Author Topic: The War Begins...  (Read 107228 times)

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Offline nels76

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #330 on: Oct 27, 2006 at 09:25 PM »
With new HDTVs, yes,  Current HDTVs and HDTV-ready sets don't recognize what 1080p input is.  Just 1080i. 

Yup. That is what I mean.
1080i can pass througn Component (for now).

I have read that difference between 1080p and 1080i is noticeable on screens 50 inches and above.
So, it is ok to have 1080i on 40-incher and below.

Now, how can XBOX 360 implement 1080p on games if it doensn't have HDMI out?
I am not so sure if the HD-DVD add on has HDMI.
If there is, the 1080p for movies is ok.

I haven't come accrossed yet of HDTVs that accept 1080p through VGA.
From what I know, VGA is analog signal. I may be wrong though.
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Offline nels76

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #331 on: Oct 27, 2006 at 09:27 PM »
The XBox 360 HD DVD Player will connect to Windows Vista-based workstations via USB as both a data drive as well as a HD-DVD video player. (with appropriate HD DVD playback software like Intervideo, etc.)

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/14187

I'd imagine this may be another boost to HD DVD in the format wars.


Seems ironic.

Watch HD-DVD on Computer monitors?
So what is the use of your Toshiba HD-A1 connected to HDTV?
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #332 on: Oct 27, 2006 at 10:25 PM »

I have read that difference between 1080p and 1080i is noticeable on screens 50 inches and above.
So, it is ok to have 1080i on 40-incher and below.


The discs are encoded at 1080p.  Accdg to many early adopters in an AV forum I frequent, the Tosh A1 output at 1080i and with 1080p-capable HDTV upsampling to 1080p regardless of input, the resulting video is indistinguisable between 1080i and 1080p input, regardless of screen size.  And they were talking about it over 100" PJ screens. All fixed-pixel display technologies (plasma, DLP, LCD, LCoS, etc.) are naturally progressive and require deinterlacing of interlaced input.  And because with a 1080p source like HD DVD and BR discs, ALL the video data is completely transmitted and the players simply output them sequentially at 1080i, rather than all at the same time at 1080p per unit of time.  Since the data is buffered and reassembled(de-interlaced) and displayed  progressively in the monitor as 1080p, the resulting video is no less gorgeous than if the display accepted a 1080p input.  No motion artifacting common with interlaced sources.  So for practical High Def HT experience, the current toss-up between 1080i and 1080p input capability in displays is irrelevant when talking about 1080p-encoded sources.  Some would even say that 1080p is a waste. But I don't think it is.  To the extent that the display may not be de-interlacing properly, which may happen with cheap HDTVs, 1080p input has its value.  But I have to admit all the hype about 1080p has convinced the market that it is superior, and no amount technical punditry will convince them that for practical HT high def, they have the same pixel count and can't be distiguished. 


I had commented on another sting a few weeks back that I viewed the Pioneer 1080P next to the 1080i and could not tell any difference.  Now I see why, there really wasn’t any difference!  Except for the $6,000 premium the 1080p had on it.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=52175&pageNo=1&num=



Quote
Now, how can XBOX 360 implement 1080p on games if it doensn't have HDMI out?
I am not so sure if the HD-DVD add on has HDMI.
If there is, the 1080p for movies is ok.

I haven't come accrossed yet of HDTVs that accept 1080p through VGA.
From what I know, VGA is analog signal. I may be wrong though.

VGA is analog and yes, most HDTVs don't have support for 1080p via VGA but only a few.  But like I said, with the vast majority of HDTVs now in homes having no 1080p input capability, MS had been saying all along that they will upgrade their xbox WHEN the market has the gears to accept 1080p, not before. MS may be simply pragmatic to say that its market don't use HDMI yet, and rightly or wrongly designed the xbox without HDMI support as HDMI was still nascent at the time it came out of the drawing board.  But I must say they should have included it with their add-on, if only to match what the PS3 has.  This is admittedly a drawback for the xbox as far as printed tech specs is concerned, but not in practical terms.   Why? How many HDTVs accept 1080p?  Virtually zilch, whether via VGA or HDMI.  1080i is the threshhold for HD.  The ITU-R standards specifies it as minimum.  And true eniough, 1080i input via component is said to be glorious enough since all the data wll be upscaled to 1080p by any competent HDTV - not something you'd lose sleep over. 
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2006 at 08:38 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #333 on: Oct 27, 2006 at 10:34 PM »
Seems ironic.

Watch HD-DVD on Computer monitors?
So what is the use of your Toshiba HD-A1 connected to HDTV?

Haven't heard of HTPC?  Or PCs connected to 34" HDTVs via HDCP compliant graphics cards? 

Haven't heard of Manage Copy that allows you to copy either BD or HDDVD contents once on the PC hard drive? 

You seem to belittle computer monitors. Tthey are actually "HD" ever since.  Many HTPC users already have advance graphic cards to watch upscaled DVD on screens with video resolutions higher than 1920 x 1080.  FYI, Dreamworks and Pixar studios create their animation movies over WS computer monitors. 
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2006 at 12:06 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline Munskie

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #334 on: Oct 28, 2006 at 09:36 AM »
Yup. That is what I mean.
1080i can pass througn Component (for now).

I have read that difference between 1080p and 1080i is noticeable on screens 50 inches and above.
So, it is ok to have 1080i on 40-incher and below.


The discs are encoded at 1080p.  Accdg to many early adopters in an AV forum I frequent, the Tosh A1 output at 1080i and with 1080p-capable HDTV upsampling to 1080p regardless of input, the resulting video is indistinguisable between 1080i and 1080p input, regardless of screen size.  And they were talking about it over 100" PJ screens. All fixed-pixel display technologies (plasma, DLP, LCD, LCoS, etc.) are naturally progressive and require deinterlacing of interlaced input.  And because with a 1080p source like HD DVD and BR discs, ALL the video data is completely transmitted and the players simply output them sequentially at 1080i, rather than all at the same time at 1080p per unit of time.  Since the data is buffered and reassembled(de-interlaced) and displayed  progressively in the monitor as 1080p, the resulting video is no less gorgeous than if the display accepted a 1080p input.  No motion artifacting common with interlaced sources.  So for practical High Def HT experience, the current toss-up between 1080i and 1080p input capability in displays is irrelevant when talking about 1080p-encoded sources.  Some would even say that 1080p is a waste. But I don't think it is.  To the extent that the display may not be de-interlacing properly, which may happen with cheap HDTVs, 1080p input has its value.  But I have to admit all the hype about 1080p has convinced the market that it is superior, and no amount technical punditry will convince them that for practical HT high def, they have the same pixel count and can't be distiguished. 

I have a 720p/1080i native PJ (Panny Ae900) with a 96in screen and HD being provided by HD-A1 and I have to agree with sir AV.  With the video im seeing I wonder how it could be "less glorious" compared to a 1080p display.  HD DVD video output at 1080i via hdmi though looks a bit sharper than 1080i via component.  With the reviews and articles ive read (just like what sir AV has posted) Im not looking to upgrade to 1080p PJs for now.....its just impractical at the moment.  No "amoeba and jellyfish" artifacts too as Sony's Don Eklund would put it.... ;D ;D ;D

As for the Xbox 360 add-on.... it has been leaked out in avsforum (and confirmed) that XBOX live would release an update for the 360 to output 1080p via VGA. 

the link: http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2006 at 09:39 AM by Munskie »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #335 on: Oct 28, 2006 at 05:18 PM »
No "amoeba and jellyfish" artifacts too as Sony's Don Eklund would put it.... ;D ;D ;D


Were you able to verify those "amoeba and jellyfish" artifacts of Eklund on your Tosh?  ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2006 at 05:23 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline Munskie

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #336 on: Oct 28, 2006 at 11:22 PM »
Were you able to verify those "amoeba and jellyfish" artifacts of Eklund on your Tosh?  ;D
yeah.....look at the pic below...posted in avsforum..... ;D ;D ;D



...would have been dead by all the jellyfish stings....hahaha  ;D ;D


Offline krazy

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #337 on: Oct 29, 2006 at 05:51 PM »
It's cell technology from IBM is actually so much more powerful than anything that Intel or AMD PCs have at the moment.  It's not only the most powerful game console ever made, it is also the most expensive.  SONY is expected to lose $200 for each console made and will only recover from game licenses.

But I wouldn't get the PS3 for anything.  Because notwithstanding its processing power, game developers across many platforms design their games on the least common denominator, porting them on the appropriate media at the last stage of production.  That means those games common between xbox and ps would look and behave the same.  There are so few games that will be exclusive to PS3, like Resistance: Fall of Man which is currently nowhere near the top 5 among game aficionados.  And it doesn't have as good an online gaming as the 360.  In fact, I think it has no online gaming facility as yet.

Actually, lots of PS2 games (especially Electronic Arts titles) have online connectivity.  The big difference is how M$ and Sony implement thier online features:  M$ uses a centralized system (XBox Live) while Sony goes the decentralized route leaving it up to the game developer/publishers to have thier own online services, Sony just provides the hardware (network adapter) and the specs for connectivity.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #338 on: Oct 29, 2006 at 06:24 PM »
Yup, that's what I meant.  Sony does not have online gaming, though some of the PS game developers have. Sorry for not being clearer and more specific.   ;D  Often very easy to equate PS3 with Sony. 
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2006 at 06:26 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline Munskie

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #339 on: Oct 30, 2006 at 04:20 PM »
This just in.....


Vivid to Bring First Adult Title to Blu-ray, HD DVD

Vivid girls in HighDef?   8)

Offline dagul27

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #340 on: Oct 31, 2006 at 02:39 AM »
I've downloaded a couple of movie trailers and previews for my Xbox 360 and they are in 720p resolution.One of them is the Titanic which is coming out in HD-DVD(or is it already out? i don't know).Super clear talaga.One week to go and i'll be able to sample the new HD-DVD drive(with free King Kong)and see if it's really worth it. ;D

Offline Munskie

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #341 on: Oct 31, 2006 at 09:43 AM »
Titanic was released by Paramount in the US but was distributed by Fox worldwide so theres a chance it may be released in HD DVD.....but as of now, its not even in the list of planned release.

Offline striderhiryu1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #342 on: Oct 31, 2006 at 10:05 PM »
I was able to score a pre-order for the 60 GB PS3.  The mom & pop videogame store only had 6 allocated for the 60 GB and  and you have to win the preorder it via lottery (no lining up necessary).  Just received a call asking me to pick up the PS3 come launch day.  I hope its true.   :)

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #343 on: Nov 01, 2006 at 12:25 PM »
You're one lucky dude then.  With most stores allocated only 6-12 PS3 units for preorders, most preorders had been snapped up within 5 minutes.  And the launch units have been scaled down by 20%, accordg to a net site. 

Offline striderhiryu1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #344 on: Nov 01, 2006 at 04:53 PM »
Lets see if I can get one 11/11.  Planning to preorder Resistance:FOM and a Blu-Ray movie (just to test). :)

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #345 on: Nov 01, 2006 at 05:49 PM »
Unless you have at least a 32" HTDV that can display 1080p via HDMI, I doubt you'd notice any difference though .  ;D

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #346 on: Nov 03, 2006 at 03:08 PM »
PS3 demos are now on display in big electronic shops in Tokyo. So far, I can't bloody figure out the difference in graphics quality compared with X360 games. However, Sony's demo set-ups are absolutely much more impressive. They're using full HD resolution 46V Bravias (2 side by side in some cases) while MS is still stuck with 26V Samsungs. PS3's catalogue is very cool as well..full A4 size in black while MS has 1/4 size in white...oh well, this is Sony country afterall.

Just wondering why PS3 is equipped only with an HDMI output and their proprietary AV Multi Out.    What about those HDTVs with only D or component video in.   Perhaps 720p and 1080i can also be displayed through AV Multi Out.

Offline krazy

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #347 on: Nov 03, 2006 at 05:43 PM »
[quote author=Clondalkin link=topic=57050es. However, Sony's demo set-ups are absolutely much more impressive. They're using full HD resolution 46V Bravias (2 side by side in some cases) while MS is still stuck with 26V Samsungs. PS3's catalogue is v.msg632533#msg632533 date=1162537731]
PS3 demos are now on display in big electronic shops in Tokyo. So far, I can't bloody figure out the difference in graphics quality compared with X360 gamery cool as well..full A4 size in black while MS has 1/4 size in white...oh well, this is Sony country afterall.

Just wondering why PS3 is equipped only with an HDMI output and their proprietary AV Multi Out.    What about those HDTVs with only D or component video in.   Perhaps 720p and 1080i can also be displayed through AV Multi Out.
[/quote]

Most likely, just like with the PS2, you will need to buy the appropriate D/Component AV multi-out cable for those without HDMI inputs.  Of course, this also means that you pay a premium for that proprietary cable to hook up to your TV :P

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #348 on: Nov 03, 2006 at 06:24 PM »
Most likely, just like with the PS2, you will need to buy the appropriate D/Component AV multi-out cable for those without HDMI inputs.  Of course, this also means that you pay a premium for that proprietary cable to hook up to your TV :P


Those D/component cables are still cheaper than HDMI cables anyway.  Just as long as 720p or 1080i can actually be outputted from Sony's AV multi-out.


Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #349 on: Nov 03, 2006 at 08:01 PM »
D/component cables are analog.  HDMI is an entirely different (and expensive) animal.  It's digital and is the one type-approved for high definition.  Nothing else.  All the  current high def pictures going thu D/Component cables are interim and allowed because the Image Constrant Token (ICT) meant to downscale 1920 x 1080 to 960 x 540 resoution when passing thru component has not been implemented YET.  So the early adopters can still enjoy high def 1920 x 1080 via component/D cables.   

Offline pchin

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #350 on: Nov 04, 2006 at 01:12 AM »
I agree with expect av_phile1  ;)

Gosh...I haven't been to any of the major HDTV stores for a few months....I bet lots of new models available na?  ;D


Offline D75C

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #351 on: Nov 04, 2006 at 02:14 AM »
I don't know how the HD format war will go but one thing is certain. Someone will produce a hybrid that will support both formats. And i would not be surprised if it crawls out of China.
You wonder why it still not good enough after spending P1M.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #352 on: Nov 04, 2006 at 07:24 AM »
Hybrid lens and chips are already available from Ricoh, Pioneer and Samsung to make a dual-format player.  In fact, Samsung announced late last year it will come out with such.  But it is now silent.  Rumour has it that the BD camp is not going to license BD for a dual format player.  So it seems this is more a political issue than a technical one.

And hybrid discs containing BD on one side and HD DVD on the other has already been patented by Warner.  But it expected to cost a lot to produce and  market and there is no certainty the market is ready for it, unless ALL the studios support both formats.   Afterall, this is a war that expects a winner, not a detente or peaceful co-existence.   ;D

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #353 on: Nov 05, 2006 at 09:55 PM »

Offline bachwitz

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #354 on: Nov 07, 2006 at 08:57 AM »
I was able to score a pre-order for the 60 GB PS3.  The mom & pop videogame store only had 6 allocated for the 60 GB and  and you have to win the preorder it via lottery (no lining up necessary).  Just received a call asking me to pick up the PS3 come launch day.  I hope its true.   :)

I got this news from an insider in bestbuy.com. a hacker was able to dig a link in their website that will  put you on the pre-order page of PS3. The link was not accessible if you go to the main page, but was existing and not disabled (maybe a ready made page for future use). Worst, the hacker posted it on a forum. For 3 hours lots of bestbuy members was able to make an order before the ordering button was disabled. Bestbuy had no choice but to honor those orders or face lawsuits. But I think its defends on availability and store pre-orders are still the priority.

Offline bachwitz

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #355 on: Nov 07, 2006 at 09:01 AM »

Offline nels76

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #356 on: Nov 10, 2006 at 05:18 AM »
The Mysterious Gamma Ray Burst

Offline striderhiryu1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #357 on: Nov 11, 2006 at 02:59 PM »
Picked up my 60GB PS3 today which I won in a preorder lottery.  Nice touch on the detachable power cord but the composite video in the pack was disappointing.  Oh well.. I already have a HDMI and D4 and component connector so no problem.  Still waiting for my amazon order of Resistance.  Will test with AE-700 later for dvd playback capability










Offline Munskie

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #358 on: Nov 11, 2006 at 03:23 PM »
wow!!!.  you're one lucky dude.  congrats!!!  ;D ;D

Offline av_phile1

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Re: The War Begins...
« Reply #359 on: Nov 11, 2006 at 03:55 PM »
Picked up my 60GB PS3 today which I won in a preorder lottery.  Nice touch on the detachable power cord but the composite video in the pack was disappointing.  Oh well.. I already have a HDMI and D4 and component connector so no problem.  Still waiting for my amazon order of Resistance.  Will test with AE-700 later for dvd playback capability



Congrats.  Enjoy your new toy.

BTW, composite video is always dissappointing.  It's hardly ever used among serious videophiles.  ;D