Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines

[m0b1u5]

God gave man the sign, yet many still do not believe.  Ano, isa pang sign ang ipapadala?  Useless din ... hindi pa rin maniniwala kahit padalhan ng isa pang sign ...  

This had also come to mind considering how humans think, people will still be in doubt if the manifestation is really from the divine One. Also, if everything is created, does our Creator also have a Creator?

[barrister]

Also, if everything is created, does our Creator also have a Creator?

No, the Creator does not have a creator. 

God is eternal.  He has always existed and He is not bound by time. 

The Bible puts it this way: " ... from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2)

[allanmandy]

and yet it was accepted by scientist as credible dating device, isn't it?

Too much carbon 14 in deep geologic strata.
With their short 5,700-year half-life, no carbon 14 atoms should exist in any carbon older than 250,000 years. Yet it has proven impossible to find any natural source of carbon below Pleistocene (Ice Age) strata that does not contain significant amounts of carbon 14, even though such strata are supposed to be millions or billions of years old. Conventional carbon 14 laboratories have been aware of this anomaly since the early 1980s, have striven to eliminate it, and are unable to account for it. Lately the world's best such laboratory which has learned during two decades of low-C14 measurements how not to contaminate specimens externally, under contract to creationists, confirmed such observations for coal samples and even for a dozen diamonds, which cannot be contaminated in situ with recent carbon.27 These constitute very strong evidence that the earth is only thousands, not billions, of years old.

I did mention that C-14 could be produced subterraneanly by bacteria and contamination from U-Th radioactivity of surrounding rocks, right? And again, carbon dating is only credible for 60,000 years or less materials. You seem to forget that there are other radioactive dating techniques that are able to determine much older ages than a few thousand years. "Proving" C-14 as anomalous is not enough to discredit all those other dating methods.

By the way, you guys might be interested in the following article. I haven't had the time to read it in its entirety but some of the points raised in this thread as arguments for creationism were answered in the said article:

"15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense"

[allanmandy]

If the creationist die and there is no God at all who created all these thingies ... what will they loose? Nada
If the evolutionist die and there is the God who created what we are debating .... what will they loose?

My logic tells me ... better safe than sorry!  ... how about the decision of lower life forms?

Hmm, I don't know. Something tells me God will not punish all those scientists (which includes me) for believing or accepting the theory of evolution. I'm quite certain our eternal salvation will depend not on our scientific beliefs but on how "righteously" we have lived our lives. I'd hate to think of God as vindictive towards people who at some point in their (early) life, found joy and fulfillment in science, unknowing that to the eyes of some fundamentalists, the path they chose would lead them to eternal damnation. Was I already destined to go to hell the moment I realized the rationality of the theory of evolution when I was 15 years old? Gosh, I seriously hope not.

[barrister]

By the way, you guys might be interested in the following article. I haven't had the time to read it in its entirety but some of the points raised in this thread as arguments for creationism were answered in the said article:

"15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense"

That debate will never end.  Here's a point-by-point answer from the Reason & Revelation magazine:

15 Answers to John Rennie and Scientific American’s Nonsense
by Bert Thompson, Ph.D. and Brad Harrub, Ph.D.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&cat=5&itemid=2093

[Klaus Weasley]

Creationists are kind of like people wanting 1 plus 1 to equal 4 and gets offended when someone else says it's really 2.

[indie boi]

If the creationist die and there is no God at all who created all these thingies ... what will they loose? Nada
If the evolutionist die and there is the God who created what we are debating .... what will they loose?

My logic tells me ... better safe than sorry!  ... how about the decision of lower life forms?

The implication here being, evolutionists will go to hell for not believing in Creation? Where in the Bible did it say that?

[RU9]

Im really missing the point of what's wrong with my question to RU9.

Its is annoying.

Hoping that you will be me, I complied.

So what do I get for my effort?

[barrister]

Creationists are kind of like people wanting 1 plus 1 to equal 4 and gets offended when someone else says it's really 2.

No, that's not true.  Don't think that all creationists are "Young Earth Creationists".  On the contrary, very few of them are.

Take the case of the Roman Catholic Church, which is creationist, yet has officially stated that faith and evolution are not in conflict.  

For Catholics, human evolution is not a matter of religious teaching, and must stand or fall on its own scientific merits.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church comments positively on the theory of evolution, which is neither precluded nor required by the sources of faith, stating that scientific studies "have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man."

Catholic schools teach evolution without controversy on the basis that scientific knowledge does not extend beyond the physical, and scientific truth and religious truth cannot be in conflict.

[jerix]

The implication here being, evolutionists will go to hell for not believing in Creation? Where in the Bible did it say that?

If its true, the evolutionist who does not believe Christ as the savior will go to hell and eventually feel the pain of being toasted eternally. The safest i think is just to believe that Christ can save you - thats all.  With all the discussions here, i am beginning to check on the bible and its nice..   More ideas please.

[barrister]

...  The safest i think is just to believe that Christ can save you - thats all.   ...

That's not Biblical.  

That's the American fast-food style: all you need to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and you're saved!  That's what you hear from the American Bible-thumpers and their Pinoy imitators.  

Sounds great, and it must have been a quick and easy way to recruit new members, but that's not how it works.  

James 2:14-26 clarifies that faith alone is not sufficient, because "faith without works is dead":



14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[jerix]

Ngeek ang hirap pala maligtas mukhang wala yatang maliligtas kung strikto masyado ang creator natin. Kasi naman libo ang religion dito sa mundo at lahat nito ay nagsasabing sila ang maliligtas sapagkat ang aral nila ang totoong aral na dapat sundin ng tao.

Di ba dapat pinapahiwatig nya directly sa atin kung saan tayo aanib na relihiyon?

Sa kin lang try ko na lang talaga na gumawa ng mabuti sa kapwa at paniwalaan na siya ang aking tagapagligtas. Kung mali ito siguro wala na akong magagawa. Naniniwala akong galing ako sa kanya at wala ng iba at kung susunugin nya ang kaluluwa ko, para na rin siguro nyang sinunog sarili nya-- pero paniniwala ko hindi naman nya ito gagawin dahil isa siyang maunawain na Diyos. 

[m0b1u5]

If its true, the evolutionist who does not believe Christ as the savior will go to hell and eventually feel the pain of being toasted eternally. The safest i think is just to believe that Christ can save you - thats all.  With all the discussions here, i am beginning to check on the bible and its nice..   More ideas please.

How about the non-Christians? Will they automatically go to hell when they die?  What if their God is the One not ours?

[JT]

Its is annoying.

Hoping that you will be me, I complied.

So what do I get for my effort?

Well, Im really sorry if it annoys anyone.  And the very reason I ask is because I want to reply. Now give me sometime to understand your principles of Objectivism to see how I can defend the BIBLE as the true Word of God and true moral standards.  

Di naman kasi dapat basta basta na lang sasagot or mag share from the BIBLE.  You need to ask wisdom from the Holy Spirit otherwise the Word of God is wasted.  And I had so much respect for the Word of God for it is holy. As Matthew 7:6  says “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you".



  

[JT]

How about the non-Christians? Will they automatically go to hell when they die?  What if their God is the One not ours?

For those who had not read the bible or heard the Word of God,  they will be judged accdg to the law.

So the question now for non-believer is, how do they measure up against the law?


 

[jerix]

Dennis I think that would be a tough question. But in reality it is a question that encompasses all religion on earth. The question on which is which is even a tougher question. Choice is based on luck and gut feel under the situation. But if still in doubt, just adopt what is common in all these groups and that is -- be good and nice to everybody - just think that what you sow is what you reap. These are not religious principles but universal that may apply to everybody. And still maybe, believe on the power of your God the one you believe in to save you. At least this gives you a peace of mind.

[JT]

Ngeek ang hirap pala maligtas mukhang wala yatang maliligtas kung strikto masyado ang creator natin. Kasi naman libo ang religion dito sa mundo at lahat nito ay nagsasabing sila ang maliligtas sapagkat ang aral nila ang totoong aral na dapat sundin ng tao.

Di ba dapat pinapahiwatig nya directly sa atin kung saan tayo aanib na relihiyon?

Sa kin lang try ko na lang talaga na gumawa ng mabuti sa kapwa at paniwalaan na siya ang aking tagapagligtas. Kung mali ito siguro wala na akong magagawa. Naniniwala akong galing ako sa kanya at wala ng iba at kung susunugin nya ang kaluluwa ko, para na rin siguro nyang sinunog sarili nya-- pero paniniwala ko hindi naman nya ito gagawin dahil isa siyang maunawain na Diyos. 

Now matter how many religion or denomination names there are only two types, 1st is Salvation by WORKS, 2nd Salvation by GRACE of GOD. The latter calls for personal relationship with God in which you are entrusting your life to Jesus as your Lord and Savior.  Salvation in itself is not so hard since its not by your effort,  hardest part is the WALKING by FAITH which will transform us into HIS new creation ... as a true BORN AGAIN.

What our generation has forgotten is that our God is both Father and King. As Father, He loves us and understand thats why HE is always willing to forgive. However as King,  HE needs to be revered and respected. And as He is a JUST ruler,  HE will punish those who disobey. All had fallen short to the KING's standard, we are all destined for punishment but because of HIS love, He made a way for our salvation which is thru our Lord Jesus Christ. Kaya "He is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one comes to the Father except thru Him."

Anyone wants to know more? Pls drop me a PM.

[barrister]

How about the non-Christians? Will they automatically go to hell when they die?

For those who had not read the bible or heard the Word of God,  they will be judged accdg to the law.

So the question now for non-believer is, how do they measure up against the law?

Non-Christians can also be saved, but they will be judged according to how they responded to their own conscience.

Jesus Christ is the path to salvation.  This means that you must obey the laws of Jesus Christ.  That's why He called Himself the way, the truth and the life.  

The laws of Jesus Christ are different from the laws of Moses.  For example:

Law of Moses: Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)

Law of Jesus: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:27-28)

Note the huge difference.  Under the laws of Moses, you must physically perform the act before you can be guilty of adultery.  Under the laws of Christ, just thinking about it is already adultery.  

The Bible defines sin as the "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).  However, even if you are not a Christian and you are not within Christ's laws, you still have a knowledge of right and wrong within you, and you will be judged according to the "law" implanted in your own conscience.

Romans 2:12-16 explains it this way:

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


===========================================



Nasa bibliya na ang mga sagot, mga kapatid.  Ang problema, hindi lang natin binabasa.

[devlin_waugh]

For those who had not read the bible or heard the Word of God,  they will be judged accdg to the law.

So the question now for non-believer is, how do they measure up against the law?

it works both ways...how do YOU measure up against THEIR belief/law is as valid as your statement about THEM not conforming to YOURS

in other religions you are the infidel and the non-believer

If you must really practice your faith then you'd realize that it was never about imposing yours on other people

[JT]

it works both ways...how do YOU measure up against THEIR belief/law is as valid as your statement about THEM not conforming to YOURS

in other religions you are the infidel and the non-believer

If you must really practice your faith then you'd realize that it was never about imposing yours on other people

U didnt get what I mean, imposing has nothing to do with it.  And I will never be measure up against other Religions law because Im not under their law.

For non-believer of Christianity, they will be judged accdg to the law both in their conscience and their written law. Lahat naman ng Religion telling their followers to do good. So how to they measure up within their standards is the basis.

For christians, they will be judged accdg to the Word of God.

[RU9]

Well, Im really sorry if it annoys anyone.  And the very reason I ask is because I want to reply. Now give me sometime to understand your principles of Objectivism to see how I can defend the BIBLE as the true Word of God and true moral standards.  

Di naman kasi dapat basta basta na lang sasagot or mag share from the BIBLE.  You need to ask wisdom from the Holy Spirit otherwise the Word of God is wasted.  And I had so much respect for the Word of God for it is holy. As Matthew 7:6  says “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you".

Why quote the Bible? You have not established it as the word of god? How can I believe it?

[m0b1u5]

For those who had not read the bible or heard the Word of God,  they will be judged accdg to the law.

So the question now for non-believer is, how do they measure up against the law?

Yup, exactly my point.  Do we really need religion to be saved?  Will it be enough that we have lived our lives righteously?

Nasa bibliya na ang mga sagot, mga kapatid.  Ang problema, hindi lang natin binabasa.

Agree, that's for us Christians.

[devlin_waugh]

U didnt get what I mean, imposing has nothing to do with it.  And I will never be measure up against other Religions law because Im not under their law.

For non-believer of Christianity, they will be judged accdg to the law both in their conscience and their written law. Lahat naman ng Religion telling their followers to do good. So how to they measure up within their standards is the basis.

For christians, they will be judged accdg to the Word of God.

so now religion/salvation is relative to every individual's faith...well then you don't have any business telling everyone how to run their lives if that's your point

imposing has all to do to it when you keep on telling people how to live their lives as if they don't know how or to assume that they don't know how...

[jerix]

Those who believe that JESUS CHRIST is the savior are called Christians. Right?

I ask because a group i know here in my office segregate themselves and called themselves Christians while they just call others as just plainly catholics or whatever.

[Compaq]

If its true, the evolutionist who does not believe Christ as the savior will go to hell and eventually feel the pain of being toasted eternally. The safest i think is just to believe that Christ can save you - thats all.  With all the discussions here, i am beginning to check on the bible and its nice..   More ideas please.

Jerix, that's the most sensible thing to do... if you're in doubt, then check it out

Nasa bibliya na ang mga sagot, mga kapatid.  Ang problema, hindi lang natin binabasa.

Mukhang yan nga problema ... So instead of reading other reference materials, why not check out the Bible itself? How much time do we spend surfing the internet? Watching movies? If you have a lot of questions regarding the integrity of the Bible, then spend time understanding it. Bawasan ng konti ang oras sa ibang gawain. You don't have to approach it in the context of religion... what's written in the Bible will speak for itself.

Those who believe that JESUS CHRIST is the savior are called Christians. Right?

I ask because a group i know here in my office segregate themselves and called themselves Christians while they just call others as just plainly catholics or whatever.

I think it's pretty much the same when catholics call the other group as "born-again yan" or "christian yan" ... ... or "muslim yan". Hindi naman maiwasan din na magsama-sama sila, since they understand each other, natural reaction na lang din siguro yun.


Cheers!!!
Compaq

[JT]

Those who believe that JESUS CHRIST is the savior are called Christians. Right?

I ask because a group i know here in my office segregate themselves and called themselves Christians while they just call others as just plainly catholics or whatever.

Its truly quite offensive and divisive.  Its like saying Catholics dont believe in Jesus or only so called Christians got the exclusivity of Jesus and Salvation.

But actually not all who believe that JESUS CHRIST is the lord and savior are TRUE CHRISTIANS and will be saved. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."

When you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you become BORN AGAIN and God will give you the understanding of His Kingdom. As written in John 3:3 "Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.”  This also explains why it is impossible to understand the full message of the bible unless you believe in it.

Then as BORN AGAIN, you still need to walk to enter Gods's Kingdom. as Paul says in Philippians 2:12 "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;".

In Ephesians 2:9 says, "Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it". Salvation is only by God's grace which also enables you to walk accdg to HIS will and enter His Kingdom. The reward for those who obeyed and did good works will have the CROWN of LIFE.

so now religion/salvation is relative to every individual's faith...well then you don't have any business telling everyone how to run their lives if that's your point

Well if its for me I will rather keep the good news of salvation for myself and my loved ones only. But Jesus commanded in Mark 16:15-16 "And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned."  So walang personalan,  sumusunod lang po sa ako sa utos. 

imposing has all to do to it when you keep on telling people how to live their lives as if they don't know how or to assume that they don't know how...

Everyone wanted to draw the line between FORUM, IMPOSING and DISCUSSING. Its better to let the MODS be the judge of what can and cannot be posted.

Hi Mods,
Pls advise. Thanks.

[devlin_waugh]

Well if its for me I will rather keep the good news of salvation for myself and my loved ones only. But Jesus commanded in Mark 16:15-16 "And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned."  So walang personalan,  sumusunod lang po sa ako sa utos. 

good for you then...no speak, no slave...

[jerix]

Its truly quite offensive and divisive.  Its like saying Catholics dont believe in Jesus or only so called Christians got the exclusivity of Jesus and Salvation.

Yes - you hit it right! kaya i always correct anybody calling them Christians, kasi it will brand others who are not members of that sect as non Christ believers.

[nels76]

Napunta na sa Bible ang usapan. Buklatan na ng mga verse. 

Ingat kayo at baka pasukin tayo ng INC or ADD dito at mahamon tayo sa diskusyon.

[indie boi]

I'm curious. How do you reconcile this...

Di naman kasi dapat basta basta na lang sasagot or mag share from the BIBLE.  You need to ask wisdom from the Holy Spirit otherwise the Word of God is wasted.  And I had so much respect for the Word of God for it is holy. As Matthew 7:6  says “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you".

And this...

Well if its for me I will rather keep the good news of salvation for myself and my loved ones only. But Jesus commanded in Mark 16:15-16 "And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned."  So walang personalan,  sumusunod lang po sa ako sa utos.