Author Topic: Audio power to room size ratio (Read 3167 times)

DViant · « **on:** Dec 27, 2002 at 07:41 PM »

Is there a way to compute for the appropriate wattage of AVR & speaker set you'd need based on the room size you have?

The room I'm planning to place my HT measures as W:10ft/14ft (irregular), L:17ft
& H:8ft

listener · « **Reply #1 on:** Dec 28, 2002 at 01:22 AM »

There are no hard rules when it comes to power to room size ratio although it wont hurt to have the highest amp power that you can afford even if it will be placed in a very small listening room. ....you can never have too much power

D75C · « **Reply #2 on:** Dec 28, 2002 at 06:09 AM »

I have a graph for that. I'll post it when I get hold of my audio book. But then again, you can never have too many watts as listener mentioned in his post.

tuff_u_gong · « **Reply #3 on:** Dec 29, 2002 at 01:05 AM »

Quote from: DViant on Dec 27, 2002 at 07:41 PM

Is there a way to compute for the appropriate wattage of AVR & speaker set you'd need based on the room size you have?

The room I'm planning to place my HT measures as W:10ft/14ft (irregular), L:17ft
& H:8ft

hey DViant!

noticed you're all over the AUDIO threads of late...after getting a great display monitor, it's obvious that you're now after the best audio setup to match.

i totally agree with listener with regard to amp power and room size. as for the speakers...hmmm...if you're not moving to a bigger room soon, generally speaking, i suppose bookshelf (vs. floorstanding) speakers will serve your purpose for the moment. i think the discrete channels won't be that distinct using big speakers given your room size.

again, if you're not moving to a bigger room soon, i don't think you need a discrete DTS-ES decoder yet either. so relatively more affordable AV receivers with DD, DTS-ES matrix and DOLBY PL II (which is very important for PS2 games, i think) would be enough.

just my two centavos worth

tuff

DViant · « **Reply #4 on:** Dec 29, 2002 at 03:40 AM »

Quote from: tuff_u_gong on Dec 29, 2002 at 01:05 AM

hey DViant!

noticed you're all over the AUDIO threads of late...after getting a great display monitor, it's obvious that you're now after the best audio setup to match.

i totally agree with listener with regard to amp power and room size. as for the speakers...hmmm...if you're not moving to a bigger room soon, generally speaking, i suppose bookshelf (vs. floorstanding) speakers will serve your purpose for the moment. i think the discrete channels won't be that distinct using big speakers given your room size.

again, if you're not moving to a bigger room soon, i don't think you need a discrete DTS-ES decoder yet either. so relatively more affordable AV receivers with DD, DTS-ES matrix and DOLBY PL II (which is very important for PS2 games, i think) would be enough.

just my two centavos worth

tuff

Hi tuff,

I wouldn't say it us a great display but one that is adequate for my unique needs. Alot of people say I paid too much for it and should have gotten a rear projection or bigger (but low quality direct view) but when they watch it they tend to want to stay and watch some more.

My current assault in these threads is out of lack of info on audio. I've been reading all the white papers, journals and articles I can find on the audio side of HT yet I feel I've barely scratched the surface. The audio threads really help me as you guys really know your stuff which I am really greatful for.

The logical progression to audio wasn't really intentional. What I had originally in mind was to reuse the old speakers and AVRs we had in the house and just buy a powered sub. Alas the loudspeakers are a decade or two old and aren't working properly anymore. I also got a couple of old NEC AVRs and an Onkyo that can only do Dolby Surround Pro Logic I. Pretty dated and inadequate in these days of DVDs and modern video consoles.

I then decided to go all out and do audio from scratch. What I have in mind is something appropriate for the room dimension I mentioned. I tend to follow the maxim of buying what you need and not what you want.

Saves you a lot of money and allows you to easily upgrade with minimal overall impact when the need arises again. Considering technology changes so fast this seems to be the most practical thing to do. That's what I've also learned from a few years involved in sound reinforcement for musical concerts.

Are bookshelf cheaper than floorstanding? Cause I could make room for the bigger speakers if they come out cheaper.

Only console that uses PLII's Nintendo's GameCube. The PS2 & Xbox are capable of outputing DD & DTS if the game were programed for it.

I'm currently eyeing the Denon AVR-1803 as the feature set suits my needs in regards to technology and power. All I need to decide now is what speakers are the best match for my room and AVR.

thanks,

DViant

greatbop · « **Reply #5 on:** Dec 29, 2002 at 11:53 AM »

^^ Future PS2 games will be supporting PLIIs btw, the next SaGa game (squaresoft, Romancig saga, i think).. Star Ocean 3, FFX-2... pretty muche very major ps2 game that will be squeezing out as much power that they can off the relatively weak console. (processing power, that is) .

GTA: vce city's just dts 4.1, so are ea games (ssx tricky).. etc.

anyway... as a rule of thumb... (well my estimates) 40- 80 watts are enough to power a book shelf that has up to 3 drivers... 80's good enough for that small floorstander .. and 100 up to 150 watts for the bigger floorstanders. these are for speakers costing on the mid fi side.. anything more than that.. the rules are pretty much changed.. dahil wattage ratings ng mga higher end amplifiers are much much more complicated na... and hi fi speakers definitely require hi fi amps...

don't base the power of the amp sa size ng room.. base your speaker sizes sa size ng room instead. and just get the proper wattage rating sa size ng speakers mo.

DViant · « **Reply #6 on:** Dec 29, 2002 at 12:43 PM »

Quote from: greatbop on Dec 29, 2002 at 11:53 AM

^^ Future PS2 games will be supporting PLIIs btw, the next SaGa game (squaresoft, Romancig saga, i think).. Star Ocean 3, FFX-2... pretty muche very major ps2 game that will be squeezing out as much power that they can off the relatively weak console. (processing power, that is) .

GTA: vce city's just dts 4.1, so are ea games (ssx tricky).. etc.

anyway... as a rule of thumb... (well my estimates) 40- 80 watts are enough to power a book shelf that has up to 3 drivers... 80's good enough for that small floorstander .. and 100 up to 150 watts for the bigger floorstanders. these are for speakers costing on the mid fi side.. anything more than that.. the rules are pretty much changed.. dahil wattage ratings ng mga higher end amplifiers are much much more complicated na... and hi fi speakers definitely require hi fi amps...

don't base the power of the amp sa size ng room.. base your speaker sizes sa size ng room instead. and just get the proper wattage rating sa size ng speakers mo.

Thanks for the intel on the games and speakers. When I make my inquiries about the AVR & speakers I also mention the dimension of my room so the dealers could offer me a package for my needs.

Sid6.7 · « **Reply #7 on:** Dec 30, 2002 at 02:30 AM »

Hi DViant! Because floorstanders take up much more space, bookshelf or smaller speakers will be perfect. And unless you consider the soundproof and acoustics of your room, don't get much power for your HT.
Just my opinion.

DViant · « **Reply #8 on:** Dec 31, 2002 at 01:53 PM »

Hi Guys,

Any idea on how much power I'd need if I get a room as big as this?

L: 20ft
W: 19ft
H: 8ft (note that it slopes down on both sides down to 3 feet)

greatbop · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 02:06 AM »

denon 3803 or marantz 7300 should be enough. another thing you have to consider is sa laki ng space na yun. How much lang ba ang listening area mo?

sa speakers... i recommend that you use 5 mid sized floorstanders (5.1) + center... dahil your sub will really need the help it can get.

DViant · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 02:49 AM »

Do you think I need that much power? The whole room'll probably be part of the listening area.

listener · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 03:17 AM »

Quote from: DViant on Jan 01, 2003 at 02:49 AM

Do you think I need that much power? The whole room'll probably be part of the listening area.

Dviant

the output of an amplifier doesnt always equate to loudness so getting the Denon or the Marantz that greatbop is suggesting wont insure that you would get that room filling sound for your given listening space. Your choice of speakers will play a great role in defining how loud a given amplifier will sound in a given space. If you choose efficient speakers (high sensitivity) you would be surprised with how loud these speakers can go even if driven by a moderately powered amplifier but if you choose speakers that are less efficient then you would need a lot more muscle to make them sound big.

Given the size of your room, if your budget is on the small side get efficient floorstanders (90db sensitivity and up) and a moderately powered amp (125 watts per channel) plus two subwoofers. That set up alone would be capable to rock your world. If budget would be enough to get seperates then go for it.

As I have said before, you can never have too much power in this hobby. It wouldnt hurt to get the most that you can afford when it comes to power.
More power = cleaner, low distortion sound.

choosing a system that sounds big and loud is very easy....setting up a system that can sound big, loud and with quality is a different matter altogether.

DViant · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 03:57 AM »

Quote from: listener on Jan 01, 2003 at 03:17 AM

If you choose efficient speakers (high sensitivity) you would be surprised with how loud these speakers can go even if driven by a moderately powered amplifier but if you choose speakers that are less efficient then you would need a lot more muscle to make them sound big.

How do you tell if the speaker you're getting have high sensitivity. Would you have examples of these?

Quote

Given the size of your room, if your budget is on the small side get efficient floorstanders (90db sensitivity and up) and a moderately powered amp (125 watts per channel) plus two subwoofers. That set up alone would be capable to rock your world. If budget would be enough to get seperates then go for it.

What does seperated mean?

Thanks for reminding of what a HT is supposed to do.

listener · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 12:46 PM »

Dviant
you can get a speakers sensitivity rating thru its spec sheet printed on the manual.

O/T: a receiver is a tuner/controller/processor with built in amplification in 1 single chassis right? the seperates naman are two components each with its own chassis and independent power supply...one component is the processor and one is a power amplifier. There are so many advantages in using seperates. I think there is a thread specifically for that.

DViant · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 01:01 PM »

listener,

what numerical value should I look for to know if the speaker is highly sensitive. Should it have a high or low numerical value?

do receivers have a mix of tuner/controller/processor with built in amplification and the ability for seperates?

audio_tyro · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 01:24 PM »

Quote from: DViant on Jan 01, 2003 at 01:01 PM

listener,

what numerical value should I look for to know if the speaker is highly sensitive. Should it have a high or low numerical value?

90dB and above is considered HIGH. Oftentimes, you can read this datum on the template stamped at the back of the speakers (together with its power handling capability and impedance).

greatbop · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 04:09 PM »

umm... b&w, energy, paradigm, missions, i am pretty sure na sensitivity nila's around 90s rin. except studio series, which are very power hungry.. what i had in mind when i said 'mid sized floorstanders' were Energy Connoisuer C5s or C7s. or Paradigm Monitor 7s or 5s..

DViant · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 01, 2003 at 04:47 PM »

Quote from: audio_tyro on Jan 01, 2003 at 01:24 PM

90dB and above is considered HIGH. Oftentimes, you can read this datum on the template stamped at the back of the speakers (together with its power handling capability and impedance).

So 90 to say 3000? I know the 3000 figure is a bit excessive but I want a clear picture what you're talkin about.

87dB's not considered high? Medium lang sila?

audio_tyro · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 02, 2003 at 04:51 PM »

Quote

Quote
So 90 to say 3000? I know the 3000 figure is a bit excessive but I want a clear picture what you're talkin about.

87dB's not considered high? Medium lang sila?

3000 is unreal. The highest sensitivity rating I've read is in the range of 110dB - 115dB. Here you will only need amplifier whose power rating is around 3 watts! I'm referring to Singe Ended Triode (tube) amps.

87dB is low-medium but still okay. 88dB is medium. 84dB is rather low, hence you need high powered amp (at least 100 watts) to drive them well. Usually, the smaller the speaker, the lower is the sensitivity too (directly proportional). Manufacturers deliberately do this to prevent anyone from blowing up such small speakers with high powered amps.

cyberaudionut · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 04, 2003 at 02:25 PM »

It also depends on the type of speakers - electrostats and ribbons are usually very inefficient compared to conventional, box speakers.

DViant · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 04, 2003 at 09:50 PM »

I've found out I have access to amps and speakers that can output 320watts/channel. I may go for the preamp processor setup as this seems to be the easiest and cheapest way to do this...

So anyone know of any preamp processors being sold that can do DD EX, DTS ES?

cyberaudionut · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 05, 2003 at 02:51 AM »

There are a lot of processors out there, some with more than just DTS-ES and DD EX. It depends on what your budget is. To give you an idea, here's a partial list:

$1K-$2K:
Outlaw Audio 950
Sherwood Newcastle P958
Rotel RSP-1066 (with DTS:NEO 6)
Atlantic Technology P-2000 (with DTS:NEO 6)

$2K-$3K:
NAD S150
B&K Reference 30, 50

$3K-$4K:
Lexicon DC-2 (with THX EX 7.1)
Krell Showcase (with THX EX 7.1 and DTS:NEO 6)
Cinepro DTC-10 (with DTS:NEO 6)
Aragon Stage One (with THX EX 7.1 and DTS:NEO 6)
Anthem AVM-20 (with THX EX 7.1)
ADA Cinema Rhapsody (with THX EX 7.1)

>$4K:
Tag McLaren AV32Rbp192
Simaudio Attraction 7.1
Proceed AVP2 (with THX EX 7.1)

slowhand · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 05, 2003 at 09:25 AM »

Quote from: cyberaudionut on Jan 04, 2003 at 02:25 PM

It also depends on the type of speakers - electrostats and ribbons are usually very inefficient compared to conventional, box speakers.

Yes! And aside from sensitivity you should also pay attention to impedance ratings. The typical box speaker would have 6 to 8 ohms. Most amplifier ratings specify power into 8 ohms.

Electrostats can go down to 2 ohms. Some ribbons go down to 1 ohm. The lower the impedance, the higher the power needed.

D75C · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 14, 2003 at 02:27 PM »

As promised here are the graphs. These graphs represent the relationship between louspeaker sensitivity, room size, room acoustics, and amplifier power output.

Most rooms are average, meaning there are some furnishings and fixtures like chairs, sofas, tables, carpet and curtains. Live rooms are totally untreated rooms, 4 walls of concrete or wood, no carpet, no curtain, strong reverberations. Dead rooms are of course the opposite of live.

These graphs are easy to understand. Feel free to download them. For your questions and comments mail me at [email protected]

Philander · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 14, 2003 at 03:01 PM »

D75C,

Sent you a PM.

philander

levi · « **Reply #25 on:** Apr 19, 2003 at 06:39 PM »

Kamote-Tops · « **Reply #26 on:** Nov 20, 2007 at 11:07 PM »