Topic: Do you believe that expensive cables really work ?

[MAtZTER]

I would point out that its kinda rigged in the first place. All these internet boastings of audiophiles drawn out to a location thats unfamiliar, w/ gears and room scenario thats different from the ones they have at home. How can you expect these people to pass, as it takes familiarity to identify your gears? It has been argued that what you audition in a shop will sound different when you are at home. So why pull people to a double bind test in an unfamiliar place w/ unfamiliar everything?

A more suitable thing to do is to do a double bind test in the audiophile's native turf, with his gear, his software, his... etc etc. Bring your Armani coat hanger and swap it with his exotic wire (5 times is enough IMO, more than that is deliberate confusing ). Get about 20 hardcore audiophiles and go to their setups to do this. (Dont forget JR of Listening in style, I heard his ears are legendary).

It may be more work, but I believe the results will be more relevant. Ever care to wonder why nobody among those internet  guys trying to disprove cables has ever done this? Maybe they already know the result?   

[aHobbit]

actually it is hard to quantify the better in this type of discussion since many are using vague words to quantify an item - in this case BETTER!

Take for example the use of 3 dimensional sound. Based on HK founders, stereo is never 3 dimensional and will never be. But we can meet people using this vague quantification is so many threads like this one. I can only conclude they have their own set of words different in meaning than what it stands for.

Further, the use of clarity, dynamics and sense of space is more often used to describe not the quantity of an item (how clear is clear, or how dynamic is dynamic or how spacious is spacious) but the subjective preference of the listener. This only tend to confuse the whole thing, equating a quantifiable BETTER into something vague referenced to a person's understanding of his terms.

This results to those unnecessary debates ...

there is no such thing as OFC ... but OFC cable is rated based on its copper content (relative to the whole, that includes oxygen) ... and typically, decent wires (the typical brand not those overpriced hype one) has almost 99.9 competing with those questionable multiple 9s ... add to this is the amount of R&D put into drawing copper wires - it is just amazing such simple process was described in a  complicated way just to zqueeze from buyers sky-rocketing commercial gain.

[aHobbit]

Cable, being part of the electrical circuit which makes sound reproduction possible, does affect your sound.

But many commercial outfit just blew things out of proportion by making a play of various adjectives depicting the performance of a cable ... and cable effect is there not just because of the cable itself, but because how a certain amp was designed as well, thats why some high end cable does not work with high end, being in the same space of cost - if this is what is being refered to as taking a certain % of gear cost for your cable expenses (to me, this is just a blind suggestion - far from being an informed audiophile).

So you have high end connector (wow), high end insulator (wow), high end geometry (wow) and other things. But of course, it is also prudent and wise to inspect the cheap things you are buying (it may be more expensive in the long run), the way you have to scrutinize the high end cable you are buying (typically a stamped local made so-many-times-cheaper in its original stamp!)

Lastly, that (audio cable) belief system will never give you the best of audio reproduction, simply because quality of audio reproduction is not based on our belief system.

Of course, best quality audio reproduction, being an art in itself, can also be a frame of mind - subjective experience - audio in our own world of imagination - and who dares contest anybody that his is the best, and his belief is true, and his opinion is correct. But caution when you try to stamp science to your own belief system. This is where those nasty debates and absurd situation comes in!

Yes, the expensive cable really works - but how? ... is everybody's guess.

[kojie]

Maybe one of the members can host it? or each one hosts will host a test for with their own gear as suggested above. Maybe 5 tests and using 3 or 2 different cables and guessing which one is used?
That would be good.

The goal will be if the testers can differentiate cables being used with each test from one another and not which sounds better since that area is subjective.

[bumblebee]

Just get a device that measures resistance, inductance and capacitance and use it on the cable. Cables with the same characteristics should perform (not sound because we can't measure that as it is subjective) the same.

[kojie]

Just get a device that measures resistance, inductance and capacitance and use it on the cable. Cables with the same characteristics should perform (not sound because we can't measure that as it is subjective) the same.

Actually sound can be measured. What is subjective is what is a better sound. But sound itself can be measured and can be graphed.

[bumblebee]

I meant sound quality and for me, that can't be measured.

[threadlock]

How about comparing expensive cables vs room treatment? I know it is idiotic to compare two completely different things but given equal budget they are the same.
Expensive cables + no room treatment
-versus-
Generic cables(proper gauge) + proper room treatment

What I mean is that instead of pouring money on expensive cables why not spend it on room treatments. I believe the room plays a bigger role than those expensive cables.

[Ctlim]

^^^ but again having crappy cables resulting in crappy output, even a well designed room cant fix. I think there has to be a balance.

I believe in well constructed cables at a reasonable cost. but cables that cost more than amps or speakers are crazy.

[av_phile1]

What I mean is that instead of pouring money on expensive cables why not spend it on room treatments. I believe the room plays a bigger role than those expensive cables.

I agree with that.  The room accounts for more than 50% of what goes to your ears.   Every pundit in other AV forums are one in saying "you hear the sound of the room."  And every room sounds differently even with the same set-up. And the most telling observation is that  even the most high end set-up can sound crappy in an untreated room.  While a mass-fi set-up can sound gorgeous in one.  Regardless of what cable you use.   I am reminded of what one poster in Audioholics said that proof of this is evident when you go to a BOSE showroom.  You can never find a piece of overpriced garbage sound so gorgeous as the accoustimas.  That's because of the sonically engineered accoustics of their showrooms.     Little to do with the hardware.   Much less cables.

[ATJr.]

let us also never lose sight of the software we are using, as no amount of costly cable, room treatment, nor expensive gears can do to a poorly recorded music...


i would say the program materials we use are about 50% the rest is hardware.....

[MAtZTER]

let us also never lose sight of the software we are using, as no amount of costly cable, room treatment, nor expensive gears can do to a poorly recorded music...


i would say the program materials we use are about 50% the rest is hardware.....

I agree. I have been on a CD buying spree lately (pero sale). And indeed there are undeniable differences in recording from the ordinary P100 peso sale CD's and the Narada, Chesky, Verve, Telarc, Premium, etc. CD's. The more revealing your equipment is, the more you will hear the difference between the CD's.

Also, I never consider cables as a major miracle worker in the hobby as compared to your gears & room acoustics. The degree of comparison is very far. But its a valid thing to point out.

I am currently setting up a HT for an uncle in a live unacoutically treated room (acoustics to follow later) . I cant believe what his son (my cuz) said to me a few days ago. He says he feels that BOSE sounded better! LMAO.

[ATJr.]

  I agree.

hay...sa wakas....

He says he feels that BOSE sounded better! LMAO.

this is becuase BOSE sells a complete system......just plug it in and use it....

[jerix]

I am currently setting up a HT for an uncle in a live unacoutically treated room (acoustics to follow later) . I cant believe what his son (my cuz) said to me a few days ago. He says he feels that BOSE sounded better! LMAO.

Bro investigate your cousin -- i know he was browsing on the BOSE website 

Try to experiment too -- introduce him here in pinoy and you will find out the 360 degrees change after a week 

[oweidah]

lets' go BOSE!!!

o.t.

di kaya mag-detour sa BOSE itong thread?

[audiojunkie]

lets' go BOSE!!!

o.t.

di kaya mag-detour sa BOSE itong thread?

muntik na nga akong mag-post ng comment sa B**e....

In my another view... expensive cables not always work well with even expensive gears...

[ATJr.]

lets' go BOSE!!!

o.t.

di kaya mag-detour sa BOSE itong thread?

sa totoo lang i have the same view with BOSE as with megabuck cables....

[aHobbit]

let us also never lose sight of the software we are using, as no amount of costly cable, room treatment, nor expensive gears can do to a poorly recorded music...


i would say the program materials we use are about 50% the rest is hardware.....

In fact much of those items that contribute so little (almost negligible) to the sound are those that have been magnified grossly by some section of the hobbyist - cable, IC, amp, players. Of course, these items are the heart of music reproduction. Decent items from reputable manufacturers will provide you a very low distortion factor.

But the body of music reproduction - the one that each one of us hears, are affected by at least 3 big contributor to the distortion factors

(1) Your recorded materials - depending on its sources can introduce the first whopping distortion that problems caused by your gears+cable pale so much in comparison

(2) your chosen speakers with its unique characteristics that gets into the way of your gears can introduce another massive distortion that your gear+cable-distortion seems to be nothing

(3) your listening area (speaker positioning) - which serve as a baffle itself finally adding insult to injury to the reproduced music.

And whether one believe or not about those cables' claims (including those amp and player claims) does not matter at all - since belief system will not make good audio reproduction in the real world. To enjoy good sound reproduction, after buying decent equipment, give attendance to the real issue than spending so much for items that offers so little (if not none) benefits.

One said our world is quite different now ... all items now are being described using techno terms ... and only technically-inclined people can really interpret what those really means in the world ... and I couldn't agree more. Have you experience being asked by someone to buy digital cameras, flat TVs, movie players, PC, celfon, etc etc?

You will have to do a lot of convincing that so much specs does not necessarily translates into something you can use in the real world! and paying for those specs is basically a waste of money.

I hope no one will end using copper tubing (used in refrigeration as their speaker cable) just because it may support the theory of skin effect!

[aHobbit]

this is becuase BOSE sells a complete system......just plug it in and use it....

Ever wonder why BOSE produce good sound in their shops - they attended to the issues giving so much distortion to music listening
(1) the room was treated acoustically, perhaps acoustic engineer is a standard staff attending to the preparation of a BOSE store
(2) since they typically have standard amps (siguro mga chip amps), and players - it is almost of no difference with other gears in distortion levels at rated power. So, they have to carefully choose a good recorded material that will be highlighting the capability of their speakers, no matter how dimunitive they are - plus the optimum positioning of woofer
(3) their speakers is not astounding - but they put marketing hype there - almost 'hidden' - which works.

If you are the buyer that just play it by your senses because your dizzy whenever you read those specs - you will buy. It is almost a monolithic setup where the speaker cable interconnection being the only thing that will give you a challenge.

[audiojunkie]

Ever wonder why BOSE produce good sound in their shops - they attended to the issues giving so much distortion to music listening
(1) the room was treated acoustically, perhaps acoustic engineer is a standard staff attending to the preparation of a BOSE store

O.T.
I had chat with a salesman of the bose dealer in my area. He mentioned that all BOse Demo Rooms are built by Bose with their specs and all paid by them. As a dealer you will not spend even a single cent for it.....     

but cables are separate items.... 

[JojoD818]

wow, so what happens when you bring it home?

[audiojunkie]

wow, so what happens when you bring it home?

The expensive cables or overprice B*** system?   

[iceman90a]

nowadays, they call it "synergy", i can live with that, hindi na siguro mauulit yung time na kinumog si "joffkevsky"........

blast from the past - although hindi naman kinuyog si "jof" dahil sa opinion nya, kundi dahil magaspang sya magsabi ng opinion nya

[Weng!]

wow, so what happens when you bring it home?

not the same sound quality na as in the store.  but you can hire bose engrs to treat your room maganda porma pa (WAF).

ilang expensive cables kaya ang equivalent cost pagpa treat ng room to bose specs?

[jerix]

Bro baka package yan... you have to use BOSE also to maximize the benefits of the treatment.

[JojoD818]

The expensive cables or overprice B*** system?   

I was referring to BOSE... 

not the same sound quality na as in the store.  but you can hire bose engrs to treat your room maganda porma pa (WAF).

ilang expensive cables kaya ang equivalent cost pagpa treat ng room to bose specs?

and then what? turn your HT room into a BOSE demo room? ohlala...

[MAtZTER]

kundi dahil magaspang sya magsabi ng opinion nya

Thus what I have been campaigning for. Everything under the sun can be discussed, as long as its done properly and in a manner befitting the education we attained. 

We are pinoydvd.com, not pinoyjeepneydriver.com or pinoytoda.com. 

Everyone deserves respect, maybe except those who do not believe in respecting others.   

Thankfully this thread has been a fine example of respect for one another.

Cheers everyone 

[vwbeetle]

OT:-- uhm, i understand what you meant, but while espousing open-mindedness, in the same breath you were making sweeping generalizations and denigrating jeepney drivers/tricycle drivers, implying that ALL of them are of less education than you (us), and worse implying that they are necessarily rude and impolite just because they are not as "educated".

this is not something new though.  the "aristocrati" have long looked down upon the "masses" and associated civility with education (and money), implying that the more education  (money) you have, the more good mannered you are. but i tend to disagree.

in my experience, those of "less" education (money) are in fact more civil and good-natured than those who have "more education". they might not know which spoon or fork to use for a certain dish but they are not necessarily rude because they eat with their hands.  in fact i find that those with "more education" (and money) are more arrogant and prone to engaging in "pataasan ng ihi"-- the reason why they often smell so bad.

anyway, back to regular programming.

[audiojunkie]

 I think thread is getting NEW title....    

[Ctlim]

kailangan nga ng isang "rebolusyon!" hehehehe