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Offline dpogs

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1590 on: Aug 16, 2015 at 11:41 PM »
Predistination is also Biblical since it is found in the Bible.


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph. 1:4-6 KJV

"chosen before the foundation of the world" and "predestined us unto the adoption of children... according to the good pleasure of His will"


9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph.1:9-14 KJV



28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom.8:28-30 KJV



---
When God created Man in His own image He created them with free will. God predestinate (there are elects) and man have free will. I know as human i cant comprehend how predistination and free will go hand in hand... but i wll qoute again this site - Both facts are equally true.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Rom.11:33-36


All glory must be to God not in us.
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1591 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 09:19 AM »
Ang dapat na tanong, ano ang babayaran kung predestined din naman pala? If predestined to heaven, dapat they do not sin.  If they do not sin, what has to be paid for?

Ang sabi nila, predestined, pero nagkakaroon ng sin.  Christ will pay for the sins only of those predestined to heaven.

Sana derecho na sa langit, pero ang gusto, sa lupa muna, magkakasala muna, tapos ililigtas, tapos pupunta sa langit.  Pero since the beginning of time, they were predestined to heaven, and it's impossible for them not to get to heaven.

Umikot pa ng round trip, imposible naman palang hindi sa langit ang punta.

Makes no sense.


===================================


Our earthly life is a testing ground. If we use our free will to follow Christ, we qualify for heaven.  Otherwise, we go to hell.

Which one makes more sense?

People are chossen to receive eternal life. Since may kasalanang dapat bayaran, nakapaloob po ang pagbabayad sa pamamagitan ng dugo.

Acts 20:28
 28Ingatan ninyo ang inyong sarili, at ang buong kawan, na sa kanila'y ginawa kayo ng Espiritu Santo na mga obispo, upang pakanin ninyo ang iglesia ng Panginoon na binili niya ng kaniyang sariling dugo.


John 1:12Datapuwa't ang lahat ng sa kaniya'y nagsitanggap, ay pinagkalooban niya sila ng karapatang maging mga anak ng Dios, sa makatuwid baga'y ang mga nagsisisampalataya sa kaniyang pangalan: 13Na mga ipinanganak na hindi sa dugo, ni sa kalooban ng laman, ni sa kalooban ng tao, kundi ng Dios.


If we use our free will to follow Christ, we qualify for heaven

Disqualify po yung lahat ng ng exercise ng free will. Maliwanag po ang verse 13,

13Na mga ipinanganak na hindi sa dugo, ni sa kalooban ng laman, ni sa kalooban ng tao, kundi ng Dios.

Kung  hindi  nilloob ng Dios kahit ka pa ipinanganak na Israelita, kahit nag exercise ka ng "Free Will", inde po ito mag-mamaterialize. What make sense is that niloob ba ng Dios na ikaw ay maligtas.


Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1592 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 11:25 AM »
People are chossen to receive eternal life. Since may kasalanang dapat bayaran, nakapaloob po ang pagbabayad sa pamamagitan ng dugo.

Tama.  Pag nabayaran na ang kasalanan, malinis ka na.
 
Wala ka nang dapat gawin kasi bayad na ang kasalanan mo?  Hindi. May obligasyon ka pa rin na gawin.
 
Ano ang dapat mong gawin pag malinis ka na?  Have faith in Christ, follow Him and continue to remain in Him.  If you do not, you will lose your salvation.
 
... he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Mt. 10:22) Who shall be saved? He that endureth to the end. Therefore, he who does not endure to the end will not be saved.
 
Therefore, there is a condition.  You must remain in Christ.  If you do not remain in Christ, you will be thrown into the fire ---
 
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:6)  The condition --- you must remain in Christ.
 
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (1 Cor. 15:2)  The condition --- if you hold firmly to the Word
 
Ang sabi, you are saved, "if."  This is not predestination.  You are saved because you believed and accepted the Gospel.  That is free will.  Then there is a condition --- if you hold firmly to the Word.  Free will na naman.   Because if you do not hold firmly to the word, you will lose your salvation.  Free will pa rin.
 
Free will sa umpisa, free will ang kasunod, free will pa rin hanggang wakas.
 
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. (Gal. 6:9)  Again, with a condition --- if we do not give up.  E di free will nga hanggang wakas.
 
Ano ang relevance ng salitang "if we do not give up" sa Calvinist?  Di ba even before the foundation of the world, saved na kayo, sigurado na kayo sa langit, at imposibleng hindi kayo mapunta sa langit?   
 
Maliwanag na unbiblical ang Calvinism. 
 
 

If we use our free will to follow Christ, we qualify for heaven

Disqualify po yung lahat ng ng exercise ng free will. Maliwanag po ang verse 13,

13Na mga ipinanganak na hindi sa dugo, ni sa kalooban ng laman, ni sa kalooban ng tao, kundi ng Dios.

Tama.  Dahil tinanggap niya ang Anak, siya ay naging anak ng Diyos sa kalooban ng Diyos. 
 
Paano kang naging anak ng Diyos?  --- sa kalooban ng Diyos.
 
Paano mong tinanggap ang Anak?  --- sa sarili mong free will.
 
Ang pagtanggap sa Anak ay free will ng tao, hindi predestination.
« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2015 at 11:39 AM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1593 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 01:06 PM »

Tama.  Pag nabayaran na ang kasalanan, malinis ka na.
 
Wala ka nang dapat gawin kasi bayad na ang kasalanan mo?  Hindi. May obligasyon ka pa rin na gawin.
 
Ano ang dapat mong gawin pag malinis ka na?  Have faith in Christ, follow Him and continue to remain in Him.  If you do not, you will lose your salvation.
 
... he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Mt. 10:22) Who shall be saved? He that endureth to the end. Therefore, he who does not endure to the end will not be saved.
 
Therefore, there is a condition.  You must remain in Christ.  If you do not remain in Christ, you will be thrown into the fire ---
 
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:6)  The condition --- you must remain in Christ.
 
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (1 Cor. 15:2)  The condition --- if you hold firmly to the Word
 
Ang sabi, you are saved, "if."  This is not predestination.  You are saved because you believed and accepted the Gospel.  That is free will.  Then there is a condition --- if you hold firmly to the Word.  Free will na naman.   Because if you do not hold firmly to the word, you will lose your salvation.  Free will pa rin.
 
Free will sa umpisa, free will ang kasunod, free will pa rin hanggang wakas.
 
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. (Gal. 6:9)  Again, with a condition --- if we do not give up.  E di free will nga hanggang wakas.
 
Ano ang relevance ng salitang "if we do not give up" sa Calvinist?  Di ba even before the foundation of the world, saved na kayo, sigurado na kayo sa langit, at imposibleng hindi kayo mapunta sa langit?   
 
Maliwanag na unbiblical ang Calvinism. 
 
 
 
Tama.  Dahil tinanggap niya ang Anak, siya ay naging anak ng Diyos sa kalooban ng Diyos. 
 
Paano kang naging anak ng Diyos?  --- sa kalooban ng Diyos.
 
Paano mong tinanggap ang Anak?  --- sa sarili mong free will.
 
Ang pagtanggap sa Anak ay free will ng tao, hindi predestination.


Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Sa verse above, maliwanag na yung predestination, calling, justification and glorification - All of these are God's work. At wala pong kinalaman ang free will ng tao diyan.


Anong klaseng Free Will ang sinasabe mo, ni wala nga tayong kakayang piliin ang Dios at saan ba ang tao papunta, kapahamakan.

Eph 2:1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Bakit ba nagkaroon ng Kaligtasan ang tao, di ba binuhay muna siya dahil patay tayo sa kasalana, kinahabagan at dahil sa biyaya ang tao ay naligtas.

1At kayo'y binuhay niya, nang kayo'y mga patay dahil sa inyong mga pagsalangsang at mga kasalanan, 2Na inyong nilakaran noong una ayon sa lakad ng sanglibutang ito, ayon sa pangulo ng mga kapangyarihan ng hangin, ng espiritu na ngayon ay gumagawa sa mga anak ng pagsuway; 3Sa gitna ng mga yaon, tayo rin naman, ng ibang panahon ay nangabubuhay sa mga kahalayan ng ating laman, na ating ginagawa ang mga pita ng laman at ng pagiisip, at tayo noo'y katutubong mga anak ng kagalitan, gaya naman ng mga iba: 4Nguni't ang Dios, palibhasa'y mayaman sa awa, dahil sa kaniyang malaking pagibig na kaniyang iniibig sa atin, 5Bagama't tayo'y mga patay dahil sa ating mga kasalanan, tayo'y binuhay na kalakip ni Cristo (sa pamamagitan ng biyaya kayo'y nangaligtas), 6At tayo'y ibinangong kalakip niya, at pinaupong kasama niya sa sangkalangitan, kay Cristo Jesus: 7Upang sa mga panahong darating ay maihayag niya ang dakilang kayamanan ng kaniyang biyaya sa kagandahang-loob sa atin kay Cristo Jesus: 8Sapagka't sa biyaya kayo'y nangaligtas sa pamamagitan ng pananampalataya; at ito'y hindi sa inyong sarili, ito'y kaloob ng Dios; 9Hindi sa pamamagitan ng mga gawa, upang ang sinoman ay huwag magmapuri. 10Sapagka't tayo'y kaniyang gawa, na nilalang kay Cristo Jesus para sa mabubuting gawa, na mga inihanda ng Dios nang una upang siya nating lakaran.


Makakatulong ba ang Free Will mo, kung kailangan kapang buhayin mula sa mga patay dahil sa pagsalangsang.

Ang totoo, tinanggap mo ang katotohang inde mo kayang iligtas ang sarili mo at utang mo rin sa Dios na tanggapin siya dahil tayo ay nilalang or nilikha ng Dios para sa mabubiting gawa.

Isang mabuting gawin ng tao ay tumanggap at manampalataya. It is alway the will of God.

God made you alive to receive grace. Faith is a gift from God. You were able to accept  and believe because that is the WILL of GOD for you to do, you are created to do good works.

Sa tinggin mo kaya mawawala yung salvationn  sa isang tao, inde, dahil it is the WILL of GOD ang nangyayari.

Phil 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

God is the one who is fulfilling..

and again,

Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.





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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1594 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 01:19 PM »
Para po sa aking kaliwanagan. Ano po ba ang sinasabing "free will"? Karamihan kasi ng nasasaad ay may kapangyarihan kang pumili. Kung wala kang pagpipilian, hindi na iyun "free will". Tama po ba?

Puwede kasi sumunod sa gusto ng Diyos at puwede rin namang hindi. Dahil dalawa ang puwedeng pagpilian, puwede natin sabihin na may laya tayo pumili o "free will". Kung isa lang puwedeng pagpilian hindi na "free will" tawag dun at ipinilit sa iyo na kailangan mong gawin.

Kung sinasabi ng Diyos na puwede siyang magpatawad ang ibig sabihin ay puwede pala ngayon na hindi ako sumunod at sa ibang araw sa hinaharap ay susunod ako.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1595 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 01:48 PM »
Para po sa aking kaliwanagan. Ano po ba ang sinasabing "free will"? Karamihan kasi ng nasasaad ay may kapangyarihan kang pumili. Kung wala kang pagpipilian, hindi na iyun "free will". Tama po ba?

Puwede kasi sumunod sa gusto ng Diyos at puwede rin namang hindi. Dahil dalawa ang puwedeng pagpilian, puwede natin sabihin na may laya tayo pumili o "free will". Kung isa lang puwedeng pagpilian hindi na "free will" tawag dun at ipinilit sa iyo na kailangan mong gawin.

Kung sinasabi ng Diyos na puwede siyang magpatawad ang ibig sabihin ay puwede pala ngayon na hindi ako sumunod at sa ibang araw sa hinaharap ay susunod ako.

sa mga talata sa baba at ibatay natin yung description ng Free Will ng karamihan, ano kaya ang pinipili ng tao..

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Kanino kayang will ang sinusunod ng tao, free will  ba niya?

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1596 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 07:14 PM »
Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

...and again,

Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Rom. 8:29-30 is among the strongest verses in favor of predestination, since the word "predestined" actualy appears in it.
 

Kaya nga ang sabi ko noong una pa lang:
 
Ilabas mo na sir yung Rom. 8:29-30, para mas interesting:

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 ;)

 
Hindi natin maiiwasan ang kaibahan ng interpretation sa predestination, kaya useless na pilitin natin ang isa't isa.
 
Ang sinasabi ko lang, may mga tao na dati nang alam ang Rom. 8:29-30, pero hindi pa rin naniniwala sa predestination.
 
In the bible, there are only two chapters where the word predestination appears: Romans 8:29-30, and Ephesians 1:5, 11. In both cases, the meaning is the same.
 
But the Calvinistic interpretation of predestination is not consistent with what the bible as a whole teaches.
 
In the bible, predestination refers to the sovereign plan of God for salvation.  This plan was predestined before the foundation of the world.  But individuals are not predestined to eternal salvation or damnation, because it is their free will that will determine if they will be saved or damned.
 
Tignan natin sa reply ko sa post ni sir dpogs. 
 
« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2015 at 11:05 PM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1597 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 07:15 PM »
Predistination is also Biblical since it is found in the Bible.

The issue is not whether the word "predestination" is found in the bible.

The issue is the proper understanding of the word "predestination" in the bible.
 
==================================
 
 
As I previously said, there are only two chapters where the word predestination appears: Romans 8:29-30, and Ephesians 1:5, 11.
 
Since sir dpogs started with Ephesians, I will also start with Ephesians.


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:4-6 KJV
"chosen before the foundation of the world" and "predestined us unto the adoption of children... according to the good pleasure of His will"

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph.1:9-14 KJV

You combined two different topics.

The first topic is for the Jewish Christians. The second topic is for Gentile Christians.

Huwag gamitin ang first topic para sa sarili kung ikaw ay Pilipino, hindi Hudyo.
 

========================================


1. The first topic, for Jewish Christians.  These are verses 4-12:

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:4-12)


Saul of Tarsus was a Jew who persecuted the early Christians. Saul referred to himself as "of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee. Then Saul was converted to Chritianity; his name became "Paul;" and he became the apostle to the Gentiles.

In these verses, Paul said "us" and "we," because he was referring to himself and others like him --- the Jewish Christians:

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.(Eph. 1:4) - The Israelite nation was chosen by God to be holy. The plan for the Israelite nation existed before the creation of the world. It does not mean that all Israelites were guaranteed salvation, because what existed before the foundation of the world was only the plan for the nation, not the guarantee of individual salvation.

What was the plan?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. (Rom. 1:16)

Salvation to all who have faith. Not to those who were predestined to indivdual salvation from the beginning of time, but salvation to all who freely have faith. First to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Eph. 1:4-6) - The Jews as a nation were in God's plan that existed since the beginning of time.

What was predestined was just the plan of salvation, not individual eternal salvation.

Predestined the Jewish nation to what? For adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ.

If the Jews have faith in Christ, they become adopted sons of the Father. This plan of salvation is an act of God's grace. This faith in Christ on the part of the believing Jews is an act of free will. If they do not have faith in Christ, then they do not become adopted sons of the Father.

What was predestined? The plan of the Father.

What requires free will? The Jews' act of faith in the Son. That's free will, not predestination.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. (Eph. 1:7-10) - Here, Paul says the Father made known to the Jews the mystery of His will.

And what is the mystery of the will of the Father which He purposed in Christ?  To bring unity to all things under Christ.

Paul further clarifies the meaning of the mystery:

4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 3:4-6)

The mystery of the will of the Father is the mystery of Christ. Meaning, the mystery that faith in Christ will bring salvation not only to the Jews but also to the Gentiles.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:11-12) - So, the Jews were chosen as part of God's plan of salvation --- "first to the Jew, then to the Gentile." (Rom. 1:16)

Through the Jewish nation will come Jesus the Savior, the faithful Jews will believe, then the faithful Gentiles will also believe, so that all can be saved provided they have faith in Christ.
 
That is the plan of God, and that plan was predestined by God. However, the faith of those who will believe in Christ arises from free will, not predestination.

Therefore, all have a chance to be saved. It is no longer limited to the Jews. But the condition is that they must have faith in Christ. That is free will, not predestination.

In predestination, only the exclusive club of the elect were chosen from the beginning of time to be saved. But in the bible, God wants all to be saved:

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

If God already chose before the foundation of the world who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, why would God still say that He wants all people to repent so that they can be saved?

God wants everyone to repent, including those who are predestined to go to hell, even if it's impossible for them to go to heaven?

Ano yon, umaarte lang ang Diyos? O mali lang talaga ang doctrine of predestination?


====================================


2. The second topic, for Gentile Christians. These are verses 13-14:

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13-14)


Now you see the shift from "us" to "you."

"You" refers to the Gentile Christians. --- 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. (Eph. 1:13)

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (Eph. 1:13) - When were you, the Gentile Christian, marked with a seal? When you believed, not before.

Therefore, for the Gentile Christian, his faith in Christ is required before he can have the seal. 

Which means he did not have the seal even before he was born, even before the foundation of the world.  He only gets the seal after he believes.

This is free will, not predestination.

The Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:14) - The Holy Spirit is the seal that marks us as belonging to God, until we are redeemed to eternal life.

 
==================================

 
Now for Romans 8:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom.8:28-30 KJV

What is the meaning of the word "predestined"?

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Rom. 8:29)

Before the foundation of the world, God had a predestined plan of salvation. God foreknew that some would freely receive Him; some would freely reject Him. But God did not know who were the specific individuals who would accept or reject Him.

As part of the plan, God decrees from everlasting to everlasting that those who will receive God will also receive Christ; and all who receive Christ will freely become "Christ-like." The predestination does not refer to the specific individuals; it only refers to the predestined plan of salvation.

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom. 8:30)

When the word predestine is used, it does not mean that God predetermines the specific individuals who will go to heaven or hell. Predestination simply refers to God's plan of salvation for all.

God knew that some will receive Him, and He also knew that some will not. Therefore, since God knew this beforehand, then God's predestined plan also included what will happen to those who will receive Him and to those who will not.

In Rom. 8:30, Paul illustrates a step-by-step process:

- God foreknew that some would receive Him.
- Those who received God, they used free will in accepting God.
- Those who received God, God called. That's after they already used free will in receiving God.
- Those whom God called, He justified. They are declared righteous because they followed God.
- Those whom God justified, He glorified. The end result is the glorification of those who freely chose to receive God.

Therefore, what is predestined is the process or the plan of salvation. Paul is not saying that from the foundation of the world, specific individuals are destined to heaven, while other specific individuals are doomed to hell.

Still in the book of Romans, all we have to do is to move 2 chapters forward and we will see how Paul explains how all can be justified:

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Rom. 10:9-13)

How can all be justified? By faith in Christ.

He does not say justification is brought about by predestination. He says profess your faith with your mouth; believe with your heart; and you are justified; then you will be saved. That's everyone --- Jew and Gentile --- not an elect group chosen from the foundation of the world.

That's free will, not predestination.
« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2015 at 10:54 PM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1598 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 10:07 PM »
Tanong ko lang sir barrister, if God knows the future how is it that He didnt know those who will be saved and not. How is it that He knows that only few can go to heaven and many will go to hell?

And the meaning of "endureth until the end will be saved" isnt He talking to 12 Apostles, not Jew or Gentile christian. And it only means physical salvation, aince Jesus speaks about the hardship and persecution of being an apostles sent to preach the word.

Re: predestination and free will, i believe this two exist hand in hand as God planned them from the beginning. Same as i believe that Jesus is both man and God, possessing attributes of full human except sins amd full God including all atteibutes of God.

So we have these differences
Salvation for me is OSAS, and for you it needs to be maintained.
Election for me is for 'few' elects and predestined, for you it is not since God didnt know who will be saved or not
Trinity for me is Biblical, for you it is unbibilical
God is all knowing including those who will be saved and not He knew it aince the beginning of time, for you God didnt know them.
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1599 on: Aug 17, 2015 at 10:21 PM »
Hindi na lang ako magco-comment sir, kasi hindi rin tayo magkakasundo.

Pero ito na lang isang point ang i-clarify ko:

 
Tanong ko lang sir barrister, if God knows the future how is it that He didnt know those who will be saved and not. How is it that He knows that only few can go to heaven and many will go to hell?

Remember that I do not believe God knows everything.  You will recall that I posted earlier that the doctrine of God's omniscience is unbiblical.

God knows the future, except only in matters where man's free will is violated.

How does God know that some will be saved and some will not?  Because God knows the future.

Why does God not know which individual will be saved?  Because God does not know the things that will violate man's free will.
 
========================================

Example, isang teacher sa high school.  Sabi ni teacher, she has predestined that those who will study hard will pass.

The predestination is the plan of passing those who learn, and failing those who don't.  The plan existed even before the schoolyear started.  But the act of studying is an act of free will by the students.

Does the teacher know beforehand that some will pass and some will fail?  Siyempre naman.

Does the teacher know beforehand the exact names of individual students who will pass or fail?  Of course not.
« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2015 at 11:03 PM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1600 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 12:04 AM »
okay, i think the big difference is our belief of attributes of God = omniscience.
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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1601 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 07:42 AM »
Nang kumain si Adan ng pinagbabawal na bunga, maari ba niyang sabihin na hindi niya kasalan dahil naudyukan lamang siya ni Eve? Maari ba niyang sabihin na hindi niya naexercise free will kasi dahil kay Eve?
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1602 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 08:18 AM »
for me Adan fully exercised his free will kasi pinagbawalan na nga sila kainin yun fruit pero ginawa pa rin nila.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1603 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 08:23 AM »
Nang kumain si Adan ng pinagbabawal na bunga, maari ba niyang sabihin na hindi niya kasalan dahil naudyukan lamang siya ni Eve? Maari ba niyang sabihin na hindi niya naexercise free will kasi dahil kay Eve?

Free will nya yun. Pero base sa sinasabi mong God knows all, he was screwed :)

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1604 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 08:30 AM »
for me Adan fully exercised his free will kasi pinagbawalan na nga sila kainin yun fruit pero ginawa pa rin nila.

ibig kong sabihin is naudyukan siya ni eve? parang eve works is to entice adan then adan eat the fruit. na exercise ba ni adan ang free will niya since naudyukan siya ni eve?
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1605 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 08:59 AM »
still choice mo pa rin kung magpapaudyok ka o hindi.  hindi naman siguro sya na hypnoticed o kaya na bribe ni Eve.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1606 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 09:23 AM »
ibig kong sabihin is naudyukan siya ni eve? parang eve works is to entice adan then adan eat the fruit. na exercise ba ni adan ang free will niya since naudyukan siya ni eve?

Adam was enticed by Eve?  Hindi yata ganon ang nasa bible.

Sa bible, binigay ni Eba kay Adan ang prutas, kinain naman ni Adan.  Walang entice-entice.

Ganito ang scenario:

While Eve was alone, she was deceived by the serpent.  Then she decided to eat the fruit.  Decided pa lang, hindi pa kumakain.

Next scene.  This time, Adam and Eve were together.  Eve saw the fruit, ate some, gave some to Adam, Adam also ate some. Walang entice.

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. (Gen. 3:6)

Kaya nga ang wika, Eve was deceived and became a sinner, but Adam was not deceived and became a sinner:

14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. (1 Tim. 2:14)

Si Eba, deceived by the serpent, then ate.  Si Adan, binigay lang ni Eba ang prutas, kinain na.  Adam was not deceived.
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2015 at 09:40 AM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1607 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 09:40 AM »
Ok. How about the serpent entice eve, did eve practice her free will knowing that the serpent lead Eve to eat the fruit.

There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1608 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 09:42 AM »
Of course Eve had free will.

Binola-bola siya ng serpent, then willingly ate.  She was not hypnotized like a zombie acting without consciousness.

Why did she eat?  Because she wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil. 
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2015 at 09:44 AM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1609 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM »


Rom. 8:29-30 is among the strongest verses in favor of predestination, since the word "predestined" actualy appears in it.
 

Kaya nga ang sabi ko noong una pa lang:
 
 
Hindi natin maiiwasan ang kaibahan ng interpretation sa predestination, kaya useless na pilitin natin ang isa't isa.
 
Ang sinasabi ko lang, may mga tao na dati nang alam ang Rom. 8:29-30, pero hindi pa rin naniniwala sa predestination.
 
In the bible, there are only two chapters where the word predestination appears: Romans 8:29-30, and Ephesians 1:5, 11. In both cases, the meaning is the same.
 
But the Calvinistic interpretation of predestination is not consistent with what the bible as a whole teaches.
 
In the bible, predestination refers to the sovereign plan of God for salvation.  This plan was predestined before the foundation of the world.  But individuals are not predestined to eternal salvation or damnation, because it is their free will that will determine if they will be saved or damned.
 
Tignan natin sa reply ko sa post ni sir dpogs.

As Roman 9:11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told

inde pa na e-exercise ang Free  Will may hinirang  na.

23At upang maipakilala ang kayamanan ng kaniyang kaluwalhatian sa mga sisidlan ng awa, na kaniyang inihanda nang una pa sa kaluwalhatian

naihanda na pala nang  una pa.


Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Kanino raw purpose? act ba yan ng Free Will? o Will ni GOD.



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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1610 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 10:05 AM »
Of course Eve had free will.

Binola-bola siya ng serpent, then willingly ate.  She was not hypnotized like a zombie acting without consciousness.

Why did she eat?  Because she wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil.

she ate because she was deceived.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1611 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 10:15 AM »
Of course Eve had free will.

Binola-bola siya ng serpent, then willingly ate.  She was not hypnotized like a zombie acting without consciousness.

Why did she eat?  Because she wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil. 

Okay, the serpent lead Eve to eat the fruit and malinaw na Eve practices her free will.

If God lead me to believe the Gospel and i believe, did I practice free will?
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1612 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 10:23 AM »

@ barrister

Pano maliligtas  ang tao pag pinairal niya yung tinatawag niyang Free Will?

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1613 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 11:26 AM »
Hindi na lang ako magco-comment sir, kasi hindi rin tayo magkakasundo.

Pero ito na lang isang point ang i-clarify ko:

 
Remember that I do not believe God knows everything.  You will recall that I posted earlier that the doctrine of God's omniscience is unbiblical.

God knows the future, except only in matters where man's free will is violated.

How does God know that some will be saved and some will not?  Because God knows the future.

Why does God not know which individual will be saved?  Because God does not know the things that will violate man's free will.
 
========================================

Example, isang teacher sa high school.  Sabi ni teacher, she has predestined that those who will study hard will pass.

The predestination is the plan of passing those who learn, and failing those who don't.  The plan existed even before the schoolyear started.  But the act of studying is an act of free will by the students.

Does the teacher know beforehand that some will pass and some will fail?  Siyempre naman.

Does the teacher know beforehand the exact names of individual students who will pass or fail?  Of course not.

Dose the Teacher knows who are children of promise or  children of Abraham ? Siyempre  naman.

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Does the Teacher know beforehand the exact names of individual who are His  people?  Of course yes

3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

“Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine.” (Isaiah 43:1)

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1614 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 04:54 PM »
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Tama.  Today salvation has come to this house.
 
Zacchaeus repented of his sins.  Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house..."
 
When did salvation come to this house?  Today.  Not before the foundation of the world.  It came today.

Why today?  Because Zacchaeus repented today.  That's free will, not predestination.
 

=================================


3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Tapos na tayo diyan sir.
 
That's John 10:3.
 
Is being a sheep an unchangeable condition?  No.
 
Continue to John 10:25-26, then to John 10:37-38 ---
 
John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Is being Christ's sheep an unchangeable condition, or do we become Christ's sheep by our own actions?

Continue the chapter to John 10:37-38:

37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

In the prior verses, Jesus said only the sheep believe. But in these verses, Jesus is encouraging the non-sheep to believe.

Why encourage them to believe, if being sheep is a predestined, unchangeable condition?

It is clear that being sheep is accomplished by believing, not by pre-ordained condition.

 
===================================

 
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine.” (Isaiah 43:1)

Tama.  God redeemed the nation of Israel from Egypt.  God called the Israel nation by name.  The nation Israel is God's.
 
This is not about individual salvation.  This is about the nation Israel in relation to the Egyptians:
 
In Exodus, God said he will redeem the Israelites from the Egyptians:
 
6 “Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. (Ex. 6:6)
 
Now we go to your Isaiah quote:
 
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you.  When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze. 3 For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead. (Is. 43:1-3)
« Last Edit: Aug 20, 2015 at 08:01 AM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1615 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 05:17 PM »
As Roman 9:11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told

inde pa na e-exercise ang Free  Will may hinirang  na.

Tama.  Hindi pa pinapanganak si Jacob, hinirang na siya para maging pagmumulan ng lahi kung saan ipapanganak si Hesus.
 
Hindi hinirang para mapunta sa langit, hinirang lang para maging lahi sa lupa.
 
Romans 9 is about the Israelite bloodline, not individual savation.  Tapos na tayo diyan sir:
 
That's why Esau was firstborn, yet Jacob was elected, because God is not limited to any rules of heredity. God is sovereign and will choose whom he wants.

Jacob was elected to go to heaven?

No. Jacob's line was elected as the ascendant of Jesus. It is about the role of Israel as a nation in God's plan, not about individual salvation.

===================================
   
23At upang maipakilala ang kayamanan ng kaniyang kaluwalhatian sa mga sisidlan ng awa, na kaniyang inihanda nang una pa sa kaluwalhatian

naihanda na pala nang una pa.

That's Rom. 9:23. 
 
Predestination?  No.  The vessel ("sisidlan") can repent if it wants.  That's free will.
 
If the vessel repents, the potter will reconsider.  That's free will.
 
Tapos na tayo diyan sir:
 
The vessel cannot complain to the potter. If the vessel is bad, the potter can destroy it.

But here's the point that you missed --- the vessel has the ability to repent.

If the vessel is bad, yet changes and turns out good later, the potter will reconsider and will not destroy it.

Can the vessel change so that the potter will reconsider? Yes. That's Jeremiah 18, with the same analogy of the potter ---

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. (Jer. 18:1-10)


In Jeremiah 18, we see that the potter can reconsider if he sees that the vessel changes or repents.

Bearing in mind that the vessels have the free will to change, and the potter can destroy the vessel that was originally good but became bad, or form into another vessel the one that became good, let's continue to Romans 9:22 onwards ---

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:22-24)


In verse 22 --- The vessels of wrath. The potter endured with much patience, wating for the vessels to change into good vessels. If the vessels change into good, the potter will not destroy them.

In verse 23 --- The vessels of mercy. The potter made good vessels, but if the vessels become bad, the potter will destroy them.

The vessel can change from bad into good, and the potter will reconsider and will not destroy it.

That's not predestination, that's free will.


Final evidence that the vessel has the free will to change itself ---

20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. (Rom. 9:20-21)

Clearly, the vessel can change itself. Cleanse yourself from the dishonorable, and you become a good vessel, set apart as holy.

That's free will. Not predestination.

===================================
 
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Tama.  We are called according to God's plan of salvation. 
 
The plan is that we should believe in Christ, and we will be saved.  That's free will. 
 
 
Kanino raw purpose? act ba yan ng Free Will? o Will ni GOD.

Kanino raw purpose?  God's purpose in His plan of salvation.
 
God's will --- The plan of salvation. 
 
Man's will --- The free will to believe in Christ.
 
 
 
What was predestined? The plan of the Father.

What was not predestined?  Man's choice, to believe or not to believe in the Son.  That's free will, not predestination.
 
 
 
==================================
 
 
Paulit-ulit ka na lang yata, sir.
 
Nauubusan ka na yata ng katuwiran...   ;)
 
« Last Edit: Aug 18, 2015 at 05:25 PM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1616 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 05:36 PM »
Quote
Romans 9 is about the Israelite bloodline, not individual savation.  Tapos na tayo diyan sir:

Romans 9 is about God calling and election sir.


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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1617 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 05:40 PM »
Romans 9 is about God calling and election sir.

Ok lang kung iyon ang paniniwala mo sir.
 
Kaya nga nilahat ko ang Romans 9, 10 and 11, para ipakita ang logical progression in Israel's past, present and future.
 
If you have a different view, then you have a different view.

Offline pTrader

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1618 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 05:50 PM »
Quote
That's Rom. 9:23. 
 
Predestination?  No.  The vessel ("sisidlan") can repent if it wants.  That's free will.
 
If the vessel repents, the potter will reconsider.  That's free will.
 
Tapos na tayo diyan sir:

Inde mo ata naiintindihan ang nasa talata:

23At upang maipakilala ang kayamanan ng kaniyang kaluwalhatian sa mga sisidlan ng awa, na kaniyang inihanda nang una pa sa kaluwalhatian

yung mga sisidlan ng awa ay naihanda na nang una pa.

at walang ganitong paliwanag ang Romans 9 na may ganyan at lalo na po yung ini-insist mong Free Will.

If the vessel repents, the potter will reconsider.  That's free will.

may magagawa ba ang free will kung ang ibinilang ka ng Dios bilang kanya at tinawag na His People.

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:


“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”i


Ano kinalaman mo sa Will ng Dios o ang kinalaman ng free will mo kung tawagin ka ng Dios na 'my people' at 'my loved one'.

Free will ba ng tao na tawagin siya ng Dios na 'my people' at 'my loved one'?

@barrister, yung Romans 9 inde pa tapos sa iyo.


Nagsanib pwersa ba ang tao at Dios para piliin ng Dios ang Kanyang 'my people' at 'my loved one' ? Sinabe ba ng Free Will ng  tao na isama siya sa vessels of mercy?


Offline dpogs

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1619 on: Aug 18, 2015 at 08:20 PM »
Barrister: no individual predestination, yes free will
Ptrader: yes individual predestination, no free will
Dpogs: both yes
There is none righteous, no not one.