Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines

[av_phile1]

This is a good read ... and quite presented in a readable manner!

Amusing is the establishment of "First Church of Christ of the Big Bang"   


So Science validates the Bible, and the Bible supports Science ... and mere theories will not pass the validation of both Bible & Science!


Thanks for the link    ... though sometime sounds high falluting (to me at first), the reading is really an interesting one. Indeed, bolstering creation, combined with the findings of Institute of Creation Science.

The article reminded me of the saying in Pilipino:  "gaano man kalayo ang procession, sa simbahan did ang bagsak."

There's also this anecdote about a man in search of the truth, leaving his home elders after not getting satisfactory answers, roaming the world only to end up finding the truth back home. 

[sardaukar]

Me, I like this quote from George Bernard Shaw:

"All great truths begin as blasphemies."

[av_phile1]

I doubt if he told that to his Maker when he finally met Him.

[sardaukar]

I don't see what that has to do with the quote. He was referring to advances in science that were considered blasphemous before time and more open minds made them acceptable. Like for example Galileo.

[av_phile1]

I know what he meant. I was just commenting in zest directly on the quote outside of its relevance to anything.  

[Clondalkin]

All these readings make me want to re-watch that fascinating (fictional) movie called The Man From Earth.   

[choy]

Don't you think it's a tad more admirable that a person still does good things and is a good person despite the fact he doesn't believe in heaven or hell? I mean, who is better? Someone who believes in God but does good things only because he fears punishment (hell) and desires reward (heaven) or someone who does not believe in God but still does good things because he wants to be good and he wants to be good to people period.

If you believe that the second person goes to hell and first one goes to heaven, then you believe in a petty, vain God. I don't believe in that God.

this is the wrong philosophical approach to the whole heaven and hell thing

a lot of people claim that we do good to be rewarded, and when evil is done we are punished.  but liken the fires of hell to the fire of a candle.  you tell your child not to play with the candle or else he will get burned.  is getting burned by the flame of the candle a threat or punishment?  no, its a consequence of playing with fire.

good and evil are not two separate things where you can do each one independently.  they are opposite sides of the spectrum.  its either your work is evil or good, there is no neutral state.  its like light vs. dark.  and if you choose dark, you suffer the consequence of being in the dark

you do good because if you don't do good, you're doing evil.  and a consequence of evil is hell.  its as simple as that.  we are given the knowledge that by doing good we go to heaven because that is what we need for our soul to live forever.  its not a bribe.  when you don't play with the candle, you get to enjoy its light safely.

[tigkal]

Good and Evil.. No shades of gray?Here is a scenario. You have a terrorist wherein either you torture him to locate the bomb, or no torture, but thousands get killed in the process. What is the good or evil thing to do?

[Klaus Weasley]

Good and Evil.. No shades of gray?Here is a scenario. You have a terrorist wherein either you torture him to locate the bomb, or no torture, but thousands get killed in the process. What is the good or evil thing to do?

You watch 24 too much!

LOL. Most terrorism experts will tell you that such a scenario very, very, very seldom happens.

[dpogs]

in the eyes of God, we are all equal : "we are all sinners".

there is none righteous, no not one.

even good works cannot please God.

[Klaus Weasley]

in the eyes of God, we are all equal : "we are all sinners".

there is none righteous, no not one.

even good works cannot please God.

In your view of heaven and God, dpogs, I have to say that there are probably more interesting and fun people in Hell than there are in Heaven since a lot of the people I admire (writers, directors, artists of all shapes and forms) are all humungous sinners: They're atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, drunks, drug addicts, womanizers, etc. I'd much rather hang out with William Shakespeare, George Carlin, Freddie Mercury, Luis Bunuel, etc. than say, Cardinal Sin or Jerry Falwell.

[dpogs]

In your view of heaven and God, dpogs, I have to say that there are probably more interesting and fun people in Hell than there are in Heaven since a lot of the people I admire (writers, directors, artists of all shapes and forms) are all humungous sinners: They're atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, drunks, drug addicts, womanizers, etc. I'd much rather hang out with William Shakespeare, George Carlin, Freddie Mercury, Luis Bunuel, etc. than say, Cardinal Sin or Jerry Falwell.

hmmm... maybe or maybe not.

but i tell you... self righteous (in the eyes of men) seems hard to find forgiveness that those who are "homongous" sinners.

[av_phile1]

In your view of heaven and God, dpogs, I have to say that there are probably more interesting and fun people in Hell than there are in Heaven since a lot of the people I admire (writers, directors, artists of all shapes and forms) are all humungous sinners: They're atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, drunks, drug addicts, womanizers, etc. I'd much rather hang out with William Shakespeare, George Carlin, Freddie Mercury, Luis Bunuel, etc. than say, Cardinal Sin or Jerry Falwell.

LOL, as if erudition and great earthly works are an excuse to slight the hand that created you.  None of them will matter to a God that created billions of stars in the universe.   Funny thing thing is, they don't even matter to Satan. Because all he wants to see are souls of God's creation burning in the pits of eternal damnation like him.  

[choy]

in the eyes of God, we are all equal : "we are all sinners".

there is none righteous, no not one.

even good works cannot please God.

whats your basis on making the statement?

there are lots of basis where God have found and chosen righteous people (Noah, Abraham, Mary, etc.)

[choy]

In your view of heaven and God, dpogs, I have to say that there are probably more interesting and fun people in Hell than there are in Heaven since a lot of the people I admire (writers, directors, artists of all shapes and forms) are all humungous sinners: They're atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, drunks, drug addicts, womanizers, etc. I'd much rather hang out with William Shakespeare, George Carlin, Freddie Mercury, Luis Bunuel, etc. than say, Cardinal Sin or Jerry Falwell.

problem is, heaven or hell is not a hanging out place.  its not Glorietta or Megamall or MOA

from the descriptions of hell in religious revelations, i don't think you'll have a chance of "hanging out" with anyone should you and that other person be in hell

[dpogs]

whats your basis on making the statement?

there are lots of basis where God have found and chosen righteous people (Noah, Abraham, Mary, etc.)

there is a difference between righteous (in the eyes of men) than righteous before God.

my answer to what is a true Christian (sent you a personal message).

[choy]

there is a difference between righteous (in the eyes of men) than righteous before God.

my answer to what is a true Christian (sent you a personal message).

you said there is none righteous.  but God Himself has found those i mentioned as righteous, and many more

if God did not find Noah righteous, he would have perished in the flood as well and humanity would have ended

if God did not find Abraham righteous, He would not have made a covenant with him

if God did not find Mary righteous, she would not have bore His Son

so they are found righteous by God, not by man

[Klaus Weasley]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7189188/Atheists-just-as-ethical-as-churchgoers.html

[av_phile1]

Devoid of any religious exposure, the natural man has a differentiating  instinct for what is good and bad.  Because even animals have some rudimentary instinct for it.  They protect their families and their siblings, and help each other out in a society because man is by nature a social animal who must live in herds, which is inherently good.  And they know the anquish and pain of being violated, raped and deprived or losing a loved one from murder, so they know what is bad.  The golden rule has been well-known independent of any religion.  In fact, tribes who have never had any religious exposure, are known to have codified a normative set of rules defining what is good and bad and assumed religious dimensions and comes with punishment when violated.  Ancient civilizations flourished because of these sets of rules that became both secular law and religion.  

But that is not the same as actively denying  Divine revelation that Moses, Abraham and Jesus Christ left behind.  The knowledge of God as revealed by Christ cannot be denied.  People who are just but have not heard of Christ or are withheld the knowledge of God  may be forgiven and their good works acknowledged.  But when the knowledge of Christ is made known to you, whether in school or elsewhere and you now repudiate it and deny it,  preferring instead to be an atheist or agnostic, that's another matter.  Because then, you become guilty of the sin of Apostasy.   Even if you do good works, they cannot erase the sin.  Because all good works made in the name of God glorify Him.  Good works made outside of HIM glorify only man.   And all good works made in thoughtful denial of God amount to nothing for your eternal salvation.  Denying God when you already learned about HIM is a violation of the First Commandment because you are now turning your back on Him.  And violating the First Commandment makes upholding the rest worthless in His eyes no matter what you do.  

  

[oweidah]

paano naman ang ibang relihiyon?

feb2010 world population 6.8billion+

from>
http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html

*christianity (catholics 1.1B/ protestants 382M/ independents 433M orthodox anglicansetc..)
*islam (sunni & shiites ~1.4B)
*hinduism (~876M)
*judaism (~15M)
*buddhism (386M
*chinese universists(~386M)
etc

sino kaya ang pupunta sa heaven?

__
di ba sa middle east nag-umpisa ang christianity, islam at judaism? tatlong relihiyong nag-ugat kay abraham. tatlong relihyong nag-aaway at laging may giyera/ patayan.

samantalang ang mga buddhists taoists shinto hindus atbp na base sa asia ay tahimik na nananampalataya sa mga relihiyon at Diyos nila.

bakit kaya ganyan ang ibang mga relihiyon? pag kaiba ka, di ka na go sa heaven!  

noong panahon ng "crusade" pinapatay ng mga kristiano ang kalaban sa ngalan ng relihiyon. ganun din ang mga islamic fundamentalist fanatics sa mga "infidels"...

[dpogs]

How about other religion or belief...


Dito na pumapasok ang : Ignorantia legis neminem excusat

[Arulco]

Naging christian convention ata itong thread na ito. 

Ignorance of a world outside of christianity/religion is no excuse for unfair prejudice and discrimination.

[dorian_gray]

There is an atheist group in UP. Though I am not one of them, I really enjoyed listening to them and enjoying the thought that maybe the inherent goodness of man is enough to make this world a peaceful place for everyone.

[dorian_gray]

and everything else is unnecessary.

[sardaukar]

But when the knowledge of Christ is made known to you, whether in school or elsewhere and you now repudiate it and deny it,  preferring instead to be an atheist or agnostic, that's another matter.  Because then, you become guilty of the sin of Apostasy.   Even if you do good works, they cannot erase the sin.  Because all good works made in the name of God glorify Him.  Good works made outside of HIM glorify only man.   And all good works made in thoughtful denial of God amount to nothing for your eternal salvation.  Denying God when you already learned about HIM is a violation of the First Commandment because you are now turning your back on Him.  And violating the First Commandment makes upholding the rest worthless in His eyes no matter what you do.  
  

I think ojof00l's question is a fair one.

Reminds me of this joke:

A man goes to Heaven and is welcomed in by Saint Peter, who gives him the standard tour. When they come to a part of Heaven that seems to be walled off from the rest, Peter turns to the new arrival and whispers, "We have to be very quiet around this wall, because of the people on the other side."
"Who's on the other side?"
"The [insert name of religious group here]."
"Why do we have to be quiet?"
"They think they're the only ones here."

[av_phile1]

Maybe.  

But you'll never know until you get there.  



If God doesn't care about religions, then that's just fine.  You do what you think is right and you lose nothing.

But what if He does?  What if He revealed the true religion in Christ?


Are you willing to gamble your eternal soul on a mere joke? 

[dpogs]

paano naman ang ibang relihiyon?

feb2010 world population 6.8billion+

from>
http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html

*christianity (catholics 1.1B/ protestants 382M/ independents 433M orthodox anglicansetc..)
*islam (sunni & shiites ~1.4M)
*hinduism (~876M)
*judaism (~15M)
*buddhism (386M
*chinese universists(~386M)
etc

sino kaya ang pupunta sa heaven?

__
di ba sa middle east nag-umpisa ang christianity, islam at judaism? tatlong relihiyong nag-ugat kay abraham. tatlong relihyong nag-aaway at laging may giyera/ patayan.

samantalang ang mga buddhists taoists shinto hindus atbp na base sa asia ay tahimik na nananampalataya sa mga relihiyon at Diyos nila.

bakit kaya ganyan ang ibang mga relihiyon? pag kaiba ka, di ka na go sa heaven!  

noong panahon ng "crusade" pinapatay ng mga kristiano ang kalaban sa ngalan ng relihiyon. ganun din ang mga islamic fundamentalist fanatics sa mga "infidels"...

indeed... Satan is very successful to draw away our attention to what we called a very simple plan of salvation to mankind.

instilling in our mind that religion only matters...
making our own religion better than the others...
diverting our mind to false science...
making us believe that there is no God...
making us believe that we are gods...
conditioned us to believe that in order to go to heaven we must do good works...
conditioned us to believe that what Jesus Christ did on the cross of calvary is not enough for salvation...
confusing us what the real meaning of "Christianity"...
telling your mind that this post is absurd, idiotic, out of this world, and nonsense...


ang mundo na ito ay punong puno ng mga edukadong tao, matatalino, marurunong sa larangan ng Bibliya... we have our own interpretation of The Bible, we are so wise enough to neglect that salvation is indeed very simple to obtain...

"we are professing to be wise, we become fools".

[barrister]

If God doesn't care about religions, then that's just fine.  You do what you think is right and you lose nothing.

But what if He does?  What if He revealed the true religion in Christ?

The non-believers will be judged according to their conscience.  

The Bible mentions condemnation for non-believers, but those non-believers are the kind who heard and understood the Gospel, yet knowingly and willfully rejected it.  

This principle is explained in the story of Jesus healing a blind man, where Jesus condemns the Pharisees not for the sole reason that they had no faith, but because they have heard Jesus' message, which they they knew in their hearts to be true, yet they still rejected Christ:

Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.  (John 9:39-41, NIV)

Notice that Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin".  So, the secular principle of "ignorance of the law excuses no one" does not apply to Christianity.

Similarly, St. Paul explains that those who do not have God's law can still have a chance for salvation, because they will be judged not according to the law, but according to their conscience:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.  (Romans 2:12-16, NIV)


Kaya hindi ako naniniwala sa sinasabi ng ibang relihiyon na pag hindi ka raw nila miyembro, sigurado na raw na sa impiyerno ka pupunta.

[oweidah]

Kaya hindi ako naniniwala sa sinasabi ng ibang relihiyon na pag hindi ka raw nila miyembro, sigurado na raw na sa impiyerno ka pupunta.

amen! yan lagi ang panakot nila 

[av_phile1]

The non-believers will be judged according to their conscience.  

The Bible mentions condemnation for non-believers, but those non-believers are the kind who heard and understood the Gospel, yet knowingly and willfully rejected it.  

This principle is explained in the story of Jesus healing a blind man, where Jesus condemns the Pharisees not because they had no faith, but because they have heard Jesus' message, which they they knew in their hearts to be true, yet they still rejected Christ:

Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.  (John 9: 39-41, NIV)

Notice that Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin".  So, the secular priciple of "ignorance of the law excuses no one" does not apply to Christianity.

Similarly, St. Paul explains that those who do not have God's law can still have a chance for salvation, because they will be judged not according to the law, but according to their conscience:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.  (Romans 2:12-16, NIV)

Exactly, if you are "blind" and have not heard of Christ, your conscience can be your salvation.  But if you've been exposed to Christ yet turn your back on him, that's when you sin.