Author Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines  (Read 85001 times)

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Offline sardaukar

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #810 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 05:16 PM »
can you give me any moral issue na hindi namention ng bible???


I was going to mention it but alistair beat me to it. How about cloning? Good or bad?

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #811 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 05:21 PM »
can you give me any moral issue na hindi namention ng bible???
Was dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki right or wrong?

If, in a hypothetical war, you had the chance to end it early and save millions of lives, would you kill hundreds of thousands of people (combatants and civilians included)?

When does human life start? If at cell fertilization, is destroying fertilized eggs held in cryo-storage murder?

If, the only way to save a woman's life was by artificially inseminating one of her eggs to harvest stem cells to grow organs—do we commit murder by ending her life or by harvesting her eggs for organs?

When does human life end? Is ending artificial life support for a person who's been brain-dead for several months murder?
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2010 at 05:21 PM by alistair »

Offline barrister

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #812 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 05:41 PM »
How about slavery?

Most atheists would say slavery is wrong.  However, the Bible doesn't say slavery is wrong.


Here are 2 examples:


OK lang ang slavery:  

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.  9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. (Eph. 6:5-9, NIV)

OK lang kahit magulpi:

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. (1 Pet. 2:18-21, NIV)

« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2010 at 05:41 PM by barrister »

Offline JT

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #813 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 06:25 PM »
Would u like to know what does the bible says about human cloning?

While the Bible does not specifically deal with the subject of human cloning, there are principles in Scripture which may shed more light on the concept. Cloning requires both DNA and embryo cells. First, DNA is removed from the nucleus of a creature’s cell. The material, bearing coded genetic information, is then placed in the nucleus of an embryonic cell. The cell receiving the new genetic information would have had its own DNA removed in order to accept the new DNA. If the cell accepts the new DNA, a duplicate embryo is formed. However, the embryo cell may reject the new DNA and die. Also, it is very possible that the embryo may not survive having the original genetic material removed from its nucleus. In many cases, when cloning is attempted, several embryos are used in order to increase the odds of a successful implantation of new genetic material. While it is possible for a duplicate creature to be created in this manner (for example, Dolly the sheep), the chances of successfully duplicating a creature without variations, and without complication, are extremely slim.

The Christian view of the process of human cloning can be stated in light of several scriptural principles. First, human beings are created in the image of God and, therefore, are unique. Genesis 1:26-27 asserts that man is created in God’s image and likeness and is unique among all creations. Clearly, human life is something to be valued and not treated like a commodity to be bought and sold. Some people have promoted human cloning for the purpose of creating replacement organs for people in need of transplants who cannot find a suitable donor. The thinking is that to take one’s own DNA and create a duplicate organ composed of that DNA would greatly reduce the chances of organ rejection. While this may be true, the problem is that doing so cheapens human life. The process of cloning requires human embryos to be used. While cells can be generated to make new organs, it is necessary to kill several embryos to obtain the required DNA. In essence the cloning would “throw away” many human embryos as “waste material,” eliminating the chance for those embryos to grow into full maturity.

Many people believe that life does not begin at conception with the formation of the embryo, and therefore embryos are not really human beings. The Bible teaches differently. Psalm 139:13-16 says, “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” The writer, David, declares that he was known personally by God before he was born, meaning that at his conception he was a human being with a God-ordained future.

Further, Isaiah 49:1-5 speaks of God calling Isaiah to his ministry as a prophet while he was still in his mother’s womb. Also, John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in the womb (Luke 1:15). All of this points to the Bible’s stand on life beginning at conception. In light of this, human cloning, with its destruction of human embryos, would not be consistent with the Bible’s view of human life.

In addition, if humanity was created, then there must be a Creator, and humanity is therefore subject and accountable to that Creator. Although popular thinking—secular psychology and humanistic thought—would have one believe that man is accountable to no one but himself and that man is the ultimate authority, the Bible teaches differently. God created man and gave him responsibility over the earth (Genesis 1:28-29, 9:1-2). With this responsibility comes accountability to God. Man is not the ultimate authority over himself, and he is therefore not in a position to make decisions about the value of human life. Neither, then, is science the authority by which the ethics of human cloning, abortion, or euthanasia are decided. According to the Bible, God is the only one who rightfully exercises sovereign control over human life. To attempt to control such things is to place oneself in God’s position. Clearly, man is not to do this.

If we view man as simply another creature and not as the unique creation he is, it is not difficult to see human beings as mere mechanisms needing maintenance and repair. But we are not just a collection of molecules and chemicals. The Bible teaches that God created each of us and has a specific plan for each of us. Further, He seeks a personal relationship with each of us through His Son, Jesus Christ. While there are aspects of human cloning which may seem beneficial, mankind has no control over where cloning technology may go. It is foolish to assume that only good intentions will direct the utilization of cloning. Man is not in a position to exercise the responsibility or judgment that would be required to govern the cloning of human beings.

A frequent question is whether a cloned human being, assuming that human cloning is one day successful, would have a soul. Genesis 2:7 says, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Here is the description of God creating a living, human soul. Souls are what we are, not what we have (1 Corinthians 15:45). The question is what kind of living soul would be created by human cloning? That is not a question that can be conclusively answered. It seems, though, that if a human being were successfully cloned, the clone would be just as much of a human being, including having an eternal soul, as any other human being.



Offline JT

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #814 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 06:26 PM »
How about WAR?

Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).



Offline JT

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #815 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 06:26 PM »
And slavery?

There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 12 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.


Offline indie boi

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #816 on: Mar 17, 2010 at 08:59 PM »
Quote
A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others.

Very, very interesting.

Offline CMac

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #817 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 12:42 AM »
Watched "The Soloist" again the other day and found this script very funny and I also remembered this thread.

Robert Downey Jr. was looking for a story for his news column and interviewed a member of a non-believing group.


RDJ:            So, you guys are basically united by non-belief.

 
Non-believer: That's right. Yeah.

 
RDJ:             So, do you non-gather? And non-worship?

 
Non-believer: We tried, but...

 
RDJ:              Not a lot to talk about.
Non-believer:  Yeah.

 
Non-believer: Now we have a website.
RDJ:             Swell.


Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #818 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:17 AM »
I was going to mention it but alistair beat me to it. How about cloning? Good or bad?

Add also the following:

Hacking and wiretapping, good or bad? (I guess the Bible has something to say also with technology ethics of the 21st century)

Stealing top secret documents to expose the anomalies of a government (think of Daniel Ellsberg), whistleblowing, good or bad?

Genocide in the name of god or commanded by gawd or whatever, good or bad?

How about this, what's the moral lesson from this bible verse? Can the father (his name is Lot btw) be considered "just and righteous" by offering his two virgin daughters to the mob?

Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."
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Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #819 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:29 AM »
Very, very interesting.

The big question is how to identify a genuine, true experience of god's grace. Experience is very very subjective and no objective basis. This kind of reminded me of a scene in Carl Sagan's book-turned-into-a-movie "Contact" where Jodi Foster's character is being questioned by a panel for proof on her "outerspace" experience.

I know one person who claimed he has truly experienced god's grace and was very gay about it  ;D


« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:27 AM by redrat »
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Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #820 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:36 AM »
Jesus Camp

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com



From wikipedia:

Jesus Camp is a 2006 American documentary film directed by Rachel Grady and Heidi Ewing about a Pentecostal/charismatic summer camp for children who spend their summers learning and practicing their "prophetic gifts" and being taught that they can "take back America for Christ." According to the distributor, it "doesn't come with any prepackaged point of view" and tries to be "an honest and impartial depiction of one faction of the evangelical Christian community".

Jesus Camp debuted at the 2006 Tribeca Film Festival, and was sold by A&E Indie Films to Magnolia Pictures. Controversy surrounding the film was featured in several television news programs and print media articles in 2006.

On January 23, 2007, Jesus Camp was nominated for the 2006 seventy-ninth Annual Academy Award (Oscar) for Best Documentary Feature. It lost to Davis Guggenheim and Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth.
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Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #821 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:38 AM »
so far i've only seen religulous and what i can say is that these documentaries are very short sighted and biased

they only seek to discredit and destroy religon and faith without showing the good side of it.  its not even opening a light from a neutral perspective.  its heavily biased and Bill Maher is a religion hater and staunch atheist who seeks to end all religion in the world

You have only seen Religulous and you are quick to generalize that "these" documentaries are very short sighted and biased? The bible btw is also biased, right?
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:38 AM by redrat »
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Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #822 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:47 AM »
How about WAR?

Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).




Ah yes, and the other camp (Islam) is also thinking of the same thing - the Jews and Christians are infidels and should be wiped out from the face of the earth.

As Bertrand Russell would put it, "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

No matter how you try to justify war by citing some bible verses, war is not a rational thing. It only sows more hatred, and the vicious cycle will go on.

I'd like to quote Carl Sagan's message from "The Cosmos" TV series:

"The old appeals to racial, sexual and religious chauvinism and to rabid nationalism are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet."
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 01:54 AM by redrat »
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Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #823 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:08 AM »
LOL, but i for one consider myself a creationist, mainly because of theological issues.  although i'm open to a creation event that coincides with the evolutionary theory and the big bang

the most amazing thing i find about Genesis is that the creation sequence is in the same sequence the universe was actually created.  except for the part where the oceans and the land existed before the sun and the stars.  but the fact that the universe began its existence when God said, "Let there be light," and where else can this light come from but the Big Bang?  after which the heavenly bodies were created, then flora and fauna, then man.  this comes from people who have no idea about the modern science we rely on today

Do you know about the creation story in Hinduism? Surprisingly, the cosmic time scale described in Hinduism is almost the same with modern science. The beginning and the end of the universe in the Hindu world is somewhat similar to some scientific theories on the universe (or multiverse).

The Judaism Genesis account could have been borrowed or copied from Babylonian, or even Egyptian creation stories, same goes with other popular bible stories like Noah's Ark, immaculate conception and Jesus' divinity.
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #824 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:18 AM »
Clear as day. Though I'm pretty sure that one of the inevitable questions will be how atheists would know right from wrong if they don't believe in God/read the Bible.

You might find the answers here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/determine-morality.html

Here's a trivial question: Buddha did not taught anything about god worship and definitely did not read the bible. Does this mean he does not know right from wrong?
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:18 AM by redrat »
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Offline redrat

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #825 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:23 AM »
Another good documentary film. There's a book as well.

The Pagan Christ

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/paganchrist.html



This is Harpur's most radical and groundbreaking work to date, in which he digs deep into the origins of Christianity and how the early Christian church covered up all attempts to reveal the Bible as myth.

What began as a universal belief system has become a ritualistic institution headed by ultraconservative literalists. As he reconsiders a lifetime of worship and study, Harpur reveals a cosmic faith built on these truths that the modern church has renounced. His message is clear: our blind faith in literalism is killing Christianity. Only with a return to an inclusive religion where Christ lives within each of us will we gain a true understanding of who we are and who we are intended to become.
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Offline JT

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #826 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 10:42 AM »
How about this, what's the moral lesson from this bible verse? Can the father (his name is Lot btw) be considered "just and righteous" by offering his two virgin daughters to the mob?

Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."

In spite of the deterioration of Lot’s faith and his continuing association with the Sodomites. he earns Peter’s judgment as "just" and "righteous." But, as the story shows, being righteous does not necessarily mean being right. His righteousness are related to his heart intents as they were good.  But he was vexed, distressed, by the wickedness which surrounded him and his decisions were not right. Thus he failed of the high commendation of faith which Paul gave his uncle Abraham.

The judgment of Lot in the Lord’s eyes is not given in the Bible. We do well, though, to profit from his mistakes and not to repeat them. As for his judgment or ours, 2 Cor. 8:12 says "For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not."


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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #827 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 11:53 AM »
Feminism.

COPIED

What are the issues of feminism? Feminism is a counterfeit solution to the real issue of the inequality of women in a sinful society. Feminism arrogates to itself the right to demand respect and equality in every aspect of life. Feminism is based in arrogance and it is the opposite of the call to the born again believer to be a servant. The actions of the modern, militant feminists are geared to cause women to rise up and rebel against the order that God has given to mankind. That brand of feminism seeks to impose humanistic solutions that are in direct opposition to the Word of God. Feminism was originally a positive movement, focused on giving women the basic rights God intends for every human being to have. Tragically, feminism has gone past those roots to focus on destroying any trace of a distinction in roles between men and women.

What then should be the view of a Christian about feminism? A believing woman, who is seeking to obey God and walk in peace and grace, should remember that she has equal access to all spiritual blessings in Christ. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). A believing woman should not allow herself to be a pawn in the worldly agenda of the feminist movement. Men and women have a God-given privilege to fulfill the plan He has set for us. Rebellion against that plan, and the arrogance that seeks to put self above God's Word, results in very difficult consequences. We see those consequences in the destruction of the relationship between husbands and wives, the destruction of the family, and the loss of respect for human life.

There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #828 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 12:02 PM »
Feminism

Ephesians 5
 "Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord". ...  "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything". ... "nevertheless let everyone of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband".

I Peter 3:1, "Like wise you wives, be in subjection to your own husbands".
 
None of these passages teach that women are inferior in intellect, but that her feminine qualities preclude her being as well endowed for leadership. The subjection does not mean servitude. It is not the relationship of master and slave or as a maid or servant. Hers is a recognition of the husband's leadership, wisdom and tenderness. He should be as loving toward her as Christ loved the church.

At this point, there are several privileges that belong to the wife. For instance, she is to be loved like Christ loved the church as commanded in Ephesians 5:25. She is to be honored as none other in I Peter 3:7, and she is to be praised by her family, Pro. 31:28. In Titus 2:4 we read, "That (the aged women) may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed". Here is a fine list of the responsibilities of the wife. All of these are important, but let us just dwell on four of these.

"To love their husbands" is a command. Too often this is equated by men to believe it is only a sexual relationship and in the mind of some women, that is all they think they are good for. To love your husband means that you are a partner with him, working together toward a common goal. Then you can be appreciative of his actions, efforts and work in supporting the family. You will do all that you possibly can to see that they are comfortable and happy when they come home.

"To love their children", is another command. As men provide for the family financially, mothers s tay home and rear the children. This might often be considered a thankless job. This is an area in which you can excel. As he earns the living and supports the family, you take care of the children while he is gone to work and make the house comfortable by keeping it pleasant and enjoyable. Yes, children can become exasperating at times, but remember, they are children who are still developing and learning. They need that sober guiding hand of the mature mother who lets them know that they are the objects of her love and concern.

"To be obedient to their own husband" points out the closeness of the two." This is not indicating that You can't and do not have any thoughts of your own The idea is that as husband and wife work together and that you are not constantly pulling in an opposite direction. This obedience does not mean that you are a slave or an indentured servant, but rather that you are sharing a mutual goal. The harshness of the word obedient is tempered by the display of love and affection that the husband shows his wife. "To be keepers at home" is a command that indicates a divided responsibility. His job seems to be to go out and earn the living and provide for his family while she looks after the home. Even though a wife does not work outside of the home in what we call public work, she is still vital to the income of the family. Hers is a non-income producing activity, but it is still vitally important to the overall success of the family.

When God created woman, she was taken from the rib of man as is described in Genesis. She was not taken from his foot that she might be crushed underneath his heel in bitterness. Neither was she taken from his head so that she might rule over him. She was not taken from the hand so that she might continually fill the position of waiting upon him. She was taken from the rib on man that she might be by his side continually. She is to be loved and is to respond as a part of his body. Husbands and wives are a part of each other. Let me call your attention to the Old Testament in which the writer Solomon describes a worthy woman. It is Proverbs 31:10-31. These verses quite explicitly give us God's view of a wife and mother.

Proverbs 31:10-31 (King James Version)

 10Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

 11The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

 12She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

 13She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

 14She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

 15She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

 16She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

 17She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

 18She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

 19She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

 20She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

 21She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.

 22She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

 23Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

 24She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

 25Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

 26She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

 27She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

 28Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

 29Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

 30Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

 31Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.



Genesis 3:16
"her desire shall be to man".

Eph. 5:23,
"husband is head of the wife";

I Tim. 2:11-12,
"She shall have no dominion over a man".

Now don't stop at these verses and think that the only responsibility of the husband is to be HEAD of the house. By the way, head does not mean master as in a master-slave relationship, nor does it mean a relationship like a general to a private in the army. It is more like a partnership where one is the leader, guide, director. Now consider this. Can you think of any decision that a husband should make WITHOUT consulting or considering his wife and her wishes? I cannot!

The husband is to love his wife above all other human beings. Consider Eph. 5:25 and 28; and Col. 3:19. These passages teach that the husband is to be considerate and tender. The verses in Ephesians 5 teach that the husband is to cherish his wife. This means that she is to be treated with tenderness and affection. This would mean that since love must be fed, there is to be a warm demonstrative love relationship. The husband has the responsibility of not only demonstrating his love and concern, but telling her. He should not sit in such self-absorption that he does not talk with her and communicate with her socially, mentally, verbally and physically. The husband will demonstrate his love for his wife in other ways, rather than just at the time of sexual relationship. If this is the only time that affection and consideration is shown, then a wife will get the idea that all a husband is interested in is her body and that she is merely a sex object.

I Peter 3:7, teaches that the husband is to honor his wife. She gave up her name to take yours. Honor means that you should show her respect and this involves courtesy, consideration and emotional support. Be sure that as her husband that you do not hold her up to ridicule in public by the cutting remarks that you make. She wears YOUR name and is to viewed as part of your body. She is not perfect and you are aware of this. Do not expect perfection, but as Ephesians 4:32 teaches, "forbear one another". This means to be gentle toward her. Control of temper, abstaining from physical violence and restraining a sharp tongue that makes one feel so inferior - are ways by which you can exhibit forbearance.
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline barrister

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #829 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM »
No matter how you try to justify war by citing some bible verses, war is not a rational thing. It only sows more hatred, and the vicious cycle will go on.

Actually, sir JT's Bible verses did not give the answers either.

Cloning - We all agree that cloning for body parts is wrong, but the questions were about cloning per se.  

War - We all agree that a defensive war is justified, but sir alistair was specifically asking about preemptive strikes.

Slavery - He agrees that the Bible does not prohibit slavery, although it does prohibit some forms.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 12:08 PM by barrister »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #830 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 12:38 PM »
More importantly, all these pastings (I apologize if all the above are original postings) illustrate my point.

Even as Christians, there needs to be a careful, structured system and process of discovery and value judgement to arrive at moral decisions, particularly on 'thorny' or modern moral dilemnas.

I mean, a process that seeks to examine all possible facets, motivations and consequences of a moral decision, then weighs those against values and beliefs of an individual, and of society in general.

Now, I call this ethics. Which some people think they aren't capable of.

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #831 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:39 PM »
^I suppose we should be glad they found religion or else, what would they have already done, not knowing it was wrong?
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 02:57 PM by sardaukar »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #832 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 03:18 PM »
More importantly, all these pastings (I apologize if all the above are original postings) illustrate my point.

Even as Christians, there needs to be a careful, structured system and process of discovery and value judgement to arrive at moral decisions, particularly on 'thorny' or modern moral dilemnas.

I mean, a process that seeks to examine all possible facets, motivations and consequences of a moral decision, then weighs those against values and beliefs of an individual, and of society in general.

Now, I call this ethics. Which some people think they aren't capable of.

based on your observations... how you categorize then those homosexual activists... ???

what is the approved ethic in our society??? regarding homosexuality or SSM???
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline indie boi

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #833 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 03:21 PM »
Dpogs, if I may suggest something, why don't you read up on what morality and ethics mean first just so you can have a more rudimentary understanding of how the two differ? Kahit Wikipedia, it can help. At least may common platform na for discourse. At this point kasi, you're still confusing the two.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #834 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 03:50 PM »
Dpogs, if I may suggest something, why don't you read up on what morality and ethics mean first just so you can have a more rudimentary understanding of how the two differ? Kahit Wikipedia, it can help. At least may common platform na for discourse. At this point kasi, you're still confusing the two.

homosexuality: moral or ethics???



bakit a minority will insist their behavior (e.g. homosexuality or SSM) to be accepted in a society where majority doesnt approve it???


i just want a simple explanation: how atheist/free thinkers decide that a certain behavior is acceptable or not???


paano nila nasabi na this certain action is acceptable or not???

Theist: its either they have a guidelines Bible/Koran/or their founders declaration
Atheist: government law, sorrounding ethics, as long as no one get hurts (depende sa sitwasyon) ???


because as an atheist before... all i think is myself... what is beneficial to myself iyon ang gagawin ko... action that will have a direct negatve result to myself i wont do it... is this acceptable or not???
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #835 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 04:43 PM »
bakit a minority will insist their behavior (e.g. homosexuality or SSM) to be accepted in a society where majority doesnt approve it???
Same reason the Protestant minority will insist their behavior should be accepted in a society where the majority is Catholic.

Quote
i just want a simple explanation: how atheist/free thinkers decide that a certain behavior is acceptable or not???
No, you don't. Your question has been answered countless times, in different threads, but you don't want to listen.

You probably just want to say, "Atheists have no basis for their morality."

If that's what you honestly believe, then there's nothing we can do to change that.

Quote
because as an atheist before... all i think is myself... what is beneficial to myself iyon ang gagawin ko... action that will have a direct negatve result to myself i wont do it... is this acceptable or not???
No. More than anything, you were a selfish person. It didn't matter that you were an atheist. In fact, if you're still a selfish person it doesn't matter that you're a professed Christian.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 05:04 PM by alistair »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #836 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 05:17 PM »
hmmm... my thinking as an atheist then can be considered as selfish...

so the argument of homosexuality na

"bakit sila pinapakialaman hindi naman sila nakakapanakit"
"kung saan sila masaya hayaan na lang natin"

is some sort of selfish attitude???

There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #837 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 05:48 PM »
Your question has been answered countless times, in different threads, but you don't want to listen.

You probably just want to say, "Atheists have no basis for their morality."

If that's what you honestly believe, then there's nothing we can do to change that.


Sir dpog's questions are not interrogative, they're rhetorical.

As I've repeatedly posted, conscience is the moral guide for non-believers (Rom. 2:12-16).  Is it really so hard to believe that atheists can have a conscience?

It's possible for an atheist to be charitable.  

Warren Buffett and Bill & Melinda Gates are reputedly atheists (they haven't directly confirmed it), yet they are genereous philantropists who have given billions to charity.

The atheist philantropist Robert Wilson once gave $22.5M to the Archdiocese of New York to fund a scholarship program for needy inner-city students attending Roman Catholic schools:

Alms wide open
Self-avowed atheist ponies up $22.5M to help out Catholic schools
BY JENS DANA and DAVE GOLDINER
DAILY NEWS WRITERS
Thursday, May 24th 2007, 4:00 AM

The wealthy philanthropist who gave $22.5 million to help Catholic schools doesn't think much of theology - in fact, he's an atheist.

But even though Robert Wilson doesn't believe in God, he does believe in giving poor kids a chance at a quality education.

"I am an atheist, [but] it's far more than about religion," said Robert Wilson, who was raised as an Episcopalian. "It's about getting an education. The donation has nothing to do with religion."


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/05/24/2007-05-24_alms_wide_open-2.html

Some theists have an ulterior motive for charity --- they want to gain some brownie points in heaven  :D.  But when atheists give to charity, what is their motive if not a selfless concern for the well-being of others?

« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 10:47 PM by barrister »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #838 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 05:56 PM »
hmmm... my thinking as an atheist then can be considered as selfish...
Again. Your thinking (then) was selfish. It had nothing to do with your being an atheist or not.

You could've been an atheist, but acted out of empathy and compassion, and not purely of out your own self-interest.

On the other hand, lots of Christians act purely out of their own self interest. Anything that 'guarantees' their salvation, even if it requires them to oppress or degrade other people, then that's ok.

For example, firebombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors who perform abortions is 'moral' to a Christian zealot who thinks they are doing the right thing that will earn them a seat in Heaven.

It's no different from a Muslim jihadist who believes he will go to an oasis full of virgins and overflowing honey if he flies a plane into a building full of people.

Quote
so the argument of homosexuality na
There's a whole thread for this. Let's try to keep posts where they belong.

Quote
"bakit sila pinapakialaman hindi naman sila nakakapanakit"
"kung saan sila masaya hayaan na lang natin"

is some sort of selfish attitude???
The exact same things can be said of praying the Rosary or venerating images of Ganesh.

Unless, of course, you consider yourself the guardian of all righteousness and think that people who pray the Rosary or venerate Ganesh should be prevented from doing so because they're performing idolatry which is a mortal sin.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 06:33 PM by alistair »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #839 on: Mar 18, 2010 at 05:57 PM »
Si dpog's questions are not interrogative, they're rhetorical.
Hmm, you're probably right. I apologize.

You deal with literalists too long, you become one yourself.


Quote
But when atheists give to charity, what is their motive if not a selfless concern for the well-being of others?
The cynical bastard in me thinks, "tax breaks".
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2010 at 06:04 PM by alistair »