Topic: Vintage Recievers vs. Vintage Integrated Amps

[allan1836]

I am just wondering why most vintage amp collectors prefer recievers over integrated amps. Are recievers better sounding or better built? Ironically, with todays standards, most audiophiles prefer separates or integrateds over receivers for pure stereo audio reproductions. I also belive that even then, separates and integrateds are considered superior in sound quality. Less parts to interfere with the sound, less load on the power supply, less electrical interferance with the tuner section, etc.

Thus, why do I feel that receivers are more popular (even in the states) for vintage amp collectors.     To the experts, any thoughts on this matter. Tnx 

[wraith]

most vintage receivers have a phono input for use with turntables.  i'm not sure if most vintage integrated amps have a phono input.

sound quality difference between the two? that's debatable on a model-to-model basis.

[rascal101]

Vintage integrated amps also have phono input.

Now as to why in the US, people prefer vintage receivers, I can only guess.

[oweidah]

allan,

m not a vintage expert.  your guess is as good as mine.

its hard to generalize whether separates are better than receivers. case-to-case/ model-to-model basis. there are even power/pre lemons that wont stand up to some of the totl receivers.

receivers - libre na tuner and in those vintage days gone by, analog tuners are so danm goood so instead of looking for vintage tuners, added bonus na yung tuner

[dana]

hi allan,

not a vintage expert, but getting vintage in age and getting lots of vintage friends too

own  some vintage receiver & integrated amps.like them both and still looking on the horizon ...

in the US, I can only surmised, they like it BIG in everything....BIG BURGERS, BIG CARS (then), BIG B**BS  etc.
these BIG description exemplifies this BIG BEAST RECEIVERS, solidly built, with their  big/shining  aluminum  knobs, big fluorescent displays, switches....With their big build and weight, setting them up can be give you a hernia, slip disc, hemorhoid...so stay away 

Personally, i like them old. Also,  aside from their established reputation,  they seem to have lots of things inside. Everything is discrete (as Owediah puts it, these analog tuners are so darn good...)

I can only imagine how difficult it was to produce them considering the  manufacturing and engineering controls just to build one, the labor of love put into it. You can say, its a work of art putting these things together and yet producing a big nice sound ( sensya na, am not so good at describing ek ek ek sound ...i just trust my audiotrained ears .

These selected vintage receivers/ integrateds have already established some sort of a cult following popularly in the US and was built to last, according to many fans.


(allan, sent u a pm...)

[allan1836]

Thanks for the inputs guys!!! I guess you all have a point. Its more of an "ego" thing I supposed rather than audio sensibility.  As they say, "the bigger the better" ( maybe not always!). 

As for the tuner side, in my experience, analog tuners can really perform very well but and if, its in pristine condition. Otherwise, it will perform below par against digital tuners.

Dana, got your pm.

[oweidah]

As for the tuner side, in my experience, analog tuners can really perform very well but and if, its in pristine condition. Otherwise, it will perform below par against digital tuners.

allan

i beg to disagree.
my HK930 rcvr's am/fm tuner section even with detachd built-in am antenna & dial that needs manual help coz the needle sometimes gets stuck in the middle of the fm band, is imho, way better than my previous nad414rds digital tuner which has always been in tiptop shape and the nearest tuner ive heard that approximates the analog tuners' sound quality. its also better than my technics st8080 analog am/fm tuner.

[dana]

Its more of an "ego" thing I supposed rather than audio sensibility.  As they say, "the bigger the better" ( maybe not always!).  ...

thats not always the case... you might be surprised, that some of these audio gears from the golden years of audio can still  kick the ass of mid to high end priced audio of modern production.most of these vintage gears are described as tubey sound...maybe because the designers of these vintage gears were partly influenced or  probably also the designers of tube gears  then, whose ears are still calibrated to the tubey sound...PIONEER, MARANTZ, SANSUIs, ACCUPHASE,HARMAN KARDON,LUXMAN  are the most popular of these brands, they are highly regarded in the old school audiophile community...

[oweidah]

thats not always the case... you might be surprised, that some of these audio gears from the golden years of audio can still  kick the ass of mid to high end priced audio of modern production.most of these vintage gears are described as tubey sound...maybe because the designers of these vintage gears were partly influenced or  probably also the designers of tube gears  then, whose ears are still calibrated to the tubey sound...PIONEER, MARANTZ, SANSUIs, ACCUPHASE,HARMAN KARDON,LUXMAN  are the most popular of these brands, they are highly regarded in the old school audiophile community...

to the tune of strangers in the night circa 19xx - tubey-doo-bi-doo tubey tubey doooo

[av_phile1]

I am just wondering why most vintage amp collectors prefer recievers over integrated amps. Are recievers better sounding or better built? Ironically, with todays standards, most audiophiles prefer separates or integrateds over receivers for pure stereo audio reproductions. I also belive that even then, separates and integrateds are considered superior in sound quality. Less parts to interfere with the sound, less load on the power supply, less electrical interferance with the tuner section, etc.

Thus, why do I feel that receivers are more popular (even in the states) for vintage amp collectors.     To the experts, any thoughts on this matter. Tnx 

You said it yourself. Stereo Receivers were never seriously considered by audiophiles. They start with integrateds.  Call it a biased outlook.  But that's the reality.  All-in-one boxes never could perform as good as separates.  They were a solution for the masses, but not for audiophiles.  At least with integrateds (also looked down by some audiphiles) they are said to have better circuitry coming close to real separates.  FM tuners in receivers were looked down, as they won't even come close in performance to separate FM tuners ( no AM/FM tuners, but FM ONLY tuners, as there is nothing audiophilic about AM so no point having one in their expensive gears.  )  And I need not mention about power amps with dedicated power sources that is shared and often current challenged in most receiver designs. 

This notwithstanding, I am sure there were excellent receivers in the past.  Just never bothered with them in my early years in this hobby.   

[rnb_zounds]

We are talking about popularity of receivers... This behavior is not just in the vintage stuff. And I believe it is not so much in the quality of the sound. We must never forget the looks factor. I mean, ever compared a lighted receiver to a "plain jane" integrated or separates in the dark? Unless you have some VU meters bopping about with the sound, nothing visually exciting with your audiophile amplifier huh? The big receivers were a sight to behold. People are naturally attracted to visually stimulating stuff. How many of you with vehicles never factored the dashboard area as part of your reasons for choosing one model over the other?

And let's not forget the "I feel I get more situation" in a single package. Radio was such a big thing back then for many decades. I won't say receivers sound bad or worse than the separates or integrateds in all cases. But they look awesome and if they sounded right, well...

By popular demand, just look at even today's cheap stuff. Golly, equalizers that are like Christmas decors complete with running LEDs. I don't like em, but I think they sell well. Even Sansui, Kenwood, Pioneer had in the 80's made very visual products that sold well, but would be frowned upon by audiophiles.

And compare today's PC's with transparent lighted sidings and lighted cooling fans complete with digital displays for temperature and fan speed to the plain PC of the 80's and 90's. You get the idea.

Oh, and the best analog/hybrid tuners of yesteryears are way better than the pure digital ones we have now. Way-waaaaaay better.

 

[allan1836]

Well, I've noticed too that many "audiophile" vintage collectors have vintage separates too. Maybe to distinguish them as true audiophile against the masses , who just collects for nostalgia, asthetics, flexibility of all in one, with sound as secondary goal.

I partially agree with av_phile1 regarding the quality of sound of separates. I recently heard a hybrid hi-end separates using my own Jap speakers and I almost didn't recognize the sound of my speakers! It was transformed and sounded like a megabuck european speakers!! Though caution in matching must be considered since I've also heard some hi-end set-ups which some recivers can match sonically.

rnb_zounds has a point too, in that, part of the pleasure in audio listening is admiring the ashetics of the units. Though the disco lights and the other effects is a matter of taste (Sorry, I'll pass this one, next pls. ...) The analogy to other "boys stuff" like cars, watches, girls ?! (no pun intended) and the likes are the same with audio stuff. We take more pride in better looking gears. 

I've also noticed that most people refer to vintage ss amps as tubey ?! Frankly, What is Tube Sound? I've heard tube amps with different characteristics, some are really warm but others sound like ss amps too (Sansui all tube receivers comes to mind here...). Not to mention some new tube amps from China which sounds more ss than tube IMO. Maybe its the perception since vintage ss amp is of the same or near the tube era.

[Lord Foo]

To concretise the question in my mind, I asked myself, Will a Top of the line vintage integrated amp like the Sansui AUD907 outperform a top of the line receiver like the Sansui QRX9001 quadrasonic (which i got from you Sir Allan!!!)?

(Unfortunately, I don't have a TOTL integrated amp ).I have a Sansui AUD707xdecade though...

I listened to both and realized my Old ears could not differentiate which is better soundwise!!! They both sound great!!! I guess I am not an audiophile but an audio collector...


Here are some of the issues i thought of or have picked up elsewhere:

1. Preference - It all comes down to personal preference. If you don't listen to tuners, you don't need a receiver. However, some claims that the beatiful lights of a receiver is a definite turn on. For some the front face of a receiver is a work of art. This is true for me. Often, i stay up late nights with no lights on... only the glow of the receiver face keeping me company while listening to my favorite tracks.

2. Availability - there are a lot more receivers available back then when tuners were very widely used. I don't know if this is true in the Philippines... the pier surplus shops have been bringing in a lot of integrateds and not receivers due to the tuner retuning problem.

3. Cost - technically an integrated amp will perform better at the same cost level since there's no need to squeeze in a tuner. Also more parts in the receiver will result in more, "degradation" of sound quality. But if you have to have a tuner, wouldn't the tuner+integrated amp combo cost more than a receiver?

4. Space - if you are kinda squeezed in for room space, a receiver will already include a tuner. (if you need a tuner that is.)

5. "It is not an apple to apple comparison." what goes into a receiver is different from what goes into an integrated amp.

---
Here are some of the receivers and Integrated amps in my collection. I've read somewhere that the SX1250 will outperform a lot of integrated amps... but my unit is still not working perfectly so I can't really say if this is true.

Sansui QRX9001
Sansui 8080db,
Pioneer SX636, SX1080, SX1250
B&O Beomaster
Sansui 5000

Yamaha C1000
Heathkit 1515
Luxman L400, L3, LV105u
Sansui AU7500, AUD 707xdecade, AUD 707Gextra.

[ATJr.]

I listened to both and realized my Old ears could not differentiate which is better soundwise!!! They both sound great!!!

congratulations then...    amps need not sound different if set as same levels and listened to on the same set of speakers, transparency/honesty of those amps are demonstrated that way....

[aHobbit]

congratulations then...    amps need not sound different if set as same levels and listened to on the same set of speakers, transparency/honesty of those amps are demonstrated that way....

    

Why not ... almost all (decent) amps are the most tamed (read: near perfect-almost zero distortion) in the audio chain ...

To concretise the question in my mind, I asked myself, Will a Top of the line vintage integrated amp like the Sansui AUD907 outperform a top of the line receiver like the Sansui QRX9001 quadrasonic

Here are some of the issues i thought of or have picked up elsewhere:

1. Preference - It all comes down to personal preference. If you don't listen to tuners, you don't need a receiver. ...

2. Availability - there are a lot more receivers available back then when tuners were very widely used. ...

3. Cost - technically an integrated amp will perform better at the same cost level since there's no need to squeeze in a tuner. ...

4. Space - if you are kinda squeezed in for room space, a receiver will already include a tuner. (if you need a tuner that is.)

5. "It is not an apple to apple comparison." what goes into a receiver is different from what goes into an integrated amp.

If I may add ... we differ in what catches our imagination (read: idiosyncracies) ... so we buy according to the dictates of these idio ...

- if it is all about power, get all the watts you dreamed off
- if it is all about hypnotic light, get all the captivating light you wished for
- if it is about space, get the smallest thing that will deliver the goods (oh my T amp!  )
- if it is all about construction & beauty, then get the extra heavy, fully lacquered piece of art you can hold
- for others, it is the fashion statement
- for others, it is a utillity to hear music

personally, don't see the need to hear FM in a high end, the cheap radio will do for me in the Philippines!  But sometimes, my curiousity drives me to check out and try a time or two. IMHO, it is hardly conclusive to say integrated sounds better than receivers ... some 'audiophiles' run after gears for the wrong reasons (biases, impressions, hypes, suggestions) ... so at the end of the day, even if some section prefers integrated or receivers or even separate does not necessarily construe their choice to be better than the others - of course for them it is !!!

To listen is to keep an open mind!

For those pier thing, of which majority came from Japan, the integrateds are great but the tuners is almost useless unless spent for with another few bucks ... the one in MSM cubao, being from the USA, maybe more useful but found them too expensive and sometimes altered (repaired). You could just wished they replace the parts with the correct one ... The other one me and my brother frequented closed shop na, probably because we always cart their goods too cheaply     

[titan]

Hi,

How much would you buy this JBL James B. Lansing SA 600 Amp if given a chance?
An uncle's friend of mine own this amp. just collecting dust. A1 condition not surplus unit.
Already have the actual pics i just dont know how to post it here.

[Lord Foo]