Topic: OPPO DV983H

[streetsmart]

Tama yata si sir streetsmart.

I vote for his procedure on Reply #116!

Nakalimutan ko include ang Denon 2808. I think people will be interested in that kasi marami din Denon owners. Also, the 2808 is the cheapest Denon with the advanced version of Audyssey.

Paul and I will sit down together this weekend. Tingnan ko ang testing software nya (HQV benchmark). We will refine the procedures and post them here for everyone to scrutinize and make recommendations.

Once Paul's Oppo 983 comes, we will finalize the date for the shoot-out. We will need volunteers to be the judges. We will disclose who the judges were but we will not disclose their individual scores. Only the total scores.

[pchin]

The Oppo 983 is very interesting. I think people would be interested in the following (all straight):

1. Pio 696 vs Oppo 983
2. Tosh A35 vs Oppo 983
3. Pio 696 vs Tosh A35
4. PS3 vs Oppo 983
5. PS3 vs Pio 696
6. Oppo 980 vs Oppo 983
7. Oppo 983 vs Pio 696 thru VP50Pro

Wow...many nice models...I'm salivating na to know the results...

For simplicity, maybe we can list down "ALL the players" participating in the shoot-out instead of saying "ABC player vs XYZ player"... it's a bit confusing.

Perhaps we could use a ranking system where the judges can award the points accordingly to each individual player. Thus, in the future we can easily add in additional players to be tested & update the ranking appropriately.

[streetsmart]

Wow...many nice models...I'm salivating na to know the results...

For simplicity, maybe we can list down "ALL the players" participating in the shoot-out instead of saying "ABC player vs XYZ player"... it's a bit confusing.

Perhaps we could use a ranking system where the judges can award the points accordingly to each individual player. Thus, in the future we can easily add in additional players to be tested & update the ranking appropriately.

This is something that can be discussed. That's actually the simplest method but that's not a blind test. A blind test is an A-B comparison. What you refer to is the points that some magazines give to products, but these are quite controversial because they can be very subjective.

If you wish, we could do a blind test and we can also do the points system you mention, but the points system will not be blind.

I'd like to hear what others may suggest.

[Moks007]

Can you guys include the oppo 981 ( if there will be any volunteers to bring this unit.) There is no Faroudja chip ata in your list. Also pls add toshiba a35 vs. ps3 ..Thanks

[pchin]

Also pls add toshiba a35 vs. ps3 ..Thanks

Both are already in the list na Raymond.

[streetsmart]

Can you guys include the oppo 981 ( if there will be any volunteers to bring this unit.) There is no Faroudja chip ata in your list. Also pls add toshiba a35 vs. ps3 ..Thanks

ESi has volunteered to bring Oppo 980. I don't know how different that is from the 981.

[Moks007]

ESi has volunteered to bring Oppo 980. I don't know how different that is from the 981.

I think the 980 has an advanced mediatek chip. 981 has the faroudja chip. I think the 981 (nothing against 980) would be a real good player to include in this test imo bec its only priced at 229usd. The 980 is good too bec it cost 169usd. Oppo 981 is compared to the Denon 2910 or 3910 ata, performance wise ata.

[streetsmart]

I think the 980 has an advanced mediatek chip. 981 has the faroudja chip. I think the 981 (nothing against 980) would be a real good player to include in this test imo bec its only priced at 229usd. The 980 is good too bec it cost 169usd. Oppo 981 is compared to the Denon 2910 or 3910 ata, performance wise ata.

If someone volunteers an Oppo 981, that would be great. Wala lang ako kilala na merong ganun. Si @danrd lang pero binenta na nya.

[kalash]

Just a suggestion,

can you also include a non-upscaling dvd player so for people like me who does'nt  have one yet could decide if it is really worth it to spend on a brand new upscaler since most of the consumers have already an existing dvd player.

[streetsmart]

Just a suggestion,

can you also include a non-upscaling dvd player so for people like me who does'nt  have one yet could decide if it is really worth it to spend on a brand new upscaler since most of the consumers have already an existing dvd player.

That's easy. We just set the output of a dvd player to 480i and I can assure you that it will fail all the tests in the HQV benchmark. The difference is like night and day, especially on bigger screens. We will be using a 120" screen so the weakness of 480i will be very apparent.

[pchin]

I can assure you that it will fail all the tests in the HQV benchmark. The difference is like night and day, especially on bigger screens. We will be using a 120" screen so the weakness of 480i will be very apparent.

True...the objective of the proposed shoot-out is to compare all the popular upscaled DVD players performance & to see which one is among the best. 

[kalash]

That's easy. We just set the output of a dvd player to 480i and I can assure you that it will fail all the tests in the HQV benchmark. The difference is like night and day, especially on bigger screens. We will be using a 120" screen so the weakness of 480i will be very apparent.

[/quote]With a PJ and screen size that big, a dvd upscaler would definitely have a big impact on it but on smaller screen sizes like a 32inch lcd how large would its impact be.

This is something that can be discussed. That's actually the simplest method but that's not a blind test. A blind test is an A-B comparison. What you refer to is the points that some magazines give to products, but these are quite controversial because they can be very subjective.

If you wish, we could do a blind test and we can also do the points system you mention, but the points system will not be blind.

I'd like to hear what others may suggest.

I would say that both methods are subjective but with the nature of the experiment, a point system and ranking them after would be more applicable. Blind test is usually done when you are comparing two different parties; like blu ray vs hd dvd, analog vs digital, lcd vs plasma but like what pchin said,

True...the objective of the proposed shoot-out is to compare all the popular upscaled DVD players performance & to see which one is among the best. 

[streetsmart]

With a PJ and screen size that big, a dvd upscaler would definitely have a big impact on it but on smaller screen sizes like a 32inch lcd how large would its impact be.

On a 32" lcd, you can see the difference between 480i and 480p. But if you try to go up to 720p, at normal viewing distance, you probably won't see any difference.

I would say that both methods are subjective but with the nature of the experiment, a point system and ranking them after would be more applicable. Blind test is usually done when you are comparing two different parties; like blu ray vs hd dvd, analog vs digital, lcd vs plasma 

Actually, the HQV benchmark is objective but if you give one player a rating of 90 for a particular test, its hard to say when you give a rating of 91 or 89. That's when it becomes subjective and you may have to go back and review one particular product vs the other. That's why its hard to make it a blind test.

The idea behind the blind test is to remove the knowledge that you are rating a particular product, because this might introduce some bias. In a blind test, however, you normally do A-B tests, i.e., one against another one. That's because our memory of the video quality is easily forgotten. Of course, if you are testing multiple products, then you have to a lot of A-B tests, and that is its weakness.

Between the 2, I think that a blind test is better, but harder to implement. I don't know what others think.

[kalash]

Even with the point system, the judges should not know the brand they are judging so as not to create bias. By doing the A-B test, you would also arrive at ranking them from the best to the worst. I agree that we easily forget the video quality of one device so it is best to integrate both methods. If there is time constraints you could set a benchmark player and compare the rest to it if it would be ranked higher or lower to it and group them. And then repeat the process for the new group.

[streetsmart]

Even with the point system, the judges should not know the brand they are judging so as not to create bias. By doing the A-B test, you would also arrive at ranking them from the best to the worst. I agree that we easily forget the video quality of one device so it is best to integrate both methods. If there is time constraints you could set a benchmark player and compare the rest to it if it would be ranked higher or lower to it and group them. And then repeat the process for the new group.

This might be possible. Sounds like one of those logical brain-twisters. 

Assume that we have the following devices to rank:

1. Pio 600
2. Oppo 983
3. PS3
4. HD-A35
5. Pio 600 with VP50
6. Pio 600 with Denon 2808
7. Oppo 981

What procedure would you suggest for the testing, keeping in mind that people's video memory can be short?

[Munskie]

This might be possible. Sounds like one of those logical brain-twisters. 

Assume that we have the following devices to rank:

1. Pio 600
2. Oppo 983
3. PS3
4. HD-A35
5. Pio 600 with VP50
6. Pio 600 with Denon 2808
7. Oppo 981

What procedure would you suggest for the testing, keeping in mind that people's video memory can be short?

Mark, ilang "hdmi in" ang 2808 mo?   May I suggest to have multiple copies of reference source material, para sabay sabay maiplay yung mga scenes, then toggle na lang sa AVR yung source input.

Mahirap kasi split screen or multiple screen, its a logistics nightmare, and besides, dapat same brand na monitor, tapos calibrated rin dapat pareho.

[pchin]

Assume that we have the following devices to rank:
1. Pio 600
2. Oppo 983
3. PS3
4. HD-A35
5. Pio 600 with VP50
6. Pio 600 with Denon 2808
7. Oppo 981

Since Pio 600 is pairing with VP50 & Denon 2808, maybe we can also have the other players pair with VP50 & Denon 2808? Thus, we have three groups of testing:

Group A: Standalone
Group B: with VP50
Group C: with Denon 2808

....on second thought, the judges may complain of the long judging hours...parang beauty pageant with various categories 

[barrister]

May I suggest to have multiple copies of reference source material, para sabay sabay maiplay yung mga scenes, then toggle na lang sa AVR yung source input.

That's what I also suggested here:

How about burning the demo clips on 4 separate DVD-Rs, each having identical contents.  Each player will have its own disc for faster switching.

This will save the time needed for loading the disc to the next player and forwarding to the proper test scene.
Quick switching between video sources is important for accuracy, so the viewer doesn't forget how the previous image looked like. 

The idea behind the blind test is to remove the knowledge that you are rating a particular product, because this might introduce some bias. In a blind test, however, you normally do A-B tests, i.e., one against another one. That's because our memory of the video quality is easily forgotten. Of course, if you are testing multiple products, then you have to a lot of A-B tests, and that is its weakness.

Between the 2, I think that a blind test is better, but harder to implement. I don't know what others think.

AFAIK, blind tests are the norm for audio equipment, but not for video equipment.  In audio, they have stricter methods for higher accuracy, the rationale being that ears are less reliable than eyes. 

Assume that we have the following devices to rank:

1. Pio 600
2. Oppo 983
3. PS3
4. HD-A35
5. Pio 600 with VP50
6. Pio 600 with Denon 2808
7. Oppo 981

What procedure would you suggest for the testing, keeping in mind that people's video memory can be short?

I have another suggestion (na naman? ):

Why not pattern it after the professionals?  And if you're looking for tests done by obsessive-compulsive HT weirdos, there's no crazier bunch of HT geeks than at hometheaterhifi.com.

Here's my suggestion:

1. Think of a list of video criteria you want to test.
2. Look for video clips that will test each criterion and assemble the clips on a DVD-R.
3. Test each player individually, then give each player: (a) 1 score for each criterion and (b) 1 overall score.
4. Tabulate the results on a chart. 

That way, you test each player only once.  Comparisons will be made by simply referring to the chart.


Sample chart from Secrets DVD Benchmark: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?articles=all&function=search
Prog Scan shootout guide: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html

[streetsmart]

AFAIK, blind tests are the norm for audio equipment, but not for video equipment.  In audio, they have stricter methods for higher accuracy, the rationale being that ears are less reliable than eyes. 

Let's take this one by one. I like this observation. I think you may be right. If this is the case, can we agree that this will NOT be a blind test? That will simplify a LOT of things.

With regard to the test material, Paul has an HQV benchmark discs that can provide all the test images. No problem.

We could also burn multiple copies and use the VP50 as a hub cuz it has 4 HDMI and 2 component inputs. My only concern is the HDMI hand-shaking. Paminsan, di makita ng processor ang source unless you switch it off first - I will need to confirm if this is an issue. Note that even if the test is "sighted," it will still be useful to compare players to each other so as to validate scores.

Basahin ko rin mga links ni @barrister but I think that Paul's HQV benchmark will be the best.

[barrister]

If this is the case, can we agree that this will NOT be a blind test? That will simplify a LOT of things.

Blind testing won't be necessary.  If you browse my homeheaterhifi.com links, you'll find that not even the crew of Secrets uses blind testing for video.

[streetsmart]

Sample chart from Secrets DVD Benchmark: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?articles=all&function=search
Prog Scan shootout guide: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html

Nakow!!! Super OC naman itong link!! Di natin kaya yan! 

[streetsmart]

Blind testing won't be necessary.  If you browse my homeheaterhifi.com links, you'll find that not even the crew of Secrets uses blind testing for video.

Sige. If no one has any objections, then we will do a "sighted" test. Simplifies a lot of things.

Next step, Paul and I will have to review his benchmark disc and then see if we can easily toggle between sources. Palagay ko, kaya through the component inputs but maybe not HDMI.

Assignment of Paul will be to burn multiple copies of his disc. 

[pchin]

Assignment of Paul will be to burn multiple copies of his disc. 

Good ideal of Munskie & barrister

No problem...at your service Mark!

[pchin]

Mark, I have prepared two HQV discs & the score sheet mockup + score card should be ready after lunch.

Will drop over to your house this afternoon for your preview & test run. We'll catch up tomorrow 2pm to discuss further.

[streetsmart]

Mark, I have prepared two HQV discs & the score sheet mockup + score card should be ready after lunch.

Will drop over to your house this afternoon for your preview & test run. We'll catch up tomorrow 2pm to discuss further.

That's great! When is your Oppo 983 arriving? Have you confirmed that it has reached JAC NY?

[pchin]

That's great! When is your Oppo 983 arriving? Have you confirmed that it has reached JAC NY?

Later I'll check with JAC. Hopefully it's here na. 

[streetsmart]

pchin and jay2 were at my place last Saturday and we tested the HQV Calibration disc with several different set-ups. The calibration disc is pretty awesome. Its not that difficult to understand and it already has a point system. In fact, we already have a pretty good idea of the points of some players, including some that really surprised me. Secret pa. 

When Paul's Oppo 983 arrives, we'll have the shoot-out. We need volunteers to do the scoring. This will be a "sighted" test. Am not yet sure if this will be by consensus or each to his own. Please send me a PM if you are interested in being a volunteer.

[kalash]

Can you post some photos of the shootout test?

[streetsmart]

Can you post some photos of the shootout test?

No shootout yet. Just did some prelim testing. PS3, Pio, Panny BD30, Tosh HD-A35, DVDO VP50Pro

[kalash]

yes, I mean after doing the shootout test, can you post comparison images of all the different upscalers produces?