "spatial" something. I did not understand it. I am at loss now whether to buy those or get stands that are level with my ears. Does it make a difference if I use bookshelves as surrounds? Please enlighten me with proper height and placement. Currently, I have it on my left and right side ear level.

Thanks!

Any sound advice you can give?

[jerix]

Experiment first by using tables, chairs and even books. Try to sit on the most probable spot when you watch your movie. Listen and focus on the fly around sound, repeating the specific scene, adjusting from to time the height level of speakers, and the signal volume, of course in consideration of the level of your ears and the level of your TV monitor. When you hit the best position then its time to think about your speaker stands.

Whether it makes a difference or not is entirely up to your ears to know. Remember that the purpose is to obtain an illusion that you are in the center of action. Since illusion is within the confines of your mind, allow your mind to decide. 

[cHiNo2728]

Thanks Jerix. Your advise is well taken. Parang The Matrix yung explanation mo. 
"Free your mind" ika nga ni Morpheus (?).

Thanks a lot. So I guess a higher than normal surround stand is not necessary.

[barrister]

I just setup my Euros 8 bookshelf speakers as surrounds. I then looked for a speaker stand that will more or less be level with my ears. When I went to The Home Theater to check out some stands, I was told that I needed to get high stands. Around 4 feet for better "spatial" something. I did not understand it. I am at loss now whether to buy those or get stands that are level with my ears.

Thanks!

For 5.1 setups (5.1 lang ang alam ko, e ), I wouldn't recommend ear-level surround speaker placement.

OK lang ang ear level placement when reproducing sounds that were intended to radiate at ear level. But if the sound was intended to radiate from overhead, I don't think you'd be able to reproduce that in an ear-level surround setup.



That's why Dolby Labs recommends that surround speakers be placed 2-3 feet above the listener's head.


Figure 9: Install the surrounds two to three feet above listeners.



Kung 2-3 feet above ear level, pero nakatutok din naman sa tenga mo, e di baka parang naka ear-level ka na rin.  That's why Dolby Labs recommends that the surround speakers should be aimed straight across, not downwards.


Figure 10: Aim the surrounds straight across, not down at, the listening area.



At dapat, medyo nasa likod ng tenga in order to reproduce sounds intended to radiate behind the listener's head.


Figure 8: Place the surround speakers alongside and slightly to the rear of the seating area.



My surround speakers are around 3 1/2 feet above ear level, but I use wall brackets that enable me to angle the speakers slightly downwards and rearwards.  In effect, parang 2 1/2 feet above ear level din, due to the downward angle.

Pero kanya-kanyang preference pa rin yan.  Of course, this isn't the only correct speaker placement, but it's still good to be open to various suggestions.  But once once you make up your mind, don't let anybody tell you that your speaker placement is wrong.   



===========================================

I see, from what you've said so far I think we have the same setup except for the side speakers because mine is only 5.1. I think that's why I would never get the right flying around effecs due to the fact that I don't have that extrra 2 speakers from your 7.1 =/ 

Baka naman speaker placement lang ang problema. 

Kayang-kaya naman 'yan basta small rooms lang.  For example, 2 surround speakers can phantom a sound behind the listener; the left front and left rear working together can phantom an image to the left side in between the 2 speakers; and all 5 speakers working together can phantom an image just about anywhere in the room. 

The most remarkable surround effect I've heard on my 5.1 system is from the DVD, "The Others" (2001, Nicole Kidman):

1.  Merong sound from above (yung scene na may kumakalabog sa 2nd floor) -  not directly above, but about 6 feet in front of and above the listener.  It's like the sound was coming from my ceiling. 

2.  Kinilabutan ako sa sound sa likod ng ulo ko (yung scene na may mga ghosts na nagbubulungan sa likod ni Nicole).  I emphasize that the sound was not just behind me -- it was really behind my head, parang sa likod ng batok.  Truly amazing, considering that my surround speakers are located more than 3 feet above my head.

The first is an example of 5 or 6 speakers working together; but as for the second -- I don't know how they mixed it.



==========================================



Before upgrading to 6.1 or 7.1 please browse this first:  "Don’t Get Stampeded By The 7.1 Parade" by Mark Fleischmann  -  http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback103.html

Link courtesy of sir yvesjae from another thread.

[cHiNo2728]

Barrister,

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate the effort in explaining the best placement thoroughly.
Right now I bought, temporary stands of around 30 inches in height and placed it as surround left and surround right. I cannot move the surrounds slightly behind my ear as there will be no more space to pass through. It is now positioned directly left and right of my listening position. Although I have plans of upgrading my receiver in the future, I guess I'll have to look for a much higher speaker stand but not that much higher as it will surely stick out of the interior decor and the WAF factor will surely go down. 

Thanks again!

[barrister]

You're very welcome. sir.  Marami na rin akong napulot dito, so I'm happy to give something back.

Right now I bought, temporary stands of around 30 inches in height and placed it as surround left and surround right.

That's why I prefer wall brackets for surround speakers.  Those speaker stands are never high enough, since the ones commonly available were probably designed for front speakers, not surround speakers.

Maybe you can get a pair of those little tables, yung mga table na patungan ng telepono.  Maraming maganda sa mga SM furniture department.  Then set the speaker stands on top of the telephone tables.  Baka mas OK ang height.

I cannot move the surrounds slightly behind my ear as there will be no more space to pass through. It is now positioned directly left and right of my listening position.

OK lang if you presently can't get the placement you want.  Your system won't be located in the same place forever.  But it's good to know the basic setup principles so you'll be able to apply them when your system moves to a new location.

[thx_dts71]

For 5.1 setups (5.1 lang ang alam ko, e ), I wouldn't recommend ear-level surround speaker placement.

OK lang ang ear level placement when reproducing sounds that were intended to radiate at ear level. But if the sound was intended to radiate from overhead, I don't think you'd be able to reproduce that in an ear-level surround setup.



That's why Dolby Labs recommends that surround speakers be placed 2-3 feet above the listener's head.


Figure 9: Install the surrounds two to three feet above listeners.



Kung 2-3 feet above ear level, pero nakatutok din naman sa tenga mo, e di baka parang naka ear-level ka na rin.  That's why Dolby Labs recommends that the surround speakers should be aimed straight across, not downwards.


Figure 10: Aim the surrounds straight across, not down at, the listening area.



At dapat, medyo nasa likod ng tenga in order to reproduce sounds intended to radiate behind the listener's head.


Figure 8: Place the surround speakers alongside and slightly to the rear of the seating area.



My surround speakers are around 3 1/2 feet above ear level, but I use wall brackets that enable me to angle the speakers slightly downwards and rearwards.  In effect, parang 2 1/2 feet above ear level din, due to the downward angle.

Pero kanya-kanyang preference pa rin yan.  Of course, this isn't the only correct speaker placement, but it's still good to be open to various suggestions.  But once once you make up your mind, don't let anybody tell you that your speaker placement is wrong.   



===========================================



Baka naman speaker placement lang ang problema. 

Kayang-kaya naman 'yan basta small rooms lang.  For example, 2 surround speakers can phantom a sound behind the listener; the left front and left rear working together can phantom an image to the left side in between the 2 speakers; and all 5 speakers working together can phantom an image just about anywhere in the room. 

The most remarkable surround effect I've heard on my 5.1 system is from the DVD, "The Others" (2001, Nicole Kidman):

1.  Merong sound from above (yung scene na may kumakalabog sa 2nd floor) -  not directly above, but about 6 feet in front of and above the listener.  It's like the sound was coming from my ceiling. 

2.  Kinilabutan ako sa sound sa likod ng ulo ko (yung scene na may mga ghosts na nagbubulungan sa likod ni Nicole).  I emphasize that the sound was not just behind me -- it was really behind my head, parang sa likod ng batok.  Truly amazing, considering that my surround speakers are located more than 3 feet above my head.

The first is an example of 5 or 6 speakers working together; but as for the second -- I don't know how they mixed it.



==========================================



Before upgrading to 6.1 or 7.1 please browse this first:  "Don’t Get Stampeded By The 7.1 Parade" by Mark Fleischmann  -  http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback103.html

Link courtesy of sir yvesjae from another thread.

pre,
punta k sa www.thx.com pra mkita mo at ma-exp;ane s u maigi ang configuration at proper placement ng speakers.

[jerix]

you should treat all suggestions here as theories. we have different size of rooms, different gears, equipment, etc. you should experiment and whatever set up or positioning you find best -- stick to it until you reorient your HT area.

[D75C]

This is a highly debatable topic and I agree with jerix. we all have different rooms, speakers,  and equipment.

Prior to Dolby Digital and DTS, the design of the surround speaker was a battle in itself.Dipolar and Bipolar are different technologies which suggest different placements because of how they radiate sound. If your center speaker is a AR-15 rifle, the other dipoles and bipoles were claymores and shotguns.

The idea on the speakers being ear level and equidistant from the listening position was a product of the 70s fad quadrophonic recordings. It had to be so because the recording was truly intended for that purpose.

I understand the confusion nowadays because there are so many products that offer so many things, and sometimes a mix of products kinda contradict eachothers design philosophies.

The Dolby whitepaper on speaker placement has been around since they conceived Pro Logic. They just changed the some text to accomodate Dolby Digital. The 2-3 feet above your head and immediately applies to me because I use dipolar speakers (B&W DS-6).

When using dipoles, its suggested that they be adjacent to the primary listening position which they call the NULL zone. The spot in between +180 and -180 degrees of phase. I tried experimenting them directly behind and in parallel to me. The surround effects just sounded unrealistic, distracting, and less spacious.

To end this, just follow whats suggested by the manual of your speaker, set the levels right for your surrounds, set speaker size, distance, and delay settings on your receiver, and just enjoy your investment.

[barrister]

pre,
punta k sa www.thx.com pra mkita mo at ma-exp;ane s u maigi ang configuration at proper placement ng speakers.

sori pre hnde ako kumakagat s mga troll beter luck nxt tym

[ericag_ph]

my two cents...

for proper speaker placement/configuration, go with the speaker manufacturer's recommendations (ie.  go through the manual that came with your speakers).

[IceTea]

At dapat, medyo nasa likod ng tenga in order to reproduce sounds intended to radiate behind the listener's head.


Figure 8: Place the surround speakers alongside and slightly to the rear of the seating area.

Tanong po.  Kung bipolar (WH-2) po ang surround speaker, ganito pa rin po ba ang tamang position?  Or mas tama na sa rear-wall na lang?  TIA.

[Munskie]

Tanong po.  Kung bipolar (WH-2) po ang surround speaker, ganito pa rin po ba ang tamang position?  Or mas tama na sa rear-wall na lang?  TIA.

side wall pa rin sir..

[Jairus]

Tanong po.  Kung bipolar (WH-2) po ang surround speaker, ganito pa rin po ba ang tamang position?  Or mas tama na sa rear-wall na lang?  TIA.

I have a Diamond 8 DFS and I have mine installed at the rear-wall and it works great.  Actually sa manual,  recommended placement can either be the side wall or the rear wall whichever works best for your room.