Author Topic: LGBT Issues - Religious Version (Read 53310 times)

dpogs · « **Reply #120 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 08:48 PM »

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 08:22 PM

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." - 1 Timothy 2:11-15

Bawal pala maging boss ng lalake ang babae. Nasa impyerno na ata si Cory.

"Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior." - Titus 2:9-10

Okay lang pala magkaroon ng slaves.

"“When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge in her body is blood, she shall be in her menstrual impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean. And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. And whoever touches anything on which she sits shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. Whether it is the bed or anything on which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening. ..." - Leviticus 15:19-30

Naku. Kapag may nakita kang babaeng bumibili ng sanitary napkin, mga unclean ang mga yan!

Slavery is not specifically condemns in the Bible... But those who experience freedom throuigh Christ must be the first one to know that slavery must end. :-)

Wala naman sinabi sa Bible na kapag naging leader ang babae ay mapupunta siya sa hell... Meron ba?

Anyway...

Slavery and church leaderahip is another topic...

Show to us a Bible verse that approves same sex intercourse/relationship.

dpogs · « **Reply #121 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 09:02 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 22, 2015 at 08:30 PM

Bakit tayo napunta sa hetero marriage, slavery and menstruation?

Iniiwasan mo ang homosexuality verses para hindi mahalatang hindi mo kayang sagutin?

+1

Klaus Weasley · « **Reply #122 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 09:41 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 22, 2015 at 08:30 PM

Bakit tayo napunta sa hetero marriage, slavery and menstruation?

Iniiwasan mo ang homosexuality verses para hindi mahalatang hindi mo kayang sagutin?

No. I'm just making a point. You point out verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, at least in your interpretation of it. But there are lots of verses in the Bible that condemn things like women's rights, working on a Sabbath, eating pork, etc.

Again, lots of verses in the Bible that is subject to interpretation depending on the translation and the prejudices of the persons doing the interpretation. This has been the case ever since a group of men (who have their own prejudices and beliefs) about a thousand or so years ago got together and decided which books to include in the Bible and since then has been subjected to interpretation and translations by millions of people for centuries.

If the Bible can be CORRECTLY and OBJECTIVELY interpreted, eh di, iisang relihiyon tayo ngayon kasi malinaw at walang pagtataluhan ng interpretation. Eh, hindi eh. Ang dami tayong relihiyon at denomination ng Christianity na kani-kanila ang interpretation ng Bible. How can you say that your interpretation is correct?

The truth is: Lahat tayo may sariling interpretation sa Bibliya. Lahat tayo namimili kung ano ang susundin at hindi susundin (pupunta ba kayo sa bahay ni Erap para ma-stone niyo siya to death?). We bring our own prejudices into our reading of the Bible. That's why both the KKK and Martin Luther King Jr. have read the Bible and found verses supporting/inspiring their cause.

I know people who are Biblical scholars, who studied the Bible front and back and read various translations and interpretations over the years as well as researching about the historical background of the Bible and a few of them have turned atheist because of that.

bumblebee · « **Reply #123 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 09:43 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Jul 22, 2015 at 07:46 PM

attraction to opposite sex, same sex, minor, inanimate object, AI, animals... we all have a desire... now whether those desire are choice or not... lets talk about that sa kabialgn thread...

im not confuse kaya ko nga nasabi na ang homosexuality is a choice because it is an act... kung nagbabasa ka sana ng mga post ko whehter being homosexual a choice or not... just read my post sa other thread kung ang pagiging homosexual ba ay choice or not... but under this thread all i can say is homosexuality is a choice... having sex with opposite or same gender is always a choice... having a relationship with oppoiste or same gender is always a choice...

and barrister shows how ridicoluis is Klaus' interpreation of those verses... and we're waiting on his reply pero qoute nga lang ng comedian ang nabasa namin saka definition ng bigot

same sex intercourse is prohibited in the Bible:

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (Lev. 18:22)

26 For this reason wGod gave them up to xdishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, ymen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Rom. 1:26-27)

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous2 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, (I Cor. 6:9)\

now... how about you.... what's your religion (if meron man) says about homosexuality?

Forgive the short reply, I'm using a mobile device. I'm a semi practicing catholic, if there's such a thing.

Please clarify, are you saying having desires apart from the opposite sex is natural and is ok as long as you don't act on it?

Klaus Weasley · « **Reply #124 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 09:58 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 22, 2015 at 08:36 PM

Why would you even need a religion? Just be an atheist and get it over with.

My problem is about people who think they can prove that the bible is ok with gay sex acts.

Now if they just say they don't believe in the bible, then that's fine with me.

TBH, I'm fairly indifferent in what the Bible says. In fact, I started questioning the whole concept of organized religion when I started actually reading the Bible from beginning to end.

My point in disputing and re-interpreting it is for the benefit of people who put a lot of stock in it and points to it as the reason they are against gay rights, same sex marriage, homosexuality, etc.

DVD_Freak · « **Reply #125 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 10:06 PM »

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 09:41 PM

No. I'm just making a point. You point out verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, at least in your interpretation of it. But there are lots of verses in the Bible that condemn things like women's rights, working on a Sabbath, eating pork, etc.

Again, lots of verses in the Bible that is subject to interpretation depending on the translation and the prejudices of the persons doing the interpretation. This has been the case ever since a group of men (who have their own prejudices and beliefs) about a thousand or so years ago got together and decided which books to include in the Bible and since then has been subjected to interpretation and translations by millions of people for centuries.

If the Bible can be CORRECTLY and OBJECTIVELY interpreted, eh di, iisang relihiyon tayo ngayon kasi malinaw at walang pagtataluhan ng interpretation. Eh, hindi eh. Ang dami tayong relihiyon at denomination ng Christianity na kani-kanila ang interpretation ng Bible. How can you say that your interpretation is correct?

The truth is: Lahat tayo may sariling interpretation sa Bibliya. Lahat tayo namimili kung ano ang susundin at hindi susundin (pupunta ba kayo sa bahay ni Erap para ma-stone niyo siya to death?). We bring our own prejudices into our reading of the Bible. That's why both the KKK and Martin Luther King Jr. have read the Bible and found verses supporting/inspiring their cause.

I know people who are Biblical scholars, who studied the Bible front and back and read various translations and interpretations over the years as well as researching about the historical background of the Bible and a few of them have turned atheist because of that.

You make logical points. So I gather by mentioning slavery, menstruation, stoning, etc....you are implying that like those you have mentioned, the Bible forbidding homosexuality is no longer practical in today's times. That is your interpretation. But does the Bible say implicitly that it promotes homosexuality? I think yun naman ang purpose ng thread right?

Why not mention verses that in your interpretation promotes homosexuality? Just because you think one thing is no longer practical today merits another with the same conviction. Make a case specifically dapat that the Bible supports homosexuality by citing verses.

dpogs · « **Reply #126 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 10:20 PM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 22, 2015 at 09:43 PM

Forgive the short reply, I'm using a mobile device. I'm a semi practicing catholic, if there's such a thing.

Please clarify, are you saying having desires apart from the opposite sex is natural and is ok as long as you don't act on it?

Hmmm papaano ko ba sasabihin... Each of us have desires whatever it is... We have both good desires and bad desires... Para sa akin desires palang namanyan eh... We still have a choicewhether to act on it or not.. Your having sexual desire to your neighbours wife that is bad desire but youre not commiting any sins unless you act on it - you fantasize about her you masturbate, kapag dumadaan nakakadalawang lingon ka lagi and then un pangalawang lingon at titig takes longer... It is bad desires because the bible never approves adultery. Same to homosexuality.

Klaus Weasley · « **Reply #127 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 10:27 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Jul 22, 2015 at 10:20 PM

Your having sexual desire to your neighbours wife that is bad desire but youre not commiting any sins unless you act on it - you fantasize about her you masturbate, kapag dumadaan nakakadalawang lingon ka lagi and then un pangalawang lingon at titig takes longer... It is bad desires because the bible never approves adultery. Same to homosexuality.

Remove the Bible and religious objections. Anong masama sa homosexuality? In adultery, you lie and betray your spouse and the spouse of the person you're committing adultery with. You hurt them in the process. But two consenting adults na single na walang sinasaktan na same-sex, anong masama doon? Wala akong nakikita.

DVD_Freak · « **Reply #128 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 10:31 PM »

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 10:27 PM

Remove the Bible and religious objections. Anong masama sa homosexuality? In adultery, you lie and betray your spouse and the spouse of the person you're committing adultery with. You hurt them in the process. But two consenting adults na single na walang sinasaktan na same-sex, anong masama doon? Wala akong nakikita.

Lipat mo sa Big Talk Klaus. You started the thread sa Religion section. Hindi pwede remove the Bible and religious objections. You're violating your own thread.

barrister · « **Reply #129 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 10:38 PM »

Sir Klaus, it's not that easy to drag me into a new topic that you prefer.

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 09:41 PM

No. I'm just making a point. You point out verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, at least in your interpretation of it. But there are lots of verses in the Bible that condemn things like women's rights, working on a Sabbath, eating pork, etc.

So you've made your point. Now, back to the homosexual verses.

Kaya mo bang sagutin o hindi?

Kasi pag sinabi mong hindi, e di tapos na tayo.

Pero pag sinabi mong oo, e di magandang diskusyon ito...

=====================================

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 09:58 PM

TBH, I'm fairly indifferent in what the Bible says. In fact, I started questioning the whole concept of organized religion when I started actually reading the Bible from beginning to end.

My point in disputing and re-interpreting it is for the benefit of people who put a lot of stock in it and points to it as the reason they are against gay rights, same sex marriage, homosexuality, etc.

No, your objective was to show that all bible-believers are stupid, ignorant hicks who would not be able to answer when challenged.

We've clearly seen where that mindset got you...

==================================

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 10:27 PM

Remove the Bible and religious objections. Anong masama sa homosexuality?

You start a religious thread and now you don't want to discuss religion?

I knew you would give up, but I didn't expect you to give up so soon...

dpogs · « **Reply #130 on:** Jul 22, 2015 at 11:40 PM »

Quote from: Klaus Weasley on Jul 22, 2015 at 10:27 PM

Remove the Bible and religious objections. Anong masama sa homosexuality? In adultery, you lie and betray your spouse and the spouse of the person you're committing adultery with. You hurt them in the process. But two consenting adults na single na walang sinasaktan na same-sex, anong masama doon? Wala akong nakikita.

Err

nagpost lang ako sa ginawa mong thread na LGBT Issues - Religious Version... tapos sasabihin mo sa akin remove the Bible and religious objections...

bumblebee · « **Reply #131 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Jul 22, 2015 at 10:20 PM

Hmmm papaano ko ba sasabihin... Each of us have desires whatever it is... We have both good desires and bad desires... Para sa akin desires palang namanyan eh... We still have a choicewhether to act on it or not.. Your having sexual desire to your neighbours wife that is bad desire but youre not commiting any sins unless you act on it - you fantasize about her you masturbate, kapag dumadaan nakakadalawang lingon ka lagi and then un pangalawang lingon at titig takes longer... It is bad desires because the bible never approves adultery. Same to homosexuality.

Ok, so based on your beliefs, it is normal to have desires, meron lang category na good or bad. Some questions, why is desire for the same sex bad? I know you pointed to verses that prohibits it. But why? Second, since having desires is natural, you're saying this is something you can't "cure"?

dpogs · « **Reply #132 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 07:26 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM

Ok, so based on your beliefs, it is normal to have desires, meron lang category na good or bad. Some questions, why is desire for the same sex bad? I know you pointed to verses that prohibits it. But why? Second, since having desires is natural, you're saying this is something you can't "cure"?

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM

Ok, so based on your beliefs, it is normal to have desires, meron lang category na good or bad.

YES.
we all have desires good or bad... in fact we are all born with a corruptible body... we all have a tendency (desire) to commit sin... no one teaches us to be bad or gumawa ng kasalanan pero maari tayong maimpluwensiyahan o mamulat sa ginagawa natin na akala ay tama pero kasalanan pala... same for homosexuality...

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM

Some questions, why is desire for the same sex bad?

the Bible describes homosexuality as sinful (even if it doesnt hurt someone) - desire for same sex
the Bible describes looking to a woman lustfully as sinful (even if it doesnt hurt someone) - desire for opposite sex
the Bible describes murder as sinful - desire to kill
the Bible describes gluttony as sinful - desire to eat more food

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM

I know you pointed to verses that prohibits it. But why?

i believe the Word of God as the final authority when it comes to my faith and way of life.

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM

Second, since having desires is natural, you're saying this is something you can't "cure"?

yes having desires is natural... having a desire for sexual intercourse is natural.... but... but having a desire for same sex intercourse is unnatural according to the Bible.

pero take note hindi sinasabi sa Bible na if someting is unnatural it is automatically a sin. the bible says homosexuality is a sin (period), also the Bible describes homosexuality as unnatural. wala tayong mababasa na ganito "homosexuality is a sin because it is unnatural". <Male and Female were created to connect with one another in a particular way - qouted>.

If God approves male-to-male sex He could have made our anus to produce natural lubricants

. But no, God made our anus with enough sensors (sensitive enough) to detect and control our bowel movement. kasi kung walang pakiramdam yang anus natin eh di mo mamalayan na tumatae ka na pala. saka wala nag gustong tumae kasi hindi na tayo makakasigaw ng "success" after natin tumae. kaya kalokohan yang sinasabi na bakit ginawa ng Diyos na sensitive ang anus. <The fact that there are nerve endings there has nothing to do with anal sex, but with defecation. Defecation is usually pleasurable; we're all familiar with the sense of relief after relieving ourselves. - qouted>

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 06:15 AM

... you're saying this is something you can't "cure"?

nope... it is something that we can "overcome"

secular - it is some sort of will over body, will over desire

spiritual - I believe maari nating tanggihan o maovercome ang anumang masasamang desires (including homosexuality) only by the grace of God.

bumblebee · « **Reply #133 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 07:40 AM »

^I mean why is homosexuality a sin? Did the Bible say?

Also, I thought you said having desires is natural. How come having desire for the opposite sex is unnatural now? Naguluhan ako.

tony · « **Reply #134 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 07:56 AM »

afaik, being pabakla sa kilos is not.....it is when a man sleeps and have sex with another man that is...

dpogs · « **Reply #135 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 07:58 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 07:40 AM

^I mean why is homosexuality a sin? Did the Bible say?

Also, I thought you said having desires is natural. How come having desire for the opposite sex is unnatural now? Naguluhan ako.

a man having two hands is natural but but if its both left then it is unnatural. a man having sexual desire is natural but a man having a sexual desire for man is unnatural.

bumblebee · « **Reply #136 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 08:07 AM »

^So hindi nga natural. Akala ko ba you have no problems with homosexuals? Only the act?

dpogs · « **Reply #137 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 08:21 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 08:07 AM

^So hindi nga natural. Akala ko ba you have no problems with homosexuals? Only the act?

yeah... i have no problems with homosexuals... i have problem with homosexuality... the Bible teach to love one another (pero wlang sinasabi ang Bible na to have sex with one another).

kapag sinabi ko bang hindi natural na isa lang ang kamay ngmother ko eh may problema na ako sa mther ko? porket sinabi ko na hindi natural ang homosexualty eh assume mo na agad na may problema ako sa isang homosexual?

homosexual can buy any product from my business. they can use any service i offer. they can enter into my house, they can go to church... but if they request to include me and my business in their homosexualities then i wont accept or grant their request, if they will use my house for homosexuality then i wont allow them inside my house.

the same for catholics... any catholics can buy any products, use any service i offer... but if they want to use any of my properties for their cahtolic activities then i refuse and i dont want to be part of that activitites... using my car for procession, using my lot for a catholic mass, using my house for nobena - NO.

bumblebee · « **Reply #138 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 08:39 AM »

So you're merely tolerating them, pro deep inside, they have a problem?

tony · « **Reply #139 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 08:48 AM »

not for us people to judge, it is between the homosexual and his God....

dpogs · « **Reply #140 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 09:15 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 08:39 AM

So you're merely tolerating them, pro deep inside, they have a problem?

lahat tayo may problema na dinadala... parepareho tayo pagdating sa ganoong level...

sa mga kinikilos ng trangender na malambot malambing na galaw i can tolerate them...
sa mga kilos na malababae o malalalake ayos lang yan... i can tolerate that action...

sa mga homosexuals... i really dont have any idea kung kung paano malalaman ang isang homosexual sa office, sa bahay, kapitbahay namin malalaman ko lang kong naging open sila sa pagiging homosexual nila ior sabihin nila...ni hindi ako mag aassume na ang dalawang lalaki na laging magkasama ay homosexual unless sabihin nila sa iyo ng harapan... wala naman nagbago love, treat, talk to them as usual kung ano dapat ginagawa ng isang tao... wala man magbabago... but i cannot tolerate homosexuality how i can tolerate particular activity if its considered a sin...

if i tolerate homosexuality then i must tolerate lustful thinking too. or killing.. this is not about "person" this is about "activity/practice"...

kung sinabi lang sana ng Bible that we need to tolerate homosexuality then i will tolerate homosexuality... one is clear though - the Bible said that we need to love one another including homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, etc - note: how can we love a person if we're allowing them to continue doing what we know is wrong.

so @bumblebee... bilang isang catholic how do you view homosexuality? ano ginamit mong takalan to have that view?

bumblebee · « **Reply #141 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 09:46 AM »

Thanks, for the lengthy explanation. I take that as a yes? Yes?

I was born Catholic. Like I said, I'm a semi-practicing Catholic. I go to Church, I pray. That's it. My view on homosexuality does not depend on my "being" a Catholic. I also don't think something is wrong with being a homosexual.

Nelson de Leon · « **Reply #142 on:** Jul 23, 2015 at 10:40 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Jul 23, 2015 at 09:46 AM

Thanks, for the lengthy explanation. I take that as a yes? Yes?

I was born Catholic. Like I said, I'm a semi-practicing Catholic. I go to Church, I pray. That's it. My view on homosexuality does not depend on my "being" a Catholic. I also don't think something is wrong with being a homosexual.

And what's your view re homosexual acts like same sex intercourse?