Author Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines  (Read 84894 times)

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Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #540 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 04:52 PM »
you cannot use this argument since wala pang nakakita ng evolution (while they are in a transitional or evolution state)... or even wala pang nakakita ng big bang theory...
Sir, wala ring nakakita nang first 7 days of Creation, as told in Genesis.

Wala ring nakakakita nang kuryente. Wala ring nakakita nang X-rays at UV light. Wala ring nakaka-alam nang exact na value nang pi.

And to recap, speciation has been observed. Mutation has been observed. Genetics and heredity are generally well-understood. Survival of the fittest occurs even in non-biological systems.

Is it possible that some things, even though we can't sense them or know them in an epistemological sense, are more plausible than others, because they are supported by other observations, data, experiments, and other bodies of knowledge?

Just because no one can say, "I was there when this photon left this distant star hundreds of years ago and traveled hundreds of light years to get here" doesn't mean they can't calculate the distance to that star (using triangulation), and, knowing the speed of light, determine its minimum age.

Unless, of course, you claim that the speed of light is not constant, in which case your model of physics intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

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Please confirm. I am still confuse... does atheist believe that everything came from nothing?
Atheists stand for one thing: There is no evidence of any god.
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2010 at 05:26 PM by alistair »

Offline CMac

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #541 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 05:27 PM »
If God made it easy for us to believe that he exists then there's no more reason for 'choice' and free thinking. God is too infinite for our diminutive minds to comprehend and understand. And I believe that!

Our brain should've just been programmed to accept only True and False commands if all we require is proof to understand.

That's why I love the movie 'Matrix'. Morpheus believed in Neo. And in the end, Zion was saved. ;D



Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #542 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 05:48 PM »
And what is the atheist's explanation of the "origin of everything"?



Sir, as i said... we cannot use the argument of 

porket di natin nakita ang isang bagay ay hindi na ito nag-eexist...


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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #543 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 07:46 PM »
In the wild, too, sir.

Also, there are three things you conclude from speciation, which are orthogonal and can be addressed independently.

deliberate concious design: I don't see the connection, sir. Speciation can happen simply when a population is isolated, say, in an island. No need to invoke 'design'.


Yes, its part of the adaptability and resiliency that's designed into the genetic structure of living things that allows them to adapt to their surroundings. That makes the design no less a masterpiece of the one Creator who not only designed individual living things but also made sure the design allows them to adapt to their surroundings..  Now if only man can create a computer than can replicate itself and adapt to the changes in its environment.  Maybe soon enough.

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a creator: Again, sir, I don't see the need to jump to conclusions. If organic, self-replicating compounds can be created in a lab, does that constitute proof of a Creator?

Oh very clearly.  The fact that you need a lab to CREATE it, then it must have a CREATOR.    It couldn't happen spontaneously or by chance.  There's a deliberate conscious design.    The fact that as simple as creating in a lab  requires lab technician to CREATE one, how much more about a more complex and complete human being?  or even a plant.  It could not have come into being without some intervention of an intelligence billions of times more powerful than a lab technician.

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Sir, complexity can emerge from systems with relatively simple rules. See emergence.

I think that transistors clustering into an Intel chip by chance in a billion years has about the same likelihood as amoebas clustering into a salamander over a billion years.

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In fact, I'm even willing to believe the anthropic principle and the Clockwork Universe Theory, where a Creator could have simply created the Universe with its existing properties and physical laws, setting in motion everything that eventually led to galactic, solar system, planetary formation, abiogenesis, then evolution, then you and me posting on this thread.

Yup, but even that requires some kind of design.  The big bang theory supports the creation.  Everything before and after that was part of a masterplan.  Even looking at the simplest element in the universe, the hydrogen atom reveals a design so precise that if you so much as reduce by 2% or make stronger by 3/10 of 1% the nuclear forces between the neutron and the proton,  there would no life at any time in the universe.

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But it doesn't have be "conscious, deliberate design."

Perhaps, but it works both ways, it also doesn't have to be by chance.  Between the two, I prefer the simpler possibility of a creator designing me rather than adhering to the statistical improbability I came from a monkey by natural selection or random genetic mutation.

« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2010 at 08:06 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #544 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 08:54 PM »
Yes, its part of the adaptability and resiliency that's designed into the genetic structure of living things that allows them to adapt to their surroundings.
The adaptability and resiliency of the genetic structure is necessary since if life didn't adapt, it would've died out. That's exactly the whole point of natural selection.

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Oh very clearly.  The fact that you need a lab to CREATE it, then it must have a CREATOR.
My statement was in response to you saying that just because speciation is observed in the lab, then there must be intelligent design behind it.

That's like saying, "We threw a ton of of organic chemicals in a soup and we got a bunch of self-replicating amino acids" means "There must be intelligent design behind amino acids." There is a chemical order to their molecular structure, yes. Conscious, deliberate design, not necessarily.

Or, I throw a bunch of iron filings on a cardboard and some of them clumped together along magnetic lines means there must be intelligent design behind their arrangement. There is an order to their arrangement, yes. Conscious, deliberate design, not necessarily.

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I think that transistors clustering into an Intel chip by chance in a billion years has about the same likelihood as amoebas clustering into a salamander over a billion years.
First, again, not by chance. By selection.

Second, yes, we went from lower life forms to higher life forms in about as much time, maybe not a billion years, but in that time frame.

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Even looking at the simplest element in the universe, the hydrogen atom reveals a design so precise that if you so much as reduce by 2% or make stronger by 3/10 of 1% the nuclear forces between the neutron and the proton,  there would no life at any time in the universe.
That's the anthropic principle. The counter to that, of course, is that we cannot be certain there won't be life in the universe if the fundamental constants or laws were changed.

There won't be life as we know it, definitely. It may be barren, yes, or life may just evolve just as naturally according to the laws of that universe.

Consider underwater volcanic vents. No one could've imagined an environment more hostile. Yet, as it turns out, they're teeming with life, perfectly adapted to that environment. In fact, some scientists think that these may have been the birthplace of organic life on Earth.

Now, if, for example, the Earth had more silicon than carbon, then I wouldn't be surprised if we had turned out as sapient, silicon-based life forms instead. If our atmosphere was methane, then maybe we'd be breathing methane.

So, Intelligent Design is not necessary to explain the presence of life attuned perfectly to its environment—because that's the nature of Life, if it exists, it's bound to be shaped by its environment.

I think a better argument might be that a life form so badly adapted for its environment, but it's there, thriving. Like, if we found fish living on the Moon, with no other life forms present. I'd be hard-pressed to come up with any other explanation than somebody or something else put them there, on purpose.

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Between the two, I prefer the simpler possibility of a creator designing me rather than adhering to the statistical improbability I came from a monkey by natural selection or random genetic mutation.
Actually, sir, I think it's quite easy to see complexity emerge from simple interactions and initial conditions. Coupled with evolution and natural selection, and given enough time, I think it's inevitable that sapient life will emerge.

But in that scenario God doesn't even have to consciously design or shape everything along the way. All God needs to do is set the initial conditions to make it so that eventually, humans evolve, acquire intelligence, and naturally start wondering about God. In this worldview, there is no conflict between science and Deism, or Theism (in general), or even Agnosticism.

God -> Universe -> emergence -> Life can be a coherent, rational statement, but, to turn it around and say
Life -> God doesn't necessarily follow (A -> B doesn't mean B -> A).

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #545 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 08:56 PM »
and what is the atheist's view on the 'origin of all things'?

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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #546 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 09:02 PM »
and what is the atheist's view on the 'origin of all things'?



Iba-iba. You can use all creation theories, tanggalin mo lang yung "God" aspect.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #547 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 09:14 PM »
i mean... if atheist doesnt believe in God as Creator of all things...

then... atheist believe that everythings else came out from 'nothing'.


or everything else was created without Creator (is this the same analogy : invention without the inventor)


Iba-iba. You can use all creation theories, tanggalin mo lang yung "God" aspect.

creation theories without the idea of God or Creator???

« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2010 at 09:31 PM by dpogs »
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #548 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 09:39 PM »
Ganito, gamitin ko yung Big Bang. Nagsimula sa singularity. Tapos itatanong mo kung san nagsimula yung singularity? Ang sagot mo, ke God, tama?

Ngayon, tanungin kita, san nagsimula si God? Sabihin mo, wala kasi sa kanya nagsimula. Di na kailangan ng isa pang creator.

Ganun din argument ng mga atheists. Na sa singularity nagsimula. Di na kailangan ng isa pang creator.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #549 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:06 PM »
Ganito, gamitin ko yung Big Bang. Nagsimula sa singularity. Tapos itatanong mo kung san nagsimula yung singularity? Ang sagot mo, ke God, tama?

Ngayon, tanungin kita, san nagsimula si God? Sabihin mo, wala kasi sa kanya nagsimula. Di na kailangan ng isa pang creator.

Ganun din argument ng mga atheists. Na sa singularity nagsimula. Di na kailangan ng isa pang creator.

Correct. because Creator or God is the Alpha and the Omega.



I just can believe how the atheist believe that 'singularity' was just there... out from nothing.

is that is the kind of belief what they called scientific belief based on theory, observation, and evidence.

Isn't it a great example of great leap of faith.

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Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #550 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:06 PM »
creation theories without the idea of God or Creator???
Maybe the more appropriate term is cosmogeny.

But yes, there are various creation myths that don't have the conventional (Christian) notion of God as Creator.

In fact, even in numerous theistic creation myths the Universe merely existed, with no further explanation, before any god or gods.

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #551 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:14 PM »
Quote
I just can believe how the atheist believe that 'singularity' was just there... out from nothing.
I just can't believe how the Theist believes that God was just there... out of nothing.

Or, before you counter with the Cosmological argument about the First Cause—where does it say that the First Cause has to be the conventional notion of God?

Even if we accept the premise that something with no cause must have caused everything else, there's nothing there that says the first cause has to be God.

It could just be that—a singularity as the First Cause, an "uncaused cause", something that exists by necessity, exempt from causality.

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Isn't it a great example of great leap of faith.
No more than a Creator God, and, with the rest of the cosmological and evolutionary story, many times more plausible than Genesis and a young earth.

Offline Arulco

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #552 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:27 PM »
No atheist is claiming that they know everything came from nothing or otherwise.

Isn't one of the reasons why scientists and researchers are studying the cosmos is to find out how the universe came to be? They still don't have a concrete answer but at least they're working on it scientifically. It is something that is yet to be discovered.


On a side note, we're seeing a continuing effort by the Vatican to work things out with science rather than against it in order to stay relevant with the times....and ensure its survival.

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Asked about the Catholic Church's condemnation four centuries ago of the Italian astronomer and physicist, Galileo, Father Funes diplomatically says mistakes were made, but it is time to turn the page and look towards the future.

Science and religion need each other, and many astronomers believe in God, he assures readers.

To strengthen its scientific credentials, the Vatican is organising a conference next year to mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of the author of the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7399661.stm
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:45 PM by °BSΩLE†e »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #553 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:48 PM »
Now it makes sense... that Atheism is not just about science... it is also another kind of religion or profession of faith without the notion of Mighty Creator.

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Offline Arulco

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #554 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:52 PM »
Atheists don't believe in god/gods and have no religion. Simple as that.

Skepticism is a common trait among atheists though.
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:54 PM by °BSΩLE†e »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #555 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 10:53 PM »
may mga witnesses din naman ang bible
it wasn't written in a dark cave and no one attested to it

all the apostles attested that Jesus was real, that he in fact lived, was crucified, died, and resurrected.  and even after torture and to their last dying breath, not one of them retracted their statement.  thats a pretty powerful statement on how factual their testimony is

Peter denied Jesus three times.
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Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #556 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:07 PM »
Atheism is not just about science... it is also another kind of religion or profession of faith
Sir, unless you happen to like sounding absurd, you might want to look up the definition of religion, and faith as it pertains to religion.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #557 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:09 PM »
it is not a religion, it is not a sect, is it a cult?
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Offline Arulco

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #558 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:16 PM »
Nope. If you're really interested in atheists, I suggest you go beyond asking questions here and read books about the topic. Oh and by the way, google is your friend.

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #559 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:20 PM »
it is not a religion, it is not a sect, is it a cult?
Are you asking sincerely, or are you just being obstinate (and purposefully dense)?
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:23 PM by alistair »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #560 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:44 PM »
im not an atheist so i just dont know where to categorize the atheist. or they just stand as an atheist.

kasi my personal belief, atheist is another form of religion since it requires faith, since it is not a religion definitely it is not a sect, isa na lang ang natitira... kulto.... and if it is not a kulto...

maybe i just let myself be satisfied sa sagot ni Sir Obsulete.
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Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #561 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:54 PM »
but then again... it is a religion... because it is a set of belief...
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Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #562 on: Feb 18, 2010 at 11:54 PM »
I see. You can't be bothered to use a search engine and read. Good night to you, sir.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #563 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 12:10 AM »
I am right in the first place that Atheist is a religion... because what you believe about God is that there is no God. and to reinforce your belief about God you embrace evolution that further makes you a religion.


A person's religion is the sum total of his beliefs about God and the supernatural. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the three largest "monotheistic" religions, with belief one God, Creator Of The Universe.

Some religions are "polytheistic," with belief in many gods, each with different functions.

Atheism is the religion whose belief about God is that there is no God.

Some Atheists, for their own political reasons, assert that Atheism is not a religion but instead is the total absence of religion. This allows them to spread their Atheistic beliefs freely in societies which insist on "separation of church and state."

But this is like saying that "black," (which physicists define as the total absence of color) is not a color. A few years ago, the car I drove was a big, old Chevrolet, whose color was black. In common practice throughout the world, "black" is understood to be a color, despite the technical definition of the physicists. Likewise, "Atheism" is a religion, despite any technical definitions to the contrary.

If black is a color, then Atheism is a religion.

    A United States Federal Court of Appeals has now ruled ruled that Atheism is, indeed, a religion, under U.S. law. See http://www.google.com/search?&q=atheism+religion+court+rule&btnG=Search for details.
« Last Edit: Feb 19, 2010 at 12:13 AM by dpogs »
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #564 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 12:35 AM »
Existence of God need no proof since it is very evident in our life. Millions of people experienced how God works in their life. How God change them from worst to a better person. How God manifest on them by their works.

The whole universe display that there is a Creator who created everything. Mighty creator who perfectly put all the planets in their proper orbits. Engineered a fully functional brain and body and not only that He put soul into it thus giving us life, free will and rational thinking.

It only takes a simple faith to know and felt HIS presence in this world. Faith that will give you life eternally.

How hard to believe in this? How hard to believe that there is God? It is not hard. It just takes faith.

We cannot put our life in chance. There must be an assurance.




It is easier to believe that life existed because it was given by God than to believe that life existed because it happened by chance.

It is easier to believe that our body was created in perfection than to believe that it undergoes evolution by chance.



Why still seeking for an answer on how life begin in this world? Why wait billion years when we just more or less 60 yrs? why still seeking and waiting kung saan puwede naman tayong maniwala na lang, it only takes faith.


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Offline choy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #565 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 12:58 AM »
Peter denied Jesus three times.

and yet he died for Jesus
despite persecution and torture which led to his eventual death, Peter never turned away from Jesus, proclaiming He is God and Savior to his last breath

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #566 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 12:59 AM »
My original question for the YEC was this: How can we believe anything scientists say if they can get the age of the earth so very very very wrong?

To expound further, the age of the earth is so ingrained in practically all brances of science (from cosmology, astronomy, geology down to biology)--who pretty much all agree that the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years--that if you don't accept that age as true how can you accept anything else they say?

no, it is not ingrained in all aspects of science

do you even know how do they come up with the age?

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #567 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 01:10 AM »
choy,

If someone in your office told you he turned water into wine, rose from the dead, would you believe the guy? Assuming he did, he would need to document the whole thing, have it approved by a governing body as proof.

i admit i will be skeptical.  but if someone were to torture them and put them to a slow, painful death and not one of them would recant their statement, then i am more likely to believe.  remember, the Apostles didn't just lived and preached and died peacefully.  they encountered severe harassment and torture from the Romans.  even historians agree that the likelihood of Christianity becoming successful was very, very small, given the steep uphill battle they had againt the resistant Roman empire.  and yet for something beyond logic, Christianity not only survived, it thrived and eventually conquered the Roman empire, and then spread to the world.

you have to look at the circumstances on how Christianity came to be to see how real it is

The Bible is not a book of facts. If it was, then it would have been made a textbook. Then there would be no Hindus, Muslims, etc. Even us Christians can't agree amongst ourselves. We have Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox churches and a whole lot more.

The atheists need proof. That we don't have.

the proof is there, you just don't accept it

why are you insistent that the Bible should be transformational beyond human will?  everyone has free will.  the Israelites saw the Red Sea parted and walked through it, and not a short time later they were worshiping a golden calf.  those like you who keep asking for proof, even when proof is there people still doubt.  even if God were to fly around the sky like superman, there will still be doubters and disbelievers.  do you think that would be enough to convince everybody?

and God wants a relationship with man, a loving relationship.  not just believe He is there or that He exists.  by showing up, sure, it may convince a few more people, but where's the love?  thats why Jesus shunned a lot of people who came to him for miracles.  because He knew they were there not to become close to God, but just to use His power for their own benefit.

its like if you win the lottery, suddenly relatives you never knew you have show up and suddenly you were oh so close.  is that the relationship you want with them?  same with God.  He wants a real, loving relationship.  giving the proofs you ask for only gives you what you need in your mind to believe, but not what your heart needs to love.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #568 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 01:17 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but are you saying that evolution could've started 5 to 10 thousand years ago and completed today?

If so, then yes we should have seen animals change in the last few thousand years. The fact that full speciation takes longer is in fact an argument that the Earth is older than 6,000 years old.Have you ever tried to breed, say, a Chihuahua with a Great Dane, sir? Even just mating similar breeds, like a Shih-Tzu and a Maltese won't always produce successful or fertile offspring.

i'm saying that evolution should be a continuing process, and the start and end points should vary from species to species.  the fact that we have no conclusive evidence of an observed evolution in the recent past means that macro evolution is non-existent.

That means only a little more and we have to start calling them separate species, not just breeds.
but they're not a different species.  they're still dogs.  to be a different species, they should be biologically distinct from previous dogs.  breeding is just that, breeding.  the same way all Chinese have their almond eyes, etc.  because in the past the migrants who came to the area have certain traits and since they were cut off from the outside world, certain traits became dominant and shared throughout the population as it grew.  eventually, with inter-racial "breeding", the traits are shared again with other human and passed around.  blonde hair, which is a recessive trait, would soon be gone

Offline choy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #569 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 02:12 AM »
We are complex organisms. We don't just evolve. But you can use viruses as samples. They are very much evolving.

and at the end of it all, they are still viruses

and the last time i checked, viruses aren't even considered living things.  they're a piece of genetic code wraped in protein.  thats it