Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines

[indie boi]

hmmmm... following instruction eh...

if there is no sign... how atheist will behave???

if there is no one telling that killling is wrong... will atheist kill because no one telling them it is wrong...
if there is no one telling that homosexuality is wrong... will atheist consider it right...
if there is no one telling that adultery is wrong... will atheist consider it right...

example: dito sa Pilipinas... a marriage must be between man and woman - most accepted that and that was the sign in our constitution... how atheist view a marriage between same gender... will they follow the sign "marriage between man and woman"... or will they make their own sign "marriage must be also between same gender"?

Hindi mo yata naintindihan yung tanong dahil ginawa mo na namang literal. Tawag dyan ad absurdum argument.

I'll ask it again -- Do you need to be a good Christian in order to follow a "No U-Turn" sign? It can be answered by a simple yes or no.

[Clondalkin]

Sa English Grammar, meron tinatawag na UNREAL CONDITIONAL.

Pero yeah Dpogs, if you will ever find a sign saying, "KILL THEM" in this lifetime, then let me know.


Who can ever tell with absolute certainty what an individual's opinion about every single issue in this world would be?  That has nothing to do with being an Atheist or not.

I would guess na Atheists think that after they die, there is absolutely nothing out there...but that doesn't give them the right to do something bad while they live - yeah, they should follow the traffic signs too.

So how do they know what's bad?  PERHAPS unless someone was totally isolated from another living creature especially another human being since he/she was born, he/she should know.

[dpogs]

Hindi mo yata naintindihan yung tanong dahil ginawa mo na namang literal. Tawag dyan ad absurdum argument.

I'll ask it again -- Do you need to be a good Christian in order to follow a "No U-Turn" sign? It can be answered by a simple yes or no.

its simply follow instruction... its about obeying whos in the authority... yes... you must have a proper knowledge that obeying those who are in authority is a good thing to do...

a good Christian will not fail to follow that "No U-Turn" signs...

what i am looking is... without those signs... without signs regarding our moral code....



if there is no sign... how atheist will behave???

if there is no one telling that killling is wrong... will atheist kill because no one telling them it is wrong...
if there is no one telling that homosexuality is wrong... will atheist consider it right...
if there is no one telling that adultery is wrong... will atheist consider it right...

example: dito sa Pilipinas... a marriage must be between man and woman - most accepted that and that was the sign in our constitution... how atheist view a marriage between same gender... will they follow the sign "marriage between man and woman"... or will they make their own sign "marriage must be also between same gender"?

[dpogs]

Sa English Grammar, meron tinatawag na UNREAL CONDITIONAL.

Pero yeah Dpogs, if you will ever find a sign saying, "KILL THEM" in this lifetime, then let me know.

hmmmm...

will these be enough "KILL THEM" sign








if there is no sign... how atheist will behave???

if there is no one telling that killling is wrong... will atheist kill because no one telling them it is wrong...
if there is no one telling that homosexuality is wrong... will atheist consider it right...
if there is no one telling that adultery is wrong... will atheist consider it right...

example: dito sa Pilipinas... a marriage must be between man and woman - most accepted that and that was the sign in our constitution... how atheist view a marriage between same gender... will they follow the sign "marriage between man and woman"... or will they make their own sign "marriage must be also between same gender"?

[Clondalkin]

What's the appropriate smiley for matinding kamot ng ulo or sinasabunutan ang sariling buhok?

[bumblebee]

will these be enough "KILL THEM" sign

Nope. It's an abortion clinic. Di naman sinabi na dapat magpa-abort ka.

Kapag ba nakikita ka ng U-turn slot, pinapasok mo lagi? Kahit di dun daan mo?

[dpogs]

"kill them" and "abortion" : pareho lang yan...




if there is no sign... how atheist will behave???

if there is no one telling that killling is wrong... will atheist kill because no one telling them it is wrong...
if there is no one telling that homosexuality is wrong... will atheist consider it right...
if there is no one telling that adultery is wrong... will atheist consider it right...

example: dito sa Pilipinas... a marriage must be between man and woman - most accepted that and that was the sign in our constitution... how atheist view a marriage between same gender... will they follow the sign "marriage between man and woman"... or will they make their own sign "marriage must be also between same gender"?

how atheist view "abortion".... wala namang signs or nagsasabi na mali ito???

or kapag sa isang lugar bawal ang abortion... bawal din para sa mga atheist...
and kapag sa isang lugar legal ang abortion or accepted ng nakakarami... ok na para sa mga atheist...

[alistair]

kasi kung atheist ako ngayon... eto lang magiging prinsipyo ko.... hanggat wala akong naagrabyado o nasasaktang ibang tao... tama ang ginagawa ko... i thought ganito ang pag-iisip ng mga atheist?

Mali ka. Plain and simple. Kahit pa ulit-ulit pang sabihin sa 'yo, ayaw mo naman makinig eh, so, carry on.

I thought ganito ang pag-iisip nang mga Kristiyano: as long as nasa Bibliya, tama ang ginagawa ko. Kaya ang pag-gamit nang condom, mali.

hmmm.... if most people accepted abortion as good... atheist will accept it as good?
hmmm.... if most Filipinos accepted homosexuality as bad will it be bad also to some atheist?

No and no.

You really don't get it. Morals are independent of belief in God.

Of course, you won't get it because for you the only valid basis for morality is the Bible. Except, you don't even agree with other Christians which Bible to use, much less how to read it.

it depends sa takbo ng panahon??? if mali ngayon naging tama later, atheist will just accept that change???

No.

In fact, ang pag-interpret nang Bibliya sumusunod sa takbo nang panahon. Bago nagka Lutheran movement at Sola Scriptura, lahat nang Kristiyano sumusunod sa Santo Papa at sususumpa ayon sa Apostles Creed. Well, mali nuon ang hindi pag-attend nang Misa at pagkumpisal sa pari.

Ngayon, ayon sa pag-interpret nang mga Protestante, well, hindi na kailangan mangumpisal sa pari.

So, kaninong moralidad ngayon ang "depende sa takbo ng panahon"?

[dpogs]

I thought ganito ang pag-iisip nang mga Kristiyano: as long as nasa Bibliya, tama ang ginagawa ko. Kaya ang pag-gamit nang condom, mali.
No and no.

You really don't get it. Morals are independent of belief in God.

Of course, you won't get it because for you the only valid basis for morality is the Bible. Except, you don't even agree with other Christians which Bible to use, much less how to read it.
No.

In fact, ang pag-interpret nang Bibliya sumusunod sa takbo nang panahon. Bago nagka Lutheran movement at Sola Scriptura, lahat nang Kristiyano sumusunod sa Santo Papa at sususumpa ayon sa Apostles Creed. Well, mali nuon ang hindi pag-attend nang Misa at pagkumpisal sa pari.

Ngayon, ayon sa pag-interpret nang mga Protestante, well, hindi na kailangan mangumpisal sa pari.

So, kaninong moralidad ngayon ang "depende sa takbo ng panahon"?

the bible remains as it is... mali lang ang interpretasyon...

ten commandments still the same...

wala naman nakalagay sa bible na mangumpisal sa pari...

hmmm... not all Christians came from RC....

So, kaninong moralidad ngayon ang "depende sa takbo ng panahon"?

Bible remains as it is... never change...

I thought ganito ang pag-iisip nang mga Kristiyano: as long as nasa Bibliya, tama ang ginagawa ko. Kaya ang pag-gamit nang condom, mali.

The bible never talks about condom... but it really talks about adultery and pre-marital sex...

between married couple i believe there is nothing wrong using condom...

what will be wrong is using condom outside marriage... kaya nagiging bad ang image ng condom... kasi ginagamit ito ng mga hindi pa kasal...




how atheist behave will depend on how community behaves.... right?

[alistair]

if there is no sign... how atheist will behave???

Heto pabalik na tanong.

Kung walang Biblia, how will a Christian behave? Well, if you ask the Roman Catholics/Orthodox/Anglicans tradition and apostolic succession predated the Bible so no problems there.

if there is no one telling that killling is wrong... will atheist kill because no one telling them it is wrong..
if there is no one telling that homosexuality is wrong... will atheist consider it right...
if there is no one telling that adultery is wrong... will atheist consider it right...

No, because as has been repeatedly said (and I'll be kind, I'll repeat it again), all people are capable of ethics, or, of coming up with a structure for moral judgement. Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists alike all are capable of ethics.

Wait, sorry. Let me correct myself. Only some people are capable of ethics. Some people cannot trust themselves to make moral judgments on their own.

example: dito sa Pilipinas... a marriage must be between man and woman - most accepted that and that was the sign in our constitution...

Can you point us to where in the 1987 Constitution it talks about "man" and "woman" in marriage?

[alistair]

if there is no sign... how atheist will behave???

if there is no one telling that killling is wrong... will atheist kill because no one telling them it is wrong...
if there is no one telling that homosexuality is wrong... will atheist consider it right...
if there is no one telling that adultery is wrong... will atheist consider it right...

Sir, if I may be blunt, ikaw lang siguro sa forums na ito ang naninawala na kailangan may iba pang magsasabi sa 'yo kung ano ang tama o mali. Everyone else, it seems, believes they are capable of independent moral judgement.

[dpogs]

Sir, if I may be blunt, ikaw lang siguro sa forums na ito ang naninawala na kailangan may iba pang magsasabi sa 'yo kung ano ang tama o mali.

im proud to be labeled like that... humanly speaking... i cannot determine what is right and wrong (lalon na sa panahon ngayon)... that is why I always read the Bible to remind me what is right and wrong... good thing is and i am very thankful of it... the Holy Spirit lives within me... spiritually speaking.... i know what is right and wrong...

Everyone else, it seems, believes they are capable of independent moral judgement.

not everyone... since there still someone supporitng homosexuality...
there still someone supporting abortion....

[dpogs]

Can you point us to where in the 1987 Constitution it talks about "man" and "woman" in marriage?

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 209
 THE FAMILY CODE OF THE PHILIPPINES
July 6, 1987
  I, CORAZON C. AQUINO, President of the Philippines, by virtue of the powers vested in me by the Constitution, do hereby order and promulgate the Family Code of the Philippines, as follows:
  
TITLE I
 
MARRIAGE
 
Chapter 1. Requisites of Marriage
  
Article 1. Marriage is a special contract of permanent union between a man and a woman entered into in accordance with law for the establishment of conjugal and family life. It is the foundation of the family and an inviolable social institution whose nature, consequences, and incidents are governed by law and not subject to stipulation, except that marriage settlements may fix the property relations during the marriage within the limits provided by this Code. (52a)
Art. 2. No marriage shall be valid, unless these essential requisites are present:

(1) Legal capacity of the contracting parties who must be a male and a female; and  


source: clickk here

kailangang baguhin ang constitution to allow same gender marriage

[alistair]

the bible remains as it is... mali lang ang interpretasyon...

At sino ang nagsasabi sa yo na ang interpretasyon mo tama o mali?

Wala.

wala naman nakalagay sa bible na mangumpisal sa pari...

Sabihin mo 'yan kay choy.

hmmm... not all Christians came from RC....

Kaya nga. Pero before the Reformation, almost all Christians were either Roman Catholic or Orthodox. Before Luther, walang sola scriptura. So, kaninong paniniwala ngayon ang pabago-bago depende sa panahon?

Bible remains as it is... never change...

Here we go again. What, since the time of Christ? Or since the first synods? Or only since the later ecumenical councils? Or, only after the Reformation?

The bible never talks about condom...

So, does that make it good or bad?

If you clone a human, does it have a soul? Well, if the Bible doesn't say so then we don't know.

Does the Bible talk about human cloning for organ harvesting? Is cloning humans for harvesting organs good or bad?

No, wait—you can't say. No, really. I don't think you can. Since good and bad are exclusively determined by the Bible, if it's not in the Bible—you can't say if its good or bad. To you, there's no such thing as personal ethics or primacy of conscience (since, I'm assuming, your conscience is corrupted by sin).

[alistair]

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 209
 THE FAMILY CODE OF THE PHILIPPINES

Constitution.

[alistair]

im proud to be labeled like that... humanly speaking...i cannot determine what is right and wrong (lalon na sa panahon ngayon)...

Well, at least you're honest.

that is why I always read the Bible to remind me what is right and wrong... good thing is and i am very thankful of it... the Holy Spirit lives within me... spiritually speaking.... i know what is right and wrong...

And if the Bible doesn't talk about it?

not everyone... since there still someone supporitng homosexuality...
there still someone supporting abortion...

Yes, and they came to those moral judgements on their own without anybody else telling them.

[dpogs]

hmmm... so it is confirmed.... that atheist based their moral on society... or ethics kung baga...

if an atheist were born sa mga walang ethics... wala rin silang morality???
if an atheist were born sa panahon ng mga barbarians.... ano sila good atheist or bad atheist???

mao zedong and pol pot??? were they a good atheist or bad atheist???

or masasabi natin na bad atheist sila kasi we have the knowledge that killing is bad...


by the way... who gave us the knowledge that killing is bad???

or bigla na lang naisip ng mga atheist na killing is bad...

when in the point of our history that killing became bad???

[sardaukar]

Cmon dogs, you know the answer to you question. When you were in high school or grade school, before you became ultra religious, did you kill anyone? Did you think killing was okay? Or did you know it was wrong even then?

[alistair]

hmmm... so it is confirmed.... that atheist based their moral on society...

Only you keep saying that. Maybe you honestly believe it, too, because you keep repeating it to yourself.

when in the point of our history that killing became bad???

I think a better question is, when was killing justified?

Crusades, Inquisition, Muslim conquests, French wars of Religion, the Thirty years war, Salem Witch trials, Shiite vs. Sunni Muslim genocides in present-day Middle East.

All justified.

[dpogs]

Cmon dogs, you know the answer to you question. When you were in high school or grade school, before you became ultra religious, did you kill anyone? Did you think killing was okay? Or did you know it was wrong even then?

hindi ako nanakit during that time kasi sasabihin nila basagulero ako... although gustong gusto kong suntukin ang isang pentecostal noon... saka alam ko at nasa batas ng Pilipinas na bawal ang pumatay o magnakaw...saka hindi ako lalapitan ng mga classmate kong babae kung alam nilang mananakit ako...

kaya naging prinsipyo ko na ang ganito as an atheist: "as long as i hurt nobody it is good... as long as wala akong naagrabyado it is good..."

that is why i am confirming it to our atheist here...

as an atheist... it is true that as long as no one get hurt it is good...

[dpogs]

Constitution.

FAMILY CODE OF THE PHILIPPINES
1987 CONSTITUTION
TITLE I




MARRIAGE

Chapter 1. Requisites of Marriage


Article 1. Marriage is a special contract of permanent union between a man and a woman entered into in accordance with law for the establishment of conjugal and family life. It is the foundation of the family and an inviolable social institution whose nature, consequences, and incidents are governed by law and not subject to stipulation, except that marriage settlements may fix the property relations during the marriage within the limits provided by this Code. (52a)


Art. 2. No marriage shall be valid, unless these essential requisites are present:


(1) Legal capacity of the contracting parties who must be a male and a female; and
(2) Consent freely given in the presence of the solemnizing officer. (53a)


source: click here

[alistair]

FAMILY CODE OF THE PHILIPPINES

Constitution.

You keep quoting Executive Order 209, signed by then President Corazon Aquino.

Here, let me help you with the relevant article from the actual Constitution, as ratified by the Filipino people in 1987:

ARTICLE XV
THE FAMILY
Section 1. The State recognizes the Filipino family as the foundation of the nation. Accordingly, it shall strengthen its solidarity and actively promote its total development.

Section 2. Marriage, as an inviolable social institution, is the foundation of the family and shall be protected by the State.

Section 3. The State shall defend:

      (1) The right of spouses to found a family in accordance with their religious convictions and the demands of responsible parenthood;

      (2) The right of children to assistance, including proper care and nutrition, and special protection from all forms of neglect, abuse, cruelty, exploitation and other conditions prejudicial to their development;

      (3) The right of the family to a family living wage and income; and

      (4) The right of families or family associations to participate in the planning and implementation of policies and programs that affect them.

Section 4. The family has the duty to care for its elderly members but the State may also do so through just programs of social security.

[alistair]

hindi ako nanakit during that time kasi sasabihin nila basagulero ako... although gustong gusto kong suntukin ang isang pentecostal noon... saka alam ko at nasa batas ng Pilipinas na bawal ang pumatay o magnakaw...saka hindi ako lalapitan ng mga classmate kong babae kung alam nilang mananakit ako...

Interesting.

Nowhere in your statement did you ever say, "I didn't do it because I thought it was wrong." Lahat, "kasi sasabihin nang iba", "kasi sabi sa batas"... in other words, kasi may consequences.

In other words, it's only wrong if there are negative consequences sa yo, tama ba?

So, kung walang negative consequence sa yo, is it good?

it is true that as long as no one get hurt it is good...

For the umpteenth time, No.

Now answer me, if it's not mentioned in the Bible, can you say whether something is right or wrong?

[dpogs]

For the umpteenth time, No.

Now answer me, if it's not mentioned in the Bible, can you say whether something is right or wrong?

as i said my bases of right and wrong is the Bible.... and when in doubt dont...




can you give me any moral issue na hindi namention ng bible???

[barrister]

source: click here

Sir dpogs, your source has a typographical error.  The Family Code is different from the 1987 Constitution.

http://www.lawphil.net/executive/execord/eo1987/eo_209_1987.html
http://www.lawphil.net/consti/cons1987.html

A real Philippine law site would be more reliable than a layman's wedding guide site.

[dpogs]

Interesting.

Nowhere in your statement did you ever say, "I didn't do it because I thought it was wrong." Lahat, "kasi sasabihin nang iba", "kasi sabi sa batas"... in other words, kasi may consequences.

In other words, it's only wrong if there are negative consequences sa yo, tama ba?

So, kung walang negative consequence sa yo, is it good?

i was an atheist back then... and all i think is myself... sarili kong kapakinabangan...

so an atheist will be branded bad atheist if what he/she do has a negative impact to himself???

[bumblebee]

can you give me any moral issue na hindi namention ng bible???

Feminism.

[dpogs]

Sir dpogs, your source has a typographical error.  The Family Code is different from the 1987 Constitution.

http://www.lawphil.net/executive/execord/eo1987/eo_209_1987.html
http://www.lawphil.net/consti/cons1987.html

A real Philippine law site would be more reliable than a layman's wedding guide site.

oh thank you sir barrister...

hmmm... the constitution speak only about family... di ko nakita ang tungkol sa "marriage".

[barrister]

OK lang yon sir.  I know it was an honest mistake.

[alistair]

how atheist differentiate good atheist and bad atheist???

i was an atheist back then... and all i think is myself... sarili kong kapakinabangan...

Sir, I think you may have just answered your own original question.