Author Topic: Newbie and Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on anything Tubes  (Read 98671 times)

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Offline ATJr.

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@bumblebee,

i suggest you go to www.diyaudio.com, under amplifiers, tubes, you will learn a lot. use the search function for topics you want to get informantion about.

guys like thorstein, prr, sy, tubelab.com and many others post there and you can bet more insights to the workings of tubes. ;D
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Offline RU9

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Galing sa Net...

The Driver Tube;
The driver tube is the least understood tube in an amp. If you are putting in matched sets of output tubes (and you really should be) then you are wasting your time and money without a Driver Tube that has been picked for this special job.

Just about every amp with 2 or more output tubes uses a driver tube. Why it is so important is because this tube takes a single signal voltage, and splits it into two. There are actually 2 separate amplifiers in a 12AX7 and in a 12AT7. If each amplifier section in it are working at the same potential - great! But they hardly ever do... so, you need to find one.

As far as I know, no one markets a "driver tube" for musicians, however I do. That's because when I
purchase tubes, I sort them for where in the amp they would perform best. This symmetry in the driver tube allows the 'matched' output tubes to see the same input signal voltage levels, and in turn deliver matching output voltages. When all this and properly biased, the tubes will sound better and last longer. Be sure to read the section on matched sets to fully grasp this vital aspect of your amp.


Preamp Tubes V.S. Output Tubes;
This is where the tone really happens: in the preamp. Read more about that in "ABOUT PREAMP TUBES". Most amps don't depend on output tube distortion to generate the tone. There is an audible difference in the way preamp tubes distort and the way output tubes distort.

Preamp tubes are capable of much higher levels of distortion (safely), and tend to sound like a finer grit of sandpaper than the course distortion of an output tube. For amps that use EL34's (6CA7), EL84's (6BQ5) like Marshall and Vox; these tubes are likely to impart their own tone and or type of
distortion under normal operating conditions. For almost all Fender circuits you will find the 6L6/5881: this is a workhorse clean tube. When working properly, the output tubes do a good job of NOT imparting their own tone, or distortion. In some Marshall's, you'll find 6550's; these tubes are the big brother to the 6L6/5881. They extend the treble a fair amount, and by comparison can be shrill. They also allow you to hear what's going on in the Marshall preamp circuitry with much more detail. Its a good rig for most Metal genre's, as articulation is a key component to a great sound. Its also a great tube for jazz players. The classic Marshall tone is 3) 12AX7's with 4) EL34's for the Rock Arena, for the blues and proto-rock glean its the 40 to 50 Watt version (as above but only 2) EL34's.

Power Tubes;
Just to clarify, Output Tubes AKA "Finals" although they do a lot of work, are really not "Power" tubes, as they are often referred to. I'm too old to try to change the world, but, Power Tubes are rectifier tubes, and (almost never seen in audio) regulator tubes. In both cases "power tubes" refers to tubes that are part of the power supply. Output Tubes are not part of the power supply, so it doesn't make sense to call them "Power Tubes".

Examples of power tubes are 5AR4/GZ34, 5Y3, 5V4, 5U4, A03.
Examples of output tubes are 6L6, EL34, 6V6, EL84, 6550.


About Preamp Tubes;
First off, nobody's tubes sound any better than anyone else's. Its entirely a matter of taste. From one 12AX7 to another, you will hear differences in tone, dynamic range, and distortion characteristics, if you listen to them at clean, low volume settings. If you want to know what they are really doing behind your wall of distortion, first give them a critical low volume listening. If you lack the discipline to do this, then you will never learn what all the different tube qualities are. Its great that you like to play loud - whatever, I do too.

Tone; Some preamp tubes sound thin, some dark. Some lack midrange, some are rich and fizzy.

Dynamic range; Some are accurate, percussive tubes, others are compressed. One may sound too aggressive and the other too squishy. They both sound good, but one will perk your ears up and make you say "Yea, that's what I've been looking for, that's been the missing ingredient!" Compression is not a bad word. In tubes, the effect is so natural and transparent that you don't hear it as compression. It simply has a different feel, which is what you should be focussed on. It can tame the harshness of one amp, but add the punch needed for another amp.

Distortion characteristics; How quickly a tube is driven into clipping, and whether it then gets smoothly rounded off or generates harmonic overtones determines whether the tube simply compresses or goes into distortion. What that distortion sounds like is affected by the tonal characteristics of the tube, and if it is also audibly compressing. What range of notes gets distorted most easily has a great deal to do with your final product in terms of tone. This is because in guitar amps distortion is overtones, and overtones can be in an area where fundamental notes lay as well.

To hear the differences you need only one of each type, and listen to each one in the socket nearest the input jack. Here the preamp tubes' effect will be the most evident. Learning the way you can refine the tone of your amp with tubes is fun, inexpensive, and worthwhile.

Offline markmlists

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Thanks Odyopayl. Others who may also want to share their opinions are welcome. :)

Offline ianmorales

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Sirs, Would you help me where can i find a diy cables and interconnects and how much it is. The cables wich are sold in other audio store ranges 3k to 5k.   Its too expensive for a newbie.


       I got an  AMX el84 with a pair of ROy Allison bookshelf speaker which i acquire it thru sir rene rivo long time ago and a pioneer dvd 535 as my source. What cables and interconnects would fit my audio system.

      Sir Rene buhay pa po ang speaker na binili ko sa inyo. thanks!

Offline Jagner

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Sirs, Would you help me where can i find a diy cables and interconnects and how much it is. The cables wich are sold in other audio store ranges 3k to 5k.   Its too expensive for a newbie.


       I got an  AMX el84 with a pair of ROy Allison bookshelf speaker which i acquire it thru sir rene rivo long time ago and a pioneer dvd 535 as my source. What cables and interconnects would fit my audio system.

      Sir Rene buhay pa po ang speaker na binili ko sa inyo. thanks!

For starters, try using CAT5 for ICs and speaker cables :)


Offline eXg

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am currently browsing on parallel feed and CCS. quite long road ahead for me.

any help to make journey quicker and less "punishing" would be appreciated.

ang daming bagong terms and concepts that go beyond my newbie vocabulary :(.

in laymen's terms, why would i care for these approaches? where are they most applicable?

Offline ATJr.

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am currently browsing on parallel feed and CCS. quite long road ahead for me.

any help to make journey quicker and less "punishing" would be appreciated.

ang daming bagong terms and concepts that go beyond my newbie vocabulary :(.

in laymen's terms, why would i care for these approaches? where are they most applicable?

if you look at the plate curves for say a 12au7, and you plot a resistance load of say 47k ohms, you will find that it is a diagonal line, CCS otoh will have the line running flat horizontal. inspection of the two will reveal that greater output voltage is possible with CCS than with just a resistor load.

paraffeed on the other hand uses ac transformer types to couple the load, instead of placing the transformer primary at plate and B+, this way no dc currents are present and inductance is kept high.

if you have a line amp,try  replacing the load resistor with a current source and you will find out the difference.

That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline Jakob

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don't know if these were asked already, just curious what will happen:

- can i power up an amp with a tube missing (who in the right mind would do this  ;D)?
- what will happen if i remove a tube while the amp is running (aside from getting burned  ;D)?
- can i switch from triode to pentode mode on the fly (while amp is on and running)?
- what does a dim glow of tube (as compared to other tubes) indicates?

sorry mga pang 1-yr old questions yata  ;D

thanks

 8)

Offline ATJr.

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Quote
- can i power up an amp with a tube missing (who in the right mind would do this  )?

yes, but not a good idea, and unsafe, B+ will rise with decreased load! not recommended.


That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline s2kov

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psu caps might kapoof! :P ;D

Offline JojoD818

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don't know if these were asked already, just curious what will happen:

- can i power up an amp with a tube missing (who in the right mind would do this  ;D)?
- what will happen if i remove a tube while the amp is running (aside from getting burned  ;D)?
- can i switch from triode to pentode mode on the fly (while amp is on and running)?
- what does a dim glow of tube (as compared to other tubes) indicates?

sorry mga pang 1-yr old questions yata  ;D

thanks

 8)

Jakob,

ganda ng mga questions mo, pero seriuously naging curious din ako sa mga tanong mo.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

sana yun 3rd question may sumagot.  :P


Offline ATJr.

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Quote
- can i switch from triode to pentode mode on the fly (while amp is on and running)?

yes, my el84 set amp has this switch which i  use to select triode or pentode mode on the fly! ;D
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Offline Jakob

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thanks for the replies guys!

 :)


Offline JojoD818

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2ny,

parang kakatakot naman yun.  :o switching the screen to different potentials. di kaya masira yun tube nun?  ;D

Offline ATJr.

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jojo, even i was skeptical at first, but i tried it and nothing untowards happened, we are dealing here with what 4 or 6 mA, not a big deal at all, i installed 1k decoupling resistors as precautionary measure.


this is how i did it.

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Offline eXg

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i do switch from pentode to triode on the fly. (often with eyes closed ;D)  so far k naman.  i guess mas destructive yg repeated powering on/off. besides,  ABtesting is easier if done on the fly.

but i removed the mode switch after a few mos (thinking of using a true triode tube for triode rather than triode strapping). but definitely, may sonic difference.

i also read that for direct-coupled design, it is not recommended to remove the driver tube as it means sure disaster to the output tube.  am following this strictly (for testing) but don't understand fully why. ???

i do power up my amp w/o tubes for testing purposes only.  i like that extra B+ switch :)
« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2005 at 09:20 AM by eXg »

Offline ATJr.

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Quote
also read that for direct-coupled design, it is not recommended to remove the driver tube as it means sure disaster to the output tube.  am following this strictly (for testing) but don't understand fully why.

this is because when you remove the driver tube, the output tube grid becomes 0volt biased, and we all know in such situation, plate current is at its maximum! but plates will glow red first so you have plenty of time to turn off your amp.
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Offline Garp

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Does anyone know what the math is for computing NFB? I'm having trouble finding literature sa internet. The NFB is a resistor and shunt capacitor (usually 39-100pf). I just want to know if say you want only 6db feedback what the resistor/cap combo should be. Thanks.

Offline ATJr.

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NFB= open loop gain minus closed loop gain, values are in decibels. the capacitor in parrallel with the feedback resistor determines the frequency where gain starts to drop, also called corner frequency.

so you have to know the open loop gain of your amp, that is without the feedback resistor connected. so depending on how much feedback you want, the closed loop gain will follow.
« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2005 at 03:54 PM by 2ny »
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Offline JojoD818

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this is because when you remove the driver tube, the output tube grid becomes 0volt biased, and we all know in such situation, plate current is at its maximum! but plates will glow red first so you have plenty of time to turn off your amp.

switching between triode/pentode mode on the fly = ok (palakasan lang pala ng loob eh, takot ako  ;D)

cherry red plates = pabilisan sa pag off!  ;D ;D ;D

try ko yan on the fly tony pag nakagawa ako ulit ng tube amp. btw, been looking for an el84 pp circuit in fixed bias mode in the internet but unsuccessfull. parang masarap paglaruan yun el84 kasi maliit kaysa el34. playtime!


Offline ATJr.

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jojo,
download mo lang yung datasheet nyan. or kung me tube manual ka, me table doon showing values of plate voltage, neg grid bias, af drive reuirement, plate to plate load, etc.
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Offline Jakob

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ex.

30 watter tube amp having two output tubes/channel, if you remove one (from each channel) during play, will that reduce the power output to just 15 watts?

another newbie question, thanks for your patience  ;D

 :)

Offline eXg

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hmmm, never thought of these before. :)

if that's a Push-pull, it will not work.

if Parallel, am not sure if it will work yet if it does, if it will not damage the amp or any part.

masters 2ny/jojod can perhaps confirm.

--- edits ---

sorry your question is about halving the ouput.  i don't think so (assuming it will work).  too many things in the circuit that determine power.

« Last Edit: Dec 02, 2005 at 07:52 AM by eXg »

Offline ATJr.

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i have tried this is the past, there was an abvious lowering of power(volume) and from my experience, the change is not the same for the two tubes, one sounded louder than the other, probably due to unsymetrical drives.
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Offline JojoD818

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jojo,
download mo lang yung datasheet nyan. or kung me tube manual ka, me table doon showing values of plate voltage, neg grid bias, af drive reuirement, plate to plate load, etc.

c utol meron tube manual tignan ko. meron pa ba nabibiling rca receiving tube manual? yun sa utol ko naninilaw na mga pages at nakakatakot hawakan baka mag collapse na yun book.  ;D ;D

pwede ba i-on yun amp pag walang opt tubes? i mean rectifier and driver tubes lang ang nakakabit. let's say the caps are willing and able to accomodate high voltages. pwede dba? so long as hindi mag cherry red yun driver tubes ko sa taas ng b+! 

para ma test ko yun negative bias voltage?  :)
« Last Edit: Dec 02, 2005 at 11:54 AM by JojoD818 »

Offline ATJr.

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so long as hindi mag cherry red yun driver tubes ko sa taas ng b+! 

for voltage amplifier and driver tubes, the increase in voltage say 10 to 20% will not matter that much in terms of tube dissipation. these tubes are rarely biased to 100% of their plate dissipation ratings, 25 to 50% is normal for these tubes.  output tubes are another story.

if you want to look at the data for 6bq5, it can be found here:http://www.shinjo.info/frank/sheets62.html
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Offline JojoD818

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i'll remember that once I'm able to put the pieces together.  ;D


Offline Jakob

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this is because when you remove the driver tube, the output tube grid becomes 0volt biased, and we all know in such situation, plate current is at its maximum! but plates will glow red first so you have plenty of time to turn off your amp.

what are the other causes that make the output tube glow cherry red? will a defective driver tube do this, much like removing one before powering up.

ty

 :)

Offline ATJr.

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what are the other causes that make the output tube glow cherry red? will a defective driver tube do this, much like removing one before powering up.

When the output tube grid leak resistor becomes open, then the plate will turn cherry red.

Actually, what i mentioned in my last post is dc coupled amp,  for ac or capacitor coupled amps, this is not the case. a deffective driver tube willl manifest itself as weak output. a leaky coupling capacitor will also
make the plate turn cherry red.
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Offline JojoD818

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Should a flux band be electrically grounded (secondary side of course)?

Any difference if it is grounded or left floating?