Topic: The Religion Thread

[pTrader]

then be like God or follow Satan

wala rin namamg free will si Satan, bagsak niya kullungan ng Dios.. asan yung free will doon?

[majoe]

pag under ka sa batas nasaan ang free will doon? e lahat tao under the laws of God, nasaan din ang free will doon.

Choices lang ang meron ang tao.

free ka naman na i violate ang batas, choice mo yun.

[jhelenz]

pag under ka sa batas nasaan ang free will doon? e lahat tao under the laws of God, nasaan din ang free will doon.

Choices lang ang meron ang tao.

magsabi ka ng totoo, me balak kang gumawa ng masama no?

[jerix]

Satan is also God's creation assigned to lead the group that are predestined to go against the will of God. I believe God is not happy when he does not see any opposition to his authority. He is also not happy being alone that is why we are here. If so many of his creation will be burned for violating his laws then the whole thing will be stored as his divine experience. Because whether he likes it or not, he will be burning himself.

[pTrader]

free ka naman na i violate ang batas, choice mo yun.

so it is your choice to be free..
so itis your choice to decide what to do..

[majoe]

wala rin namamg free will si Satan, bagsak niya kullungan ng Dios.. asan yung free will doon?

God is almighty and at the same time, a just God.

[majoe]

so it is your choice to be free..
so itis your choice to decide what to do..

absolutely

pero isipin mo, di lang ikaw ang nabubuhay sa mundo. remember the golden rule?

[pTrader]

absolutely

pero isipin mo, di lang ikaw ang nabubuhay sa mundo. remember the golden rule?

That is why I love what God has done, he put boundaries..

Acts 17:26

English Standard Version
And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

[pTrader]

That is one of my favorite verses. i know what it means when it comes to nature of man. the concept you want to share is usually i didnt mention them in sharing the word of God to unbelievers. as long they know that we are sinners, as long as they know that we need a saving grace, as long as they accept in theirselves that they need a saviour, then as much as possible i didnt mention the total depravity of men.

so ayaw mo ng Rose gusto mo TULIP?

[dpogs]

so ayaw mo ng Rose gusto mo TULIP?

i only like the first 's'

and definitely give daisy to new believer.
and then later introduce the roses.
last is tulip.

but i will never introduce them when sharing the Word of God.

[pTrader]

i only like the first 's'

and definitely give daisy to new believer.
and then later introduce the roses.
last is tulip.

but i will never introduce them when sharing the Word of God.

is TULIP a good base for Christianity?

[barrister]

Instead of saying "TULIP," why don't you just say that you believe man has no free will in the matter of salvation?

Masisira na ang ulo ni sir bumblebee sa gulo ng sinasabi ninyo na "free will" kuno, e Five-Point Calvinism pala yon.
 
 
===================================


To those not yet familiar with the doctrine, here's a brief rundown:

Five-Point Calvinists believe in TULIP, an acronym that stands for:

1. Total Depravity - All men are depraved in sin, so they can't respond to God. Since no man can respond, God elected and predestined a special group of people to salvation. May favoritism pala ang Diyos.
 
2. Unconditional Election -  The special group of the elect were chosen by God since eternity past. "Unconditional" because the election and predestination are not conditioned on man's response.  Membership in the elect group is predetermined by God, so if you're not part of it, sorry ka na lang.
 
3. Limited Atonement - Salvation is not for all, it's only for a limited group --- Limited Atonement. Salvation will come only to those who were elected, and Christ died only for them. Pag hindi ka kasama sa exclusive group, pasensiya ka, kasi wala kang pag-asa kahit konti.

4. Irresistible Grace - When God calls you, you can't resist. You are predestined to salvation, and it will be impossible for you to refuse it. Walang free will diyan, kaya itapon mo na ang free will mo.

5. Perseverance of the Saints - Those predestined to salvation will persevere in faith. The perseverance is automatic and irresistible, kaya wala talagang free will.  Since you are predestined to salvation, no matter what you do, you will always be saved. Once Saved, Always Saved ("OSAS").

[dpogs]

is TULIP a good base for Christianity?

to appreciate more the grace of God, yes.
but to win the hearts of sinners, no.

[pTrader]

Instead of saying "TULIP," why don't you just say that you believe man has no free will in the matter of salvation?

Masisira na ang ulo ni sir bumblebee sa gulo ng sinasabi ninyo na "free will" kuno, e Five-Point Calvinism pala yon.
 
 
===================================


To those not yet familiar with the doctrine, here's a brief rundown:

Five-Point Calvinists believe in TULIP, an acronym that stands for:

1. Total Depravity - All men are depraved in sin, so they can't respond to God. Since no man can respond, God elected and predestined a special group of people to salvation. May favoritism pala ang Diyos.
 
2. Unconditional Election -  The special group of the elect were chosen by God since eternity past. "Unconditional" because the election and predestination are not conditioned on man's response.  Your membership in the elect group is predetermined by God, so if you're not part of it, sorry ka na lang.
 
3. Limited Atonement - Salvation is not for all, it's only for a limited group --- Limited Atonement. Salvation will come only to those who were elected, and Christ died only for them. Pag hindi ka kasama sa exclusive group, pasensiya ka, kasi wala kang pag-asa kahit konti.

4. Irresistible Grace - When God calls you, you can't resist. You are predestined to salvation, and it will be impossible for you to refuse it. Walang free will diyan, kaya itapon mo na ang free will mo.

5. Perseverance of the Saints - Those predestined to salvation will persevere in faith. The perseverance is automatic and irresistible, kaya wala talagang free will.  Since you are predestined to salvation, no matter what you do, you will always be saved. Once Saved, Always Saved ("OSAS").

TULIP for you:

Total Depravity

Our sinful corruption is so deep and so strong as to make us slaves of sin and morally unable to overcome our own rebellion and blindness. This inability to save ourselves from ourselves is total. We are utterly dependent on God’s grace to overcome our rebellion, give us eyes to see, and effectively draw us to the Savior.

 Unconditional Election

God’s election is an unconditional act of free grace that was given through his Son Jesus before the world began. By this act, God chose, before the foundation of the world, those who would be delivered from bondage to sin and brought to repentance and saving faith in Jesus.

 Irresistible Grace

This means that the resistance that all human beings exert against God every day (Romans 3:10–12; Acts 7:51) is wonderfully overcome at the proper time by God’s saving grace for undeserving rebels whom he chooses freely to save.

 Limited Atonement

The atonement of Christ is sufficient for all humans and effective for those who trust him. It is not limited in its worth or sufficiency to save all who believe. But the full, saving effectiveness of the atonement that Jesus accomplished is limited to those for whom that saving effect was prepared. The availability of the total sufficiency of the atonement is for all people. Whosoever will — whoever believes — will be covered by the blood of Christ. And there is a divine design in the death of Christ to accomplish the promises of the new covenant for the chosen bride of Christ. Thus Christ died for all people, but not for all in the same way.

 Perseverance of the Saints

We believe that all who are justified will win the fight of faith. They will persevere in faith and will not surrender finally to the enemy of their souls. This perseverance is the promise of the new covenant, obtained by the blood of Christ, and worked in us by God himself, yet not so as to diminish, but only to empower and encourage, our vigilance; so that we may say in the end, I have fought the good fight, but it was not I, but the grace of God which was with me (2 Timothy 4:7; 1 Corinthians 15:10).


Question lang, saan ka kumukuha ng definition mo about Calvinism, kasi tainted eh..

[barrister]

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
 
Puwede mong sabihin na tainted yung akin, puwede ko ring sabihin na sanitized yung sa iyo.  Depende sa viewpoint.
 

[pTrader]

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
 
Puwede mong sabihin na tainted yung akin, puwede ko ring sabihin na sanitized yung sa iyo.  Depende sa viewpoint.

eto yung nasa website na yun:

Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).



Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

wala namang "speacial group of people " dun ahh at "exclusive group"...

[barrister]

eto yung nasa website na yun:

wala namang "speacial group of people " dun ahh at "exclusive group"...

Meron. 

Wala ngang letra-por-letra, pero meron sa kahulugan.

"Therefore God must predestine." - Exclusive membership pala ng mga predestined.  Paano kang magiging member?  Ginawa ka nang member ng Diyos since the beginning of time.  Puwede ba akong mag-member bukas?  E di hindi.

"Some are elected into salvation, others are not." - E di exclusive club nga.

"Jesus died only for the elect." - And if you are not part of the special group of the elect, kahit ano gawin mo, puwera ka na nga.


"To the elect, God sends an internal call." - If you are not part of the elect exclusive club, meron bang internal call?  E di wala.

"You cannot lose your salvation." - Sino daw ang "you"?  Kanina pa sinasabing yung elect lang, hindi lahat.  E di yung member ng special, exclusive group.


=================================


The Calvinists try to sugarcoat it, but their doctrine is clear.  Only the elect will be saved.  The elect were chosen by God from the beginning of time. 

Mabuti pa ang INC, sila lang ang maliligtas, pero umanib ka, maliligtas ka rin.  Sa Calvinism, pag hindi ka kasama sa elect since the beginning of time, wala ka nang pag-asa kahit umanib ka pa.

[pTrader]

Meron. 

Wala ngang letra-por-letra, pero meron sa kahulugan.

"God must predestine." - Exclusive membership pala.  Paano kang magiging member?  Ginawa ka nang member ng Diyos since the beginning of time.  Puwede ba akong mag-member bukas?  E di hindi.

"Some are elected into salvation, others are not." - E di exclusive club nga.

"Jesus died only for the elect." - And if you are not part of the special group, kahit ano gawin mo, puwera ka na nga.


"To the elect, God sends an internal call." - If you are not part of the elect exclusive club, meron bang internal call?  E di wala.

"You cannot lose your salvation." - Sino daw ang "you"?  Kanina pa sinasabing yung elect lang, hindi lahat.  E di yung member ng special, exclusive group.


=================================


The Calvinists try to sugarcoat it, but their doctrine is clear.  Only the elect will be saved.  The elect were chosen by God from the beginning of time. 

Mabuti pa ang INC, sila lang ang maliligtas, pero umanib ka, maliligtas ka rin.  Sa Calvinism, pag hindi ka kasama sa elect since the beginning of time, wala ka nang pag-asa kahit umanib ka pa.

this is pure religion based explanation..

kung gusto  mo ng exclusive ito yun:

Matthew 1:21New International Version (NIV)

 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a] because he will save his people from their sins.”


John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


eto muna for now

[luis]

for me, there is no exclusivity on Salvation.

my definition of Salvation is going to heaven.

basta marunong kang makipagkapwa (umintindi, malasakit, magshare, etc., context is encompassing) pwede kang makapunta sa heaven.

 

[pTrader]

exclusive.. continuation:


2 Tim 2:19

New International Version
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

New Living Translation
But God's truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: "The LORD knows those who are his," and "All who belong to the LORD must turn away from evil."

English Standard Version
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

New American Standard Bible
Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

King James Bible
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

[barrister]

this is pure religion based explanation..

Of course it's religion-based. I was discussing Calvinism, not the bible.

this is pure religion based explanation..

kung gusto mo ng exclusive ito yun:

Matthew 1:21New International Version (NIV)

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a] because he will save his people from their sins.”

That's right. Christ will save His people.

But how do you become a member of Christ's people?

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31)

Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. (Mt. 16:24)

You become a part of Christ's people not by predestination, but by your own action (you should believe, you should deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him).

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Tama. They are not His sheep because they refuse to believe, not because they were predestined to be goats.

Is being Christ's sheep an unchangeable condition, or do we become Christ's sheep by our own actions?

Continue the chapter to John 10:37-38:

37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

In the prior verses, Jesus said only the sheep believe. But in these verses, Jesus is encouraging the non-sheep to believe.

Why encourage them to believe, if being sheep is a predestined, unchangeable condition?

It is clear that being sheep is accomplished by believing, not by pre-ordained condition.

eto muna for now

Ilabas mo na sir yung Rom. 8:29-30, para mas interesting:

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

  

[barrister]

exclusive.. continuation:


2 Tim 2:19
 
New International Version
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

Tama. The Lord knows who are His.
 
How did those people become "His"?  By their own actions, not by predestination.
 
 

[pTrader]

Tama. The Lord knows who are His.
 
How did those people become "His"?  By their own actions, not by predestination.

Romans 9:6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c
 
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e
 
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


Electtion sir..

[barrister]

 
Those verses are not about predestination in salvation; they are about the birthright of the older son.
 
Romans 9 refers to Israel’s past as a nation, not individual salvation.

[pTrader]

Those verses are not about predestination in salvation; they are about the birthright of the older son.
 
Romans 9 refers to Israel’s past as a nation, not individual salvation.

please read romans 9 carefully..

God is the one who determines or call His people..

Romans 9:25As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”i

[pTrader]

even the Gentiles are ordained to or appointed for eternal life:

Acts 13:48

New International Version
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[pTrader]

That's right. Christ will save His people.

But how do you become a member of Christ's people?

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31)

Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. (Mt. 16:24)

You become a part of Christ's people not by predestination, but by your own action (you should believe, you should deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow Him).

The truth is that people are choosen  and presdestined:

Eph 1:Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5heb predestined us for adoption to sonshipc through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
 
11In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


and they are called according to God's purpose:

Romans 8:28

New International Version
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

New Living Translation
And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.

English Standard Version
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

New American Standard Bible
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

King James Bible
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[barrister]

even the Gentiles are ordained to or appointed for eternal life:

Acts 13:48

New International Version
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

The original word for "appointed" is "tetagmenoi," which means to "prepare themselves."

... and all who prepared themselves for eternal life believed.

It does not mean that they were predestined to eternal life.

[pTrader]

The original word for "appointed" is "tetagmenoi," which means to "prepare themselves."

... and all who prepared themselves for eternal life believed.

It does not mean that they were predestined to eternal life.

τεταγμένοι (tetagmenoi) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 13:48 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν
NAS: as had been appointed to eternal
KJV: as many as were ordained to eternal
INT: as many as were appointed to life

Appointed sir..  http://biblehub.com/greek/tetagmenoi_5021.htm

[barrister]

Romans 8:28

New International Version
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Tama. 
 
Those who love Him have been called.  No predestination.