Topic: Speaker DIY'ers

[Gino]

Thanks for the timely advice. I'll test the sealer drying time too.

[RXV]

You guys got any suggestions on what AN driver size I should get for a bookshelf build for a small 22 sqm room about 8 feet in height?

6.5" for me would be optimum. Kapag 8" naman, parang masyadong malaki for bookshelf speakers especially if your planning to put it on top of a table or for nearfield listening. Pwede rin yung 3" but of course don't expect much bass to come out of it (compared to it's bigger brothers) lalo na kung bookshelf lang gagawin mo.
Kung kaya mo floorstanders, floorstanders na lang para pati bass buo, based on the design baffle of AN.

Yung can ask assistance from Bob Brines by either posting in DIYAudio or contact him directly (he has his own website)

[timber715]

Gino, ingat ingat lang sa sanding sealer, that's where I did a slight mistake and had to re-sand EVERYTHING again.

If it's Ace Hardware brand, don't expect it to dry as quick as the instructions say. It will dry, but it easily and quickly clogs sandpaper (it's actually very tricky to sand, dapat pantay ang pag-sand mo to all areas). Slow curing time for me.

But for me, I think you need sanding sealer, para pantay ang stain mo. Based on my experience, if you don't use sanding sealer, expect areas with bigger pores and more grain (such as the ply lines) to absorb more stain and therefore appear darker than the other areas. A necessary evil if I would say so.

The sanding sealer with the Ace brand is Oil based, hence the drying time is 24 hours. I use lacquer based sanding sealer when possible such as the ones from Boysen.
Ace sells this para mas mag match sa other finish in their line which is oil based as well. But using lacquer based finish under oil based ones is fine as long as they given proper drying time. The problem arises when lacquer based finish is used over oil based finishes...
Once properly dried they both sand easy, unless the coat is too thick and part has not properly cured or dried.

[RXV]

You're right, thorough drying time is of utmost importance. I actually made my second attempt 48 hours to cure just to be sure. And still it gummed up my sandpaper (some parts that were thicker).

The only reason why I bought Ace Sanding Sealer was because I also bought Ace Polyurethane varnish, para siguradong match at compatible.

If not for that, I would have also bought the Boysen na lang, much cheaper.

Oh well. Thanks!

[Gino]

1) Please confirm...oil based finish over laquer sealer is ok. Laquer finish over oil based sealer is not ok.

2) How much time does Boysen laquer sanding sealer need to dry?

3) I will be using Boysen sanding sealer. Do I use this as is or does it need to be thinned?

[deist]

Gino, ang kinis na, parang pwet ng baby 

I suggest you chamfer the backside of the driver holes like in the photos below. This is a common practice now among DIYers, by doing it the soundwaves entering the enclosure will not hit a "wall".This will avoid baffle mouth diffraction & distortion.





hope this helps.

[RXV]

1) Please confirm...oil based finish over laquer sealer is ok. Laquer finish over oil based sealer is not ok.

2) How much time does Boysen laquer sanding sealer need to dry?

3) I will be using Boysen sanding sealer. Do I use this as is or does it need to be thinned?

Sir Timber may answer those questions for you

But for the stains (in my opinion):
The Boysen (as well as brands such as Bronco and Hudson) are way cheaper, but for some reason, I'm not that impressed with the stain finish, parang may halong paint (it hides the grains, slightly unnatural look). (FYI: I haven't literally tried ALL color stains naman)

I like the more expensive stains locally such as Konig, Zar, and Ace (based on actual testing/demo), the stain looks more natural for me without hiding/sealing the grains of the wood. And also, I think Konig sells a small (1/4L?) can version, so hindi masakit sa bulsa. Kasya sigurado sa bookshelf mo.

But for darker stains such as mahogany, pwede na rin yung Boysen. Best if you go to Home Depot/Wilcon and have a demo there (pumapayag naman sila). Best if you bring a small piece of your wood tapos i-stain on the spot (iba iba kasi absorption rates ng wood e).

[remington]

1) Please confirm...oil based finish over laquer sealer is ok. Laquer finish over oil based sealer is not ok.

2) How much time does Boysen laquer sanding sealer need to dry?

3) I will be using Boysen sanding sealer. Do I use this as is or does it need to be thinned?

bili ka sir oil wood stain na gusto mong color from a hardware store near you boysen maganda then lacquer sanding sealer and ang pang finish mo kung flat lang dead flat clear mix with lacquer thinner and lacquer flo damihan mo sir lacquer flo para hindi mamuti kasi maulan ngayon, kung glossy finish naman clear gloss lacquer mix with thinner and flo.

procedure: 1. haluin wood statin of desired color and apply it directly to wood by paint brush and allow 15 to 20 minutes drying time then wipe off excess stain pantayin mo lang sir ang punas para pantay ang color kung type mo mas darker repeat it again.
2. apply lacquer sanding sealer mix with lacquer thinner repeatedly untill mag sara mga grain ng wood or as desired sanding with waterproof sand paper #240 inbetween coats.
3. Mix the dead flat clear or the clear gloss lacquer with thinner and lacquer flo apply repeatedly as desired sanding with #360 or 400 sanding paper inbetween coats. kung may spray gun at air compressor ka sir mas maganda magiging finish nyan pantay ang kulay.

pwede na 2 to 3 minutes drying time inbetween coats ng sanding sealer ang finishing medyo matagal kasi may lacquer flo mga 10 to 20 minutes siguro pag mainit ang panahon
kung polyuretrhane finish naman hudson top coat kunin mo sir meron din polyurethane sealer mas mabilis magpasara ng grain ng wood pero medyo iba application matagal drying time

[Gino]

RXV, ang Konig ba mayroon sa small stores or sa Ace Hardware lang?

[RXV]

RXV, ang Konig ba mayroon sa small stores or sa Ace Hardware lang?

I actually bought it at Wilcon. Sa Ace hardware, I'm not sure since they carry their own Ace brand (1L). Sa tabi-tabi hardware stores, probably not

One small can of Konig (half pint) cost less than P300, but it's already enough to stain my floorstanders.

They also, have poly varnishes in half-pint sizes (gloss, semi-gloss, satin, matte) perfect for those small projects.

[Tsnad]

I actually bought it at Wilcon. Sa Ace hardware, I'm not sure since they carry their own Ace brand (1L). Sa tabi-tabi hardware stores, probably not

One small can of Konig (half pint) cost less than P300, but it's already enough to stain my floorstanders.

They also, have poly varnishes in half-pint sizes (gloss, semi-gloss, satin, matte) perfect for those small projects.

san na sir yung picture ng speaker mo....

[audiojunkie]

Sa aking OB baffle, I applied wood conditioner before applying polyurethane stain (both same brand).

Parehas din ba yan sa sanding filler?

[RXV]

san na sir yung picture ng speaker mo....

Soon sir, medyo madugo kasi yung finishing e, I had to re-do the sanding process because I wasn't satisfied enough. Actually, if I started now, it will still take a month for the finish to be complete hehe

[RXV]

Sa aking OB baffle, I applied wood conditioner before applying polyurethane stain (both same brand).

Parehas din ba yan sa sanding filler?

Probably similar, but I think not identical. Let's wait for the experts to chime in on that.

Actually, there are times when I miss the OB baffle, it has a different kind of flavor compared to a boxed baffle. There is little bass produced due to the open baffle design, but there is an airiness and naturalness (depending on the room condition) that makes it lifelike, especially on the vocals and highs.

Now I understand why some people opt for OB enclosures tapos dagdag woofers na lang.

[Gino]

Threw my back. Overworked. I did finish drilling holes for the hardware. Structurally, box is done. Tuloy ko na muna break-in.

[deist]

Sweet spot I'd say is 4in esp if bookshelf. Will most likely need help of a subwoofer to handle the lows 

You guys got any suggestions on what AN driver size I should get for a bookshelf build for a small 22 sqm room about 8 feet in height?

[Gino]

I agree. My 4.5" Fostex has smoother mids to highs transition than my 6.5" Fostex. The 4.5" also has better highs. For serious music, you will need a sub.

[RXV]

I was also thinking 4-5", pero AN kasi from 3" jump to 6.5" agad, AN yata hanap niya

[timber715]

1) Please confirm...oil based finish over laquer sealer is ok. Laquer finish over oil based sealer is not ok.

2) How much time does Boysen laquer sanding sealer need to dry?

3) I will be using Boysen sanding sealer. Do I use this as is or does it need to be thinned?

1. Yes
2. 4 hours should suffice on a warm day, but best results overnight.
3. Either way works. I prefer straight from the can and apply very thin coats.

Blotching I avoid by applying a thin coat of sealer on a suspected piece, then sand it with 220 grit sandpaper till everything is smooth and even. Then I apply stain. (I am aware that you should stain first, but...)
Stain applied and wiped the excess off after 10 mins. this will allow it to dry faster and give you an even shade without blotches.
Next step would be to apply topcoat. Several layers until you achieve what you seek.
If you can get hold of a wood conditioner locally it will help you stain better, that is if you can find one.
If you use the one step process I told you, after the sealer and sanding, you can apply the finish with light coats. If you need it darker, apply another after a day. Do not apply thick coats to get the shade you need.

Like I told JojoD, I strongly suggest the Ace finishes especially the stain. You can also try the ones from sandolin which is even better.
Brush on finish will require you to thin the finishes about 5% only to keep the fluid flowing and reduce bubbles. Brush slowly and lightly avoid starting fron the corners to reduce drips.
The first topcoat after the stain should be done with very light hands and care as the topcoat chemicals can reactivate the stain and mess it. After the first coat, suceeding ones should be a breeze.
Sand between coats except after stain. You can use 180 or 220 grit. On the final coat, i sand from 220 to 3000 grit depending on the sheen I seek. But you can stop anywhere that suits your needs.
Applying wax such as car wax makes the polish look good.
Hope this helps.

[audiojunkie]

Probably similar, but I think not identical. Let's wait for the experts to chime in on that.

Actually, there are times when I miss the OB baffle, it has a different kind of flavor compared to a boxed baffle. There is little bass produced due to the open baffle design, but there is an airiness and naturalness (depending on the room condition) that makes it lifelike, especially on the vocals and highs.

Now I understand why some people opt for OB enclosures tapos dagdag woofers na lang.

As per product literature wood conditioner will seal wood grains and have even shade of stain.

Yup, you're right dipole sound of OB is completely different listening experience. To get better LF response at least 12" or bigger for woofer. I prefer passive bass in music listening..

[RXV]

1. Yes
2. 4 hours should suffice on a warm day, but best results overnight.
3. Either way works. I prefer straight from the can and apply very thin coats.

Blotching I avoid by applying a thin coat of sealer on a suspected piece, then sand it with 220 grit sandpaper till everything is smooth and even. Then I apply stain. (I am aware that you should stain first, but...)
Stain applied and wiped the excess off after 10 mins. this will allow it to dry faster and give you an even shade without blotches.
Next step would be to apply topcoat. Several layers until you achieve what you seek.
If you can get hold of a wood conditioner locally it will help you stain better, that is if you can find one.
If you use the one step process I told you, after the sealer and sanding, you can apply the finish with light coats. If you need it darker, apply another after a day. Do not apply thick coats to get the shade you need.

Like I told JojoD, I strongly suggest the Ace finishes especially the stain. You can also try the ones from sandolin which is even better.
Brush on finish will require you to thin the finishes about 5% only to keep the fluid flowing and reduce bubbles. Brush slowly and lightly avoid starting fron the corners to reduce drips.
The first topcoat after the stain should be done with very light hands and care as the topcoat chemicals can reactivate the stain and mess it. After the first coat, suceeding ones should be a breeze.
Sand between coats except after stain. You can use 180 or 220 grit. On the final coat, i sand from 220 to 3000 grit depending on the sheen I seek. But you can stop anywhere that suits your needs.
Applying wax such as car wax makes the polish look good.
Hope this helps.

May I ask regarding the quote above?
I tried doing a test run on a piece of wood before (a part of it with sanding sealer and a part without), and then made many steps of stain layers: first part - 1 layer, 2nd part - 2 layers, 3rd part 3 layers, 4th part - 4 layers. Drying time was between 12 hours to 24 hours (summer time then), then wiped off excess thoroughly after 10-15 minutes. And after all that, they all looked the same (shade). How come? Some websites/forums say that stain layering works, while others say it doesn't. Ano ba talaga dapat? Brand of stain used is Konig.

Also, I also tested on a piece of stained wood, Ace poly varnish (glossy) 5 layers, and it has almost been a month now, but when I hard press "kurot" it, it still leaves a mark. I was expecting automotive topcoat hardness kasi upon full cure (like glass). Brand is Ace Finishes, the one used for flooring. Is it really like this? Or kulang pa sa cure time?

[Gino]

Wow that kurot experience is scary. I don't want that.

[RXV]

Wow that kurot experience is scary. I don't want that.

Glossy kasi e kaya halata, although I have to admit, medyo minadali ko ang testing process since Ace Finishes recommended a 48-hour curing time, ako a little more than 24-hours lang, since mainit naman nung summer time and testing ko lang naman for the sake of experimentation (based on forum opinions). But for my actual build, I won't dare experiment anymore haha

[timber715]

I have used ace polyurethane top coat for five years now, most were sprayed and some brushed on. i have never had any problems with it. I spray it more often in light coats, hence the drytime is significantly faster. I can do three or four coats in one day when temperature is warm.
Stains vary in chemical build, i have never liked konig and prefer to use the ones from ace or by sandolin. They provide me with the color, speed of application and compatibility with the topcoat. Another stain I enjoyed using is Deft, they also carry water based poly which I considered the best I have tried in the wb division.
Poly dries tough and scratch resistant to a degree. Did you thin the poly you used? Or applied a thick coat to get a smooth finish?

[RXV]

I have used ace polyurethane top coat for five years now, most were sprayed and some brushed on. i have never had any problems with it. I spray it more often in light coats, hence the drytime is significantly faster. I can do three or four coats in one day when temperature is warm.
Stains vary in chemical build, i have never liked konig and prefer to use the ones from ace or by sandolin. They provide me with the color, speed of application and compatibility with the topcoat. Another stain I enjoyed using is Deft, they also carry water based poly which I considered the best I have tried in the wb division.
Poly dries tough and scratch resistant to a degree. Did you thin the poly you used? Or applied a thick coat to get a smooth finish?

I was actually planning to use a spraygun, but opted to use a brush na lang, because when I made a test piece, okay naman ang results and nagfla-flatten out naman. I was also planning to buy Ace wood stain but decided against it because I won't be able to use all of the 1 liter, sayang lang. I did not thin the poly, I just applied straight from the can, but did not intentionally applied a thick coat, just poly on the tip (half at the most) of the brush. In the beginning of the brushing, there were grain lines (of the wood) shown on the poly, and after a while, the poly flattens out to a smooth surface naman.

I have a few questions:

1. In the Ace poly instructions, it says drying time is 48 hours? Do you follow this (if brushing)? It seems too long, other brands kasi alam ko 24 hours lang usually curing time.
2. Where can you buy the Sandolin and Deft wood stains and poly? Do they come in small (1/2 pint can) sizes? Do you have any experience with Zar brand stains and poly?
3. What do you use to thin out oil based poly? Paint thinner lang?
4. Do you recommend thinning poly when brushing on stained wood? If yes, what consistency or how much?
 Kung spray gun naman, how do you thin it (what consistency or ratio)?

[timber715]

I was actually planning to use a spraygun, but opted to use a brush na lang, because when I made a test piece, okay naman ang results and nagfla-flatten out naman. I was also planning to buy Ace wood stain but decided against it because I won't be able to use all of the 1 liter, sayang lang. I did not thin the poly, I just applied straight from the can, but did not intentionally applied a thick coat, just poly on the tip (half at the most) of the brush. In the beginning of the brushing, there were grain lines (of the wood) shown on the poly, and after a while, the poly flattens out to a smooth surface naman.

I have a few questions:

1. In the Ace poly instructions, it says drying time is 48 hours? Do you follow this (if brushing)? It seems too long, other brands kasi alam ko 24 hours lang usually curing time.
2. Where can you buy the Sandolin and Deft wood stains and poly? Do they come in small (1/2 pint can) sizes? Do you have any experience with Zar brand stains and poly?
3. What do you use to thin out oil based poly? Paint thinner lang?
4. Do you recommend thinning poly when brushing on stained wood? If yes, what consistency or how much?
 Kung spray gun naman, how do you thin it (what consistency or ratio)?

1. I let it dry for 24 hours even when I flood a piece, you would know poly is dry when you get white powder when you sand.
Technically, oil based polyurethane fully cures after 40 days. Yes 40 days! That is why you can smell it long after you finish the build.
2. Sandolin you can find in true value, maybe even Deft ( got mine for the supplier way back and don't remember the location)
3. I prefer mineral spirits (available at Ace, but as far as I know they are basically the same as paint thinner).
4. Brushing I often mix it with BLO (boiled linseed oil) and mineral spirits, all in equal parts. This way you can even wipe it on with a clean rag.
Spraying, I use it straight from the can. Be aware that I use a spray gun with a 1.8 tip. Not all sprayguns have this. Thin it as needed if you have a smaller tip but not more than 10%.

[RXV]

1. I let it dry for 24 hours even when I flood a piece, you would know poly is dry when you get white powder when you sand.
Technically, oil based polyurethane fully cures after 40 days. Yes 40 days! That is why you can smell it long after you finish the build.
2. Sandolin you can find in true value, maybe even Deft ( got mine for the supplier way back and don't remember the location)
3. I prefer mineralc spirits (available at Ace, but as far as I know they are basially the same as paint thinner).
4. Brushing I often mix it with BLO (boiled linseed oil) and mineral spirits, all in equal parts. This way you can even wipe it on with a clean rag.
Spraying, I use it straight from the can. Be aware that I use a spray gun with a 1.8 tip. Not all sprayguns have this. Thin it as needed if you have a smaller tip but not more than 10%.

Okay thanks for the info!

I will check out the Sandolin and Deft next time.

I'll probably practice on poly spraying next time, but for now, I'm enjoying brushing with poly

[audiojunkie]

Just wanted to share the stains used in my DIY X-over box.


Result is very satisfying specially a novice like me...

[Gino]

Is that P1950 for the Minwax wood conditioner? How much for the Polyshades?

[audiojunkie]

It's not from local ace outlet. It's 1.950 kwt dinar. Polyshades 2.850 kwt dinar. Rate about 1=155 peso.