Post by: corrsty on May 08, 2002 at 07:54 PM
I just made the tube amp jump and I cannot tell you how happy I am.
What are the reasons why you don't buy tube amps?
Hope to hear from everyone.
Thanks.
corrsty
Post by: DTS on May 08, 2002 at 09:09 PM
How much did your "jump" cost you?
Post by: nerveblocker on May 09, 2002 at 05:31 AM
Post by: Blade on May 09, 2002 at 07:42 AM
BUDGET!!!
how much would a budget tube amp cost me?
i only see these tubes at LIS showroom but never had the guts to ask for an audition coz' i know it was really out of my league (pang barangay lang kasi ako) ;D ;D
for starters : what brand and price range can i look for?
thanks.
Blade. 8)
Post by: JhunDV on May 09, 2002 at 12:40 PM
then, i don't have a separate listening room where i can safely put it, because i still have 3 little kids that will surely break those tubes. sayang lang...
but i really dig the sound that comes out of a tube amp. maybe, after 5 years. :)
Post by: corrsty on May 09, 2002 at 01:51 PM
There are lots of good tube amps (for starters and veterans) that are being manufactured in countries you won't associate with high end stuff like China. Amps like Jolida and Antique Sound Labs are getting good reviews from various magazines.
What will be a fair price for you to go into tube amps? Just want to have an idea if its alright.
Enjoy your music.
corrsty
Post by: M_Shoe_Maker on May 10, 2002 at 09:20 AM
Guys and gals, corrsty is right. China is building those Jolida and Antique Sound Labs without the Jadis, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Air Tight, etc., etc. prices.
You can even start of with 2nd-hand circa 60s stuff like Dynaco, Scott etc. etc. integrateds. Just have your favorite technician check the condition first. hyperaudio to help you out on this.
I have been using a Dynaco Power amp for more than 10 years. Yes, there is a bit of maintenance here and there such as biasing, replacement of tubes, and a few upgrades in capacitors etc. etc. But at the end of the day, I'm satisfied.
Post by: vacuumtubes on May 10, 2002 at 10:39 AM
As mentioned by MSMaker, you can take second hand tube pre & amp as long as you know the seller and have a reliable technician like our co-member HyperAudio.
If you are new to tube world then go for the brands like Dynaco, Scott, Heathkit, Fisher, Eico which is very basic and can easily replace and bias the tubes by yourself.
I know Manila is selling his Dynaco ST-70 before and you might consider his unit too for auditioning.
Post by: DTS on May 10, 2002 at 01:16 PM
One of these day kukunin ko siya tapos ipa-check ko kay Hyperaudio :D
Post by: M_Shoe_Maker on May 10, 2002 at 01:30 PM
integrated ba yan?
200 Series, 222 Series or 299 Series?
Post by: DTS on May 10, 2002 at 02:14 PM
DTS,
integrated ba yan?
200 Series, 222 Series or 299 Series?
Yup, integrated ito. I'll have to check the series though... forgot na.
problema ko dito is nung mid-80s, biglang nasira ito (ayaw umadar). so pinagawa ko sa isang ofismeyt ko b4. Alam ko all we did was rewind the two transformers tapos gumana ulit. Pero I dunno kung ako lang pero parang naging flat yung tunog after that.
kaya ipapa-check ko kay hyperaudio :D
Hyperaudio: baka may comment ka diyan tungkol sa pag parewind ng transformer ;D
Post by: corrsty on May 10, 2002 at 07:09 PM
Tube amps from China and other non-US/Europe/Japan countries(Thailand) are getting lots of attention these days (especially in the internet world) because of their real world prices and value. This, in my personal opinion, helps a lot of budget conscious audiophiles in pursuing what they love the most. I'm all for it. It might be a good strategy. Probably, there are more people waiting to experience audiophile nirvana who cannot afford the cheapest Jadis, Audio Notes, etc. Thanks to the ASLs, Jolidas, one can now taste the sweetness of music through their tube amps.
I wish I can show more people how satisfying our hobby is but sadly, even before the cartridge touches the grooves of Willie Nelson's Stardust, the prices of the stereo equipment scares those potential converts. I hope to do something about that in the near future.
Btw, are there shops that sells the ASLs and Jolidas in the Philippines?
Thanks.
corrsty
P.S. Is there a market here for fair priced/good sounding tube amps?
Post by: levi on May 10, 2002 at 09:57 PM
I believe that if you have a tight budget, you will setup your HT first since you can also use it for audio listening. If you still have extra cash then that's the time you will setup tube gears except if you are an audio enthusiast.
Post by: ArchitecturalAudio on May 11, 2002 at 11:01 PM
BOTTLES OR CANS?
AN EXPLORATION OF THE PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TUBED AND SOLID STATE ELECTRONICS
For many years the debate among Audiophiles has raged concerning the differences between tubes and solid state electronics. There are sonic differences to be sure, and almost everyone is firmly entrenched on one side of the fence or the other. Frankly, my emotions are mixed. I have had the pleasure of auditioning wonderful sounding systems using both technologies. So my charge is not to declare a winner, but simply to explore the practical, objective differences so that you can make a more informed decision on which is right for you. I hope this treatise will help you to understand some differences between tubes and solid state, from the standpoint of day to day ownership. All you "seasoned" Audiophiles bear with me, if you have owned both types you are already well aware of the differences.
Most people agree that tube electronics excel in the area of dimensionality and lack of grain through the critical midrange and high-frequencies. Further, tube gear often possesses a richness or warmth that many find appealing. Solid state designs on the other hand offer a sense of power and control rarely, if ever, found in their tubed counterparts. Additionally, well-designed solid state amplifiers have little trouble coping with the demands of today’s difficult, low impedance loudspeakers. In fact, regardless of your preferences, you may be forced to chose based upon the electrical requirements of your loudspeakers. However, in many cases it is personal preference that dictates the preferred method of amplification. Beyond those subjective evaluations exist several important considerations facing the Audiophile trying to make that choice. Let's take a moment to investigate some of those concerns.
Tubes have a shorter life-span than transistors. Consequently, an owner of valve gear can expect to change the tubes one or more times during the span of ownership. The frequency with which tubes must be replaced depends upon the specific piece of equipment, the type of tubes used and to a great degree, upon the tubes themselves.
(see next post for the continuation)
Post by: ArchitecturalAudio on May 11, 2002 at 11:02 PM
The cost of long-term ownership varies widely. Therefore, one should consider the cost of re-tubing before making a purchase decision. One brand may be considerably more expensive to own over a given period than another. Simply add the original purchase price to the cost of tubes needed over the expected period of possession to determine the long term cost of ownership. This figure will be a more meaningful comparison than just the sales price alone. As an example, if you plan on keeping an amplifier for five years, and you figure on listening about a thousand hours per year (or roughly three hours per day), and the amplifier requires re-tubing every thousand hours, you'll need five sets of tubes. Multiply the cost of tubes by the number of replacement sets needed to give you the total cost of ownership. Compare this figure with a similarly obtained number from another choice to make a valid comparison.
Please note however, that there is great latitude in anticipated tube life among competing brands. Topology and tube operation parameters dramatically affect tube life. More, the choice of tube itself has a direct bearing on the expected life-span. Some manufacturers quote as little as one thousand hours of expected life, while others may be five to ten thousand hours, or more.
System parameters greatly affect the life-span of tubes as well, especially the output tubes. Factors including the load presented by your speakers and how loud you like to listen determine the stress placed upon the amplifier and ultimately the output tubes. The amount of life in a set of output tubes may vary by fifty percent in two different systems. In other words, a guy with very efficient speakers, in a small room, who listens at moderate levels will get more life from the tubes than someone with speakers that require more power, has a larger room and likes to listen at a higher volume.
Another factor we need to ponder when considering the purchase of tubed electronics are the type of tubes used. This is important from two standpoints -- the cost of the tubes and their long-term availability. "Garden variety" tubes such as KT-88s, EL-34s and 6550s are likely to be around for a long time to come. However other less well known tubes may have a more questionable future. Additionally, the cost of these tubes differs widely among types. From most suppliers, KT-88s are about twenty-five percent higher than 6550s, and about fifty percent more than EL-34s. I certainly don't mean to suggest by this that amplifiers with EL34s are either better or less costly to own than those designs that employ KT-88s or 6550s, but tube cost does indeed play an important role. One must always consider the life-span of the specific tube beyond the cost of the tubes when finding long-term cost of ownership. Indeed, in some cases the more expensive KT-88 may conceivably outlast the EL-34, making the initial price differential trivial.
Solid state electronics are generally regarded as the reliable breed. Indeed, transistors are longer lived than vacuum tubes. However there are two sides to every coin, and that analogy applies here. While solid state is indeed less likely to fail, if it does go down, a return trip to the manufacturer is virtually inevitable. Conversely, if a tube dies, usually nothing more than replacing the tube will bring the music back. So while tubes are more likely to fail, it might be argued that they are more easily fixed.
Nothing is forever, and this statement is true for all electronic equipment - even solid state. Yes friends, transistors do age. Over time, transistors (as well as capacitors and likely other components) loose a measure of their performance. An amplifier that was made fifteen years ago, will not sound "like-new." Indeed, the degree of lost performance may be underrated by today’s Audiophiles.
Some listeners, however, are loath to fiddling with their systems. Understandably, these Audiophiles regard any failure as inexcusable, no matter how trivial. For this group, solid state seems the direction of choice. While no one can absolutely guarantee that a piece of equipment will never experience a problem, the likelihood of a good solid state amp or preamp failing is quite low. Of course reliability varies among brands, and one would do well to research the repair record of any manufacturers products before a purchase decision is made.
A careful look at the associated components is always a prerequisite for any equipment purchase. This is especially true when considering an amplifier or preamplifier, and even more important when considering tubes versus solid state. The electrical demands placed upon the amplifier by the loudspeaker and listening habits of the owner should be considered when choosing an appropriate match. Solid state offers much more power for the Dollar than to tubed units. Consequently, a system requiring a good deal of power will be less costly with solid state electronics.
In general, we can think of tubes as voltage devices, and transistors as current devices. Consequently, it is difficult for the tube amplifier to generate high current and solid state designs are less able to supply high voltage. Thus, a low impedance speaker prefers (electrically speaking) a high current (solid state) amplifier. A speaker with a rising impedance curve (some electrostatics) may be a better match (on paper) for tubed amplifiers. Of course these are not inflexible rules, merely suggestions based upon theoretical ideals.
The amount of heat generated by an amplifier or preamplifier may have a strong bearing upon your choice. Tubed electronics generally produce more heat than solid state components, especially when speaking of amplifiers. And while some pure Class A solid state amplifiers can run hot enough to actually constitute a burn hazard, most all tube amplifiers are hot enough to fry a finger. Consequently, extra ventilation must be afforded most tubed electronics when compared with the majority of transistorized offerings. Thus, location of the component becomes of prime concern, and one may be forced to revise their choice based on logistics, safety or cosmetics.
(see next post for the continuation)
Post by: ArchitecturalAudio on May 11, 2002 at 11:03 PM
All components are sensitive to vibration. The sonically destructive effects of structure-borne and air-borne vibrations are just now becoming apparent. However, tubes in particular are prone to sonic degradation from these unwanted influences, and special care should be taken in their location/placement to avoid or reduce negative effects.
While more of a concern in years past than in modem times, widely varying electrical characteristics limit the ability of some equipment to function together. Tube preamps, in particular, were a real concern. Older designs often exhibited high output impedances, which could present a problem when matched with solid state amplifiers of low input impedance, or long runs of particularly high capacitance interconnects. Most modem designs exhibit far lower output impedances, reducing the concern. But caution is still suggested when considering a tube preamp to be used with long cables and/or a solid state amplifier.
If LP is to be a source, one must consider the ability of the preamplifier to provide adequate gain for the cartridge(s) chosen. This is especially true if you plan on using a low output moving coil phono cartridge. Tubed preamplifiers generally have less gain than solid state units, and are often noisier to boot. Few full-tube preamplifiers offer enough gain to noiselessly amplify a low (.2mV) cartridge. In those that can achieve this feat, the quality of the tubes become of utmost concern, with even small amounts of noise or microphonics unacceptable. The premium, low-noise tubes required for these circuits are quite costly and should be considered as part of the long-term cost of ownership described above.
Today, tubes and solid state designs seem to be seeking a middle ground. Solid state is taking on a more tube-like character, while modem tube designs offer greater extension at the frequency extremes, coming closer to solid state in that regard. However, even with a greater similarity between the two topologies, differences do exist. Chose the direction that best suit not only your audio palette, but one that fits your lifestyle as well.
Post by: M_Shoe_Maker on May 13, 2002 at 08:52 AM
1. relatively more expensive than solid state on a price per watt comparison
2. heavy due to multiple transformers
3. very hot due to the tubes, a risk for kids' curious hands
4. not maintenance free, needs tube changes and biasing (some models)
5. consumes more electricity compared to a solid state amp with similar output power
6. old technology - a dorky excuse >:(
Post by: corrsty on May 13, 2002 at 06:59 PM
Rgds,
corrsty
Post by: levi on May 13, 2002 at 07:43 PM
What will be the average price of the tube gears? Im really interested if I can afford it. Thanks
levi
Post by: Blade on May 14, 2002 at 08:04 AM
Hi Corrsty,
What will be the average price of the tube gears? Im really interested if I can afford it. Thanks
are you bringing in the Jolidas & ASLs? how much would they cost? thnx men.
Blade. 8)
Post by: corrsty on May 14, 2002 at 03:47 PM
I'm still in the planning stages. I have to work out the prices if it will be feasible enough to bring them in. After forex conversion, shipping and taxes, I hope the prices are low enough to appeal to more budget conscious audiophiles willing to take the tube amp route.
Blade: Nope, they are not the ASL's and Jolida's. They are of same quality though, probably a bit better.
I'll keep you posted.
corrsty
Post by: nerveblocker on May 15, 2002 at 08:19 AM
Post by: Mika on May 17, 2002 at 02:54 AM
can you please PM me the brands / price range of the tube amps your planning to bring in?
... i'm really interested :)
thanks!
mika
Post by: rtsy on May 17, 2002 at 10:52 AM
If you will give me some money then I can buy tube gears also.
I believe that if you have a tight budget, you will setup your HT first since you can also use it for audio listening. If you still have extra cash then that's the time you will setup tube gears except if you are an audio enthusiast.
I'd go the other way around...if you have money to spend on a sound system, go basic stereo first (tube or not tube), then build on the surrounds later. never underestimate how a good stereo system can make one enjoy movies! ;-)
Post by: corrsty on May 17, 2002 at 05:32 PM
corrsty
Post by: lexmil on May 25, 2002 at 03:28 PM
Sound is prone to subjective judgements. People say solid state and CDs are harsh sounding while tubes and LPs are warm. Personally I wouldnt go for tubes for the same reason I wouldn't go back to turntables.
I fail to see the economic and engineerig justifcation for the price difference for any sonic improvement between tubes and amps. They just sound different from each other, not one superior to the other. And I cannot brook the incovenience of having to change tubes periodically or waiting for them to heat up before I get the sound that I want.
I guess the conveniences offered by many solid state appliance have made so much inroad in my lifestyle that antique technologies like the turntable, the open reel tape deck and tube amps simply beg to be considered. I like buying new things, new technologies. In my buying habbit for my listening and viewing room, I don't even think about them.
Post by: hyperion on May 26, 2002 at 01:07 AM
So what? More watts does not mean better music. 1000Wpc of crappy power is still crappy sound.
2. heavy due to multiple transformers
Oh yeah and big solid state amps do not have big heavy AND UGLY heatsinks.
3. very hot due to the tubes, a risk for kids' curious hands
Most of the top notch solid state amps that run with true Class A biased output stages are almost just as hot.
4. not maintenance free, needs tube changes and biasing (some models)
Uh huh, like you have to do it every day, or every week. Or like you dont change light bulbs or flourescent lamps every now and then. Consider the advantages however - if a tube burns out, you just put in a new one ... on the other hand, if a transistor burns out, your amp goes into the repair shop and if that transistor is out of stock, say bye bye to your amp hehehe. :)
5. consumes more electricity compared to a solid state amp with similar output power
No argument there but people tend to buy big solid state amps with more power than they will ever need which in turn tends to consume more power than a modestly powered tube amp.
6. old technology - a dorky excuse
old technology is cool ... tubes beat solid state just as analog whips up digital hehehe ...
Post by: corrsty on May 27, 2002 at 05:34 PM
Good points btw hyperion.
corrsty
Post by: lexmil on May 28, 2002 at 02:11 PM
So having DUAL or Thorens turntables with separate tonarms attachments or some MacIntosh tube amps () are status symbols and a pride for the owner to show his friends. Like antiques and vintage cars, they are novelties that only a few can have - both the moneyed and those who like to think they're moneyed. Afterall, almost everyone else, rich, middleclass and the noveau rich from Saudi have solid state Onkyos, Yamahas, Kenwoods and Denons which are essentially disposables. To tube-loving people, being an audiophile means more than just loving musical sound, but they should also know how to tinker with a tube amp or balance a tonearm - things ordinary folk are supposed to be too ignorant to dabble in. That and being nostalgic for things that are old.
There is nothing technically superior in old technologies. They're just old and there are people who like old things. So I guess the question in this forum is much more a subjective one. Its the same as asking why buy or not buy antiques? Personally, I wouldn't buy them even if their prices were halved that of new appliances. I just prefer new things and technologies - in everything.
Post by: corrsty on May 28, 2002 at 08:49 PM
Everyone is free to voice out their opinion in this forum which in turn makes the forum better.
I do hope though that you at least tried to audition tube gears before forming your opinion of them (This is not saying you haven't tried them.) ;)
I don't agree with your assessment that tube owner's generally came from old rich families. I'm sure there are but I think mostly they are not.
The bottom line is to each his own.
Regards,
Edrich
Post by: Racio on May 29, 2002 at 12:14 AM
My audiophile friend and I have the same opinion about tubes amps and their owners. It's a status symbol, pure and symple. It's no different from having antique furnitures, collection of old coins, jewelries or vintage cars. They're relatively more expensive and gives an aura of "breeding" to the owners. That means, they came from the old rich families.
Are you for real? Come on. No one can be that narrow-minded.
Post by: lexmil on May 29, 2002 at 11:45 AM
Yes, I have listenned to tube amps. A lot of times from my father's sound system that had a Carver(?) and a Mark Levinson amp and another brand too esoteric for me to remember. They are driving very large Klipsch and Accoustic Research speakers. These amps were impressive in their days (late 60s up to 70s). Sometime in 1978 my father, on my advice as a UP Electrical Engineering student, shifted to solid state with the purchase of a Carver separetes and then a Sansui integrated and he was most impressed. Since then the tupe amps were disposed off. The speakers became Celestion and JBL in another room.
I have also listened to a colleague's home system that have newer tube amps from a Conrad-Johnson for which he paid an arm and a leg in my terms. He was bragging and extolling the virtues of tubes as well as a Linn-Sondek tonearm-turntable combination over solidstate and CDs. Not impressed. They don't sound any better from my Onkyo-Wharfdale set-up. Just different. I just kept my mouth shut from offending him. (Sorry folks out there who were offended by my earlier message, I failed to reign in on my nasty thoughts in this venue.)
Anyway, suffice it say I know what I'm talkng about. I stand by my conviction in response to the title of this thread : what's the biggest reason you won't go for tubes. There's no known technical superiority of tubes over solid state. Period. And yes, I agree with you that not all tube lovers are old rich. That is just my impression based on experience.
To Racco,
I am for real and yes maybe narrow-minded. But no more than those who espouse tubes and LPs.
Post by: corrsty on May 29, 2002 at 01:30 PM
I'm glad you had lots of experience with tube gears before you formed your opinion of them.
This is a very subjective hobby. Much like musical preferences, be it classical, jazz, rock, pop, hip hop (mmmm??? ;) ) etc. I think there's one thing almost all of us can agree on regarding this hobby and that's personal satisfaction be it with tube amps or solid state amp; vinyls or cd/sacd/dvd-x; crossover or crossoverless speakers; high end cables or stock red and white rca interconnects; mini component to table top radio. We just want to enjoy the music and the subjective high it gives us through our "toys".
Rgds,
corrsty
Post by: hyperion on May 29, 2002 at 01:37 PM
I am 29, also a BS EE from UP, and an unrepentant tubehead and anti-digital audiophile hehehe. :D
Technical superiority has nothing to do with sound. CD is technically superior to analog with its theoretical wide dynamic range, high S/N ratio etc but in the end, it is only an ergonomically superior media. Hence the need for a superior digital media like SACD to supercede the evil cd. Read this: http://www.anstendig.org/CDandDig.html In
Are tubes for the old/rich? No way. Most of the truly rich audiophiles I know tend to go for solid state because they are too lazy for tubes! :D
Most audiophiles, even when they got top notch gear tend to be dumb when it comes to system setup (particularly speaker placement) and almost always result to mediocre sound.
I am a very open minded person. I would like solid state (particularly in the realm of digital switching amplifiers) and digital playback to succeed but right now, they dont cut it as a medium for musical expression.
regards,
Hyperion
Post by: Racio on May 29, 2002 at 02:24 PM
To Racco,
I am for real and yes maybe narrow-minded. But no more than those who espouse tubes and LPs.
lexmil,
LOL…man, you really crack me up! ;D Well, in light of what you’ve written here, I guess it’s safe to say that being an electrical engineer won’t necessarily make an audiophile out of commoner Dick from next door. The degree certainly makes you realize that SS are “technically superior” than tubes. But hey, almost everyone here knew that from the onset. Tsk tsk. ;)
I stress “technically”, because it is. No one here disputes that. But how about “sonically”? It all becomes extremely subjective doesn’t it? Oh why oh why did VAC, Janis, VTL, Sonic Frontiers, Cary Audio, Audio Research, CJ, et al put up a billion $ industry behind valve amplification? There’s a "demand" perhaps? ;)
It really boils down to one’s personal taste. And I find no need to dwell in “gear bashing” in this forum. However, I’m inclined to point out that your idiosyncratic take and bigoted remarks about tube and turntable users are uncalled for, thoroughly abhorrent and exhibits poor form. Unfortunately, it says a lot about your personality.
Oh well, as they say: “in every village, you’ll always find one”… and guess what?...you’re it.
Have a nice day.
-Racco (oh I mean Racio!) 8)
P.S. (To get the secret phrase from my previous post in this thread: connect the words in bold fonts.) ;)
Post by: rtsy on May 29, 2002 at 03:25 PM
since you don't like tube amps, can i help you by taking ownership of your dad's carver tube amps? ;-)
tagal ko nang gusto subukan yang tubes but never had the $$$ and time to do so.
seriously folks, i think it's high time we cool off and enjoy music the way we like 'em regardless if that means S/S or tube, CD of SACD/DVD-A or vinyl/tape, or if you are a true purist, live! (When's the Diana Krall concert here?)
Personally, I enjoy learning from both S/S and tube camps (or in my limited experence, tube-sounding S/S like MF and Audio Analogue). I think they both have their pros and cons albeit tubes are disadvantaged by their price tag (at least on brand new stuff available here).
Post by: lexmil on May 30, 2002 at 12:53 PM
This forum seems to be getting livelier than when I started. Let me just respond to some of your points.
First,
In the field of Hi-Fi, I really cannot divorce the terms "technical" which is usually intechanged with "technological" from the word "sonical." For the simple reason that the faithful capture and reproduction of sonics require a technological process. Hence, it is absurd and a contradiction for a technology that is technically superior to be sonically inferior.
You may be right in saying CD did not do its job well. The first 3-5 years were birth pangs so to speak. The recordng studios failed to capitalize on the CD's capability by just pressing old LP formats with their inherent EQ settings resulting in shrill sonics. But they have learned from that. And the improvements promised by SACD and DVD-audio over CD are essentrially based on the same technology as espoused by the theorem of Nihqyst and deployed in CDs. The digital potentials are immense and goes beyond the limitations of analogue.
But I will not ellaborate on this as I agree with you that listenning is subjective. Maybe my technical knowledge colours my subjective taste too well. There are those like some of you who can divorce the two. Like cheeselovers who, despite knowing and having seen under the microscope the harmless but horrible looking bacteria inherent in any kind of cheese, continues to love cheese.
Second,
I think the question that should be asked is not whether I have compared tube sounds with ss sounds before forming my judgement. I have answered that. But the better question is: Have you heard a live symphony orchestra and compared the sound with your home system? Not just in a concert but in a rehearsal and up close?
At the risk of bragging, I have heard the sound of a live orchestra up close in at least 4 occasions. Twice at the Music Center in LA for the rehearsals of Phantom of the Opera in 1991 courtesty of a TNT batchmate who was a stage hand there. Twice in 1988 at the CCP stage and backstage for the rehearsals of the CCP Philharmonic courtesy of a friend who was a Bulwagang Gantimpala ensemble member.
We were joking with each other and my CCP friend succinctly encapsulated the entire issue of Hi-Fi in reverse . He said in not so many words "Hmm, this CCP Philharmonic sounds just like my Yamaha..."
My experience in those rehearsals have revealed to me that the sounds coming from the violin and the violas are anything but smooth and silky. Certainly not from the grainy reed instruments. These instruments contain bursts of fundamental frequencies that tubes and coupling transformers cannot, because of the physics of their operation, respond accurately. The phenomenon is SLEW RATE - the time it takes for an electronic device to respond to burst of amplitude changes in any frequency. Tubes lag behind solid state in this aspect. Putting it simply, Tubes will say "hing" instead of "thing." Likewise, tubes have a gentler rolloff starting at not so high frequencies that they miss out on the high-order harmonics that gives texture to an intrument EARLIER THAN SOLID STATE. Transistors are known to pass frequencies extending from DC to 100KHZ. Ofcourse, the human ear cannot hear beyond 20Khz, but the difference in allowing high order harmonnics to pass though unimpeded as compared with the restricted bandwidth of Tubes further exlains the smoothness of Tubes versus the biting clarity and often grainy shrillness of solid state. Unfortunately, the real world of musical instruments is precisely that - biting and grainy. Not smooth as we would like to hear them.
You may argue that not everybody listens to music up close to the musicians. That's true. My experience is probably an exception. But again, I have heard what's it's like up close and I really don't care if the orchaestra sounds smooth in the bleacher section far at the back (high order harmanics's short wavelength may not reach you at the back and you get more reverberating waves that cancel or superimpose on fundamental frequencies to make them sound smooth if not muffled at the back). Because in the back of my mind, I know that my ss amp reproduces all the frequencies generated by an instrument at a fast enough response rate. And to me that is what Hi-fi is all about. Not whether its sounds smooth and pleasant or shrill and grainy. (The grainy and bitng textures of many instruments in the orchestra tempted me to cup my ears during those rehearsals.) Further, tubes are known for their soft clipping charateristic at high volumes - another factor for their sounding smooth and silky even at high levels.
I said to myself forget about thiis brouhaha about tubes vs ss before I wrote this. And I did not want to go technical, but I just did. Sorry folks. Go ahead and enjoiy your tube amps. I agree with you they are pleasant to hear sonically over SS. I've heard my tube loving friend play my CD of Sir George Solti's reading of Mussorgskey's Night on Bald Mountain and the more pedestrian Carlo Guilini's Beethoven Fifth Symphony. They are very pleasing to hear. Excellent stereo imaging and depth, silky musical transitions. Same as that in my Onkyo. What is lacking is the bite and the harsh forceful urgency in the strings and reed instruments that should be in those materials. (It's like those old Hollywood movies where the glamour of Greta Garbo or Rita Hayworth are further capitalized by the smooth skin tones on screen as compared with the brutal very revealing skin tones of Sandra Bullock or the freckled Julianne Moore in today's movies.)
Unfortuanelty or fortunately, I prefer reality over pleasantry. This is. again an elaboration to my reply on question in this forum. For those who think my "tube-bashing" is a reflection of my personality, your analsys is very shallow. Because if I had a foul one, I would have antagonized my tube loving friend who was bragging about his conrad-johnson. I just shut my mouth. No such prudence here. Afterall, the forum is about why I won't go for tubes. Or is it the opposite?
Post by: Racio on May 30, 2002 at 04:10 PM
I said to myself forget about thiis brouhaha about tubes vs ss before I wrote this. And I did not want to go technical, but I just did. Sorry folks. Go ahead and enjoiy your tube amps. I agree with you they are pleasant to hear sonically over SS.
Hmm... apology accepted then.
Post by: Mika on May 30, 2002 at 04:21 PM
i learned a lot from this thread...
there's no good or bad set-up in this world. if you're happy and contented with what you have - congrats!
be it a branded tube / solid-state gear or some japanese walkman. if you think what you're hearing is pleasing already - good!, let your own ear be the judge.
now let's enjoy some music!!
mika
p.s. now can we lock this thread? ( joke only ;D )
Post by: corrsty on May 31, 2002 at 03:26 PM
Yes, the analog (vinyl) and tube sound are really different from digital (cd) and solid state. They are much closer to the real thing. I couldn't imagine cds sounding more "real" compared to vinyl. I like reality too that's why I prefer vinyls over cds and tubes over solid states.
corrsty
Post by: lexmil on Jun 03, 2002 at 11:20 AM
Being an audiophile has become a quasi-religious way of life that no amount of technical argument will do. Like one of you guys said, it's a subjective issue. And I have no intention to getting in your way of enjoying the life you want to lead. Suffice it to say that the topic has seen it heated days in the US and I believe Stereo Review has already put a lid on it as one of their editors said they have much more intelligent things to discuss.
Just one last comment. In 1995, my TNT friend turned US citizen brought me to visit his American sponsor who is true audio purist. Like you, he doesn't believe in the CDs or SS amps being sonically better than vinyls or tubes. in fact, he has such a low opinion of the digital process that he maintains an all-analgue set-up. Even his TANDBERG open reel has tube preamps. Lately I heard, he wouln't even touch those DVDs with a ten-foot pole. My hats off to him. Like many in his small circle, he's a true purist, unlike some so called audio purists I know here in Manila whose only analgue device is a tube amp, the rest are all digital sources.
Apparently I'm a lone voice in this forum and have rained in on the parade of tube lovers. Have your last word on the issue. Suggest you change the question in this forum to "why I love Tubes" And you'll read only what you like to read. Enjoy and goodbye.
Post by: Racio on Jun 04, 2002 at 01:05 AM
Dude, I can’t wait for your goodies to arrive! The thought of doing a sort of “shootout” between your tube phonostage and my Cary’s is so enthralling. BTW, can it handle mc carts as well? Oh and lest I forget: will you also be able to bring in the much coveted 300B SETs monos with you? That would certainly be fantastic! :D
Hey, I can’t help it but say that I’m feeling extra perky today! ;D Perhaps it’s the cool and seductive Julie London record I played over my Thorens today. Man, her “Come On-a My House” really bowled me over!…... I guess that’s it then.......…nah! Or it could be that I had such a grand time at Hyper’s place today while listening to Vax’s refurbished TT....well....…nah! Oh yeah, it just hit me, Hamann has at last found tickets for the upcoming Diana Krall concert… right, that’s it.....…nah! Oh man, what could it be?...... Lakers winning the WCF?...... the breezy cool weather we had this afternoon? ::) ...... I simply feel like that I’ve finally shook off that darned and pesky li’l pebble stuck in my shoe….... hey, that’s it!!! Bye bye you annoying li'l pebble!!! ;) Dude, don’t you just feel that love in the air again today? ;) :D ;D
Cheers!
-Racio 8)
Post by: lexmil on Jun 04, 2002 at 01:11 PM
I will visit this forum once in a while to amuse myself reading little ecstatic outbursts like this one from ra Like I said I have no intentions of converting anyone. It's not worth it especailly since this brouhah on tubes vs SS has been relegated to the dustobins of hsitory and this discussion and the discussants like this little ra do not and will never amount to any consequence to impoede the progress of hi-fi. What a sigh of relief The world of Hi fi will go on much like the world of automobiles. Show me a car enthusiast that says a 1932 Duesenberg SJ is superiror to a 2001 BMW 7 series and I'll refer him to the likes of litle ra. So enjoy yourself.
Post by: Racio on Jun 07, 2002 at 08:06 AM
This is not really goodbye. Sorry folks, my apologies to the more sensible ones among you like corrsty but I can't help but vent my little sadistic bent.
I will visit this forum once in a while to amuse myself reading little ecstatic outbursts like this one from ra Like I said I have no intentions of converting anyone. It's not worth it especailly since this brouhah on tubes vs SS has been relegated to the dustobins of hsitory and this discussion and the discussants like this little ra do not and will never amount to any consequence to impoede the progress of hi-fi. What a sigh of relief The world of Hi fi will go on much like the world of automobiles. Show me a car enthusiast that says a 1932 Duesenberg SJ is superiror to a 2001 BMW 7 series and I'll refer him to the likes of litle ra. So enjoy yourself.
Hey lexmil, there really was a perty li’l ol’ nugget in me shoes. ;)
“little ra”? Oooh….touchy! Seems like I just dabbed slightly deeper than usual in yer oh so sensitive li’l psyche eh? Did I just hit a nerve? Tsk tsk. I didn’t pop it did I? ::)
Regressed to name calling eh? What a pity then. Well, I hope for your own sake the forum moderators wouldn’t find that less than amusing. Hell, it sure cracked me up again (LOL!)! ;D
IMHO, you being the queer “lone voice” in this thread can be attributed to your queer “been-there-done-that” attitude, which really doesn’t cut it and alienates a lot of forum users here, SS and tube users alike.
The fact is, without your posts on the SS-vs-Tubes issue there would certainly be no “brouhaha” to begin with. What set your queer posts apart from the rest was the prejudiced and tainted image you wanted to convey of tube and turntable users, and your queer position on why it’s totally inept for someone to venture into the analog format and valve amplification.
Then we had to bear witness to a slew of holier-than-thou ranting about your degree, about your father’s ol’ gear, your friend’s gear, a friend of your friends’ gear, and then a friend of a friend who’s actually in the States who has another friend and… WHO CARES!!! To think that you gained bragging rights because of your friend’s friend’s gear is truly queer and pathetic.
Notwithstanding your queer claim of going thru a plethora of rare and expensive audio equipment, you still say that you adore your capable Wharfdales and Onkyos and pick these over those exotics… then so be it. No one here is stopping you from knocking yourself out with it. Just no gear bashing. Frankly, those ol’ gems should really be left in better hands anyway.
However, one couldn’t help but liken what you wrote here to that of driving a 250 GT Berlinetta Lusso or a 288 GTO then suddenly dumping ‘em for the reason you’d rather lug around your almost new and stock Kia Pride then as if say: “Hey, I can still just about do a 70 at Star in this li’l bugger too… giddy-up!!!” Pretty “queer” isn’t it? Hmmm…“queer”…that word just keeps coming up. It most certainly fits the mbill here. ;)
A ‘32 Duesenberg SJ Boat-tail Speedster with a race-spec 400bhp supercharged 6.8L 8cyl in-line engine against a Bimmer 7er you say? Which model in particular? The entry 735i or the Alpina B12 6.0 with a 430bhp normally aspirated 6L V12? While the latter will set you off at around a hundred grand of green dough, the Speedster, given that only a handful was actually made and even fewer currently exist, commands a staggering value which would make your li’l head spin. But superior in what way may I ask? Specifics please. Or might this be just another one of your vague and impetuous ramblings?
At any rate, if again any of your friend’s friend's friend owns an immaculate sample of any of these two beauties, then I warmly invite you and your friend’s friend's friend to our monthly club run. Incidentally, we have one upcoming at BRC again. Finally prove you’re for real and ain’t queer lexmil. I assure you, we’ll have a blast with my sister’s-only-brother’s turbocharged E36 3er and your wonderful Alpina 7er! ;)
Then after all that “fun”, you might let me sample your audio gear so we could finally throw all these “brouhaha” out your window. You game? ::)
Cheers!!!
-Racio 8) (or was that “little ra”)
P.S. Corrs, welcome back to Manila! Dude, I’ll be gone for today and the whole weekend so I can’t meet up again with you and demo those “ear candies” ‘till next week. I would love to audition the 300B preamps and SETs you brought back from… you know where! Hey, good luck on your new venture! :D
Post by: otcho on Jun 10, 2002 at 10:19 AM
can't help reading thru this thread. masasabi ko lang , your messages make for very valid technical arguments versus tubes. bilang kasagutan sa title ng thread dito. Glad to read you're not really leaving this group where some of the tube loving dinousurs' only argument are their primitive ears.
So go ahead. YOUR RESP0NSES ARE APPROPRIATE TO THE QUESTION IN THIS THREAD: WHAT'S YOUR BIGGEST REASON WHY YOU WON'T GO TUBES..
para sa akin, i share your understanding of tube operation vs solid state. there is no known technical superiority of tubes over solid state. sa mga nagsasabing let the ears be the judge., go ahead. that's like getting married to someone and just letting the eyes be the judge. (and geting married has so many similariities with going into this audiophile hobby of ours.)
anyway, palampasin mo na lang into raccio na ito. Not worth it. I too have been to a number of live performances and they do sound just as clear and defeanning (sometimes) as my solid state equipment.(a second hand conrad-johnson mf-5600 and a harman-kardon avr7000). I do not compare between tubes and ss, only between live and ss. yan ang hi-fi.
Post by: levi on Jun 10, 2002 at 07:45 PM
Otcho,
What setup are you using?Post here Post Your Set Up Here ( Part 3 ) (http://www.pinoydvd.com/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=1614) I think its a strange combination MF5600 and HK7000. Thanks
Levi
Post by: otcho on Jun 11, 2002 at 12:12 PM
Strange ba? Siguro kung connected. E hindi naman. One is in my family den and the other in my bedroom. (Hindi ata puwedeng iconnect at walang pre-out/main-in yung CJ) Each is connected to a Promac 2002 DVD player (dalawa, ang cheap kasi) courtesy of the good write-ups I got from this forum. I'll post my set-up sa thread na binanggit mo.
Post by: rosetatoo on Jun 11, 2002 at 04:48 PM
After reading this thread, I seem to notice some animosity among some of you guys. I've read lots of flames on the internet e-groups as well as on magazines on the subject and this is not limited to just tubes vs SS, also between LPs and CDs, between branded and unbranded cables, and between s-shaped and straight tonearms in the 80s. For me,I just get the technical snippets for knowledge sake and just go by my ears.
To Otcho, I wish you wouldn't call us tube lovers "dynosaurs with primitive ears." Not that I mind it, maybe we do have primitive ears. But it doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth. And I agree with you, you do not just use your eyes to marry someone. But let's not complicate our lives anymore. I think the ears are just fine for audiophilic purposes.
To Raccio, let's not get too emotional and blurt out things that make us look like we want to impress on our knowledge of those esoteric names, whether amps or cars. It only confirms lexmil's impression of tube lovers as being snubs.
To lexmil, you've made your point and the tenor of your write-ups suggest you are a technical guy with an honest opnion. Just don't raffle feathers too much. I know you stand on your technical background wheareas we tube lovers only have our ears to stand on - very subjective indeed. But precisely because of that subjectivism and emotionalism that oftentimes, those criticsm, whether based on technical knowledge, experience or impression, can be seen, rightly or wrongly, as an attack on our person. You're attack is an attack on our taste - a very personal one.
I hope for the sake of peace of mind, let's just go back to the topic. I think it may be good idea for the moderators of this forum to just end this thread. Afterall, the question invites ss-lovers as well. I think the other forum on tubes is sufficient for tube lovers to air their issues all they want.
Post by: levi on Jun 12, 2002 at 02:56 AM
Post by: Racio on Jun 13, 2002 at 01:14 AM
To Raccio, let's not get too emotional and blurt out things that make us look like we want to impress on our knowledge of those esoteric names, whether amps or cars. It only confirms lexmil's impression of tube lovers as being snubs.
lixm…err I mean…ahh… Rose,
Believe me Miss Rose, I’m no “snob”. Rather an “anti-snob”. And it’s precisely why I detest dogmatic sweeping comments Miss Rose.
Have a nice day Miss Rose,
-Racio 8)
Post by: manila on Jun 13, 2002 at 06:59 PM
First of all, I have met Racio, I must say that he is not a snob but he is a pretty straight honest to goodness person. Maybe the problem with forums like pinoydvd is, one can never really understand the real person behind the "nickname". He's an audio enthusiast and that maybe the case why he's words are immersed with audio linggo that you think he is trying too hard. But no he isn't, he is just the typical enthusiast. Tried talking to a PhD in Physics? Well Racio has a masters degree in tube amps! :)
Secondly, us tube lovers should ignore users that create a division between tube vs SS, LPs vs CD. These are not the "real" audiophiles. Real audiophiles plays both LP's and CD's, enjoys music in it's context whether be it playing on a SS or a tube gear right?
Thirdly, I think forums normally grow and mature when it is left to it's own devices. People have the right to their own opinions up to a point. It is like reading an audio magazine where all the equipments gets 4 or 5 stars and even if it deserves a 2 compared with it's competition. What HIFI comes to mind :).
Let's keep this thread going I think and Racio is a good person and very audio inspired! :) Just my 2 cents worth of PEACE \/
Manila
Post by: rosetatoo on Jun 13, 2002 at 08:09 PM
Good yo know Raccio in person. I hope i didn't give the impression my post was anti-Raccio. Becasue it wasn't
Perhaps you might want to reread the articles posted by these two. Lexmil gave out his opinion on why he doesn't like tubes. Maybe he was wrong in going further by declaring his impressions on the kind of people who love tubes, rightly or wrongly. But I think he apologiozed for that. The responses of the other members are more apt like that of hyperion and corssty, don't you think so?
Then read the posts of traccio who, not only deliberately misspells the other guy's nickname, (for mockery purposes?) but also makes statements like narrow-minded and ridicules the personality of the other. Tell me how would you react?
Post by: levi on Jun 13, 2002 at 08:45 PM
I think we are getting off topic too much. Lets go back to the purpose of this thread. We want to protect the interest of all the users. Please be honest with your post and please stop the name calling. It will be beneficial to everyone. Thank You.
Levi
Post by: MeowPao on Jun 13, 2002 at 09:31 PM
I think we are getting off topic too much. Lets go back to the purpose of this thread. We want to protect the interest of all the users. Please be honest with your post and please stop the name calling. It will be beneficial to everyone. Thank You.
Levi
Well said Levi... :)
Don't you think we should change the subject a bit? It sounds too negative, and it's open to arguments.
Why don't we call it something like Why I Love My Tube Gear, or Why I'm Planning to Get Tubes? ;)
This way, more people can understand / appreciate tubes, instead of reading negatives about it. :)
Post by: bently on Jun 14, 2002 at 12:33 AM
as for me, i'm more into movies and and i highly doubt that theres a tube amp. that offers toshlink connections or support DTS format. ;)
bently
Post by: Racio on Jun 14, 2002 at 02:54 AM
The subject matter that was posted on this forum by one of our fellow members was, with all intents and purposes, a quest to determine the prevailing interest in this board about valve amplification. Sort of a survey if you will. Some are positive and some are negative...that was naturally anticipated. But no one expected discrimination… so, a li’l of hell broke loose.
Since most of the reasons presented here were of monetary in nature, it substantiate the notion that the cost of tube amps lies in the higher spectrum of the financial echelon is generally true.
Unfortunately, the original intention is still left somewhat untold. Because the truth is, our friend who started this thread is actually offering perhaps a solution to this particular impediment, wherein anyone who’s really interested in investing in tube sound could purchase and take home a brand new integrated tube amplifier for only a third of the cost of, let’s say, a bnew THX receiver. A “killer” deal if you're really into this hobby IMHO.
An interesting climax that was not meant to be I suppose. But there is still that glimmer of hope because this "offer" to tube sound lovers doesn't necessarily end here.
Cheers then!
-Racio 8)
P.S. A li’l OT if you may:
Then read the posts of traccio who, not only deliberately misspells the other guy's nickname, (for mockery purposes?) but also makes statements like narrow-minded and ridicules the personality of the other. Tell me how would you react?
Oh… and Miss Rose, like you, lexmil and otcho ::) , spelling was never my forte’ so reread my prior posts. Appropriate corrections have been made. But please, leave your b?tching at home. It is certainly not very lady-like Miss Rose.
Lastly, to lexmil, a word of caution: if you don’t want to get burned then please don’t start a fire. I’m sure you have better things to write about. A book about "cloning" perhaps? ;) Just throw 'em matches away.
Post by: levi on Jun 14, 2002 at 10:40 AM
Levi
Post by: levi on Jun 17, 2003 at 12:58 AM
Post by: Courage on Jun 17, 2003 at 08:15 AM
Post by: Dracula on Jun 17, 2003 at 09:47 AM
If I did have a budget it would be nice to buy one of the tube amps and pair it with the nautilus speakers sonny is selling. The tubes look cool pero don't want to audition a set-up I might get bitten by the bug i just cured myself and i haven't fully recovered yet ;D
Post by: slowhand on Jun 17, 2003 at 11:53 AM
However, I am plotting to insert a tube preamp in the future, specifically one with an HT bypass, to handle audio needs.
Does that make me a "balimbing"? Hehe.
Or maybe I just don't want to limit my choices and, instead, strive to get the most out of different worlds.
But that's me, and my own journey.
Post by: greatness on Jun 17, 2003 at 11:59 AM
Post by: rtsy on Jun 17, 2003 at 03:06 PM
I still dont have any idea about tube setup, kaya di ako upgrade nang tubes ehehehehe, i wanna hear those babies
Best is to hear 'em first. There is no more productive means in doing this than by paying Hyperaudio a visit. You'd be sure to hear at least 3-4 tube stuff in one sitting there.
Post by: rtsy on Jun 17, 2003 at 03:07 PM
However, I am plotting to insert a tube preamp in the future, specifically one with an HT bypass, to handle audio needs.
Sounds like a good plan.
Also consider a tubed DAC.
Post by: rtsy on Jun 17, 2003 at 03:18 PM
Budget......
Money is a frame of mind. :P
Tubes (and solid state) or analog (and digital), hell, everything audio are all mere tools at achieving the sound you want.
So the first step really is to educate oneself and learn what your preferences are.
When you find out what sound you are after, that's the time you decide what tools you'd get to get to that sound. That's the time to zero in on Single Ended vs. Push Pull, Tubes vs. S/S, digital vs. analog, etc.
Thing is, you just need to hope and pray that to get to your desired sound, you don't spend much $$$. Corollary to this, the path to your sonic nirvana may actually be just simple speaker re-positioning or a cheap tweak or two.
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 17, 2003 at 05:55 PM
Having read other (both technical and subjective, both intelligent and senseless) forums and discussions, my mind is set on the following reasons why I wont go tubes:
- inherent limitations of tube amplification technology (as explained by lexmill)
- maintenance issues (total cost of ownership)
- safety issues (for kids who may also inappropriately "touch" the eqpt)
- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it
Post by: levi on Jun 17, 2003 at 11:40 PM
hmmm ... an interesting ressurected topic. learned a lot reading the past posts ... explained those technicalities which I in time past tried to get answers.
Having read other (both technical and subjective, both intelligent and senseless) forums and discussions, my mind is set on the following reasons why I wont go tubes:
- inherent limitations of tube amplification technology (as explained by lexmill)
- maintenance issues (total cost of ownership)
- safety issues (for kids who may also inappropriately "touch" the eqpt)
- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it
IMO
1. Tube amplification is the same as SS amplification. Both amplifies sound.
2. Its a misconception. Just use it, no need to do anything. It becomes expensive when you upgrade the tubes but you can live without changing the tubes. Remember a lot of tube user in the Philippines are using 2nd hand gears but it is still working as if brand new.
3. There are ways to get around this and there are brands with protection.
4. I guess you have not tried listening to a tube amp. You should try to get one for yourself and you will know how good it is. Economically, both has the same function and purpose. Dont listen to music if you dont want to spend. Tube amp will give you years of very good music. Just change the tubes when it gets consumed but it will take years. My amp is a 1962 model and it is working fine. It is a lot better than my few months old Denon receiver so why would you say its not practical.
Post by: greatbop on Jun 18, 2003 at 01:04 AM
2.) My pair of speakers CRAVE power. the bass driver crave to be choked and slammed down for the very tight bass it does. Tubes won't cut it.
3.) my SS amps are very warm enough as it is. Airy- very airy wind instruments. I am happy with what my Solid State amp can do.
4.) if i wanna go tube.. i wanna have tube on everything, cd player, pre amp, amp, etc and that will cost alot of money.
Post by: john5479 on Jun 18, 2003 at 02:23 AM
I beg to disagree on this one, especially sonically, was a skeptic before but now I understand why tubes are still used today for amplification...midrange is superb at least for all the tube amps i've listened to :)
of course each has its own compromise, you can't power certain speakers with tube amplification...it just won't cut it, but pairing tube amps with appropriate speakers (not all them cost an arm and a leg) provides the magic sans the brute power of ss.
each has its own advantages though but with the music I listen to tubes is the way to go...good thing I still use ss for my ht...its hard to wait like 30 minutes before playing a movie :)
Post by: tuff_u_gong on Jun 18, 2003 at 07:34 AM
The reason I won't choose tubes for my amp is that I want to integrate audio and video and would not want to have to maintain 5 channels of tubes, or more.
However, I am plotting to insert a tube preamp in the future, specifically one with an HT bypass, to handle audio needs.
Does that make me a "balimbing"? Hehe.
Or maybe I just don't want to limit my choices and, instead, strive to get the most out of different worlds.
But that's me, and my own journey.
hi slowhand!
i tried that route of integrating audio with video too by getting myself a (used) tube preamp and hook them up with my SS HT amp. there were indeed noticeable improvements in detail and warmth. however, my experience (though very limited) helped me realize that a tube amp really has a lot more to offer in terms of musicality and that, long term, i won't be satified with just a hybrid setup.
i have retained both my tube and solid state gear, though. for short listening sessions (weekdays, after work) i often use SS. on weekends, i use the hybrid gear until my tube amp warms up. my all-tube setup is virtually on from Friday evening to monday morning.
Post by: rtsy on Jun 18, 2003 at 09:12 AM
- inherent limitations of tube amplification technology (as explained by lexmill)
All gears have limitations, both tubes and solid state included. It's really a choose your own poison kinda thing.
- maintenance issues (total cost of ownership)
There are a couple of dimensions to maintenance:
1--Generally, tubes wear out faster than transistors, especially power tubes. So yes, in this sense, maintenance of tubes is more costly.
But if you're talking about driver tubes, those last a long, long time. The 6111WA in my DAC is rated at 10,000 hours or about 10 years of listening pleasure, never turning the damn thing off.
And transistors, capacitors, etc. in S/S wear out too. Hypertriode recently replaced the op-amps in my NAD 502 despite tender loving care.
2--Tubes generally have simpler circuitry than S/S and parts tend to be "discrete" (i.e., point-to-point wiring vs. crammed PCBs). So when something breaks (and most gear do), tubes generally are easier to repair.
3--As far as total cost of ownership goes, tubes have a distinct advantage over S/S in that there are significantly more system tuning options with tubes. If something changes in your system (say you upgrade speakers, cables, or move rooms, etc.), it's generally easier to tune the system to your liking with tubes (tube rolling, caps, etc.) with tubes than with S/S.
So instead of changing electronics also each time there is a change in your system, you just make some parts modifications and you're done.
- safety issues (for kids who may also inappropriately "touch" the eqpt)
I have a 3 year old. Safety is an issue to me.
http://www.jcaudio.com/product/AudioNote/daccomparison.html is the full range of Audio Note (tubed) DAC's.
http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/current-tube-line.html is the range of Conrad-Jonson (tubed) pre-amps.
What's there to threaten my 3 year old here?
- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it
Sonic value, like beauty, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder so this sweeping general statement is careless at best.
Now economic value, well, let's see:
1--Mullard EL34 metal base sold for US$2 when it was still manufactured. A used xf1 was posted in Pinoydiophiles Marketplace for PhP7.5k ea.
2--GEC KT66 was <US$4 now US$180 ea
3--The Dynaco ST70 sold for US$100 in kit form. The sub PhP50k souped up ST70 from Hypertriode is a true bargain nowadays.
4--The Scott 299 was ~US$220 new. You'd spend ~PhP20k to buy a working one now.
Contrast these numbers to the <PhP20k my brother in law paid for an Onkyo TX-DS575 (I think, a fine model BTW) receiver 2 years ago. How much do you think he could sell that today?
Or even so called "audiophile grade" stuff like my NAD502 (~US$300 new, aorund PhP30:US$1 then) and someone else's same model for PhP5k in the Marketplace with no takers if I remember correctly.
Do please correct me if I am misunderstanding your concept of "economic" value.
As I've mentioned before jofkevski, nothing personal, OK? I'm responding to your post as these (very) hasty generalizations of yours are terribly damaging especially to newbies.
Post by: rtsy on Jun 18, 2003 at 09:17 AM
4.) if i wanna go tube.. i wanna have tube on everything, cd player, pre amp, amp, etc and that will cost alot of money.
Why? Do you think this is really necessary?
I got tubes in my DAC and pre-amp. For a while, I onle had them in my pre. Good enough for me. :D
It only takes a tube or two to bring that tube magic in a system. Going the whole hog can in fact be deletrious to the sound.
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 18, 2003 at 10:16 AM
Saw your setup. gandang tingnan. Ganda rin bahay mo. Anyway, tried to reply on your reaction.
1. Tube amplification is the same as SS amplification. Both amplifies sound.
- Yes, this is true. The absence of transistors in the early days paved the way for vacuum tubes to be used for amplification. Could history be the same should there be transistor amplifier and digital circuitry in the early days, side by side with vacuum tubes?
2. Its a misconception. Just use it, no need to do anything. It becomes expensive when you upgrade the tubes but you can live without changing the tubes. Remember a lot of tube user in the Philippines are using 2nd hand gears but it is still working as if brand new.
- Perhaps for more expensive gears and more expensive tubes. So if my money will limit me on initial purchase (compared with transistor), there will be more frequency of maintenance - since I understand tubes has shelf life, it being a vacuum itself.
3. There are ways to get around this and there are brands with protection.
- Yes, but I do not need to do this round for transistor amplifiers
4. I guess you have not tried listening to a tube amp. You should try to get one for yourself and you will know how good it is.
Nope. I was able to listen (in my younger days though) to tube gear (not stereo amp). but after tubes limitation has been discussed earlier (SLEW RATE, the coupling tube and transformer) - I dont see the need.
Economically, both has the same function and purpose. Dont listen to music if you dont want to spend. Tube amp will give you years of very good music. Just change the tubes when it gets consumed but it will take years. My amp is a 1962 model and it is working fine. It is a lot better than my few months old Denon receiver so why would you say its not practical.
- Yes, S/S and tubes has the same functions. If I will spend to listen to music, because both SS and tubes has the same purpose, why buy tubes if I can get transistors? SS will also give you years of good music. There's nothing to change in transistor amps. I am not contesting that your tube is better than your Denon (this is subjective naman eh). Practicality - If I like my transistor amp now, with nothing to do to maintain it and will last me with years of music, why go on tubes for the same reason and plus maintenance with it. Is it not really going backward?
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 18, 2003 at 10:32 AM
- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it
I beg to disagree on this one, especially sonically, was a skeptic before but now I understand why tubes are still used today for amplification...midrange is superb at least for all the tube amps i've listened to :)
of course each has its own compromise, you can't power certain speakers with tube amplification...it just won't cut it, but pairing tube amps with appropriate speakers (not all them cost an arm and a leg) provides the magic sans the brute power of ss.
each has its own advantages though but with the music I listen to tubes is the way to go...good thing I still use ss for my ht...its hard to wait like 30 minutes before playing a movie :)
Hi john5479!
Again, sonically is a subjective issue. And I wont contest you on that. Somehow I understand why tube were regarded for their sonics - it is basically the (inaudible frequency response) limitation of the tubes to recreate the nth harmonics that characterizes actual sound being recreated. The result seemed cleaner but less real.
On the midrange front, i may agree with you. But portions of it is explained above (the nth harmonics limitations of tubes). However, getting the midrange that you want in the tube can also be accomplished in SS - proper matching of your SS amp and speaker will do the trick.
If tubes is your way to go, then you are one of those that develop a liking for music reproduced by (frequency-limited) tubes. Perhaps I may want the music (minus some of the music elements in the real) also in my relaxing time. But I think I will be more content if what I am hearing is closer to the real sound (or at least nearer to the sound the audio engineer intend it to be).
Thanks also for siting the 30-minute heat-up time for tube to really crank-up good music. You are really tube lover who can tolerate 30-minute wait time to enjoy music. I may say I salute you tube lovers! Can we coin a word for you guys? how about TubePhile (as in audio phile)?
Regards
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 18, 2003 at 11:25 AM
All gears have limitations, both tubes and solid state included. It's really a choose your own poison kinda thing.There are a couple of dimensions to maintenance:
1--Generally, tubes wear out faster than transistors, especially power tubes. So yes, in this sense, maintenance of tubes is more costly.
But if you're talking about driver tubes, those last a long, long time. The 6111WA in my DAC is rated at 10,000 hours or about 10 years of listening pleasure, never turning the d**n thing off.
And transistors, capacitors, etc. in S/S wear out too. Hypertriode recently replaced the op-amps in my NAD 502 despite tender loving care.
2--Tubes generally have simpler circuitry than S/S and parts tend to be "discrete" (i.e., point-to-point wiring vs. crammed PCBs). So when something breaks (and most gear do), tubes generally are easier to repair.
3--As far as total cost of ownership goes, tubes have a distinct advantage over S/S in that there are significantly more system tuning options with tubes. If something changes in your system (say you upgrade speakers, cables, or move rooms, etc.), it's generally easier to tune the system to your liking with tubes (tube rolling, caps, etc.) with tubes than with S/S.
So instead of changing electronics also each time there is a change in your system, you just make some parts modifications and you're done.I have a 3 year old. Safety is an issue to me.
http://www.jcaudio.com/product/AudioNote/daccomparison.html is the full range of Audio Note (tubed) DAC's.
http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/current-tube-line.html is the range of Conrad-Jonson (tubed) pre-amps.
What's there to threaten my 3 year old here?Sonic value, like beauty, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder so this sweeping general statement is careless at best.
Now economic value, well, let's see:
1--Mullard EL34 metal base sold for US$2 when it was still manufactured. A used xf1 was posted in Pinoydiophiles Marketplace for PhP7.5k ea.
2--GEC KT66 was <US$4 now US$180 ea
3--The Dynaco ST70 sold for US$100 in kit form. The sub PhP50k souped up ST70 from Hypertriode is a true bargain nowadays.
4--The Scott 299 was ~US$220 new. You'd spend ~PhP20k to buy a working one now.
Contrast these numbers to the <PhP20k my brother in law paid for an Onkyo TX-DS575 (I think, a fine model BTW) receiver 2 years ago. How much do you think he could sell that today?
Or even so called "audiophile grade" stuff like my NAD502 (~US$300 new, aorund PhP30:US$1 then) and someone else's same model for PhP5k in the Marketplace with no takers if I remember correctly.
Do please correct me if I am misunderstanding your concept of "economic" value.
As I've mentioned before jofkevski, nothing personal, OK? I'm responding to your post as these (very) hasty generalizations of yours are terribly damaging especially to newbies.
Hi rtsy!
You can be assured of it, this is nothing personal. So here is my reply to you.
1 - maintenance issues, at least you recognize it in general terms. between stereo SS and tubes, in same price level - there is almost zero maintenance for SS (I may say at all price levels). Your NAD repair might be an exception to the rule (in the same way that a lemon product can exist among the good bunch). I amy agree with you on more expensive tubes - but then I will also compare it with expensive SS gear - and we will end on the same maintenance issues.
2 - Sorry about your idea of circuitry. I am a person who hates spaghetti wires (I saw a lot of tube amps underneath). Magkaiba tayo ano? Ako, I am awed by good circuit board and assemblies without jumper wires. To me, it shows that a clean assembly without jumping wires are well-designed (PCB) boards. Anyway, for repair issues, I can repair both if I want to.
3- Again, tuning the system to your liking is subjective issue and I wont contest that with you. I can have my own process of tuning up my SS to my liking with less to move.
4. The value portion is after the first 3 points I raised. At 20k what do you got as brand new for tubes (stereo) because I can get also a good 20k stereo amp (and nothing to maintain anymore, no safety rounds to do, listen to it as it cranks music). For second hand gear, the same thing, what do you get for a stereo gear (tube and SS), for I can get some of the best of breed in pier that cost hundreds and thousand of dollars as brand new for less than a hundred dollar, and lots of power and muscle. I have had 5 top of the line SS amp in pier and all (upon internal inspection) are unaltered - pumping so much beatiful music than the cheap crappy product of today. I enjoyed them for my music. Now, still waiting for the best model to come in that place yet (after I identified it in my research).
So now, I still dont see the value you are talking about. I agree tubes are something unusual (kasi nga konti lang ang nahilig dyan). Siempre, napakaunti ang nag-sesell ng tube amp, at may kaunti na bibili - so medyo mataas ang resale value mo. Sa SS, madami nagbebenta, brand new is also in high competition to each other, e kung saturated din ang market mo, natural, your resale value will just go down - and this in itself - makes SS of more value (for your few bucks).
Maganda yung Audio note ah! preamp lang yata yon - hindi pa amp. magkano naman ang bayad sa safety non?
Post by: Blade on Jun 18, 2003 at 01:21 PM
For second hand gear, the same thing, what do you get for a stereo gear (tube and SS), for I can get some of the best of breed in pier that cost hundreds and thousand of dollars as brand new for less than a hundred dollar, and lots of power and muscle. I have had 5 top of the line SS amp in pier and all (upon internal inspection) are unaltered - pumping so much beatiful music than the cheap crappy product of today. I enjoyed them for my music. Now, still waiting for the best model to come in that place yet (after I identified it in my research).
yo bro
eto ba yung pier where you can see the widescreen & flat tvs?
ano yung nga SS amps you saw and could recommend?
thanks....
blade.
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 18, 2003 at 01:41 PM
I saw at 1 store selling for 4500 (makuha mo pa ito ng 4k) Marantz PM80 (100watts per channel class AB and 25 watts per channel pure class A). I just dont know why I cant operate class A so be cautious on this.
I also spotted a sony champagne gold monster (MOSFET amp) selling for 6.5k. Likewise Onkyo Integra A-817GX (MOSFET) for 4.5k.
Sansui AU-D607X (80wpc at 8ohm, 100wpc at 6ohms)decade at 4.5k, and AU-alpha607 (80wpc/8ohms, 100wpc/6ohms)
For cheaper value, Marantz PM54 or Sansui AU-alpha507i (60wpc/8ohms, 80wpc/6ohms) selling for about 3k.
Bring good sounding CDs you are familiar with and listen at low volumes, listen with following setting:
- tone control flat,
- treble control flat, boost bass control
- bass control flat, boost treble
- tone control flat, switch loudness on
- any tone configuration at louder volume, no music played
- any tone configuration at louder volume, music is played
in all of the above, check if there are hissing noise, or unusual on the sound recording of the CD you brought. Check that amp screws are all accounted for and unscratched (I mean the screws) and of the same type (this will give you hint the unit is not repaired or opened up).
If you are satisfied, make your decisions. Take note, they are not 110Volts but 100volts. and of course, they are heavy.
Happy hunting!
If you like pictures of this before buying, PM me your email and I will send it to you (except the SONY and integra).
Post by: greatbop on Jun 18, 2003 at 01:52 PM
Why? Do you think this is really necessary?
I got tubes in my DAC and pre-amp. For a while, I onle had them in my pre. Good enough for me. :D
It only takes a tube or two to bring that tube magic in a system. Going the whole hog can in fact be deletrious to the sound.
Dahil I believe that everything starts with the Source.
Post by: levi on Jun 18, 2003 at 01:56 PM
Hi Levi!
Saw your setup. gandang tingnan. Ganda rin bahay mo. Anyway, tried to reply on your reaction.
1. Tube amplification is the same as SS amplification. Both amplifies sound.
- Yes, this is true. The absence of transistors in the early days paved the way for vacuum tubes to be used for amplification. Could history be the same should there be transistor amplifier and digital circuitry in the early days, side by side with vacuum tubes?
2. Its a misconception. Just use it, no need to do anything. It becomes expensive when you upgrade the tubes but you can live without changing the tubes. Remember a lot of tube user in the Philippines are using 2nd hand gears but it is still working as if brand new.
- Perhaps for more expensive gears and more expensive tubes. So if my money will limit me on initial purchase (compared with transistor), there will be more frequency of maintenance - since I understand tubes has shelf life, it being a vacuum itself.
3. There are ways to get around this and there are brands with protection.
- Yes, but I do not need to do this round for transistor amplifiers
4. I guess you have not tried listening to a tube amp. You should try to get one for yourself and you will know how good it is.
Nope. I was able to listen (in my younger days though) to tube gear (not stereo amp). but after tubes limitation has been discussed earlier (SLEW RATE, the coupling tube and transformer) - I dont see the need.
Economically, both has the same function and purpose. Dont listen to music if you dont want to spend. Tube amp will give you years of very good music. Just change the tubes when it gets consumed but it will take years. My amp is a 1962 model and it is working fine. It is a lot better than my few months old Denon receiver so why would you say its not practical.
- Yes, S/S and tubes has the same functions. If I will spend to listen to music, because both SS and tubes has the same purpose, why buy tubes if I can get transistors? SS will also give you years of good music. There's nothing to change in transistor amps. I am not contesting that your tube is better than your Denon (this is subjective naman eh). Practicality - If I like my transistor amp now, with nothing to do to maintain it and will last me with years of music, why go on tubes for the same reason and plus maintenance with it. Is it not really going backward?
jofkevski
- Yes, this is true. The absence of transistors in the early days paved the way for vacuum tubes to be used for amplification. Could history be the same should there be transistor amplifier and digital circuitry in the early days, side by side with vacuum tubes?
Yes, but I still wont say there is an inherent limitation that is why I wont go for tubes. Both technology perform the same function they just differ in pros and cons. I respect your judgement if you prefer SS but I just disagree with your reasoning.
- Perhaps for more expensive gears and more expensive tubes. So if my money will limit me on initial purchase (compared with transistor), there will be more frequency of maintenance - since I understand tubes has shelf life, it being a vacuum itself.
In the short term maybe but in the long run tube technology will outlast SS. Value for money I will go for tubes. If you are referring to expensive models only then you cannot generalize that tube amps are more expensive to maintain. There are affordable tube amps that can rival the sound of expensive SS but does not need any maintenance.
- Yes, but I do not need to do this round for transistor amplifiers
I think this is a lame excuse for not wanting a tube amp. Im not forcing you to get one, but I just want to explain to other members.
-Nope. I was able to listen (in my younger days though) to tube gear (not stereo amp). but after tubes limitation has been discussed earlier (SLEW RATE, the coupling tube and transformer) - I dont see the need.
What I mean is to really experience listening to a good sounding tube amp for sometime. If you just heard it and based your judgement from lexmil's advise then that wont be accurate. Based from lexmil's explanations before, his only experience in tubes is also the same as yours ( younger days ). Another thing, lets not be technical here, our main goal is to have good music. Listening is the final judge.
- Yes, S/S and tubes has the same functions. If I will spend to listen to music, because both SS and tubes has the same purpose, why buy tubes if I can get transistors? SS will also give you years of good music. There's nothing to change in transistor amps. I am not contesting that your tube is better than your Denon (this is subjective naman eh). Practicality - If I like my transistor amp now, with nothing to do to maintain it and will last me with years of music, why go on tubes for the same reason and plus maintenance with it. Is it not really going backward?
In my case, I want to listen to good music. I compared both technologies and I prefer tubes. Its a lot better in sound and I know it will outlive my SS amp. Its a better investment in the long run. Changing tubes is cheaper than buying a new SS amp again and again. Another thing is aesthetics, its nice to look at. Are you saying that that new technology is better than old? Not in all cases but the bottom line is the kind of music you want.
I agree with you that this is a very subjective topic but we want to introduce to other members that there are other things other than 1 and 0. Nothing Personal. :)
RTSY,
Dont worry, that's the reason I unlocked this thread. It is a very informative thread although it becomes controversial sometimes, but we are all adults here and we just want to share. :)
Levi
Post by: Blade on Jun 18, 2003 at 01:59 PM
Take note, they are not 110Volts but 100volts. and of course, they are heavy.
Happy hunting!
If you like pictures of this before buying, PM me your email and I will send it to you (except the SONY and integra).
no problem with 100v kasi i'm using dati surplus widescreen tv kaya meron akong AVR na me 100v.
you can send the pics : [email protected]
salamat sa mga recos and will look sa internet para sa mga specs & features nila.
thanks for the recos and buying tips bro....
blade. 8)
Post by: john5479 on Jun 18, 2003 at 02:33 PM
specs are specs but my theory is music cannot be measured per se. transistors are made to measure better.
as for vacuum tubes being frequency limited I guess the point here is how they sound as a whole. I haven't heard jacintha's voice as close to live in a tube amp than any ss as of yet considering the price as well. Jazz Instrumentals? never heard a piano sound more real, percussion? sounds good...does it lack detail? I don't think so..and I have ss amplification as well for comparison, since ss measures well right ? so when I say tubes sound better sonically its because I have experienced listening to both. I like my music with detail, and the tube amps I've listened to have it.
"Thanks also for siting the 30-minute heat-up time for tube to really crank-up good music. You are really tube lover who can tolerate 30-minute wait time to enjoy music. I may say I salute you tube lovers! Can we coin a word for you guys? how about TubePhile (as in audio phile)?"
I am a music lover and I want to listen to great music not good music ;)
elements in music? tubes have the warmth and give body to music (I love music, I play the guitar and listen to gigs and acoustic events) music is not dry and listening to a live event..do you really need to hear every detail in order to enjoy it ? detail is not the only element in music.
you can read a lot of technical journal's and quote's from "experts" but the main question here is if you like the sound. I prefer the warm sound of tubes and since my goal here is to "listen" to music I don't care about specs..except for some like the wattage and power consumption. and one more thing, please consider the parts available during those times...try listening to tube amps with much better capacitors, resistors and the like.
but would I really care if a certain electronic part measures better than the other if what I am looking for or what I am concerned is the end product ? no.
Yes component matching is essential and ss mated with the right speakers will sound good...but you can apply that same argument to tube amps matched with the right speakers.
I am not bashing SS, I have ss for my ht and I like it, not because I don't have to wait but its because ss fits my movie preferences,like I've said each has its own advantages.
By the way this is just for the use of vacuum tubes in music...transistors bash tubes in other areas of electronics...I can't imagine networking equipment, cpu's still using vacuum tubes...achieving the blazing speeds and small size factor would not be possible if vacuum tubes were used. ;D
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 18, 2003 at 02:52 PM
Since you mention about that they are breeds of technology, then I cant help it to use technical items to justify my preference. We just cant brush aside technicalities in here if it will justify my choice of SS. And the limitation is a technical fact, whether you want it or not, whether you believe it or not, whether you like the sound of your tube or your SS. It will not change no matter what you want to believe in.
I am a person also deep in research of audio gears. And I have the privilege to visit one of the site. And which will outlast which? neither! for both are still alive and kicking - it so happen transistor just came in after tubes.
a lot of vintage SS and tubes are traded around the world.
Again, talking of rivalring tubes and SS amps. This is subjective. If you think it rivals your SS, then so be it, it is you anyway. If I say SS rivals tubes, then so be it, it is me anyway. The truth is, I am not saying my SS is better than your tubes. I just cited the technical issues I have against tubes which formed the base of my decision. thats all. Like you, I respect you using your tubes.
Doing precautionary measures to provide safety net for the tubes is a big issue to me - it could be lame to you. And you can not judge me by putting a lot of weight to doing rounds of safety net for something I may not do at all for some other SS options.
Well, you see, what your amp does (like the tubes), is to make their respective signature of sound reproduction. The NAD on the too soft and laid back, the Denon on the too laid back, the marantz on slightly laid back, the yamaha on the accurate, the pioneer on the bright, the tubes on its own coloration. So whats new to listen about. Again, the sound you listen in the tube is part of the tube technicalities, and technicalities we will not avoid. But in the end, as you said, as you listen, whether you want the sound it produced, and if you did, then you are one happy person to own one. so do I in my SS amp. I hope we will not spend so much time to defend our respective subjectivity in selecting our respective music sound.
Good for you when you decided to go tubes for your music. Same here, I love the music I heard from my SS, and comparing technologies, I have set myself for the SS. No changing tubes, my amp I will live with the rest of my life, no changes whatsoever, no maintenance and cheaper than tube at that. My amp is also nice to look at - its my baby.
I do not know with you how you rate technology to be good or better. One thing I know, you are reaping and enjoying the goodies of new technology.
For some members, there is more to what reach your eyes and ears - and behind those things are technicalities.
Nothing personal.
Best regards
Post by: Qman on Jun 18, 2003 at 02:57 PM
no problem with 100v kasi i'm using dati surplus widescreen tv kaya meron akong AVR na me 100v.jofkevski
you can send the pics : [email protected]
salamat sa mga recos and will look sa internet para sa mga specs & features nila.
thanks for the recos and buying tips bro....
blade. 8)
pa email na rin sa kin ang pics
[email protected]
Post by: john5479 on Jun 18, 2003 at 02:58 PM
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 18, 2003 at 02:58 PM
"If tubes is your way to go, then you are one of those that develop a liking for music reproduced by (frequency--limited) tubes. Perhaps I may want the music (minus some of the music elements in the real) also in my relaxing time. But I think I will be more content if what I am hearing is closer to the real sound (or at least nearer to the sound the audio engineer intend it to be)."
specs are specs but my theory is music cannot be measured per se. transistors are made to measure better.
as for vacuum tubes being frequency limited I guess the point here is how they sound as a whole. I haven't heard jacintha's voice as close to live in a tube amp than any ss as of yet considering the price as well. Jazz Instrumentals? never heard a piano sound more real, percussion? sounds good...does it lack detail? I don't think so..and I have ss amplification as well for comparison, since ss measures well right ? so when I say tubes sound better sonically its because I have experienced listening to both. I like my music with detail, and the tube amps I've listened to have it.
"Thanks also for siting the 30-minute heat-up time for tube to really crank-up good music. You are really tube lover who can tolerate 30-minute wait time to enjoy music. I may say I salute you tube lovers! Can we coin a word for you guys? how about TubePhile (as in audio phile)?"
I am a music lover and I want to listen to great music not good music ;)
elements in music? tubes have the warmth and give body to music (I love music, I play the guitar and listen to gigs and acoustic events) music is not dry and listening to a live event..do you really need to hear every detail in order to enjoy it ? detail is not the only element in music.
you can read a lot of technical journal's and quote's from "experts" but the main question here is if you like the sound. I prefer the warm sound of tubes and since my goal here is to "listen" to music I don't care about specs..except for some like the wattage and power consumption. and one more thing, please consider the parts available during those times...try listening to tube amps with much better capacitors, resistors and the like.
but would I really care if a certain electronic part measures better than the other if what I am looking for or what I am concerned is the end product ? no.
Yes component matching is essential and ss mated with the right speakers will sound good...but you can apply that same argument to tube amps matched with the right speakers.
I am not bashing SS, I have ss for my ht and I like it, not because I don't have to wait but its because ss fits my movie preferences,like I've said each has its own advantages.
By the way this is just for the use of vacuum tubes in music...transistors bash tubes in other areas of electronics...I can't imagine networking equipment, cpu's still using vacuum tubes...achieving the blazing speeds and small size factor would not be possible if vacuum tubes were used. ;D
Hi John5479!
I like your answer. You only proved to me that there is no real value for me to go tubes. A lot of people says differently of tubes and SS amp. In the end, it is you who will decide based on your preferences. So i rest my case with you.
regards
Post by: john5479 on Jun 18, 2003 at 03:01 PM
Post by: rtsy on Jun 18, 2003 at 03:42 PM
we will end on the same maintenance issues.
Both have pros & cons. Like I mentioned, choose your own poison. I'm sure there are many who won't mind increased maintenance (tube or S/S) so long as it's the sound they like.
2 - Sorry about your idea of circuitry. I am a person who hates spaghetti wires (I saw a lot of tube amps underneath).
Yeah, lots of careless DIYers and even manufacturers make frazzled looking innards. I remember a friend claiming that many users of the transformer-baed passive he DIYed claim that the unit sounds better with spaghetti wires.
However, have you seen ANY of the handiworks of Hypertriode? Most systems (including the universe!) are subject to entropy but Hypertiode's masterpieces go against the grain...cosmos out of chaos. :D
Magkaiba tayo ano? Ako, I am awed by good circuit board and assemblies without jumper wires. To me, it shows that a clean assembly without jumping wires are well-designed (PCB) boards.
This presents another tunig tool. Hard-wired stuff can be re-wired to all silver or what your choice of conductor is.
Anyway, for repair issues, I can repair both if I want to.
Good for you. However, how many other hobbyists, especially newbies, can?
So now, I still dont see the value you are talking about. I agree tubes are something unusual (kasi nga konti lang ang nahilig dyan).
Sorry. I was merely pointing out that as an "economic value," those examples I've mentioned have churned returns on investment that beats major stock market indexes. :D
Maganda yung Audio note ah! preamp lang yata yon - hindi pa amp. magkano naman ang bayad sa safety non?
I sent you links to Audio Note DACs, not pre-amps. The DACs (and even pre-amps) start at around US$600.
If you want safe and cheap, there are the integrated vintage Dynacos.
Post by: levi on Jun 18, 2003 at 04:00 PM
Just my 1 cent
Post by: john5479 on Jun 18, 2003 at 06:36 PM
Tubes still have their use for today...even sound engineers use vacuum tubes for recordings and some still use vacuum tube guitar amps...and they churn out great music. The amp that senheisser came out for their most expensive headphone uses vacuum tubes. A headphone using tube amplification...what will happen to detail? resolution ? what gives ? what were they thinking? maybe it just sounds right.
there is no right or wrong...if you like ss, then stick to it. its good to know whats behind it or how they will say an amp will sound good if it measures well, but don't present it as the absolute truth, as the real basis is how it sounds. Whether you want to wait or just plug and play its all up to you..life's full of compromises. In this hobby its best to have an open mind and hear before you believe or decide if its good for you. to those who couldn't hear the difference between ss and tubes...lucky guys ;)
Post by: rtsy on Jun 18, 2003 at 10:25 PM
I had lots of misconception before so I went around to learn. I learned a lot from other members and trying out different gears.
...
Get info from reliable experienced people and read informative articles.
...
I dont want other people to decide based on misconception.
its good to know whats behind it or how they will say an amp will sound good if it measures well, but don't present it as the absolute truth, as the real basis is how it sounds.
...
In this hobby its best to have an open mind and hear before you believe or decide if its good for you.
Above are golden nuggets of wisdom for audio hobbyists at all levels. Thanks Levi and john5479!
To nudge the thread back to "what's the biggest reason why I DIDN'T choose tube (well, at least for amps)," I'd like to share now why the single most expensive (by list price) piece of equipment in my system is a solid state power amp:
1--Doc Stereophile was quicker than me to the draw for Denis G's Conrad Johnson MV55 at Sonny Tuazon's. (Grabe kasi talaga synergy ng CJ at ng aking chosen speakers: Sonus Faber).
2--The next best tube amps that mate well with my speakers are way beyond my budget (Conrad Johnson CAV50 or the even dearer MV60).
3--I wanted single ended sound but don't have speakers for affordable single ended amps.
IMHO, single ended + class A operation + zero negative feedback really preserves the energy, timing, and tone of real music.
The S/S Pass Aleph gave all the above without the triode magic (clarity, soundstage, tube rolling) but with 60wpc--more than enough to drive my86db (in)sensitive speakers in a small room.
This to me was a sufficient enough compromise so here dear friends is why I don't have tubes in my power amp. (Binawi ko na lang sa pre-amp at DAC!) :-*
On a side note, negative feedback is a good example of something that measures good but doesn't quite hit it right musically. Applying negative feedback on a circuit greatly reduces distortion numbers which in theory should make for a more accurate amp.
I read some tech geeks try to explain this phenomenon as the feedback loop screwing up the temporal dimension of the music. I'll leave the explaining to them.
To my ears, what I hear is a reduced sense of impact that I hear most obviously on percussion instruments. With negative feedback, snare drums are not as crisp, the piano sounds like a thick layer of felt was placed between the hammers and the strings, bass slaps are not as defined.
Post by: bruno on Jun 19, 2003 at 01:25 AM
Post by: john5479 on Jun 19, 2003 at 08:02 AM
Post by: alfa on Jun 19, 2003 at 08:29 AM
How about a second hand tube power amp? How much willl that cost? Again enough to power a sonus concerto.
TIA.
Post by: geko on Jun 19, 2003 at 10:17 AM
If a certain individual says this and that...take it with a grain of salt, whats important here is to have an open mind, I believe the person who started this thread wants to get the point of view of an ss user why he doesn't want to delve into tube amplification not to say that tubes are superior or something like that. At the same time, clear misconceptions...with the wealth of info you can get from the net its easy to get swayed into thinking something is inferior to this and that. Great reviews, you buy it...without auditioning...you buy something, you like the sound..but want to find articles to give you comfort knowing you bought something thats well reviewed...like its the best.
well said, john5479. exactly the same sentiments as mine. :)
in my case, my reasons for not moving into tubes yet are as follows:
1. fear of the unknown - tubes, at the moment, are still
a mystery to me. i still need to understand them better.
2. budgetary constraints - don't we all have this problem. :)
last night, i was lying on our sala floor listening to jheena lodwick's all my loving album. in between being awake & being asleep, i felt her songs giving me a feeling of certain sweet bliss & finally lulling me to a restful sleep. if tubes can do the same to me & take me to a higher plane of enjoyment then i will definity go for tubes in the future. ;D
but, of course, that's just me. ;)
Post by: ambel on Jun 19, 2003 at 11:51 AM
they made tube gears that would last several limetimes.
These gears are legendary for their reliability AT&T was
surprised when they upgraded their trans Atlantic telephone network in the early 90''s. When they replaced those tube repeaters which are submerged in
the Atlantic ocean since the 1930's without maintenance. The tube and equipment is still working.
I have seen and heard the Western Electric 43A theather amp which was built in 1932 untouched that came out from an old movie house still in tip top shape.
The Western Electric 300B is rated at 40,000 hrs
thats the minimum it will last a lifetime.
There is Bendix their Red Banks tubes were a mainstay
in the early stage of the US space program. Really
built to outlast even your sturdy SS 400G's at 600 Celcius. If you want to see tube electronics that was
done the way it should be look for Altec Lansing amps,
Marantz and every industrial tube gears that were
sold to the US military.
Post by: rtsy on Jun 19, 2003 at 01:19 PM
single ended...less parts...less stages...the better the musical integrity is
Amen!
And mine's coupled to a back-to-basics non-oversampling, filterless DAC and a single stage (though phase inverting) pre-amp, and speakers with 1st order crossovers.
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stup...endously! 8)
I would love to have those aleph amps if not for the price and the power it consumes...
300w so long as it's on, with or without signal. :(
oh did I forget that these amps require some warming up according to nelson pass himself to sound its best ? :)
True.
To my ears, it sounds good from a cold start. It just gets better as you approach the 1hr mark.
Interestingly though, I like it because it doesn't sound like solid state at all. ;D
Post by: rtsy on Jun 19, 2003 at 01:28 PM
One thing about tube reliability. Western Electric
they made tube gears that would last several limetimes.
Ambel,
One of the points raised is reliability of comparably priced tubes vs. S/S.
Might you have ideas on how much those 300Bs or better, those complete amps you mentioned cost when it was still manufactured?
I think this information will help put reliability AND value in perspective.
Thanks in advance!
Post by: rtsy on Jun 19, 2003 at 01:33 PM
The biggest reason why I won't go to tubes is because I love deep bass as much as i love the mids and the highs. Tubes just can't provide the bass I'd love to hear and feel like SS does.
Watch the announcements for listening sessions at http://www.pinoydiophiles.com/ , especially if there is a session at Ike's (a.k.a., choobs) for his Voigts with Radioshack drivers. Also, try to hear the Voigts at Sonny Tuazons.
But don't bother if 10Hz (using 9wpc amps) is not deep enough bass for you. 8)
Post by: rtsy on Jun 19, 2003 at 01:41 PM
1. fear of the unknown - tubes, at the moment, are still
a mystery to me. i still need to understand them better.
This is my exact same reason why despite how convinced I am about the sound of SETs, I haven't gone into it.
I feel there is still so much to understand like which power tubes to go for (300B, 2A3, 45, 211/845, Monica/Darling, etc.), which input tubes to drive the power tubes (6SN7, or even Sakuma's like drives like philosophy, etc.), coupling caps vs. direct-coupled, which transformers, etc.
Further, one does not make decisions on SET (note, not ALL tube amps) based on the amp alone. It's a commitment also in terms of speakers...you can only use those with sensitivities better than mid-90 db and I love Sonus Fabers. :(
To a certain extent, SET is also a commitment to silver wiring that can get $$$.
if tubes can do the same to me & take me to a higher plane of enjoyment then i will definity go for tubes in the future. ;D
If you love your current system so much, quit auditioning and just enjoy. When you find quibbles with your set-up, then that's when you look around. But this advise is like a surgeon's operation: I can't do it for myself. ;D
Post by: ambel on Jun 19, 2003 at 02:28 PM
But the gears are leased. Bell Labs/Western Electric is
a monopoly they don't sell their equiptments you lease
it and they will maintain after the lease has expired. all
those gears are destroyed that's why they are so rare.
And most of the those amps are in Japan and it's also
Western Electric who founded NEC in Japan in the late
1800's. That's why all the WE amps are revered by the
Japanese.
SET single ended triodes when designed conservatively
or tube amps in general will be reliable.
Except those modern designer who wants to push the
tube parameters to their limit.
And another thing the QC on the tubes that were manufactured in Asia and Eastern Europe which basically
are responsible for most of the failure.
Compared it to a 70 year old 45 tube that has exposed to the element. Clean and test it and if test good
plug it on your amp and enjoy the music.
Post by: tuff_u_gong on Jun 19, 2003 at 02:39 PM
The biggest reason why I won't go to tubes is because I love deep bass as much as i love the mids and the highs. Tubes just can't provide the bass I'd love to hear and feel like SS does.
in a sense that's correct, since here in Manila one has very limited choices of speakers to match with tube amps, specially with single-ended triode (SET) tube amps. (although there's been a recent addition to that list: vintage dog's brines-fostex crossoverless speakers!)
however, it's a very common misconception that tubes can't do bass. in fact, with the proper speakers, BASS can sound tighter, faster and even more lifelike with tube amps than with most solid state amps.
correct me if i'm wrong but i also think that tube amps can handle most subwoofers pretty well since the latter have very high, and often, flat impedance specifications.
as for floorstanders that can slam with your tube gear, you might want to visit www.wiredstate.com or www.pinoydiophiles.com and look for forums under the headings: voigt, brines-fostex, coincident.
Post by: wackymen on Jun 19, 2003 at 08:53 PM
Post by: levi on Jun 19, 2003 at 10:34 PM
Is there such a thing as an integrated tube amp? How much does a decent second hand cost (enough to power a sonus concerto)
How about a second hand tube power amp? How much willl that cost? Again enough to power a sonus concerto.
TIA.
Alfa,
Im using a Scott Integrated Amp. It has only 18 watts but it can drive my B&W 603 floorstanders. Im not sure if it can handle SF concerto with its low impedance and sensitivity. You can try the TS Audio of Corrsty, I know it was able to drive different models of SF. Its less than 20 grand.
Post by: levi on Jun 19, 2003 at 10:39 PM
well said, john5479. exactly the same sentiments as mine. :)
in my case, my reasons for not moving into tubes yet are as follows:
1. fear of the unknown - tubes, at the moment, are still
a mystery to me. i still need to understand them better.
2. budgetary constraints - don't we all have this problem. :)
last night, i was lying on our sala floor listening to jheena lodwick's all my loving album. in between being awake & being asleep, i felt her songs giving me a feeling of certain sweet bliss & finally lulling me to a restful sleep. if tubes can do the same to me & take me to a higher plane of enjoyment then i will definity go for tubes in the future. ;D
but, of course, that's just me. ;)
I would describe it this way. You will not only feel the song. Its as if the singer is singing beside you until your in dreamland. Try to visit the shop of Hyperaudio and audition the tubes. Just my 1 cent.
Post by: john5479 on Jun 20, 2003 at 03:02 AM
Post by: rtsy on Jun 20, 2003 at 06:05 AM
You can try the TS Audio of Corrsty, I know it was able to drive different models of SF. Its less than 20 grand.
I had the 34.1 for a while. I was forced to sell it because: 1-- the AKG K1000 I was to mate it with never arrived and 2--I could help a fellow audiophile improve his system for not much $$$ by selling the TS to him.
With appropriate (entry level) speakers (90db up and fairly flat impedance like the Heybrook, Missions), it'll be hard for any S/S at twice it's price to beat it's warmth and tonality.
As for TS and Concerto...in a smallish room, at reasonable listening levels, and with simple music, pwede.
Post by: Blade on Jun 20, 2003 at 07:50 AM
will just partner them with Missions & BWs
if ever i go tubes, me alternative pa rin akong SS kasi i still have my HT setup.
depende na lang kung anong music ang gusto
para i can switch to tubes or SS ::) ::)
pero for now : am just happy & contented sa mga auditions c/o friends with simple or "astig" audio setups
thanks.
blade. 8)
Post by: john5479 on Jun 20, 2003 at 08:25 AM
I had the 34.1 for a while. I was forced to sell it because: 1-- the AKG K1000 I was to mate it with never arrived and 2--I could help a fellow audiophile improve his system for not much $$$ by selling the TS to him.
Hope this doesn't happen to me since i'm awaiting my akg1000's to pair with my tube integrated amp :)
Post by: geko on Jun 20, 2003 at 12:10 PM
I would describe it this way. You will not only feel the song. Its as if the singer is singing beside you until your in dreamland. Try to visit the shop of Hyperaudio and audition the tubes. Just my 1 cent.
audition the amps and try to hear jacintha's rendition of danny boy and moon river ;)
i would try to do just that in the very near future. i could already imagine jacintha singing in front of me... :D
kakatakot lang at baka bumalik ang "SARS" ko kasi di ko pa nagagamot "wallet anemia" ko. ;D
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 20, 2003 at 07:08 PM
Well, you see, what your amp does (like the tubes), is to make their respective signature of sound reproduction. The NAD on the too soft and laid back, the Denon on the too laid back, the marantz on slightly laid back, the yamaha on the accurate, the pioneer on the bright, the tubes on its own coloration. So whats new to listen about. Again, the sound you listen in the tube is part of the tube technicalities, and technicalities we will not avoid. But in the end, as you said, as you listen, whether you want the sound it produced, and if you did, then you are one happy person to own one. so do I in my SS amp. I hope we will not spend so much time to defend our respective subjectivity in selecting our respective music sound.
First of all such cool site guys, never really thought this site has an audio page. Next, re this issue about tubes and SS.
I can not help but correct you about tubes and SS. Being an SS designer for a two years in a research center. strings like used in guitars and to a certain extent other instruments generate even ordered harmonics. Meaning the tone that I hear from an instrument is both the fundamental notes and its haromic derivatives all even ordered. Now what do I use to reproduce that sound, the options are....
a device where quantum mechanics rule (which screws typical thermodynamic universe) or thermodynamic universe where laws of complex physics is just turned into random heat. SS are devices that follows the rules of quantum physics where all its idiosyncracies are amplified a thousand fold. So if I use an SS amp to reproduce a tone bed of a musical piece, I get the fundamental notes, the even order harmonics plus the odd order harmonics, hey wait a minute odd order harmonics is not suppose to be there it is not part of the sound I want. Tubes on the other hand do not follow these rules of physics, they say yup there is odd order harmonics in there, but i just convert to heat, way novel approach just like life, it should be simple and pragmatic.
Being a tube afficionado and ex SS designer, I say I like tube's approach to music and tones, don't get me wrong I can still design an SS 8th order negative feedback amp with a wide loop gain bandwidth.
Now on coloration, it is a subjective description of constructive distortion across time. An ideal device either SS or tube does not create distortion so has no coloration, and can amplify across several frequencies but not true on a practical non linear device tube or SS. So coloration is a fact of life can't get away from it, just listen to the ones you prefer and that will be your ultimate compromise. Problem is, lotsa people think they hear coloration but actually they are hearing odd ordered distortion, just try this experiment with a passive preamp(which by the has no coloration) and a high output CD player into a tube and SS amp then A/B the two you will know what I mean.
There is no argument here really, if you wanna hear odd order harmonics, then so be it but please accept the fact that what you hear is not part of the original material and do not blame it on coloration, ignorance is bliss.
It just like this guy choosing a stripper to go to bed with one guy wants a girl with perfect skin while the other wants to screw a lady with body paint all over. Its each to his own posion. Really!
JM
;D
Post by: DViant on Jun 20, 2003 at 07:29 PM
The time needed to invest into the hobby.
Doesn't fit my applications.
Most are pre-owned equipment or insanely expensive when buying brand new.
If I had the time & inclination I might dabble into it. Everyone needs a hobby...
Post by: rtsy on Jun 20, 2003 at 09:25 PM
Difficulty & hassles of sourcing the equipment.
Have you visited Hyperaudio? How about Lito Gelano? I keep on hearing other names like Mang Rod and John Poscablo but have yet to meet them.
You want entry level but new? Talk to corrsty and ask Hyperaudio about Antique Sound Labs.
You got the moolah? Go to AVDI for VTL; Listening in Syle for Conrad-Johnson, Air Tight, Audio Note; Audio Den for Rogue Audio, BAT.
What are you looking for? Maybe http://www.pinoydiophiles.com can help.
The time needed to invest into the hobby.
If you DIY, yes, you need time. If you buy old, unreliable stuff, you need time and money. If you choose well (and there are lots of choices), it's almost plug and forget.
I've never had to seek service due to breakdown on my 20 year old pre-amp.
Doesn't fit my applications.
Hope you can share what your applications are.
Most are pre-owned equipment or insanely expensive when buying brand new.
If I had the time & inclination I might dabble into it. Everyone needs a hobby...
Just keep an open mind. Visit Hyperaudio, join one of the Pinoydiophiles sessions, etc. Just be exposed to it. If you don't like it, you lose an afternoon or two. If you do, it could be a lifetime of bliss, also poverty, but bliss first of all. :D
Post by: rtsy on Jun 20, 2003 at 09:27 PM
Hope this doesn't happen to me since i'm awaiting my akg1000's to pair with my tube integrated amp :)
Where's your AKG K1000 coming from? Can I piggyback? :D
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 21, 2003 at 02:21 AM
Seriously, consider the tube approach, I have been in the hobby for more than a decade and I built most of my stuff. It can get expensive (if you build amps with top parts like I do) but there is a cheap option. So there is no excuse.
Else if it is religion, then I submit. You can not ever convince a muslim that pork is really good especially bacon.
Give us a howl or PM the tube guys here or join our auditioning sessions, newbies to tube audio is welcome to our group.
SS have its merits so does tubes but if you really have not tried tubes then how can you comparatively say tubes are worse than SS. Try it (using a good cheap one, not using a bad expensive one or even worse a bad cheap one) then give me your verdict then I will not argue. You can never argue with preference. Else you don not know a F*** about what you are saying.
Post by: levi on Jun 21, 2003 at 02:26 AM
Post by: Dracula on Jun 21, 2003 at 08:45 AM
pare dalawa lang yan, kung ayaw may dahilan kung gusto may paraan.
Seriously, consider the tube approach, I have been in the hobby for more than a decade and I built most of my stuff. It can get expensive (if you build amps with top parts like I do) but there is a cheap option. So there is no excuse.
Else if it is religion, then I submit. You can not ever convince a muslim that pork is really good especially bacon.
Give us a howl or PM the tube guys here or join our auditioning sessions, newbies to tube audio is welcome to our group.
SS have its merits so does tubes but if you really have not tried tubes then how can you comparatively say tubes are worse than SS. Try it (using a good cheap one, not using a bad expensive one or even worse a bad cheap one) then give me your verdict then I will not argue. You can never argue with preference. Else you don not know a F*** about what you are saying.
How much would a good cheap one cost?
Post by: john5479 on Jun 21, 2003 at 10:38 AM
How much would a good cheap one cost?
got one for 12k :)
Post by: john5479 on Jun 21, 2003 at 10:42 AM
Post by: Dracula on Jun 21, 2003 at 10:59 AM
got one for 12k :)
saan mo nabili send me a pm thanks!
Post by: rtsy on Jun 21, 2003 at 01:09 PM
So glad to see you here. For a while there, it felt like reason, open-mindedness, and tolerance could not prevail. 8)
What would be a good way to demonstrate or illustrate (without resorting to an actual audition) odd vs. even order harmonics? (e.g., how's odd order is playing a C chord and even order playing a C#?)
Would there be music that would actually sound good with lots of odd order harmonics in the reproduction? Or is this really a matter of taste?
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 21, 2003 at 05:59 PM
A purist would say...... I only wanna hear C...I dont like ur system
A rationalist person would say.....dammit that is C....Cminor C major and C# are all Cs, so what is the fuss
A clueless person would say....it does not really matter, I dunno what C sounds like anyways
An avoider person would say ...... it is C but not quite
A blamer ignorant bloke would say ..... C was in there damn coloration got in the way
A delusional person would say ..... I don not care about C all I wanna hear is the coloration
A newbie would say .... yup it is C and C# but what can I do, this is the best system I have for now
A dead ender would say ...... As far as I am concerned all Cs I hear is C next level categories of C is esoteric socially snobbish crap.
Either way, as I said when people listen to SS and tubes and then they make a decision for preference. What ever type they fall on to sure got my respect ... bec they made a fair choice.
On Cheap amps, check this guy arnoldC he built an amp for 10K including tubes, or check corrsty he has really good entry level gear or hypertriode he can custom make one for you on the budget you got. It aint expensive it just our egos (as I ask permission from the gracious moderators for the indulgence) that makes it unreachable. But the path to good tube gear is not that exhobirant.
JM :o
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 21, 2003 at 06:28 PM
I always believe people are born good and reasonable but life molds them otherwise, it is our moral obligation to try and help reason prevail else we are par unreasonable.
You see, people hide intention behind opinion and opinion can sometimes be pretty convincing. We should always look at what intent was meant before we consider opinion delivered.
Thus if opinion delivered has inconsistent intentions, then the real intent is to create havoc. Everything else is just thrash talk. And that is the credibility you gain not sense of fairness.
Not much different from a high school kid shaving his head and joining the neo nazis. He will be fighting for patriotism today, racism tomorrow. They all deserve to attend the nuremberg trials.
Then if such intent is the case, then it is a fair fight between good and evil. Be steadfast you have the moral higherground. Reason someday in some f***ed-up way will prevail.
JM
Post by: rtsy on Jun 22, 2003 at 04:39 PM
I always believe people are born good and reasonable but life molds them otherwise, it is our moral obligation to try and help reason prevail else we are par unreasonable.
Pare, bibili muna ako ng scuba gear then I'll re-read your post. And lalim, pare. Ano ba ininom ninyo kagabi.
Oh, belated happy birthday. :D
Too bad I couldn't join you guys. I was playing foreman to the repairs being done at my place. I think cement hardened inside my ear canal.
I took the chance to audition S*k*r* amps and B*s* speakers instead of listening to your 300b & Voigts. I still didn't like them. Kidding. :D
Post by: H a n $ on Jun 22, 2003 at 05:52 PM
Money budget..
Just started with my HT setup... up next stereo setup naman tube amp next target but budget budget muna target pala ;D ;D
Post by: audio_tyro on Jun 22, 2003 at 10:10 PM
Thus I like both, as much as I like day and night. I like the lushness, liquidity, warmth of tubes. But no question, I prefer the slam, speed, tunefull and deep (subterranean) bass of most solid states. Remedy? I look for a solid state that also also has the virtues of tubes. For why not enjoy the best of both worlds!
Afterall, a very good tube amp (if ever there was one) will sound equal to a very good solid state amp. Let me show you a bit of simple arithmetic to elucidate that:
Let's say a live recording of say, Norah Jones is 100%. With a plethora of brands/models of both SS and Tube amps around, it will no longer be difficult to find a very good tube amp that can deliver 99.9% performance of that live event. In the same manner, it is not impossible to find a very good SS amp also delivers 99.9% performance to the singing of Norah Jones as you hear it live.
If 99.9% is equal to 99.9%, then a very good tube amp is equal in sonic performance to a very good SS amp. So what's the fuss all about? ;D
Both tubes and SS amps have their inherent disadvantages too. I hope you are well aware of these. Some tubes will sound wooly and too lush, a clear departure from the real thing. Or worse good tubes will sound bad once it reaches their end-of-life (say after 2,000+ hours for power tubes). So if you listen 1,000 hours a day, your tubes will only last for 2 days! hehehe (pano kaya mangyari yon?) Such departure from the live recording will make it far from high fidelity repro, not to mention you have to buy new tubes again (if you can still find that model!). SS amps on the other hand is known to exhibit even ordered harmonics (which is ear fatiguing). But, it's ear fartiguing if you listen loud all the time. For folks like me having some war-freak neighbors, my listening sessions at nights is quite soft... hence not much ear fatigue really! Lucky for tubes they mostly make lots of odd ordered harmonics, which is pleasing to the ears, yet still they are bloody fake, hence low-fi. Now, you're tell me, if I play a tube amp loud even at midnight, my horrible neighbors will not attack me? You tell that to the dead marines in Iraq.
So like I said, despite everything - I like both (SS and tubes). I have a tube sounding SS amp (with all the slam, dynamics, speed and tuneful deep bass as well as the lovely liquidity that many tube amps struggle to achieve!). Next I might get a tubed DAC, if not a tubed output cd player; a living testament to the fact that I like day and night (work like hell in the day, see the sun, enjoy traffic, meet people, audition and buy audio gears, etc. etc), then... f**k the night away! Now if you tell me to give up one over the other, I will just smile at you ;D
Post by: av_phile on Jun 23, 2003 at 09:26 AM
Both tubes and SS amps have their inherent disadvantages too. I hope you are well aware of these. Some tubes will sound wooly and too lush, a clear departure from the real thing. Or worse good tubes will sound bad once it reaches their end-of-life (say after 2,000+ hours for power tubes). So if you listen 1,000 hours a day, your tubes will only last for 2 days! hehehe (pano kaya mangyari yon?) Such departure from the live recording will make it far from high fidelity repro, not to mention you have to buy new tubes again (if you can still find that model!). SS amps on the other hand is known to exhibit even ordered harmonics (which is ear fatiguing). But, it's ear fartiguing if you listen loud all the time. For folks like me having some war-freak neighbors, my listening sessions at nights is quite soft... hence not much ear fatigue really! Lucky for tubes they mostly make lots of odd ordered harmonics, which is pleasing to the ears, yet still they are bloody fake, hence low-fi. Now, you're tell me, if I play a tube amp loud even at midnight, my horrible neighbors will not attack me? You tell that to the dead marines in Iraq.
Points well taken, but I think you got it mixed-up. SS generate odd-order harmonics and tubes have even order harmonics. Not the other way around. ;D
Post by: Blade on Jun 23, 2003 at 09:47 AM
BUDGET...
for less than 15k, what tube amp could i get? recommendations are welcome...
since i have my existing HT setup, would love to have a tube amp for audio para i can get the best of both worlds...
i can switch from SS to tubes depending on my mood and musical preference...
but luckily we were able to audition Doc's great setup wherein you can use both your tube and SS simul (just have to make certain adjustments depende sa listening preference)...
imho, kanya kanya pa rin talaga diskarte...tutal ikaw naman ang makikinig...
at least you have both tubes & SS at your house... ;D ;D
blade. 8)
Post by: audio_tyro on Jun 23, 2003 at 09:52 AM
Post by: audio_tyro on Jun 23, 2003 at 09:57 AM
"What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?"
BUDGET...
for less than 15k, what tube amp could i get? recommendations are welcome...
since i have my existing HT setup, would love to have a tube amp for audio para i can get the best of both worlds...
i can switch from SS to tubes depending on my mood and musical preference...
but luckily we were able to audition Doc's great setup wherein you can use both your tube and SS simul (just have to make certain adjustments depende sa listening preference)...
imho, kanya kanya pa rin talaga diskarte...tutal ikaw naman ang makikinig...
at least you have both tubes & SS at your house... ;D ;D
blade. 8)
Hi Blade, well first of all, I hope your speakers have a sensitivity rating somewhere in the 90s dB. Then you have have two options:
1. Contact ArnoldC on how to build a 2A3 single ended tube amp.
2. Save up some more (add a few thousand bucks) and get Corrtsy's TS Audio tube amps (around P18K more or less). Kunting tumbling na lang naka TS Audio amp ka na. Galing din tumunog yon for the price!
If your speakers are around 88dB only (or below), you should get used to listening to it at 3PM volume position of the TS Audio (for instance). No sound can be had at 11 o' clock volume position. hehe.
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 23, 2003 at 11:18 AM
SS have its merits so does tubes but if you really have not tried tubes then how can you comparatively say tubes are worse than SS. Try it (using a good cheap one, not using a bad expensive one or even worse a bad cheap one) then give me your verdict then I will not argue. You can never argue with preference. Else you don not know a F*** about what you are saying.
Well said. Problem kasi sa thread na ito, binabago yung tema ng usapan - reason why YOU dont ... then they insist their tubes are better than SS. Hindi lamang ito ang thread about this discussion, and such discussion existed even long before with hardcore audiophiles. If you want to declare in a thread that tube is better than SS, then create another thread to that effect.
So like audio tyro - I just smile at them. So if you insist tubes is better, then I quote johnmarco on this again ... You can never argue with preference. Else you dont know a F*** about what you are saying.
Taking this hobby is not only acquiring SARS. This is in fact a bottomless pit. After acquiring the tube, you acquire high sensitive speaker, and on and on and on. Well at least you enjoy the fall to the pit.
Post by: rtsy on Jun 23, 2003 at 11:36 AM
Well said. Problem kasi sa thread na ito, binabago yung tema ng usapan - reason why YOU dont ... then they insist their tubes are better than SS.
It's one thing to stay clearly on topic about why folks don't go into tubes. And I agree with you that we should stay the course.
However, it's another thing to make sweeping general statements THAT ARE FALSE or at least not true in all instances about tubes that will then be used to answer the question about why not go into tubes.
Peace!
Post by: john5479 on Jun 23, 2003 at 11:38 AM
Post by: Superman on Jun 23, 2003 at 12:14 PM
the best part is...whatever we want, whatever is our taste, we can always claim that it's the best...what other people say won't matter...it's YOU who matters (tama ba grammar??? ;D) ...thanks! 8)
pero siyempre, ako tubes pa rin...even the re-sale value of tubes mas OK...but again, that's me...
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 23, 2003 at 12:37 PM
Good points made guys, I do agree, again I respect preference over religion (that's why audio tyro is still a good friend of mine though he did not show up in me b-day bash, lagot cya!). On speed and attack of SS. I certainly agree that most SS amps have fast decay and ascension, but it is a fact that speed and decay/ascension is caused by negative feedback thresholds implemented in most SS amps. Not bec it is only inherent in SS. If you have access to let us say a VTL50 or an ST70, decay and attack iis also inherent to these amps because of the negative feedback mechanism they utilize.
It is a fact that negative feedback can be used in any active device tube or SS it just so happen that SS amps utilize them more while most tube designs do not use feedback at all.
Feedback is especially important for SS as thermal runaway can be a huge problem (just imagine the look i a guy's face who recently got his krell toasted, I have seen one). Negative feedback is needed to put SS devices in steady state, sonic consequence is decay and attack. Now, that sound is heavily colorated (even darth hansen will not disagree with this) as negative feedback is a deliberate reintroduction of off phase controlled distortion in the earlier driver stages of an amp to bring the SS operating properties within a predetermined power/thermal ratio envelope.
Also, as another note, you can design a 300B with feedback and get the same results or maybe better, all takes is a cap and a resistor and do the math to determine the feedback roll on and roll off points and there you are.
That is why CJs have been popular, some SS guys who wants to move into tubes but can not let go of fast attack and decay would definitely get CJ for their liking.
Again it boils down to preferred distortion, coloration and harmonics.
Whatta ya think?
JM ???
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 23, 2003 at 12:50 PM
We downed beer, bourbon, cognac and liquer. It was a pop up gig so everyone had a good time, u should have been there lotsa fun and alaskahan.
JM
Post by: audio_tyro on Jun 23, 2003 at 01:36 PM
Sabi ko nga I love both SS and tubes. Hayaan mo, if I win in next year's election, I will have Mark Levinson and CJ ART systems driving seven sets of different speakers (palit-palit kada araw!).
Pare I text you that I will come if you will invite me, kakahiya pumunta hindi naman invited. Is this still your cp# or nagbago ka na to Smart? ==> 0917-535-___4 ? Ikaw ang lagot. (lusot?)
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 23, 2003 at 02:28 PM
JM
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 23, 2003 at 02:33 PM
If your speaker is a ployprop type then most prbobably you need a high output amp (tube or SS) if not ur ok with the low wattage amps. I particularly like paper coned speakers mas consistent and performance.
JM
Post by: jofkevski on Jun 23, 2003 at 03:41 PM
I am about to make that observation - so far, whats the papercone driver speaker you may recommend - I mean medyo within the wharf/mission budget perimeter.
Post by: Garp on Jun 23, 2003 at 03:45 PM
Post by: levi on Jun 23, 2003 at 03:53 PM
The reason why this thread was resurrected was to explain the myth and the facts about tubes and SS. We are not doing a slambook where you can just post anything you like. We want everyone to learn and sometimes explanation needs some comparisons but not gear bashing. Again I want to emphasize that we dont want newbies deciding based on misconceptions and wrong informations.
Levi
Post by: Racio on Jun 23, 2003 at 05:09 PM
If your speakers are around 88dB only (or below), you should get used to listening to it at 3PM volume position of the TS Audio (for instance). No sound can be had at 11 o' clock volume position. hehe.
Please let me just point out pare koi, that to my humble ears, the TS 34.1 could very well drive a pair of 87dB 6ohm monitors to rompin' levels at mere 9 o'clock and can become excruciatingly loud at 12 in an adequately large room. It even reached 2 o'clock on a 35dB gain phonostage w/o clipping. (BTW, I did send you an invite to crash JM's condo that day. ;) hehe.)
Well, I must say that it's a bit disappointing to read all these misconceptions regarding valve amplification. Like what the good ol' prof just reiterated, as there are varying degrees of amplification with sand amps, there are also a good number of tube amps than can knock the socks off most low sens (80-85dB) speakers. Going valve doesn't necessarily mean you also have to go horns.
Now, if we were to talk about the sheer economic practicality of this hobby, unless you turn this into an income generating venture, I'm afraid it's very much non-existent. Hard it may be to accept, lahat ito luho. :P
But indeed, life is too short to miss out on these pleasures, it's shorter still if we perpetually dwell in this disputes like these. I suggest that if one's truly undecided, yah drag your butt to your fave audio shop, then sit back and have a long good listen. Your own aural taste and distinct level of hearing acuity should have final say w/c medium reproduces the most truthful fidelity.
Ultimately, we should deem these audio equipment, either SS or tubes (or tube sounding SS or SS sounding tubes for that matter), as simply a means to an end, a quite attainable right of passage to bliss, a mere conduit to music... the be all end all of it all. Alrighty then? ;)
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 23, 2003 at 10:53 PM
Hi johnmarco!
I am about to make that observation - so far, whats the papercone driver speaker you may recommend - I mean medyo within the wharf/mission budget perimeter.
Here's the joke of it, paper coned driver speakers are expensive way beyond mission class budget but!...... paper cone drivers are cheap and there are good ones too...if you can get a radio shack 500 peso RS1354 driver give me a call I will buy it from you 5 times more (hehehehehe).
Anyways, try this approach, try using fostex drivers, maybe some radio shacks, I use atlas in my homebuilt floor stander and I got it for 900 pesos each. install it in ur mission, make sure they have the same or close Qts (theil-small Q factor) parameters and it should work. Speaker tuning (liters of air and aperture area ) is determined by Qts, if you fit in another driver with the same Qts but using papercones, u should realize a good increase in musicaity. I got to warn u though it is still a hit and miss affair. But be jolly about it.
There is a lot of mission mods that you can do, why not work with that one first.
JM
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 23, 2003 at 10:59 PM
What's holding me from experimenting with tubes? I'm a newbie to electronics and even more so to tubes. I want to build my own (simple 2a3) and this might sound idiotic to some but I don't know where to get transformers! Where can I get cheap ones (meaning not Tamura or Magnaquest). Shipping is SO expensive for transformers. Ok na sana presyo ng Hammond but can't stomach shipping costs. Any suggestion where I can have cheap ones made? Thanks.
Garp,
There is a tamura dealer in town, try hyper triode, he can sell the units to u, he is a tamura dealer. You can also get tangos from him try search the net for local dealers. One approach me and arnoldc did was wind our own spec trannies. I specified the winding form and method and arnold got it winded by a person who wind vacuum tube trannies for the past 40 years. Cost....1200 pesos a pair and it beats the crap out of hammond and magnequest. I do use a lot of tamura and tangos (I got 12 pairs in my repertoire) but this local one is a killer. It will be included in the www.wiredstate.com 10K 2A3 amp project. Check that one out it is a 2A3 kit with pre punched plate and that includes tubes. Play with gourmet parts later once you got it running.
JM
Post by: hyperion on Jun 24, 2003 at 04:36 AM
Quote
Feedback is especially important for SS as thermal runaway can be a huge problem (just imagine the look i a guy's face who recently got his krell toasted, I have seen one). Negative feedback is needed to put SS devices in steady state, sonic consequence is decay and attack. Now, that sound is heavily colorated (even darth hansen will not disagree with this) as negative feedback is a deliberate reintroduction of off phase controlled distortion in the earlier driver stages of an amp to bring the SS operating properties within a predetermined power/thermal ratio envelope.
NFB is in short used to make SS sound tonally more linear than they really are. ;D All this while neglecting the consistent sonic effect of NFB which is to introduce dynamic and timing distortions to music, making it sound less fluid, more sterilized and mechanical.
But NFB does have some usefulness if used in moderation. It can be used to lower output impedance, and hence increase damping factor and improve an amplifier's compatibility with a wider variety of typical reactive multi-way speakers. For rock and other hard edged music, NFB can be employed to create that heavily compressed "galit" sound that might otherwise sound too smooth and tame with zero FB designs.
Quote
Also, as another note, you can design a 300B with feedback and get the same results or maybe better, all takes is a cap and a resistor and do the math to determine the feedback roll on and roll off points and there you are.
Right on. You should give the idea to Arnie. 300B with NFB might be the proper solution for his apetite for Metallica and Marilyn Manson. ;D (pucha bakit walang twisted emoticon dito?)
Quote
That is why CJs have been popular, some SS guys who wants to move into tubes but can not let go of fast attack and decay would definitely get CJ for their liking.
You must be reffering to Audio Research stuff because CJs inherently have blunted rounded sound, fast attacks but extra long decay (in fact longer than some mis-designed directly heated triodes hehehe). Of course CJs because of beam tetrode tubes in ultralinear operation and solid state rectification and regulation still sound harsher and less fluid than good directly heated triodes. OTOH, as you will discover when you finally get to hear my system - that it is the odd combination of subtle refinement and pushy aggression, coyness and authority; and the aggression part is deliberate because some of the music I listen to need that hard edge to sound convincing.
( My system sounds like me of course: maginoo pero medyo bastos hehehe) ;D
Quote
Again it boils down to preferred distortion, coloration and harmonics.
Amen. As always. ;D
Post by: audio_tyro on Jun 24, 2003 at 07:29 AM
prolema partner did not know it was a party, these guys surprised me nalaman ko lang 6pm na, tapos 11pm na nagumpisa, sir racio did all the invites not me. Tinanong ko nga cya why u n russ were not around.
JM
It's okay Sir JM. Actually nagpa-inum din kasi ako nung gabing yon, tagal malasing/matulog nung pina-inum ko'ng 3-week old boy! I think 430AM na kami natapos! Hindi masaya yon!
Nice discussion here regarding tubes and solid state. But when making decisions, a lot of aspects goes into consideration.
Maybe, just maybe... when my kids grow up, I will have both (SS and tubes again).
Post by: Garp on Jun 24, 2003 at 07:58 AM
Here's the joke of it, paper coned driver speakers are expensive way beyond mission class budget but!...... paper cone drivers are cheap and there are good ones too...if you can get a radio shack 500 peso RS1354 driver give me a call I will buy it from you 5 times more (hehehehehe).
Anyways, try this approach, try using fostex drivers, maybe some radio shacks, I use atlas in my homebuilt floor stander and I got it for 900 pesos each. install it in ur mission, make sure they have the same or close Qts (theil-small Q factor) parameters and it should work. Speaker tuning (liters of air and aperture area ) is determined by Qts, if you fit in another driver with the same Qts but using papercones, u should realize a good increase in musicaity. I got to warn u though it is still a hit and miss affair. But be jolly about it.
There is a lot of mission mods that you can do, why not work with that one first.
JM
Thanks for the input Prof. Johnmarc0. Like many here, I am eagerly awaiting the 10K 2a3. I've actually gone to Rene but the tamura really is beyond my budget (I've seen Mickey's prices too). Because this will be my first DIY, chances are I'll melt my transformers or blow some of the capacitors. When I can get one running with the right b+ voltage and plate dissipation at negligible hum levels then maybe I can consider saving for a tamura or tango ;D. I do check wiredstate everyday hoping arnoldc is back and provide more updates.
Is it possible though to cherry pick and not get the entire 2a3 set?
Post by: Johnmarc0 on Jun 24, 2003 at 09:20 AM
Its really up to you, do get in touch with arnold on considerations. I do suggest though that build the amp per spec then modify it the way you want to. It is a direct coupled design so very minimal coloration.
JM
Post by: arnoldc on Jun 25, 2003 at 08:26 AM
Post by: Garp on Jun 25, 2003 at 10:05 AM
Thanks very much for the schematic (to JM too). Yes I think I can't go any lower than 10K on this so I think I'll just wait for your kit. Question lang sir on the schematic (Mods feel free to strike me down if this is out of topic), what's effect of switching on/off the high voltage CT that's connected to the filter?
Post by: arnoldc on Jun 25, 2003 at 10:48 AM
the main switch powers on the system but only the filament/heaters get the initial power. then after 15 seconds, you turn on the standby that give the tubes the B+
the purpose of this is to prolong the life of the tubes by preventing in-rush current and voltage to a "cold" tube.
Post by: rascal101 on Dec 05, 2005 at 03:31 PM
For this reasons, I am more inclined to go with the prevalent technology. A floating ship to my mind is better than barely floating one. :)
The demise of one technology does not necessarily mean that it is bad or has gone for the worse, it has just been superseded by something that is more practical for todays listeners.
Rascal101
Post by: bumblebee on Dec 06, 2005 at 08:28 AM
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Dec 06, 2005 at 04:47 PM
not to go with tubes....
But I bet you....The topic question is very hard to answer once you hear
Norah Jones Sings with great difference....
Cheers.
Post by: ATJr. on Dec 06, 2005 at 04:51 PM
Quote
Feedback is especially important for SS as thermal runaway can be a huge problem (just imagine the look i a guy's face who recently got his krell toasted, I have seen one). Negative feedback is needed to put SS devices in steady state, sonic consequence is decay and attack. Now, that sound is heavily colorated (even darth hansen will not disagree with this) as negative feedback is a deliberate reintroduction of off phase controlled distortion in the earlier driver stages of an amp to bring the SS operating properties within a predetermined power/thermal ratio envelope.
i can not make heads or tails out of this, thermal runaway has nothing to do with negative feedback!
thermal runaway is a function of operating point, how the output transistors are biased, and the heatsinking quality of the amp.
if the output transistors are operated at or beyond their SOA limits, safe operating area, (or region), thermal runaway is sure to follow, how is this?
even though an ss device is rated at 150watts and 15 amps with a Vceo of 150volts, it does not mean that you can operate them at high volts and currents simultaneously. because secondary breakdown can occur at lower Vceo and Ic than the specs for the transistor would imply.
a malfunction in the bias circuitry of the Krell amp was responsible for its getting fried.
Post by: ATJr. on Dec 06, 2005 at 05:02 PM
1. cost, not everybody can affor them.
2. power comsumption, a stereo 35 watts per channel amp will comsume around 300watts power. whereas an ss amp rated at 200 watts per channel will only consume about 100watts even if you play them at very high volumes.
3. uncerteinty of tube availability in future, nobody is making them in volumes, production runs may only be in the tens of thousands. unlike in the late 60's when you can buy JAN tube 12ax7 for a peso each.
Post by: av_phile1 on Dec 06, 2005 at 05:38 PM
BTW, Single Ended Triodes stand on a class of their own, their circuit simplicity has no SS counterpart. For me, if there's any tube gear worth owning and listening, it's SETs.
So why don't I go tubes? I'm sure I'd fall in love with a good SET, with all that even-ordered harmonics coloring the sound to make then euphonic. But I guess I am more into high fidelity than euphony.
Post by: rascal101 on Dec 06, 2005 at 06:23 PM
i can accept that tubes are more musical sounding than ss amps ;D but there are other things to consider:
1. cost, not everybody can affor them.
2. power comsumption, a stereo 35 watts per channel amp will comsume around 300watts power. whereas an ss amp rated at 200 watts per channel will only consume about 100watts even if you play them at very high volumes.
3. uncerteinty of tube availability in future, nobody is making them in volumes, production runs may only be in the tens of thousands. unlike in the late 60's when you can buy JAN tube 12ax7 for a peso each.
Musical sounding to my mind is hard to define because when asked on the two different camps - SS and tubes each one will tell you a different story. Also, this is a debate I would rather not indulge into. But there are a few facts that are undeniable:
1. technology is no longer on the side of vacuum tubes
2. humans today (a great majority) want things that are portable and practical
Rascal101
Post by: JojoD818 on Dec 07, 2005 at 10:21 PM
As rascal said, amps in small packages are more preffered today. The smaller the better nowadays. Though I have my doubts on technology being not in the side of tubes, is technology today only on the side of ss? Why?
But for an evening of intimate personal listening, I'll only go for tubes.
:)
Post by: s2kov on Dec 07, 2005 at 10:28 PM
BTW, Single Ended Triodes stand on a class of their own, their circuit simplicity has no SS counterpart. For me, if there's any tube gear worth owning and listening, it's SETs.
Post by: ATJr. on Dec 08, 2005 at 06:34 AM
Quote
is technology today only on the side of ss? Why?
very easily! no new tubes are being designed, investement in this technology is minimal, only third world countries are producing them because of cheap labor. new production tubes are merely continuations of past designs and very limited in quantity.
solid state technology is still on the rise, n0w we have the 90nanometer ic technology! semicinductors are being shipped in millions of quatity.
Post by: bumblebee on Dec 08, 2005 at 08:08 AM
Post by: ATJr. on Dec 08, 2005 at 07:40 PM
I just remembered. The first computers used tubes. You can just imagine how big they were. And how hot they can get.
yes! ;D the power it required then can provide for a small town! ;D ;D ;D and they kept changing tubes because of frequent brakdowns! it was easy to spot them then, the tubes with bugs attached to them were sure for raplacements, tha was where the term "bugs" started. ;D
Post by: JojoD818 on Dec 09, 2005 at 12:36 AM
very easily! no new tubes are being designed, investement in this technology is minimal, only third world countries are producing them because of cheap labor. new production tubes are merely continuations of past designs and very limited in quantity.
solid state technology is still on the rise, n0w we have the 90nanometer ic technology! semicinductors are being shipped in millions of quatity.
so then maybe the biggest reason why you won't go tubes is because one has to spend a lot of money to have one. ss tech is really cheaper by the minute, i built a digital amp kit the size of a disposable lighter and it sounds very good.
btw, I read about 90nm process in a tech note emailed from a friend in Intel. paves the way to much larger scale computing... wow indeed! new ss gadgets next year maybe? oh well, that's OT.
we only need a small reason to go tubes, and a big one to not. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: eXg on Dec 09, 2005 at 07:29 AM
On cost, i believe there lot of other cheaper tubes (and parts) that can be made to sound good if designed properly and matched with the rest of the gear. (and i wish i have the skill to prove it further ;D.) even the most expensive part can sound bad if not used properly. for me cost of a component is heavily influenced by what others' use and say (more than its sonic value, per se).
Post by: eXg on Dec 09, 2005 at 08:14 AM
It's not enough to just have any tube amp. I think it's important to know that just as there are lousy and excellent SS amps, there are also lousy and excellent tube amps. There are well designed SS amps as there are Tubes. You just have to learn to distinguish.
BTW, Single Ended Triodes stand on a class of their own, their circuit simplicity has no SS counterpart. For me, if there's any tube gear worth owning and listening, it's SETs.
So why don't I go tubes? I'm sure I'd fall in love with a good SET, with all that even-ordered harmonics coloring the sound to make then euphonic. But I guess I am more into high fidelity than euphony.
... and some more...
http://usuarios.uninet.com.br/~edelima/REASONS.htm
Post by: ATJr. on Dec 09, 2005 at 03:18 PM
Post by: jerix on Dec 13, 2005 at 04:18 PM
Post by: rascal101 on Dec 13, 2005 at 04:32 PM
maybe i don't have a "reason" coz am a "tube-user" but what i hate most about it is the weight/size of the amps. they're so bulky that tweaking/playing with them takes extra effort :(. second would be, humming. even branded ones exhibit some hum but of course, one has to press his ear closer to the speaker to notice :)
On cost, i believe there lot of other cheaper tubes (and parts) that can be made to sound good if designed properly and matched with the rest of the gear. (and i wish i have the skill to prove it further ;D.) even the most expensive part can sound bad if not used properly. for me cost of a component is heavily influenced by what others' use and say (more than its sonic value, per se).
Difficult to remove offset voltage in amplifiers whether SS or tubes. You need good layout and need to characterize performance at high ambient temperatures on the amplifying devices. For SS, a coupling or DC blocking cap eliminates this problem.
Post by: brandon on Jan 20, 2006 at 11:54 AM
Answer: What tubes can do, solid-state can do better at lower cost
and greater convenience! ;D
You want the warm 'tubey' sound? Solid-state can duplicate that and
even exceed that with better bass performance. Do a search on
Yahoo! or Google. Type 'tube vs solid-state' as keyword and you should
get the idea that solid-state is not necessarily 'shrill', 'bright' and 'clinical'
sounding if not driven to 'clipping'.
Post by: ATJr. on Jan 20, 2006 at 05:48 PM
Post by: MAtZTER on Jan 20, 2006 at 06:07 PM
Funds too of course.
Post by: rascal101 on Jan 20, 2006 at 06:08 PM
Post by: rascal101 on Jan 20, 2006 at 06:14 PM
Question: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
Answer: What tubes can do, solid-state can do better at lower cost
and greater convenience! ;D
You want the warm 'tubey' sound? Solid-state can duplicate that and
even exceed that with better bass performance. Do a search on
Yahoo! or Google. Type 'tube vs solid-state' as keyword and you should
get the idea that solid-state is not necessarily 'shrill', 'bright' and 'clinical'
sounding if not driven to 'clipping'.
Puwede naman talaga, depende lang sa designer. In fact, you can duplicate
vacuum tubes ensuring that your SS amp has similar non-linear properties
as vacuum tube/transformer. Model mo lang iyung transformer ng maayos
and make sure FET iyung switching device mo (voltage driven din kasi siya)
para halos parehas ng tubo. Ayun kuha na tube sound. hehehe ;D
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 20, 2006 at 10:26 PM
Question: What's the biggest reason why you want to go tubes?
Answer: Because Solid State amps tries so hard to duplicate Tube sound. :P
;D ;D ;D ;D
Joke lang ha, excuse sa mga ss amp users. ;D ;D ;D
Post by: ATJr. on Jan 21, 2006 at 08:03 AM
Quote
Solid State amps tries so hard to duplicate Tube sound
hardly! ss amps can be very transparent! transfer function is way too dissimilar since the ss amps do not employ output transformers.
anyway, tube sound is produced in the single ended common cathode circuit, so a simple tube line preamp can be hooked up to an ss amp and then you get a tube sound. ;D
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 21, 2006 at 08:58 AM
Oh well, the sky is blue and it's a beautiful day.
:-*
Post by: s2kov on Jan 21, 2006 at 01:34 PM
Post by: rascal101 on Jan 25, 2006 at 12:11 PM
Bakit iyung vacuum tube hindi magaya SS sound? ;D
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 25, 2006 at 03:34 PM
Baliktarin din natin ng kaunti pa ...
Bakit iyung vacuum tube hindi magaya SS sound? ;D
Kasi siya ang pilit ginagaya eh. :D :D :D
;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: rascal101 on Jan 25, 2006 at 03:48 PM
Kasi siya ang pilit ginagaya eh. :D :D :D
;D ;D ;D ;D
Baka raw siya mabasag sa tono ;D ;D ;D
Hindi niya ma-take ;D ;D ;D
Sir JojoD218,
Sensya na. Nakuhaan niyo na ba ng waveforms iyung SET using square
wave input. Ano kaya voltage overshoot niya? Mayroon ba siyang oscillation?
Ito yata dahilan kung bakit ang sound ay nagmumukhang natural. Iyung audio
signals kasi may natural oscillation. Tama ba?
Sensya na sa tanong ko kasi hindi pinapakita sa mga libro (na nabasa ko) iyung
mga actual waveforms na nakukuha sa amp.
Rascal101
Post by: ATJr. on Jan 25, 2006 at 04:34 PM
instead of debating with jojo, why don't you try to learn as much as you can about amps ;D
and may i suggest that you forget all that you know about SMPS, the thing that you know about them has very little to do with AUDIO. AMPS are about Linear ananlysis, smps, are non-linear, very little to do with each other! ;D
my 2 centavos... ::) :o ;D
Post by: rascal101 on Jan 25, 2006 at 05:22 PM
I am reading the books you got me to read and I am getting information that
you asked me to. I've already read the RCA tube manual. The point I am making
is on the transformer design and the inherent capacitance on the vacuum tube.
Since the audio signals are non-periodic pulsed waveforms there is no way to
damp the voltage overshoot except by improving leakage inductance and winding
capacitance (kaya siguro uso bifilar winding). Proper tube selection also comes to
mind - one will less capacitance.
Just wanted info what percentage you're getting as far as overshoot is concerned.
How much for a mean voltage of say 200V? Is 1% reasonable?
I am not getting to a debate with anyone here, just wanted the information for
a project I am working on.
I am getting there ... with the tubes ;D
Rascal101
Post by: ATJr. on Jan 25, 2006 at 08:31 PM
Quote
The point I am making is on the transformer design and the inherent capacitance on the vacuum tube.
Since the audio signals are non-periodic pulsed waveforms there is no way to damp the voltage overshoot except by improving leakage inductance and winding capacitance (kaya siguro uso bifilar winding). Proper tube selection also comes to mind - one will less capacitance.
try to understand what the tube plate characteristic curves mean and how to interpret them, also with tube ratings and what they mean. they are key to your succesfull analysis of tube circuits.
regarding transformers, design and analysis on them are based on sine waves, for lack of any other, and the logic here is that if they are good then, the transformer is good! every designers' goal is to have an output transformer with very high primary inductance,(good core +plus number of turns) low dc resistance, low leakage inductance, and low interwinding capacitance! you see these items are in contradiction with each other, so design really boils down to compromises, getting the most out of given materials and budget!
the irony here is that music is very different from sine waves! who listens to sine waves any way, they are boring!
i suggest that you read the materials over and over again, these takes time to digest, you are still young, you got plenty of time. ;D
Post by: AICRAG on Jan 25, 2006 at 10:09 PM
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 25, 2006 at 11:22 PM
No debate here ;D do try and listen to Tony, he has the years of experience, besides, ang dami na exclamation (!) marks ng post ni Tony. ;D ;D ;D
On a serious note, after all the years that you are about to devote in audio analysis, may I suggest that you try and learn to "listen" rather than just "quantify". Sometimes our measurements which seems correct may not sound good to our ears. Disclamers here.
Me and my 1.0 cents
Post by: rascal101 on Jan 26, 2006 at 02:15 AM
May project kasi akong ginagawa at pinagtutugma ko bench measurements sa listening. Nakagawa na rin ako ng marami raming samples since nagsimula kami last December. Listening test kami with some audio friends hopefully this Friday gamit rev 4. And hope to finalize design by end of January.
Humihingi lang naman po ng mga measurements kung meron man.
Salamat uli.
Rascal101
Post by: brandon on Jan 26, 2006 at 09:14 AM
Hhmmm..... baligtarin natin ng kaunti...
Question: What's the biggest reason why you want to go tubes?
Answer: Because Solid State amps tries so hard to duplicate Tube sound...
... but always end up better sounding than tubes. ;D
How else would you explain tube's dramatic demise in home 'hi-fi' systems?
...Because it isn't 'hi-fi' sounding? Oops! Sorry, no offense meant for tube lovers... ;D
Post by: john5479 on Jan 26, 2006 at 09:45 AM
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 26, 2006 at 11:25 AM
... but always end up better sounding than tubes. ;D
How else would you explain tube's dramatic demise in home 'hi-fi' systems?
...Because it isn't 'hi-fi' sounding? Oops! Sorry, no offense meant for tube lovers... ;D
That's true, so you better not listen to tubes since these things are not hi-fi sounding. ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: odyopayl on Jan 26, 2006 at 12:53 PM
(http://www.marklevinson.com/image_library/33HPR_lo.jpg)
(http://www.marklevinson.com/image_library/32ADSTK_lo.jpg)
Post by: rony on Jan 26, 2006 at 01:01 PM
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 26, 2006 at 01:15 PM
Jojo mahabang debate talaga ito, alang katapusan yan. ;D
Correct sir! ;D ;D ;D
Kaya dapat wala ng debate, session na lang tayo. ;D ;D ;D
Post by: john5479 on Jan 26, 2006 at 06:10 PM
Post by: vvt-i on Jan 26, 2006 at 09:12 PM
That's true, so you better not listen to tubes since these things are not hi-fi sounding. ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
jo,
sabi nga sa stereophile, SET in particular that the presentation sounded like music, not like hifi. ;D
Post by: s2kov on Jan 26, 2006 at 11:29 PM
Post by: john5479 on Jan 27, 2006 at 12:02 AM
Post by: levi on Jan 27, 2006 at 01:11 AM
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 27, 2006 at 08:57 AM
jo,
sabi nga sa stereophile, SET in particular that the presentation sounded like music, not like hifi. ;D
ah speaking of which... iba talaga ang ganyang SETup. ;D ;D ;D makikinig na lang ako.
Post by: rony on Jan 27, 2006 at 09:19 AM
kung SET yan, ibang usapan na yan! ;D
Stucky yan na naman SET na yan. :-[
naiiwan yun isang amp pag yan yun tumutunog. :)
Post by: John E. on Mar 25, 2009 at 07:18 AM
Post by: louiesia on Apr 23, 2009 at 08:47 PM
sa
audio
Post by: bass_nut on Mar 01, 2012 at 11:35 PM
hence, the more reason i will take good care of my tube amps 8)
Post by: qguy on Mar 02, 2012 at 07:26 AM
there was a recent significant surge on price tag on my preferred s/s amps :-((
hence, the more reason i will take good care of my tube amps 8)
very true.. if you look at the prices of SS Integrated amps today I am surprised they still sell, although there is some convenience with SS, not needing any replacement parts like tubes which is a plus for the owners.
I have been on both sides, I even switched from SS to tubes then back to tubes..what I noticed is that when I listen to SS, it demanded that I pull out my speakers for better imaging and I should be at the center of the soundstage, then I roll out my sound absorbers (area rug), put large pillows on the wall..etc etc.etc.. When I switched to tubes, I just turned on the system and listened to the music, most of the time I am not even dead center between the two speakers and I still enjoy the music.
Post by: kulapong on Jan 29, 2016 at 04:22 PM
- yung title biased kasi...kaya nagkagulo dito sa thread na to..... eh kung
What's the biggest reason why you won't go SS?
- malamang gulo din yan
eto na lang ang sa akin
pag nasa house ako...trip trip lang yan
- minsan gusto ko makinig sa CD/SACD/tape/TT using SS or Tube amp
- pag wala kang magawa dahil long weekend or holiday..try mo i switch yung mga setup na yan againts each other kasama na mga klase ng kable...pati cable ni Cal at iba pa...tingnan mo lang ubos oras mo... umaga na di ka pa tapos
- isama mo na placing ng speakers / me aircon o wala, bukas bintana o sarado, me carpet or wala (hirap mag tanggal ng carpet ah)
ang akin lang naman...maganda yan parehas.... medyo mag biased lang ako ng konti ah he he
- pag using iphone/android/nmt with remote, parang napapa next agad ako sa next songs..sa sobrang dami ng mp3/flac collections ko, parang gusto kong pakinggan lahat, pero di ko magawa..feeling ko tuloy bitin palagi
- pag nilalabas ko yung plaka sa lalagyan nya, at nilalagay ko sa TT at pinapakinggan...palaging me kakaibang excitement...kahit ilan beses ko na napakinggan yung mga plaka na yun..lalo na pag sa tube amp nakakabit
- minsan, bubuksan ko na tube amp ko para mag init..magkakape at yosi muna ko..tas me excitement na naman, di ko maipaliwanag mga bro...
- pag nag jo jogging ako, ok na ok sa akin ang iphone to listen to mp3's sabi kasi ng utak ko....Brod ok lang yan, maganda naman tunog eh..si apple naman me gawa nyan....pero kung gusto mo bitbitin mo yung turntable at tubeamp mo...kung hinahanap mo pa rin yung klase ng tunog..try mo lang kung kaya mo buhatin habang nag jo jogging..syempre sabi ko...cge Bro...oks na to
mas masarap magbigay ng komento kung naranasan mo parehas tas syempre.... respetuhan
And sa akin -
tube ako sa kwarto
SS ako sa living room
yun lang po.. Magandang Hapon!!
Post by: mykel18 on Jan 29, 2016 at 07:42 PM
Post by: tony on Jan 29, 2016 at 07:43 PM
imho, better to have both types and rotate them once in while....
the biggest reason not to go into tubes is one of cost....SS amps can be cheaper...
tube amps require the owner to have some basic maintenance skills...
and if you are going into tubes just so you can tube roll, then i will advise you do not...
if you buy tube amps on the basis of getting other tubes to roll, that will leave you frustrated
as many here sold their tube amps later...
if you buy tube amps, get them for the sound that you like, not for the tube rolling potential...
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 29, 2016 at 08:30 PM
Eventually the sawa factor will set-in and the ability to tube roll will satisfy the urge to listen to something new without disposing of the gear. If the tube AMP uses Boutique tubes, you might need to sell the Tube AMP when the sawa factor sets in.
Post by: cyberdraven on Jan 29, 2016 at 08:45 PM
I want to but I still need to learn a lot more. And I really hope to own one someday.
leben na ba pre?
Post by: mykel18 on Jan 29, 2016 at 08:47 PM
leben na ba pre?
Hinde
Post by: tony on Jan 29, 2016 at 08:49 PM
plugging in and unplugging tubes, loosens the sockets, corrosion sets in and gas tightness is compromised...
in the old days, tubes are replaced only when they have gone bad.....
you do not just mess with your tube amps when they are running fine....
when that inevitable sawa factor sets in, then you can sell your tube gears...
that is why i recommend to those that seek my advice to have a pp and set tube,
and solid state amps as well....rotating these amps will give you variety.....
ask Dana, he has a lot of various types of gears in the house, brimming to the seams....
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 29, 2016 at 09:38 PM
I want to but I still need to learn a lot more. And I really hope to own one someday.
Post by: mykel18 on Jan 29, 2016 at 09:41 PM
I was in the same predicament until someone lent me a tube amp and I was able to experience the tube sound. It certainly helps that there are more experienced members who share gears not to sell but for fellow music lovers to experience the tube sound. It is why I also offer to lend my gears to those interested to experience the tube sound.
I actually like how it sounds. Was able to hear LM, Cayin, AMX, Tony's, Leben and some more. I just feel like I need to know more especially about the tubes. What are good and what are not. More on the technical side. Same way I did before buying my first turntable.
Post by: sientobente on Jan 29, 2016 at 10:34 PM
Post by: Nelson de Leon on Jan 29, 2016 at 11:30 PM
Having owned a KT88 integrated amp, it sounds perfect on my bookshelves. The deal breaker was the power consumption. Compared to my SS integrated amp, the tube amp consumes 7x the electricity - 350w vs 50w. Not practical for regular use(local tv shows, tv series, movies).
Ganyan naman madalas sinasabi natin pero maski malakas sa electricity, kapag gusto natin, end of story na. Hehe!
Post by: sientobente on Jan 29, 2016 at 11:33 PM
Ganyan naman madalas sinasabi natin pero maski malakas sa electricity, kapag gusto natin, end of story na. Hehe!Nakakahinayang kasi Konsi. Ginagamit pa ng maid namin yung tube amp pra panoorin si Kris Aquino sa umaga. Hehe!
Post by: Nelson de Leon on Jan 29, 2016 at 11:41 PM
Nakakahinayang kasi Konsi. Ginagamit pa ng maid namin yung tube amp pra panoorin si Kris Aquino sa umaga. Hehe!
Naku ha. Usapan natin sikreto lang yan sa maid mo pero ni-broadcast mo na dito sa Pdvd.
Post by: sientobente on Jan 29, 2016 at 11:49 PM
Naku ha. Usapan natin sikreto lang yan sa maid mo pero ni-broadcast mo na dito sa Pdvd.LOL. Wala tayong kinalaman diyan Konsi! Haha!
Post by: Courage on Jan 29, 2016 at 11:52 PM
Naku ha. Usapan natin sikreto lang yan sa maid mo pero ni-broadcast mo na dito sa Pdvd.
Wahahahahaha
Post by: tony on Jan 30, 2016 at 08:27 AM
Having owned a KT88 integrated amp, it sounds perfect on my bookshelves. The deal breaker was the power consumption. Compared to my SS integrated amp, the tube amp consumes 7x the electricity - 350w vs 50w. Not practical for regular use(local tv shows, tv series, movies).
so very true......the dynaco ST70 has around 120 watts, the 211 pp amp done by AMX had a power consumption of 650 watts, so this is also one factor to consider...
SS amps. even the high end ones, will never approach tubes in power consumption at idle....;)
also with tube amps, the output tubes being lamps, has a shorter lifespan than most SS amps...
Post by: tony on Jan 30, 2016 at 08:32 AM
I actually like how it sounds. Was able to hear LM, Cayin, AMX, Tony's, Leben and some more. I just feel like I need to know more especially about the tubes. What are good and what are not. More on the technical side. Same way I did before buying my first turntable.
the 12EN6 pp amp that i loaned out to cyberdraven, is now adopted by monks in a monastery somewhere in pampanga....it was an experiment about using tv tubes in a power amp....;)
Post by: Courage on Jan 30, 2016 at 11:51 AM
1. Electric bill
2. Maintenance
3. Heat
4. Since i dont know anything about tubes, i dont know kung ok sya sa LAHAT ng type ng music
Post by: tony on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:00 PM
I like to own one someday... but afraid of the ff
1. Electric bill
2. Maintenance
3. Heat
4. Since i dont know anything about tubes, i dont know kung ok sya sa LAHAT ng type ng music
then don't go into tubes, best advise i can give you....
as far as #4 depende sa speakers mo....the speaker/amplifier combo matters a lot....
Post by: Superman on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:03 PM
1) Audio Note OTO SE Signature
2) Leben CS300
3) Almarro 318A/318B
4) Line Magnetic 219ia
Coincidentally, they're all tube amplifiers bro! :)
Post by: Courage on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:11 PM
Jason, REMEMBER...the BEST amps paired with your speakers are:
1) Audio Note OTO SE Signature
2) Leben CS300
3) Almarro 318A/318B
4) Line Magnetic 219ia
Coincidentally, they're all tube amplifiers bro! :)
Kaya nga di ako nag audition ng mga yan paired with my speakers coz i dont want to face my fears he he he
Post by: Courage on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:12 PM
then don't go into tubes, best advise i can give you....
as far as #4 depende sa speakers mo....the speaker/amplifier combo matters a lot....
Thats why my AMP is still SS, kahit pa kaliwat kanan ang pang kukulam ng mga members dito na Tube amp ang best for my speakers he he he
Post by: tony on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:19 PM
Thats why my AMP is still SS, kahit pa kaliwat kanan ang pang kukulam ng mga members dito na Tube amp ang best for my speakers he he he
don't listen to them.....:D
what is best for your speakers is what makes you happy.... ;)
unless you want to start a new career in buying and selling tubes and tube amps..... >:D
Post by: junji on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:41 PM
Post by: tony on Jan 30, 2016 at 12:45 PM
Thanks Sir Tony sa mga advice mo, dami ko napupulot.
i am trying to save you guys a lot of money....:D
Post by: Courage on Jan 30, 2016 at 01:29 PM
don't listen to them.....:D
what is best for your speakers is what makes you happy.... ;)
unless you want to start a new career in buying and selling tubes and tube amps..... >:D
I agree with you sir tony...
Post by: tony on Jan 30, 2016 at 01:41 PM
I agree with you sir tony...
ask those mangkukulam kung ano ang mga naging amps nya, gaano nagtagal sa kanya, at bakit
ibinenta....:D
but don't get me wrong, i am a tube head/fanatic,
but i have my own reasons why i like tubes better than SS....
and those who do not know what i know will never understand....;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 30, 2016 at 07:54 PM
On No.3 Heat is not too much of an issue.
On No.4 I think it is more dependent on speaker then AMP.
I like to own one someday... but afraid of the ff
1. Electric bill
2. Maintenance
3. Heat
4. Since i dont know anything about tubes, i dont know kung ok sya sa LAHAT ng type ng music
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 30, 2016 at 09:20 PM
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 30, 2016 at 09:26 PM
I like to own one someday... but afraid of the ff
1. Electric bill
2. Maintenance
3. Heat
4. Since i dont know anything about tubes, i dont know kung ok sya sa LAHAT ng type ng music
Kung nasa Family Feud tayo yan ang top 4 answers. ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, and IME, these has been among the top questions (and worries) I usually get from those who want to delve in tubes.
Post by: Superman on Jan 30, 2016 at 10:17 PM
Anyway, to each his own...just commenting based on speakers that I own and tube amps that I have personally tried w/ my speakers...
Post by: romeoalltheway on Jan 30, 2016 at 10:33 PM
Post by: nelcarol1994 on Jan 30, 2016 at 11:43 PM
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:15 AM
Agree with 1 to 2. Nevertheless, addicted to the holographic tube sound and must suffer the consequence ;)
On No.2 Heat is not too much of an issue.
On No.4 I think it is more dependent on speaker then AMP.
some newcomers can't take the heat and that is one of their concerns....
they complain that transformers are hot....
some complain that filaments light up like lamp bulbs at first...
power consumption is truly higher than SS and nothing to do with your speakers...
once you flick the switch on and the cathodes get hot and plates draw current,
power consumption is up, that is the nature of the beast...
and the power consumption stays whether playing music on your speakers or not...
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:19 AM
But usually are misconceptions...
Anyway, to each his own...just commenting based on speakers that I own and tube amps that I have personally tried w/ my speakers...
true, misconceptions are everywhere......
how convenient and easy for a lot of people to learn the wrong things......if only they knew....
but still, when you have plenty of moolah to burn, you can get away with anything....
you can buy all you want to your heart's content, after all this hobby is about enjoyment...
as long as you are happy, then that is it.... 8)
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:23 AM
I would love to have a tube amp. SO and the glow are candies to the senses. But I cannot afford to enjoy one because my work brings me to the most hopeless places. I mean I work where there are humanitarian disasters , be it a war zone, earthquake epicenter or typhoon stricken area, thus my gears have to be dense and portable. Digital is the only way to go. There it is: my own unique reason for not having those tubes.
good man yourself.....:D
i have a friend, an OFW engineer working in an Oil and Gas project in papua new guinea,
he is pestering me to make him a tube amp, but i had to politely turn him down,
how can he when he is home only maybe one month in a year....
Post by: geriboy on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:28 AM
biglang nabuhay ang thread na ito... ;D
Nabuhay ka uli sir Jojo! :D
Post by: Superman on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:34 AM
biglang nabuhay ang thread na ito... ;D
Oo nga bro...just hoping this will not scare the hell out of people who would want to dive into tubes...sometimes not all we read are true and applicable...tons of misconceptions. One must learn to filter what he reads...
Best is to share based on actual experience and to compare also via actual experience...Welcome back! :)
Post by: baliw on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:39 AM
At least he has a month to enjoy, a good break from 11 months of oil and gas :)
good man yourself.....:D
i have a friend, an OFW engineer working in an Oil and Gas project in papua new guinea,
he is pestering me to make him a tube amp, but i had to politely turn him down,
how can he when he is home only maybe one month in a year....
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:55 AM
At least he has a month to enjoy, a good break from 11 months of oil and gas :)
that is also true......
my experience as an OFW, gusto ko laboy ng laboy, kain sa labas, at pasyal dito pasyal doon...
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 08:57 AM
Quote
just hoping this will not scare the hell out of people who would want to dive into tubes...
only those committed enough should go into tubes, hindi yung naulukan lang... >:D
and only after having auditioned and actually liked it... 8)
those who are happy with their SS amps should be left alone.... >:D
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 31, 2016 at 09:08 AM
Tube Pre-amp + Solidstate Power-Amp, even a T-Amp.
some newcomers can't take the heat and that is one of their concerns....
they complain that transformers are hot....
some complain that filaments light up like lamp bulbs at first...
power consumption is truly higher than SS and nothing to do with your speakers...
once you flick the switch on and the cathodes get hot and plates draw current,
power consumption is up, that is the nature of the beast...
and the power consumption stays whether playing music on your speakers or not...
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 09:12 AM
Post by: Superman on Jan 31, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Post by: dudong on Jan 31, 2016 at 10:22 AM
Oo nga bro...just hoping this will not scare the hell out of people who would want to dive into tubes...sometimes not all we read are true and applicable...tons of misconceptions. One must learn to filter what he reads...
Best is to share based on actual experience and to compare also via actual experience...Welcome back! :)
Jen with so much acronyms going around no wonder its a scary process... PP, PPP, SET, DHT and so on.
Then there are the options; Modern (currently manufactured) Amps, Vintage Amps and DIY Amps.
When you have finally decided what to buy, you hear/read about NOS tubes and how they are so much better than current production tubes. Then names like Mullard, Amperex Bugle Boys and Telefunken will tickle your curiosity... add to that the terms xf1, fat base, smooth plates, long plates and a whole lot more!
But in the end you will never regret it! When you turn it on, electricity/heat will be the last of your concerns. As for maintenance, I am sure when the time comes, you will have an extra tube amp because you will not be satisfied with just one amp.
In my case, I've been collecting vintage amps for years.
Post by: Superman on Jan 31, 2016 at 10:25 AM
Jen with so much acronyms going around no wonder its a scary process... PP, PPP, SET, DHT and so on.
Then there are the options; Modern (currently manufactured) Amps, Vintage Amps and DIY Amps.
When you have finally decided what to buy, you hear/read about NOS tubes and how they are so much better than current production tubes. Then names like Mullard, Amperex Bugle Boys and Telefunken will tickle your curiosity... add to that the terms xf1, fat base, smooth plates, long plates and a whole lot more!
But in the end you will never regret it! When you turn it on, electricity/heat will be the last of your concerns. As for maintenance, I am sure when the time comes, you will have an extra tube amp because you will not be satisfied with just one amp.
In my case, I've been collecting vintage amps for years.
Hi DJ! Oh yes...as long as we choose what to believe and hear...so we learn the right way...
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:20 AM
It is not the technicality of the sound, it is the actual experience and enjoyment.
Hi DJ! Oh yes...as long as we choose what to believe and hear...so we learn the right way...
Post by: tony on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:24 AM
i merely gave some technical details as to why....
at the end of the day, it is all about your enjoyment of music, nothing more, nothing less...
this is an actual experience:
Sir tony, mykel and i had a mini-shootout yesterday in my house. My system is quite cheap but still reveals the differences on the amps. We used 3 amps - a leben 300x (el84 pushpull 15 watts advertized with NOS mullard output tubes, but uses sovtek in the test, and GE 5751 preamp priced at 155k), a heavily modified amx (6 watter SEP priced for 16.5k) and your push pull amp.
The amx is the worse. Hands down. Walang "balls" at muddy lows tapos rolled-off highs. Hindi kaya ung speakers. Hehe.
Between the leben and tecson amp, we both agree that your amp is sonically better..., by a MILE! The leben has a typical tube sound- lutang na lutang midrange but lacks details on highs and lows and namimili ng genre. Very mellow, warm and ramdam mong "mabagal" tumunog.
On the otherhand, your amp has the PRAT and fast-attack we normally hear on high-end amps. Mykel, who has a full Naim set which is very very good sounding, is impressed on how detailed and fast your amp is. Kung merong advantage ung leben, it would be the aeathetics and looks.
The leben is loaned for a home audition of Mykel. After the shootout, we packed it to be returned today. Hehehe.
Told him your selling the amp for 18k and ill get it by 2nd week september when the buyer of my amp pays. That is if its still available. Hehehe.
Thanks for the amp sir. I will return it this week and hope maaabutan ko pa.
Paeng
Post by: bosyo on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:26 AM
kaya lang mas gusto ni misis ang SQ ngg tubo, mas natural daw.
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:36 AM
Nabuhay ka uli sir Jojo! :D
Doc! Hahaha! ;D
Napasyal lang po, officially I am still in hiatus. :)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:49 AM
Doc! Hahaha! ;D
Napasyal lang po, officially I am still in hiatus. :)
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:54 AM
Oo nga bro...just hoping this will not scare the hell out of people who would want to dive into tubes...sometimes not all we read are true and applicable...tons of misconceptions. One must learn to filter what he reads...
Fear is a powerful weapon bro. But once the dust settles, everything should be clear. I wish those people who want to try tubes a happy experience...
Quote
Best is to share based on actual experience and to compare also via actual experience...Welcome back! :)
This reminds me... I recently acquired an entry-level DAP for digital source duties, good thing I asked advise from some head-fi friends to point me in the right direction. Incidentally, those who I asked have the actual experience making my choice a truly viable decision.
Oh I'm not back yet, though I reckon it would be unlimited playtime once I finish this one. ;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:55 AM
Post by: Superman on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:58 AM
+1,000
It is not the technicality of the sound, it is the actual experience and enjoyment.
Thanks Jo! :)
Do take note that I have mentioned some brands and models not to push the brand nor push a particular model. I also do not intend to compare which is better than the other...just happily aharing my experience. And for the record this should be discourage anyone to go (or not to go) tubes...happily sharing my experienxe with tubes for a particular speaker model/brand indicated in this thread.
Have used Leben CS300 and CS600 hooked up w/ the Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE which I own and the matching is heavenly...I am quite sure matching of amps w/ similar topology and tubes (like Dynaco, Eico, AN, etc.) would also pair well...I have also used AN, Unison and Line Magnetic and they're all excellent wS the Ref3A with different sonic characters.
At the end of the day, most especially for newbies, learn to choose what to learn in this enjoyable hobby. Your choice of equipment, your choice of "sound" is YOU, it is what defines you...not any marketing fuzz of pushing certain products, brands or even sellers...
Good luck and all the best to your PDVD newbies. Lots of members here who can properly guide you as you venture into this fun hobby, be it tubes or ss, bookshelves or floorstander, with or without subs, NOS or new production tubes, etc.
JojoD, bro tama na yang hiatus bro. :)
Logging out now...will but popcorn at the mall...
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 31, 2016 at 11:59 AM
The real estate mogul is in the back ^-^
Sshhhh... just putting things in order so I can have unlimited playtime with my projects tukayo. ;D
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 31, 2016 at 12:06 PM
^ tukayo lumakas ang hangin.
;D ;D ;D
Always a good thing to build with strong foundations... ;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jan 31, 2016 at 12:18 PM
Post by: JojoD818 on Jan 31, 2016 at 12:38 PM
JojoD, bro tama na yang hiatus bro. :)
Logging out now...will but popcorn at the mall...
Saglit lang ito, I'll be back in a jiffy. :)
^ did not see that strong hot air coming our way. Woooosh!
Must be early summer this year tukayo... ;D
People need not worry about using tubes during hot summer days, the tubes are built to take the heat, it is usually the other components that can't.
Post by: romeoalltheway on Jan 31, 2016 at 07:59 PM
Haha you spared him the trouble
good man yourself.....:D
i have a friend, an OFW engineer working in an Oil and Gas project in papua new guinea,
he is pestering me to make him a tube amp, but i had to politely turn him down,
how can he when he is home only maybe one month in a year....
Post by: dudong on Feb 01, 2016 at 01:28 PM
I like to own one someday... but afraid of the ff
1. Electric bill
2. Maintenance
3. Heat
4. Since i dont know anything about tubes, i dont know kung ok sya sa LAHAT ng type ng music
Going back to the topic...
Did you get the answer you were looking for Courage?
Bring your speakers to my place and decide for yourself. I have a Scott 222B currently hooked up. Let me know.
Post by: tony on Feb 01, 2016 at 03:41 PM
Thats why my AMP is still SS, kahit pa kaliwat kanan ang pang kukulam ng mga members dito na Tube amp ang best for my speakers he he he
Post by: tony on Feb 01, 2016 at 03:43 PM
Haha you spared him the trouble
glad you liked the rsh humor.....:D
walang pilitan kung ayaw.....kung gusto ng tubes magkukusa yan....;)
Post by: Courage on Feb 02, 2016 at 09:20 AM
Going back to the topic...
Did you get the answer you were looking for Courage?
Bring your speakers to my place and decide for yourself. I have a Scott 222B currently hooked up. Let me know.
Thanks for the offer bro.... But to be honest, i'm not looking for anything or any changes right now.. I do like to experience tube but the urge is not strong enough for me to go out there and audition. I'm happy with my setup right now.
I posted here simply because of the topic and what i felt regarding tubes. I did have the opportunity before of owning a tube, but i ended up with SS because of my fears of owning one he he he.. Di naman ako nag sisi kasi naging sobrang saya ko naman sa setup ko ngayon..
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 02, 2016 at 11:27 AM
well the title of this thread is about why one will not go into tubes,
i merely gave some technical details as to why....
at the end of the day, it is all about your enjoyment of music, nothing more, nothing less...
this is an actual experience:
I for one am rather new to tubes but I became hopelessly hooked ever since I came across Master Tony's tube amps (I am the proud owner of two of them - 2A3 and 5894). Having been initiated into audio by Jen (Superman) and mentored by no less than Sir Tony himself, I became more discerning as a listener of music and more appreciative of the subtle nuances of each piece of music I encounter. No regrets whatsoever being a tube groupie! :)
Post by: dudong on Feb 02, 2016 at 11:33 AM
That's why we have this forum, and that's why there are people willing to share their experiences and give advice.
If one member is scared of taking the plunge or have reservations going to tubes, then by all means we help them and guide them.
We are not here to instill FEAR! There are a lot of new members here, and your remarks are one sided. Its ironic because you are a vacuum tube amp builder yourself.
Kung sinasabi mong wag magbuyo, mangasar, mangkulam then by all means wag ka rin MANAKOT!
This hobby is expensive as it is, pwede ka naman makinig sa AM radio kung gusto mo. But since we are in a specialized forum, it means gusto mo ng magandang tunog, and that means better therefore pricier stuff as it comes with the territory.
People will buy and sell stuff, you lose money along the way as you go on with your pursuit of perfection/satisfaction/happiness. All consumer products will depreciate and you will lose money when you decide to sell. Isa lang naman ang consumer item na nagaappreciate ang value... Birkin.
Pasensya na sa rant... just my 7cents, from my wife's 7 you know what!
Post by: Superman on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:02 PM
I for one am rather new to tubes but I became hopelessly hooked ever since I came across Master Tony's tube amps (I am the proud owner of two of them - 2A3 and 5894). Having been initiated into audio by Jen (Superman) and mentored by no less than Sir Tony himself, I became more discerning as a listener of music and more appreciative of the subtle nuances of each piece of music I encounter. No regrets whatsoever being a tube groupie! :)
Hey buddy!
Thank you! I am sure you're very happy and enjoying your audio rig! Hope to visit you soon bro! All the best! :D
Post by: Superman on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:06 PM
That's why we have this forum, and that's why there are people willing to share their experiences and give advice.
If one member is scared of taking the plunge or have reservations going to tubes, then by all means we help them and not guide them.
We are no here to instill FEAR! There are a lot of new members here, and your remarks are one sided. Its ironic because you are a vacuum tube amp builder yourself.
Kung sinasabi mong wag magbuyo, mangasar, mangkulam then by all means wag ka rin MANAKOT!
This hobby is expensive as it is, pwede ka naman makinig sa AM radio kung gusto mo. But since we are in a specialized forum, it means gusto mo ng magandang tunog, and that means better therefore pricier stuff as it comes with the territory.
People will buy and sell stuff, you lose money along the way as you go on with your pursuit of perfection/satisfaction/happiness. All consumer products will depreciate and you will lose money when you decide to sell. Isa lang naman ang consumer item na nagaappreciate ang value... Birkin.
Pasensya na sa rant... just my 7cents, from my wife's 7 you know what!
Bro...I can understand your sentiments...
Same goes for any other hobby (like bikes, cars, etc.), when you go the route of "perfection" (which is subjective), you gain some, you lose some...most of the time, you sell at a lower cost to "justify" the cost of the new...BUT I do like to start with the hobby the right way...
Naisip ko tuloy kung ang pangkukulam ay nakaka-encourage or otherwise? Hehehe!
See you soon bro! :D
Post by: tony on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:12 PM
That's why we have this forum, and that's why there are people willing to share their experiences and give advice.
If one member is scared of taking the plunge or have reservations going to tubes, then by all means we help them and not guide them.
We are no here to instill FEAR! There are a lot of new members here, and your remarks are one sided. Its ironic because you are a vacuum tube amp builder yourself.
Kung sinasabi mong wag magbuyo, mangasar, mangkulam then by all means wag ka rin MANAKOT!
This hobby is expensive as it is, pwede ka naman makinig sa AM radio kung gusto mo. But since we are in a specialized forum, it means gusto mo ng magandang tunog, and that means better therefore pricier stuff as it comes with the territory.
People will buy and sell stuff, you lose money along the way as you go on with your pursuit of perfection/satisfaction/happiness. All consumer products will depreciate and you will lose money when you decide to sell. Isa lang naman ang consumer item na nagaappreciate ang value... Birkin.
Pasensya na sa rant... just my 7cents, from my wife's 7 you know what!
i am merely laying out the technical aspects,
nobody came out to say my posts are wrong technically....
what i am merely saying is that an informed decision is better
than just makigaya not knowing what the pros and cons are....
a lot of people call me on the phone, visit me at the house to have chat....
and many of them are happy they did.....
i have been like this since day 1....
i say my piece, you can take it or leave it, the final decision is still up to you....
after all it is your money....
i post so that the others that think like me are constantly reassured that
they are not alone.....
now if you say nananakot ako, then we can discuss, anong post ko ang natakot ka?
kung meron mang dto na natakot sa post ko, please raise your right hand.....
Post by: tony on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:18 PM
I for one am rather new to tubes but I became hopelessly hooked ever since I came across Master Tony's tube amps (I am the proud owner of two of them - 2A3 and 5894). Having been initiated into audio by Jen (Superman) and mentored by no less than Sir Tony himself, I became more discerning as a listener of music and more appreciative of the subtle nuances of each piece of music I encounter. No regrets whatsoever being a tube groupie! :)
thanks Teta, you know me, i would not like to post reviews as they are very personal in nature,
but sometimes it can not be helped...
Post by: dudong on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:19 PM
don't listen to them.....:D
what is best for your speakers is what makes you happy.... ;)
unless you want to start a new career in buying and selling tubes and tube amps..... >:D
i am trying to save you guys a lot of money....:D
If you think these statements are not meant to scare them or discourage them, then we can just agree to disagree.
Post by: Courage on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:20 PM
Yung fear ko of owning a Tube is simply because wala akong alam sa tube. Para akong si Jon Snow... I KNOW NOTHING he he he
Post by: tony on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:23 PM
So far, wala naman ako nakita dito sa thread nato na nanakot.. he he he
Yung fear ko of owning a Tube is simply because wala akong alam sa tube. Para akong si Jon Snow... I KNOW NOTHING he he he
well we can start with this...nos tube and used tubes...see if you can spot the difference...
the issue of nos and used tubes is one that gets newbies, i get complaints from those na naloko...
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12650846_945912082159484_3008975550507740962_n.jpg?oh=a9117eb6d045ce46a999203257a6a31f&oe=57447360)
Post by: dudong on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:26 PM
So far, wala naman ako nakita dito sa thread nato na nanakot.. he he he
Yung fear ko of owning a Tube is simply because wala akong alam sa tube. Para akong si Jon Snow... I KNOW NOTHING he he he
Not specifically directed at you Courage, you're not the only one who reads this thread.
Post by: tony on Feb 02, 2016 at 12:30 PM
If you think these statements are not meant to scare them or discourage them, then we can just agree to disagree.
if only people try to understand the meaning of what i post and not get emotional,
they will see that i am doing them a favor, i do not make money posting here,
i do post to share my knowledge because to me it is my way of giving back,
life has been very good to me...
i do not sell amps as "bread and butter thing", i do not need a job anymore,
working as an OFW, i have some saved just enough for my needs....
people come to me...i have turned many of them away if i see that
i would just be wasting their time.....
the one thing that i have learned here, is that i can say NO.....
you maybe surprised to learn who the personalities call on me for advise...;)
@dudong, i know that you are a very good techie as i have seen your work,
i have no problem with techies, yes, even those who stab me in the back, >:D
we speak more less the same language so we can understand.... ;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 02, 2016 at 01:00 PM
well we can start with this...nos tube and used tubes...see if you can spot the difference...
the issue of nos and used tubes is one that gets newbies, i get complaints from those na naloko...
^ you once posted once a tube is taken out of the box it is no longer NOS.
With that logic, neither is NOS. wooosh!
once you open the cellophane wrapper and look into the box contents,
then this is no longer NOS, it then becomes NIB or new in box....;)
Posts like this may scare off someone who wants to get into tubes, because they will be too conscious if the tube is NIB, NOS, USED, etc... The reality is NIB, NOS, USED, is secondary to the sound quality it will provide. It does not follow that because a 6922 tube is NIB it will sound better than a used 6922 tube.
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 02, 2016 at 07:44 PM
Hey buddy!
Thank you! I am sure you're very happy and enjoying your audio rig! Hope to visit you soon bro! All the best! :D
Anytime, Pare! :) By the way, you're so blessed to have such a beautiful baby.
Post by: dudong on Feb 02, 2016 at 09:50 PM
^ you once posted once a tube is taken out of the box it is no longer NOS.
With that logic, neither is NOS. wooosh!
Posts like this may scare off someone who wants to get into tubes, because they will be too conscious if the tube is NIB, NOS, USED, etc... The reality is NIB, NOS, USED, is secondary to the sound quality is will provide. It does not follow that because a 6922 tube is NIB it will sound better than a used 6922 tube.
And in most cases, Brand is better than new (Russian/Chinese).
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 07:13 AM
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 07:41 AM
And in most cases, Brand is better than new (Russian/Chinese).
and statements like this, prevents would be users of tube amps to enjoy their purchase
right out of the box....
no wonder, i got a phone call from a guy wanting to buy an ASL 6l6 monoblocks
asking me what modifications can be done to the amp...and he has not even listened to it....
Post by: dudong on Feb 03, 2016 at 08:38 AM
and statements like this, prevents would be users of tube amps to enjoy their purchase
right out of the box....
no wonder, i got a phone call from a guy wanting to buy an ASL 6l6 monoblocks
asking me what modifications can be done to the amp...and he has not even listened to it....
I dont want to pick a fight with you sir tony but I cant figure you out.
First, you diverted the topic to nos tube and used tubes.
Now your inserting 'modifications' on a nos/used/russian/chinese tube comment of mine and cooltoyz.
To tube roll or to replace the original tubes that came with your new amp is reversible. It is not a modification.
All the more you are making it confusing for members who want to try vacuum tubes.
And what does me being a 'techie' have to do with all of these. You can have a tube amp and enjoy it even if you dont know the difference between a soldering iron and a soldering lead. Just ask around, in my case I would recommend Rene Rivo if someone needs assistance.
If anyone wants to venture to flea powered amps, check the SETUP/Harana guys!
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 03, 2016 at 08:51 AM
Sir John is a music lover and not a lover of equipment or technical specifications.
The only con is John is a very busy person and you need to adjust your schedule to match his availability.
He is busy but find time for the love of music and not to sell gears.
Sir John also has a full range of speakers from vintage full range, small bookshelf, to multi drivers and gladly connect these speaker to your existing owned gear. It is a truly learning experience.
Like someone stated... I wish we can hear technical specification but the reality is we hear sound.
Post by: Superman on Feb 03, 2016 at 09:23 AM
These are the highly-reliable and competent tube amplifier makers in the Philippines...Easy to deal with especially for newbies...excellent craftsmanship and will provide the best service!
This is based on my actual (previous and current) experience with them. Good thing as well is that they would make recommendations based on the speakers/equipment you have and the music you prefer. And they also would eventually encourage tube rolling as each tube would have different sonic characters (to the user's preference) regardless of how they physically look. Boss Rene and Sir John has been my sources for tubes -- and they also use tubes which are readily available, easy for tube rolling and tubes which are usually used for audio application.
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 03, 2016 at 10:23 AM
The really great thing about this hobby is that different tube flavors cater to everyone's tastes. There's always a perfect match for everyone - and even then, there's always that never-ending itch to try something new even when you've attained your personal nirvana of sound perfection. That's the nature of the beast.
In my case and while I'm perfectly satisfied with the tube equipment I got from Sir Tony, I do a bit of tube rolling as well. For this purpose, I don't have to sell an arm or a leg just to get my tube fix since I'm always on the lookout for good tube bargains on Ebay. I do agree that good sound can come from the established but rather pricey brands like Mullard. Good quality begets good brands. However and as Sir Tony had explained (which was supported by my readings on this point), the distinction between brands may blur when the established tube companies would oftentimes swap and borrow tube stocks from each other just to fill a client's order. In the case of RFT which is a not-as-well-known East German tube manufacturer, it regularly serves as OEM for established names like Telefunken, Siemens, Philips, Sylvania, etc. With RFT tubes which you can still get on the cheap from sellers from Slovakia, Bulgaria, etc., you get true German-engineered tubes that are identical to those branded under the more established names.
During one of Sir Tony's interesting forays abroad (he also worked for top chipmaker AMD), he also got to work in Russia where he got a chance to work up close and personal with Russian tubes. He would dissect these tubes to check out their innards and would then design customized tube amps and preamps which took best advantage of each tube's unique characteristics. When I asked him about the rather negative perception of Russian tubes, he replied that the Russians would make sure that they made the best handcrafted tubes they could make since they were always under threat of being arrested and thrown into the gulag if they produced substandard tubes.
When I asked Sir Tony what tubes would be "best" for a tube amp, he would always say that it would depend on the tube's implementation. In other words, I gathered that he could design and implement a circuit that would make any decent audio-grade tube (even Russian and Chinese) shine. In a way, I would describe Sir Tony as a music enthusiast who is tube agnostic.
The best lesson I got from Sir Tony and other DIYers is that I don't have to spend lots of moolah just to enjoy something as pleasurable as tube audio.
;D
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 10:31 AM
Quote
I dont want to pick a fight with you sir tony but I cant figure you out.
sure you can't figure me out, because you have made up your mind,
and i am not the one to educate you...besides you do not know what i know....
you can just add me to your ignore list, and be done with it...
just as i have put some in my ignore list, it is that simple really,
but there are those who does, and my post is for them, not for the likes of you...
if you can not understand what i post, then that is not my problem...
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 10:39 AM
i am fully aware and understand that you can not please everyone,
i never tried, to do that is a waste of time.....i am just being honest with my opinions....
i never look at people coming to me as an opportunity to make money....
just last night a FB friend came all the way from Cebu to see me, i helped the guy
build his first EL84pp amp and he tell me he is hooked on to tubes, another tubero n his late 20's...
i tried to discourage him at first, but his persistence paid off n the end....
you see it is never about the money.....
perhaps the best advise you can gve me is to call my attention when i post something that can be construed as libelous.... ;)
I'm extremely happy with the tube amps and tube preamp I got from Sir Tony. :)
The really great thing about this hobby is that different tube flavors cater to everyone's tastes. There's always a perfect match for everyone - and even then, there's always that never-ending itch to try something new even when you've attained your personal nirvana of sound perfection. That's the nature of the beast.
In my case and while I'm perfectly satisfied with the tube equipment I got from Sir Tony, I do a bit of tube rolling as well. For this purpose, I don't have to sell an arm or a leg just to get my tube fix since I'm always on the lookout for good tube bargains on Ebay. I do agree that good sound can come from the established but rather pricey brands like Mullard. Good quality begets good brands. However and as Sir Tony had explained (which was supported by my readings on this point), the distinction between brands may blur when the established tube companies would oftentimes swap and borrow tube stocks from each other just to fill a client's order. In the case of RFT which is a not-as-well-known East German tube manufacturer, it regularly serves as OEM for established names like Telefunken, Siemens, Philips, Sylvania, etc. With RFT tubes which you can still get on the cheap from sellers from Slovakia, Bulgaria, etc., you get true German-engineered tubes that are identical to those branded under the more established names.
During one of Sir Tony's interesting forays abroad (he also worked for top chipmaker AMD), he also got to work in Russia where he got a chance to work up close and personal with Russian tubes. He would dissect these tubes to check out their innards and would then design customized tube amps and preamps which took best advantage of each tube's unique characteristics. When I asked him about the rather negative perception of Russian tubes, he replied that the Russians would make sure that they made the best handcrafted tubes they could make since they were always under threat of being arrested and thrown into the gulag if they produced substandard tubes.
When I asked Sir Tony what tubes would be "best" for a tube amp, he would always say that it would depend on the tube's implementation. In other words, I gathered that he could design and implement a circuit that would make any decent audio-grade tube (even Russian and Chinese) shine. In a way, I would describe Sir Tony as a music enthusiast who is tube agnostic.
The best lesson I got from Sir Tony and other DIYers is that I don't have to spend lots of moolah just to enjoy something as pleasurable as tube audio.
;D
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 03, 2016 at 10:39 AM
Rene Rivo, John Poscablo, Jojo Dijamco, Andrew Sevilla, Rod Teope
These are the highly-reliable and competent tube amplifier makers in the Philippines...Easy to deal with especially for newbies...excellent craftsmanship and will provide the best service!
Post by: Superman on Feb 03, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Agree with you Jen. Newbies may find different paths but eventually end up with the experts in your list. Upon hearing their gears the difference becomes very apparent.
Thanks Jo! You're in good hands with these highly-capable, competent, humble and known tube amp makers...you get more than your money's worth...best service at that!
Post by: Narayan on Feb 03, 2016 at 10:57 AM
The best lesson I got from Sir Tony and other DIYers is that I don't have to spend lots of moolah just to enjoy something as pleasurable as tube audio.
;D
Very well said, Teta ;)
Post by: dana on Feb 03, 2016 at 11:03 AM
Rene Rivo- meet n greet. some converstations during hi fi shows.
John Poscablo- bought some tubes from him. medyo moody.hirap basahin. learned later, wife has some health issues yta.maybe has something to do.can understand.
Mang Rod Teope- used to lurk around his house in Conchu, watched him work with his tube amps, wind his traffos. even suggested/was credited the name MUSIKA for his pre amp, to pit against the TONO pre amp then.
Edrel-my neighbor here in EPZA. your friendly parts supplier. have his 7193 horny preamp.
Andrew Sevilla- even have his KT88PP int. amp.
Tonyt- don't have a creation from him yet. he is just a pm away if you have some questions need some technical guidance. The most active & generous among to share his time, technical knowhow, guidance & thoughts.imo, with his contributions, the community is very much blessed to have him around.
:) ot...
I try to enjoy both worlds: ss & v. tube...because its there and still available.
besides, life is short.
Post by: remington on Feb 03, 2016 at 11:29 AM
( my preference for music that is ). tubes for the mid and upper frequencies and ss for the lows and inbetween. forget about the electricity bills and the heat and all the expenses associated with this hobby, as long as you are happy and have that extra money to spend I say why not go for it hindi natin madadala sa hukay ang lahat ng mase-save natin in this world. sa langit o kung saan man tayo mapunta after life e wala nang ss or tubes ;D kaya habang buhay pa tayo we should try to experience/explore the best that we can afford.......just my 2 cents ;D
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 11:43 AM
i was able to meet them all, except for the all around JojoD.
Rene Rivo- meet n greet. some converstations during hi fi shows.
John Poscablo- bought some tubes from him. medyo moody.hirap basahin. learned later, wife has some health issues yta.maybe has something to do.can understand.
Mang Rod Teope- used to lurk around his house in Conchu, watched him work with his tube amps, wind his traffos. even suggested/was credited the name MUSIKA for his pre amp, to pit against the TONO pre amp then.
Edrel-my neighbor here in EPZA. your friendly parts supplier. have his 7193 horny preamp.
Andrew Sevilla- even have his KT88PP int. amp.
Tonyt- don't have a creation from him yet. he is just a pm away if you have some questions need some technical guidance. The most active & generous among to share his time, technical knowhow, guidance & thoughts.imo, with his contributions, the community is very much blessed to have him around.
:)
Don why don't you invite them to see your lair and be dazzled by the quantity of your gears? :D
btw, the Luxman LV-105 you donated to me is just about to sing after 4 years, sana this year,
i will give you the first crack to listen to it....
John and I have been talking to each other in the later semester of last year, that is when i learned
a lot of things from him, i just hope that i have comforted him enough, i am aware of his health issues,
but i am sure he will recover from it and will be good as new....we do compare notes from time to time...;)
techies support each other, not so many people know this....i am also in touch with the malabon boys...
i am also happy to know that my tukayo, Trod93 is now good as new, talked to him just the other
day about hs cambridge phono upgrade....
like i said, i have no problem with fellow techies, even if sometimes we do not agree about diskarte, and that is just about right....
i never take comments here to heart, but instead learn from it....
my recent foray into lending out tube amps to would be users actually thought me a lot
about tube amps, and why not? i know how i made it.... >:D
so in effect i am more enriched by the experience, amps cost a finite amount of money,
but the knowledge gained, priceless....
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 11:47 AM
Quote
If anyone wants to venture to flea powered amps, check the SETUP/Harana guys!
agree, Joseph Esmilla's blogs are a joy to read....
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 03, 2016 at 11:49 AM
:)
Post by: luis on Feb 03, 2016 at 11:55 AM
- di ko type yung tunog
- umiinit, di na ka aircon yung listening room ko
- baka mapaso yung toddler ko
- baka madaling masira
- baka mahirap yung aftersales
- baka mahirap mag pa repair
- mahirap mag source ng replacement tubes and parts
- malakas sa kuryente
eto yung sagot mga sagot ko:
- pag di mo type yung tunog eh ikaw yun
- kahit di aircon yung room, ok lang basta may moving air.
- pag may bata valid yung paso concern pero baka may cage yung tube amp mo ok na yun.
- madaming nagrerepair ng tube dito sa atin
- maraming nag t-trade ng tube dito sa atin
- yung kuryente parehas lang sa SS
at the end of the line, my reco is to try it. bukod sa malambing and full sounding, sarap pang titigan. iba rin ang dating sa bisita. very nice conversation piece also.
;D
Post by: remington on Feb 03, 2016 at 12:52 PM
Post by: Superman on Feb 03, 2016 at 01:01 PM
My main reason for going into tube audio is that life is too short for me to be listening to crap music.
:)
:)
Post by: Nelson de Leon on Feb 03, 2016 at 01:11 PM
a friend of mine who does not want to be named but also a member here said that the reason why he won't go tubes is because of the overly prized rate of every local diyer he inquired to. mas mahal pa daw sa mga branded amps in his posession kung minsan ;D
Very reasonable nga ang mga local DIYers. Though there are also cheap china tube amps out there, depende din minsan sa parts na ginamit. But then again, it all boils down to synergy and preference. May install ako dati sa Paranque. He has branded tube and S/S amp. May Sakura din siya. In the end, he prefers the Sakura over the other amps. I'm a class D fan BTW pero hindi pa din mawawala yun inner desire ko with tubes.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 03, 2016 at 01:11 PM
Let me add a fellow music lover here at Pdvd just texted me "Ive heard many tube na including the primaluna, dynaco etc... special itong minima el84 amx".
As you said we should try to experience/explore the best that we can afford....... ;D
a friend of mine who does not want to be named but also a member here said that the reason why he won't go tubes is because of the overly prized rate of every local diyer he inquired to. mas mahal pa daw sa mga branded amps in his posession kung minsan ;D
Post by: kayee on Feb 03, 2016 at 01:36 PM
For me this hobby of ours is all about ones pleasure,happiness and satisfaction (pampa haba ng buhay as they say) that is why for me I use both SS and tubes amps at the same time to fill out my cravings for good sound+10 agreed....as long as happy ka sa hobby mo di mo na dapat isipin pa how much it will cost you sa electricity, sa parts ng ampli mo tube man ito or ss if masira ito para-paraan lang yan....and siguro mas maganda alamin mo rin gumawa ng ampli just in case na masira ikaw na ang mag repair ng gear mo siguro...di ako techies pero marami ka naman malalaman sa forum ng elab magbasabasa ka lang and kay boss tony meron din naman ako natutuhan sa mga post niya sa elab and he's nice if meron ka gusto matutuhan. diye'rs lang ako never ako bumili ng buong gear ko sariling sikap and happy naman ako sa ending ng tube ampli ko.... :)
( my preference for music that is ). tubes for the mid and upper frequencies and ss for the lows and inbetween. forget about the electricity bills and the heat and all the expenses associated with this hobby, as long as you are happy and have that extra money to spend I say why not go for it hindi natin madadala sa hukay ang lahat ng mase-save natin in this world. sa langit o kung saan man tayo mapunta after life e wala nang ss or tubes ;D kaya habang buhay pa tayo we should try to experience/explore the best that we can afford.......just my 2 cents ;D
Post by: regsantos on Feb 03, 2016 at 03:20 PM
I dont want to pick a fight with you sir tony but I cant figure you out.
First, you diverted the topic to nos tube and used tubes.
Now your inserting 'modifications' on a nos/used/russian/chinese tube comment of mine and cooltoyz.
To tube roll or to replace the original tubes that came with your new amp is reversible. It is not a modification.
All the more you are making it confusing for members who want to try vacuum tubes.
And what does me being a 'techie' have to do with all of these. You can have a tube amp and enjoy it even if you dont know the difference between a soldering iron and a soldering lead. Just ask around, in my case I would recommend Rene Rivo if someone needs assistance.
If anyone wants to venture to flea powered amps, check the SETUP/Harana guys!
While asking around and reading forums, Rene Rivo comes up alot. So I was curious because i want to move to tube amps for the reason that i like their sound more than ss. So i searched for him and talked to him. Went to his shop and boughy a sakura which he modified. I then upgraded a few other things in my system. I have been consulting him since the day I bought the sakura and when the time came that I want to upgrade my amp I went to him for advise. He Is a well known tube amp maker locally. But then again he wal bluntly honest with me knowing that he is a diy guy he gave me options and did not shove diy down my throat. Technicalities that i have no idea were not mentioned because he understand where i am coming from. I just want better sounding amp not be a techie and mind the simpliest technicalities of things. So i chose to buy a china made current production amp. The reasons were its problem free and less frustrating. Most specially for beginners like me. My point is you need to start somewhere. Not everything will be perfect at first and small changes needs to be made. Upgrade will always be on the back of your mind. I am satisfied with my set up right now but i know sooner or later i will demand more and will upgrade eventually. DIY, monoblocks or whatever.
Post by: dana on Feb 03, 2016 at 04:36 PM
ganun rin, if mura naman, tapos ok rin SQ performance, mas lalung panalo
Post by: dana on Feb 03, 2016 at 04:51 PM
...
btw, the Luxman LV-105......is just about to sing after 4 years, sana this year,
i will give you the first crack to listen to it....
John and I have been talking to each other in the later semester of last year, that is when i learned
a lot of things from him, i just hope that i have comforted him enough, i am aware of his health issues,
but i am sure he will recover from it and will be good as new....we do compare notes from time to time...;)
techies support each other, not so many people know this....i am also in touch with the malabon boys...
i am also happy to know that my tukayo, Trod93 is now good as new, talked to him just the other
day about hs cambridge phono upgrade....
like i said, i have no problem with fellow techies, even if sometimes we do not agree about diskarte, and that is just about right....
i never take comments here to heart, but instead learn from it....
my recent foray into lending out tube amps to would be users actually thought me a lot
about tube amps, and why not? i know how i made it.... >:D
so in effect i am more enriched by the experience, amps cost a finite amount of money,
but the knowledge gained, priceless....
wow, at last. resurrection.
would like it sana in its original form, if have the chance to restore-purist .
hope John P & Trodt gets well soon in their old healthy forms....
I heard Mang Rod is also not that well lately- as I know then, vertigo and arthiritis lately...
hope they get well soon, and continue making those nice amps...
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 04:59 PM
wow, at last. resurrection.
would like it sana in its original form, if have the chance to restore-purist .
hope John P & Trodt gets well soon in their old healthy forms....
I heard Mang Rod is also not that well lately- as I know then, vertigo and arthiritis lately...
hope they get well soon, and continue making those nice amps...
i only met him once, or twice, i heard that also and i hope he gets better....
the LV-105 is now 220 volts with IEC inlet....
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 03, 2016 at 05:27 PM
My 2A3 tube amp courtesy of Sir Tony. :)
Post by: dana on Feb 03, 2016 at 05:40 PM
seksi
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 03, 2016 at 05:47 PM
(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/Teta_Blanco/20151216_110122_zpsclpsqogk.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/user/Teta_Blanco/media/20151216_110122_zpsclpsqogk.jpg.html)
Thanks, Bud! :)
seksi
Post by: tony on Feb 03, 2016 at 06:15 PM
after arriving from Sahkalin, in 2010, jopet sold me a quad of Shuguang EL34's,
i made a pp amp out of that and was exhibited in Dusit hotel....then after that,
i built two 2A3 amps using the Shiguang tubes....
the experience changed my mind about china tubes...
the shuguang el34's survived months of abuse....
i think that to generalise that "china tubes are junk" is unfair to say the least....
i still hold the belief that it s not the tubes, but what you do with t that matters...
i have high respect for Russian tubes, working as a QC/QA engineer in Russia for six years,
i know the work ethics of Russian inspectors, they can not be forced to sign reports
unless they are very sure of quality, reason being, they can go to jail if a product
bearing their signature fails due to quality.... and russian tubes have traceability,
they can track whoever signed a defective tube...
so what am i saying? generalizations are usually self-defeating....
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 03, 2016 at 07:21 PM
1W of tube output is much much expensive compare 1W of Solid State.
So kung medyo concern ka sa cost, tube may not be for you.
Not declaring yourself as an audiophile might me the cheapest way to avoid
tubes. Normally in my observation, pag audiophile dapat may tube. (Peace tayo dito hah ;D ;D ;D hahaha)
Hindi lahat ng Solid State mura din. Stay away with Class A. Costly din ito.
Kung gusto mo ng magandang tunog, you have to pay for it.
Post by: ti on Feb 03, 2016 at 08:00 PM
that's my dilemma before, pangarap ko talaga avr pero mapakinggan ko yung tube nagustuhan ko din.
swerte naman dahil match naman yung 2 amp sa speaker ko.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 03, 2016 at 08:22 PM
Post by: majoe on Feb 03, 2016 at 08:27 PM
TEACHING is LOVING... loving the SMART TVC. Unfortunately cannot find it on Youtube.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 03, 2016 at 09:15 PM
Post by: dudong on Feb 03, 2016 at 09:23 PM
A tear fell :'(
Thanks for sharing!
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 03, 2016 at 09:25 PM
Post by: Imperial.doom on Feb 04, 2016 at 03:59 AM
Post by: Courage on Feb 04, 2016 at 07:06 AM
Bass is slow for uptempo/rock music. Will never go tubes, it is just not my taste. It may suit those who prefer audiophile/classical/acoustic music, not me.
Ganito ba sa lahat ng tube amp/integrated amp?
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 07:11 AM
For me, its the Cost of Ownership.
1W of tube output is much much expensive compare 1W of Solid State.
So kung medyo concern ka sa cost, tube may not be for you.
Not declaring yourself as an audiophile might me the cheapest way to avoid
tubes. Normally in my observation, pag audiophile dapat may tube. (Peace tayo dito hah ;D ;D ;D hahaha)
Hindi lahat ng Solid State mura din. Stay away with Class A. Costly din ito.
Kung gusto mo ng magandang tunog, you have to pay for it.
coming from a true blue diy'er i agree....
and may i also add that a 1 watt tube amp weighs heavier than a 1 watt ss amp...
but TBH, i like the sound of a 1 watt tube amp better than the sound of a 1 watt ss amp...
but this is just me.....:)
except perhaps the avegon transistor radio that we used to own as a kid in the 60's....
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 07:13 AM
Ganito ba sa lahat ng tube amp/integrated amp?
generalizations are usually self defeating,
my answer is depending on the amp and the speaker combo,
the room acoustics and your listening preference....
too many other variables to just pin it on the amp....
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 07:14 AM
Very reasonable nga ang mga local DIYers. Though there are also cheap china tube amps out there, depende din minsan sa parts na ginamit. But then again, it all boils down to synergy and preference. May install ako dati sa Paranque. He has branded tube and S/S amp. May Sakura din siya. In the end, he prefers the Sakura over the other amps. I'm a class D fan BTW pero hindi pa din mawawala yun inner desire ko with tubes.
well said.....;)
diy'ed amps are truly more expensive than branded amps, say you have a branded amp that costs 100K, but the cost is so because, bumayad ng design at R&D yan, merong factory setup para sa tooling, namasahe yan, nagbayad ng tax. nagpa advertising, nagbayad ng commision sa mga resellers...but direct costs and labor may be in the 15k to 20k only...
locally diy'ed amps only have direct labor and direct material costs, they do not have the luxury of branded manufacturers' capability of buying in bulk materials and employing cheap labor...
end users usually have no idea about this.....
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 07:25 AM
+10 agreed....as long as happy ka sa hobby mo di mo na dapat isipin pa how much it will cost you sa electricity, sa parts ng ampli mo tube man ito or ss if masira ito para-paraan lang yan....and siguro mas maganda alamin mo rin gumawa ng ampli just in case na masira ikaw na ang mag repair ng gear mo siguro...di ako techies pero marami ka naman malalaman sa forum ng elab magbasabasa ka lang and kay boss tony meron din naman ako natutuhan sa mga post niya sa elab and he's nice if meron ka gusto matutuhan. diye'rs lang ako never ako bumili ng buong gear ko sariling sikap and happy naman ako sa ending ng tube ampli ko.... :)
kayee, just the other night i got a call from three young diy'ers half my age....
seated beside me s Alex, who builds SS amps whose construction will put a Crown PB3 amp a run for the money..
seated beside him is Leo who at 19 can build bigger traffos than me, imagine what he can do 30 or 49 years from now....
then to the right is Efren, who flew in all the way from Cebu to see me, i helped him build his first EL84 pp amp and he says he is hooked...
these gents came to see me about tube amps and amps n general...i tried to scare them, they wouldn't budge...:D
i am happiest when these guys are around.....we speak a common language...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12647110_1225274447487625_4106030751541599867_n.jpg?oh=2e6c5010cc2acbf4186a6bdfb3c51079&oe=57347BA4&__gda__=1462728204_0e15c0883681487ce369b7e22f95f4a5)
Post by: jerrylodi on Feb 04, 2016 at 08:08 AM
sound - tubes & SS
;D ;) O0
Post by: Nelson de Leon on Feb 04, 2016 at 08:34 AM
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 04, 2016 at 09:51 AM
kayee, just the other night i got a call from three young diy'ers half my age....
seated beside me s Alex, who builds SS amps whose construction will put a Crown PB3 amp a run for the money..
seated beside him is Leo who at 19 can build bigger traffos than me, imagine what he can do 30 or 49 years from now....
then to the right is Efren, who flew in all the way from Cebu to see me, i helped him build his first EL84 pp amp and he says he is hooked...
these gents came to see me about tube amps and amps n general...i tried to scare them, they wouldn't budge...:D
i am happiest when these guys are around.....we speak a common language...
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 04, 2016 at 10:10 AM
Ganito ba sa lahat ng tube amp/integrated amp?
Maybe yes / maybe not....the same also with SS. It depends pa rin sa type ng music.
Newbie opinion lang po....Tube maybe dominantly 2nd harmonic that will make it slow on rock music.
Pairing it with a lower sensitive speaker will not be an ideal synergy. But it will perform well on vocals
but it will sound dry for Rock....My GUEST even you pair it with a high sensitive speaker, hindi pa rin
babayo ng katulad ng mga nasa Disco... pero pang Cabaret siguro pede na.
SS that can perform well with rock music, I would presume it will be dominantly 3rd harmonic. It can give
you the bass that you will be looking but maybe it will not sound good on the audiophile area. But
the number of Watts still counts.
There are SS designs that could be tuned either 2nd or 3rd Harmonic. In my experience it falls under
Class A. This is an expensive amplifier. It can give you a good bass and will compete with the mid
that tube can give.
In my case, my SS amp is tuned in which I'm not nulling completely the 2nd harmonic. I give a combination of 3rd and a little of 2nd.
In order to stay away from tubes, migrate to Class A SS amps.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 04, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 10:51 AM
Maybe yes / maybe not....the same also with SS. It depends pa rin sa type ng music.
Newbie opinion lang po....Tube maybe dominantly 2nd harmonic that will make it slow on rock music.
Pairing it with a lower sensitive speaker will not be an ideal synergy. But it will perform well on vocals
but it will sound dry for Rock....My GUEST even you pair it with a high sensitive speaker, hindi pa rin
babayo ng katulad ng mga nasa Disco... pero pang Cabaret siguro pede na.
SS that can perform well with rock music, I would presume it will be dominantly 3rd harmonic. It can give
you the bass that you will be looking but maybe it will not sound good on the audiophile area. But
the number of Watts still counts.
There are SS designs that could be tuned either 2nd or 3rd Harmonic. In my experience it falls under
Class A. This is an expensive amplifier. It can give you a good bass and will compete with the mid
that tube can give.
In my case, my SS amp is tuned in which I'm not nulling completely the 2nd harmonic. I give a combination of 3rd and a little of 2nd.
In order to stay away from tubes, migrate to Class A SS amps.
yes, Nelson Pass' Amp camp is one such amp....http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_amp_camp_1.pdf
and you can power it from 19volt laptop psu's....
Arnel Rabang working out of the middle east came out with single sided board lay-outs...
the design is single ended so that 2nd harmonics are not cancelled and thus mimic SET....
i can send you details if you pm me your email...
the amp as you will see uses the ubiquitous and cheap irfp240 mosfets...
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 10:52 AM
Tumaba ka ata master Tony.
di naman, mas magaan ako ng bahagya since returning from Russia....;)
Post by: remington on Feb 04, 2016 at 10:54 AM
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 11:02 AM
i only met him once, or twice, i heard that also and i hope he gets better....
i met Mang Rod in one of my rotations sometime in 2006, Gerry Sta Maria took me to his
place......
it was a cordial visit, he asked me about caps if i can hear a difference, he told me he can't, i
nodded in agreement and we both laughed it off.....:D
what makes Mang Rod stand out from the rest of the local DIY'ers is that he can make any tube sing,
not only those hyped types.....so i am happy that we share a common interest, TV tubes...;)
John Poscable and i had long telephone conversations, we can disagree, but a lot of times we agree on a lot of topics...
i wish these two good health....so you see, local DIY'ers support each other....;)
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 11:08 AM
I also listen a lot to rock music and several genres that needs that oooomp to sound good and based on my experience the likes of 6L6, kt88, kt120, kt150 tube amps are good for those kind of music and sometimes even better than the SS amps that I have owned ( to my ears that is :) )....paired with my audio nirvana speakers..........rak en roll pag may listening/drinking session ^-^..... I regretted selling master tonyT's 6L6/el34 push pull amp!!! all rounder yung amp na yun.......sayang :'(!
that was the amp we displayed in Dusit Hotel,
after playing Take 5 of Joe Morello on tukayo's 4 inch transmission line speakers,
a guy approached me and asked, "sir, nasaan po nakalagay ang subwoofer nyo?"
he was fooled and flabbergasted to find out that such a small sony 4 incher can produce such
kind of sound...... fyi, the irons were by Rey Luis.....
Post by: dana on Feb 04, 2016 at 12:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvHH4iqTHpw
kakatouch. niceness
tfs
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 04, 2016 at 04:09 PM
yes, Nelson Pass' Amp camp is one such amp....http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_amp_camp_1.pdf
and you can power it from 19volt laptop psu's....
Arnel Rabang working out of the middle east came out with single sided board lay-outs...
the design is single ended so that 2nd harmonics are not cancelled and thus mimic SET....
i can send you details if you pm me your email...
the amp as you will see uses the ubiquitous and cheap irfp240 mosfets...
Sir Tony,
PM sent.
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 04, 2016 at 04:31 PM
^ if Separates is an option maybe a Tube Pre-amp and a Solid State Power AMP for a hybrid set-up.
Sir Jo,
This is a good solution, but for me is not a simple plug and play.
As I understand (open for correction 8) 8) 8)) Output impedance of Tube is normally
high in which SS amp normally needed a pre-amp with lower impedance.
I still love the Solid state amp partnered with Solid State pre-amp. Depende rin sa mood
minsan tube pre din gamit ko but still Im coming back to SS.
BTW, this is for a non-Horn set-up.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 04, 2016 at 04:39 PM
But so far I have not had a problem paring a tube Pre-amp to a SS Power Amp for different makes.
Post by: tony on Feb 04, 2016 at 05:27 PM
Sir Tony,
PM sent.
email sent....
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 04, 2016 at 05:40 PM
^ Sir I am not a techie and do not even check the Output impedance , I just let my ears and preference be the judge... if it sounds good then it is good. If there is distortion maybe it is the Output impedance and I just move on to finding a system with good matching. :)
But so far I have not had a problem paring a tube Pre-amp to a SS Power Amp for different makes.
Sir Jo,
Im not a technie din po. I just learned, just a little mix of understanding sa mga technical
specs ng mga audio gear natin will make our journey a little shorter. We can judge by our ear
but we can still go further by verifying what we are listening is correct or there will be a room
for improvement without selling the whole set-up or change to a more expensive one.
Before I keep changing amplifiers.... now I keep building my own amplifiers which makes my audio
journey more exciting. :D :D :D
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 04, 2016 at 05:53 PM
I guess I am lucky that these days most sellers now allow for home audition before final purchase. Often the sellers become friends and become part of the listening group enjoying music with wine and cheese.
Post by: tony on Feb 07, 2016 at 11:04 AM
Quote
Before I keep changing amplifiers.... now I keep building my own amplifiers which makes my audio journey more exciting. :D :D :D
good man yourself...... ;)
the joy of building things and making them work by your own hands
gives you more enjoyment than the actual sound of the amp itself,
this is something we DY'ers understand very well... ;D
Post by: tony on Feb 07, 2016 at 11:07 AM
and may i warn you, the output irons makes or breaks any tube power amp,
tubes are easy, they have sockets so that they are very easy to replace...
the Citation V that Eli mentioned is among my favorite topologies.....
the rest of the thread is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/286096-design-advise-2.html#post4608430
Quote from: Eli Duttman;4608430
Tubes are very much a niche market. If it wasn't for guitar pickers, nobody would be currently making tubes. The magnetics needed have always added to the costs and the few people left that know how to construct "esoteric" "iron" deal in low volumes. The economies of scale are not available to us, in this hobby.
A watt is a watt, but tube amps, unlike SS stuff, can safely be pushed right up to the clipping point. Tube amps compress, before hard clipping sets in and your tweeters get fried. I think you might be very pleasantly surprised by a Cit. 5 "copy", with a really good PSU. You will have dynamic capability of 100+ W. Continuous power will be around 50+ W., but music is transients. ;)
Do you happen to know what the impedance curve of your speakers looks like? Sometimes, like big Thiels, the impedance dips are so nasty as to make tubed power amplification a very bad choice. Proper mating of power amplification and speakers is a critical piece of the superior system puzzle.
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 08, 2016 at 08:18 AM
Post by: geriboy on Feb 08, 2016 at 09:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvHH4iqTHpw
OT:
Ang ganda ng video. :D
Yung tube amp, mukhang sakura... So luma na yung sakura model na ito :D
Siguro kung ako ang anak sa video, baka hindi ako magdadalawang isip na gumamit ng tube amplifier sa sound system ko paglaki ko :D
Post by: tony on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:04 PM
One of the things that I've learned from talking to Tony and my readings on the topic is that most, if not all, vacuum or electron tubes have been designed as general purpose tubes without any specific function (ex. audio, transmission, etc.) in mind. As a matter of fact, a lot of the highly-regarded JAN (Joint Army-Navy) tubes are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were tested to meet military specs. A popular preamp tube, the RCA 12sx7, was widely used in U.S. military avionics before it found cntemporary use as an audio tube. Provided that a tube does not possess characteristics that would make it unsuitable for audio use (ex. microphonic, etc.), any tube (including those used for radar, transmission, TV, radio, etc) can theoretically be used for tube audio if someone clever enough can design a circuit that can best take advantage of its characteristics. The deciding factor of which tube to use would be a matter of economics rather than engineering since Japanese demand for so-called audio tubes have caused the prices of these tubes to skyrocket from mere cents until the late 1990's to more than a thousand dollars for the highly-sought-after ones. The trick then is to find a tube that is still well-below the radar and to design and implement an outstanding tube audio circuit for it. This is what Tony has been doing for the growing DIY community.
yes, there are a lot of "sleeper tubes" out there, tubes that most so called audofiles will scorn,
so called tv tubes are as original as vintage tubes get, they are not hyped so that prices remain low...
so if you are skeptical about new production tubes, then these are the tubes for you,
no, i have nothing against new production types, they will be here to stay....
for as long as there are guitarists demanding tube guitar heads, they will continue to be in production...
there are thousands upon thousands of tube types that many do not even know about...
Anatoly, who is a friend in FB and at DIY adio is one ruskie-american and a very capable designer:
https://www.facebook.com/Wavebourn/?fref=photo
his GU-50 can drive quad esl speakers with gusto...
(https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12647116_1048443815213919_2758850188409385774_n.jpg?oh=03e8ca03dc0729d9fa65824248cc2923&oe=57323ADC)
Post by: Nelson de Leon on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:15 PM
Post by: tony on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:19 PM
I would like to think that those JAN & mils spec tubes has it's advantages in terms of longetivity. Correct me if I'm wrong master Tony.
yes, since they were made for the military, they abide by the JAN(joint army navy) standards and are many times more in terms of cost....
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:31 PM
I would like to think that those JAN & mils spec tubes has it's advantages in terms of longetivity. Correct me if I'm wrong master Tony.
Longevity, yes, since JAN tubes are tested for durability for rugged real-world use by the military. Specs-wise, JAN tubes are subjected to more exacting testing standards in light of the substantially smaller tolerances required by the military. More consistent and better quality tubes translates to more reliable and consistent tube performance. That's why JAN tubes were used for the military's most mission-critical applications such as radar, avionics, etc. The tight manufacturing and usage tolerance required by the military of JAN tubes is what makes these highly-sought-after among the tube audio crowd.
Post by: dimfer on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:41 PM
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:52 PM
a) One (1) pair of RCA JAN CRC 12SX7GT tubes (c. 1955 / same series manufacturing date); and
b) One (1) pair of Amperex JAN 5894 tubes (c. 1984)
More tubes for tube-rolling on my Master Tony preamp and amp!
:)
(http://rs446.pbsrc.com/albums/qq187/Teta_Blanco/Mobile%20Uploads/20160208_123559_zpsro0tua0y.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip)
http://s446.photobucket.com/user/Teta_Blanco/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160208_123559_zpsro0tua0y.jpg.html?o=0
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 08, 2016 at 03:05 PM
Mukhang Mali yata ung title....
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 08, 2016 at 03:42 PM
Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes? 8) 8) 8)
Mukhang Mali yata ung title....
I think the title's correct since the topic deals with the most common misconceptions about tube audio - foremost among which is that you have to spend lots of money just to enjoy good tube sound.
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 08, 2016 at 04:07 PM
strong point of SS.
Post by: Abad Santos 7 on Feb 08, 2016 at 04:28 PM
good man yourself...... ;)
the joy of building things and making them work by your own hands
gives you more enjoyment than the actual sound of the amp itself,
this is something we DY'ers understand very well... ;D
Minsan Sir ingat din tayong mga DY'ers, may mga nagD-DIY pag tumunog na... sasabihin
the best na raw sa mga nadinig nyang speaker or amplifier.
May natatandaan ako... he swear that his creation is better than any branded gear.... nung may nagtanong..hinaluan nya ba ng Science or nag measure ba sya dung sa DIY nya, bigla sabi... decided ng ear ko yan eh...
Post by: tony on Feb 08, 2016 at 04:58 PM
Minsan Sir ingat din tayong mga DY'ers, may mga nagD-DIY pag tumunog na... sasabihin
the best na raw sa mga nadinig nyang speaker or amplifier.
May natatandaan ako... he swear that his creation is better than any branded gear.... nung may nagtanong..hinaluan nya ba ng Science or nag measure ba sya dung sa DIY nya, bigla sabi... decided ng ear ko yan eh...
sa totoo lang ayaw kong pag-usapan ang mga gawa ko lalo na kung pupurihin,
kasi nga i do not want to give folks false hopes....but i am wiling and able to discuss
the technical details, walang sikreto, all that is needed is to ask...
i posted a review made in july, but only to make a point....
kadalasan hindi naman yung gumawa, kung hndi yung mga miron ang maingay,
meron nga dyan panay ang puri sa isang diy'er, pero tanungin mo kung anong gear
ng diy'er ang meron sya, wala naman.... >:D
yung decided by ear naman, wala tayong magagawa doon, hnd natin mapiplit
magpaliwanag kung ayaw....kung yun ang trip nya, eh di sige lang....
Post by: tony on Feb 08, 2016 at 05:00 PM
Oh Sorry, Im just expecting a some sort of discussion of weak point of tubes and
strong point of SS.
there is plenty of that on either side of the aisle....one need only to keep an open mind...
the question then is a matter of priority, which consideration is most important to you....
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 09, 2016 at 12:59 PM
We do not listen to equipment nor the engineering, we listen to the output which is the music produced.
there is plenty of that on either side of the aisle....one need only to keep an open mind...
the question then is a matter of priority, which consideration is most important to you....
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 09, 2016 at 02:08 PM
And to add go where the sound quality will suit your ears.
We do not listen to equipment nor the engineering, we listen to the output which is the music produced.
Precisely. We do not simply dismiss another's handiwork, most especially if we haven't even heard it in the first place.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 09, 2016 at 03:00 PM
Post by: mykel18 on Feb 09, 2016 at 03:50 PM
Post by: tony on Feb 12, 2016 at 10:24 AM
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 12, 2016 at 12:43 PM
https://youtu.be/_-JzxX75oYc
Ok, ah! "Modern" :)
Post by: tony on Feb 12, 2016 at 01:05 PM
http://davidberning.com/
this amp uses the 6LF6/EL509 horizontal output tubes....
http://davidberning.com/products/ea2100
but of course others will just stick to the usual suspects,45, 2A3, 300b, 845, el84, el34, kt88 etc..., i'd say they are missing a lot...;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 12, 2016 at 07:45 PM
Listening to another system also gives you the chance to hear and experience other gears. Learn from their experience. Along the way, you will hear something that will be a reference to you in building or improving your system. It may have to be the same equipment or not but at least you know the sound you want. Let your ears decide (and wallet) whatever happens.
Post by: tony on Feb 12, 2016 at 07:48 PM
those contemplating on tube gears, the 12ax7 is most used tube in a guitar amps and phono heads...
the whole point of this post is for tube noobs to realize that there is more to the label of the 12ax7 printed on the glass...that the 12ax7 you are holdng now may not be what it seems.... >:D
better informed means you can be immuned from the spins and hypes.....
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/Bob01605/Gainfactor12XX7tubes_2.jpg~original)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 12, 2016 at 07:59 PM
How to Spot Super Rare 12AX7 Vacuum Tubes part I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6d-cZB7DgA
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 13, 2016 at 06:27 AM
Is a 12AX7 a TV tube?
One of the most common misconceptions by tube newbies and those caught up in the "audiophile" marketing hype is that certain tubes are "audio tubes" while others are "TV tubes", etc. When they were first designed, vacuum or electron tubes were created as general purpose tubes. Depending upon their unique characteristics, raw materials availability, manufacturing costs, etc., some tubes were later assigned to specific purposes. For example, a popular preamp tube - the RCA JAN CRC 12sx7gt - was originally used for radar and avionics by the US military. However and because of its unique characteristics, it later found contemporary use as an audio preamp tube. JAN (Joint-Army-Navy) tubes are particularly sought after now since quality is more consistent in light of the US military's more stringent manufacturing and technical specifications for these.
Technically speaking, there is no such thing as an "audio tube" or a "TV tube", etc since electron tubes do nothing more than amplify ANY electrical signal. Later on, certain tubes were designated as transmission tubes due to their high amplification properties or as audio tubes due to low microphonics.
Most of the so-called audio tubes now are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were later designated for audio use for marketing reasons. Mostly because of high demand from audio enthusiasts from Japan, Taiwan, etc. who wanted to soften the hardness of digital music from CD, etc, vacuum tubes that used to cost mere cents and were later designated through marketing hype as "audio tubes" (such as the NOS 300B, 2A3, etc.) have skyrocketed in price due to market speculation. Once an unknown general purpose tube gains popularity as an "audio tube" and speculation again drives the price up (a Taiwanese once bought up tens of thousands of a particular unknown tube when it gained popularity as an "audio tube" among the DIY community), DIYers who are mostly seasoned electrical engineers like Tony who have been exposed to both the analog and digital side of the technology then search for other tubes to use. You'll see this phenomenon happen often on DIY audio sites.
Once a tube becomes expensive, Tony and the other DIYer's then search for other unknown but still relatively-cheap tubes which can be used for audio and then design and build customized circuits for these. At the end of the day, what truly counts in tube audio is the sound and not the marketing hype surrounding certain tubes since this only serves to fatten those in the business of milking money out of those who don't know any better.
Post by: tony on Feb 13, 2016 at 06:40 AM
indeed there are thousands of "sleeper " tubes out there,
and thanks to the efforts of guys like smoking-amp, tubelab, wavebourn, YvesM and others,
these sleeper tubes are being unearthed and discussed...
you will be amazed at how a certain tube gets gobbled up once it is discussed at diyaudio..
just about a couple of years, tubelab tells me, that certain taiwanese group purchased
10,000 pcs of 6gv5 from a florida seller...
after that the price increased from a dollar each to about 5 dollars...
another good read.....http://www.elektronikinfo.de/strom/ecc83_12ax7.htm
next time we will talk about the 6sn7, stand by.....
Post by: tony on Feb 13, 2016 at 08:48 AM
he is basically saying the same thing as in the video above....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6d-cZB7DgA
i merely pointed him in some directions....;)
One of the most common misconceptions by tube newbies and those caught up in the "audiophile" marketing hype is that certain tubes are "audio tubes" while others are "TV tubes", etc. When they were first designed, vacuum or electron tubes were created as general purpose tubes. Depending upon their unique characteristics, raw materials availability, manufacturing costs, etc., some tubes were later assigned to specific purposes. For example, a popular preamp tube - the RCA JAN CRC 12sx7gt - was originally used for radar and avionics by the US military. However and because of its unique characteristics, it later found contemporary use as an audio preamp tube. JAN (Joint-Army-Navy) tubes are particularly sought after now since quality is more consistent in light of the US military's more stringent manufacturing and technical specifications for these.
Technically speaking, there is no such thing as an "audio tube" or a "TV tube", etc since electron tubes do nothing more than amplify ANY electrical signal. Later on, certain tubes were designated as transmission tubes due to their high amplification properties or as audio tubes due to low microphonics.
Most of the so-called audio tubes now are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were later designated for audio use for marketing reasons. Mostly because of high demand from audio enthusiasts from Japan, Taiwan, etc. who wanted to soften the hardness of digital music from CD, etc, vacuum tubes that used to cost mere cents and were later designated through marketing hype as "audio tubes" (such as the NOS 300B, 2A3, etc.) have skyrocketed in price due to market speculation. Once an unknown general purpose tube gains popularity as an "audio tube" and speculation again drives the price up (a Taiwanese once bought up tens of thousands of a particular unknown tube when it gained popularity as an "audio tube" among the DIY community), DIYers who are mostly seasoned electrical engineers like Tony who have been exposed to both the analog and digital side of the technology then search for other tubes to use. You'll see this phenomenon happen often on DIY audio sites.
Once a tube becomes expensive, Tony and the other DIYer's then search for other unknown but still relatively-cheap tubes which can be used for audio and then design and build customized circuits for these. At the end of the day, what truly counts in tube audio is the sound and not the marketing hype surrounding certain tubes since this only serves to fatten those in the business of milking money out of those who don't know any better.
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 13, 2016 at 09:46 AM
As a newbie I merely wanted to confirm if a 12AX7 is a TV Tube as I do not want to be missing a lot...
1)
those of you who scoff at mere TV tubes, this designer makes high end amps output the scorned TV tubes...
http://davidberning.com/
this amp uses the 6LF6/EL509 horizontal output tubes....
http://davidberning.com/products/ea2100
but of course others will just stick to the usual suspects,45, 2A3, 300b, 845, el84, el34, kt88 etc..., i'd say they are missing a lot...;)
2)
Is a 12AX7 a TV tube?
3)
One of the most common misconceptions by tube newbies and those caught up in the "audiophile" marketing hype is that certain tubes are "audio tubes" while others are "TV tubes", etc.
Post by: dudong on Feb 13, 2016 at 09:58 AM
Is a 12AX7 a TV tube?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AX7
:)
Post by: tony on Feb 13, 2016 at 10:44 AM
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/285100-those-magnificent-television-tubes.html
smoking-amp made a comparative study.....
Quote from: smoking-amp;4612358
Here are some 12BQ6 curves for g2 drive and "Crazy Drive" (hybrid g2 and g1).xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/285100-those-magnificent-television-tubes-2.html#post4578292 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/285100-those-magnificent-television-tubes-2.html#post4578292)
When the datasheet refers to high perveance, they are usually talking about the g1 gm being high. For g2, divide that by the g2/g1 Mu factor. So for the 12BQ6GT, gm1 = 5550 at 55 mA, Mu = 4.3, so gm2 = 5550/4.3 = 1290 (about what a 12AX7 has for g1 gm!)
Here are some data for TV Sweeps in general, for g2 drive purposes. This gives the plate knee current available for g2 = 150 V (with g1 = 0 V). Tubes at the top of the list are the more desirable for g2 drive. (For example, a 35LR6 could get you gm2 = 16000/3.5 = 4571)
Crazy Drive (g2 and g1 hybrid) can reduce the drive voltage requirement by around 33% from plain g2 drive. It's also more linear. Same high Rp out though, so some kind of N Fdbk needed to lower output Z.
List of knee currents for g2 = 150 V, g1 = 0 V, Vp = 60 to 80 V
<tube> <Watts> <mA knee@150Vg2> <gm1> <Mu> <maxDCmA> <registered by> <date>
6LF6 40W 1144mA@150V 15K@125mA Mu3 500mADC Amperex 1968
6KG6/EL509 34W 1135mA@150V 13K@150mA Mu3.2 500mADC Amperex 1965
6MC6 33W 1130mA@150V 14K@125mA Mu4 400mADC RCA (6LX6 clone) 1972
13E1 90W(absmax) 1120mA@150V 35K@500mA Mu4.5 800mADC AEI 1961
6MH6 38.3W 1100mA@150V 14K@125mA Mu4 500mADC GE (up-rated 6LX6,6KD6,26HU5) 1972
6MB6 38W 1085mA@150V 14K@110mA Mu3.5 400mADC Sylvania 1971
6LR6 30W 1085mA@150V 16K@140mA Mu3.5 375mADC Sylvania 1968
6LX6/6KD6/26HU5 33W 1080mA@150V 14K@125mA Mu4 400mADC GE 1969/1965/1969
6LW6 40W 1050mA@150V 12K@125mA Mu3.7 400mADC GE 1971
6KN6 30W 1050mA@150V 16K@100mA Mu4.5 400mADC Sylvania 1965 (later versions are 6KD6)
6LZ6 30W 940mA@150V 11K@140mA Mu3 350mADC RCA 1971
6LB6/A 30W/35W 825mA@150V 13.4K@105mA Mu4 315mADC GE 1967
6JE6C/6JS6C 30W 789mA@150V 10.5K@130mA Mu3 350mADC Sylvania 68/69
6JE6 24W 762mA@150V 9.6K@115mA Mu3 315mADC RCA 1962
6JS6/6HF5 28W 749mA@150V 11.5K@130mA Mu3 315mADC GE 1964/1963
6MJ6 30W 740mA@150V 11K@100mA Mu3.6 350mADC RCA 1973
6LG6 28W 740mA@150V 11.5K@90mA Mu3.6 315mADC GE 1967
6LQ6 30W 715mA@150V 7.5K@95mA Mu3 350mADC RCA 1967
6ME6 30W 700mA@150V 9.6@130mA Mu3.5 350mADC RCA 1971
6DQ5 24W 690mA@150V 10.5K@110mA Mu3.3 315mADC RCA 1957
6JF6/6JG6 17W 660mA@150V 10K@80mA Mu4.1 275mADC RCA 1965/1964
6KM6 20W 630mA@150V 9.5K@80mA Mu4 275mADC RCA 1965
6HD5/6HJ5 24W 630mA@150V 10K@80mA Mu4.2 280mADC Raytheon 1962/1963
6JR6/6JU6 17W 600mA@150V 7K@45mA Mu4.7 275mADC RCA 1968/1966
6JZ6/21HB5A 18W 560mA@150V 9K@46mA Mu4.8 230mADC GE 1966/1964
12HE7 10-15W 540mA@150V 8.8K@60mA Mu4.2 200mADC GE (15W if damper disabled) 1964
6CL5 25W 514mA@150V 6.5K@90mA Mu3 240mADC Sylvania 1955
6GB5/29KQ6/EL500 17W 500mA@150V 13K@100mA Mu5.1 275mADC Amperex 1961/Matsucrapa 1959/Philips 1961?
6KV6/A 20-28W 488/610mA@150V 6K@40mA Mu4 275mADC RCA (re-rated 6KM6?) 1967/1969
6HB5/6GY5/21JV6/6KE6/16KA6 18W 475mA@150V 9.1K@50mA Mu4.7 230mADC GE/GE/GE/Ray/Tung 1962/1962/1965/1965/1964
6EX6 22W 460mA@150V 7.7K@67mA Mu4.2 220mADC Raytheon (up-rated 6CD6) 1959
6CB5/A 23W 440mA@150V 8.8K@90mA Mu3.8 240mADC RCA 1954/1956
6CD6/GA 15/20W 422mA@150V 7.7K@75mA Mu3.9 200mADC RCA/GE 1949/1954
6GT5/6GJ5/6JT6/6JB6/6GW6 17.5W 380mA@150V 7.1K@70mA Mu4.4 175mADC RCA 1961/1961/1964/1962/1961
6GE5 17.5W 350mA@150V 7.3K@65mA Mu4.4 175mADC GE 1961
6GF5 9W 345mA@150V 4.7K@34mA Mu4.2 160mADC GE 1961
6JM6/6JN6/6FW5/6GC6 17.5W 340mA@150V 7.3K@70mA Mu4.4 175mADC GE 1964/1964/1960/1960
6DQ6B/6GV5 17.5W/18W 330mA@150V 7.3K@65mA Mu4.4 175mADC GE 1959/1962
6DQ6/A 18W 280mA@150V 6.6K@55mA Mu4.1 120/155mADC CBS/RCA 1955/1956
6JA5/10JA5 19W 276mA@150V 10.3K@95mA Mu5.5 110mADC GE 1971
6LU8/6LR8//6MY8 14//16W 265mA@150V 9.3K@56mA Mu6.5 75mADC Sylvania 1964/1964//1970(Toshiba)
6AV5/GA///6BQ6/GA 11W 255ma@150V 5.9K@57mA Mu4.3 110mADC CBS/GE 1949/1955 /// CBS/Syl 1949/1953
KT120 60W 221ma@150V 190mADC
KT90 50W 220mA@150V
6Y6G/GT/GA 12.5W 200mA@150V Ray 1937/KenRad 1939/Syl 1954
6550A 35W/42W 190mA@150V 11K@140mA 190mADC
6W6GT 10W 185mA@150V 8K@46mA Mu6.2 65mADC CBS 1939
KT88 35W 170mA@150V 175mADC
6CA7/EL34 25W 107mA@150V 11K@100mA Mu10.5 150mADC Philips 1952
6JC5 19W 80mA@150V 4.1K@43mA Mu7 75mADC Sylvania 1971
6L6/G/GA/GB/GC 30W 77mA@150V 4.7K@40mA Mu8 110mADC RCA 1936/Ray 1936/Syl 1943/Syl 1954/GE 1958
6HB6 10W 70mA@150V 20K@40mA Mu33 60mADC Raytheon 1961
6GK6 13.2W 65mA@150V 11.3K@48mA Mu19 65mADC CBS 1959
6BQ5/EL84 12W 65mA@150V 11.3K@48mA Mu19.5 65mADC Rogers 1956
6V6G/GT 14W 45mA@150V 4.1K@45mA Mu9.8 40mADC KenRad 1936/CBS 1939
Post by: tony on Feb 13, 2016 at 11:34 AM
the receiving types and the transmitting types....
the term TV tubes came about because of the millions upon millions
of television sets made all around the earth,
and the perhaps billions of tubes made for them...
so much so that decades after the tube type tv's became obsolete,
the tubes meant as replacements are still in warehouses all over the US and Europe,
even here in manila, we still can find caches of TV tubes, the recent of
my acquisition composed 1800 pcs from a shop in malabon...
proof of existence of these tubes is the fact that some sellers in the states
have periodic sale down to U$0.35 per piece if you buy by the hundreds...
Post by: tony on Feb 15, 2016 at 08:12 AM
this is another tube much loved by the audiophile crowd, so much so
that Antique Sounds Lab used then extensively in many of their amps...
the legendary Williamson type amps....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_amplifier
likewise started out with them to drive
tube like the kt66 ~ 88, 6550, 6L6 and EL34 types....
the 6SN7 was later replaced with minature types like the 12au7's and the 6CG7/6GQ7's....
the 6CG7/6GQ7's is the 9 pin version of the octal 6SN7's....
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/6SN7/6SN7.htm
this is a video about NOS 6sn7 tube....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trzsvo_erx4
second part...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hArIxmPHG-s
third oart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ9F1EJHO_w
good read:
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt
http://www.earlytelevision.org/Deksnis/CTC2_horiz_osc.html
http://www.radioremembered.org/admiral20x1.html
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 15, 2016 at 07:06 PM
the 6SN7 tube.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6SN7
this is another tube much loved by the audiophile crowd, so much so
that Antique Sounds Lab used then extensively in many of their amps...
the legendary Williamson type amps....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_amplifier
likewise started out with them to drive
tube like the kt66 ~ 88, 6550, 6L6 and EL34 types....
the 6SN7 was later replaced with minature types like the 12au7's and the 6CG7/6GQ7's....
the 6CG7/6GQ7's is the 9 pin version of the octal 6SN7's....
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/6SN7/6SN7.htm
this is a video about NOS 6sn7 tube....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trzsvo_erx4
second part...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hArIxmPHG-s
third oart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ9F1EJHO_w
good read:
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt
http://www.earlytelevision.org/Deksnis/CTC2_horiz_osc.html
http://www.radioremembered.org/admiral20x1.html
The 6SN7 is rather pricey nowadays. Its cheaper 12-volt cousins, the 12SN7 and 12SX7, are what I use now for my Master Tony tube preamp. :)
Post by: tony on Feb 19, 2016 at 08:37 PM
this is a good read about NOS tubes....http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/world-of-NOS-tubes.htm
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 20, 2016 at 10:06 AM
Post by: tony on Feb 20, 2016 at 11:44 AM
then it is a radio tube....when the tube is used in an audio amp, then it is an audio tube....
tubes themselves do not have any idea of where or how they are used,
but people do, designers of tube amps specially.....;)
Post by: tetablanco on Feb 20, 2016 at 02:18 PM
Are the 12-volt cousins, the 12SN7 and 12SX7 considered as part of the "TV Tubes"?
http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4984
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 20, 2016 at 03:24 PM
when a tube is pulled out of a tv set, then it is a tv tube, when the tube is pulled out of a radio,
then it is a radio tube....when the tube is used in an audio amp, then it is an audio tube....
tubes themselves do not have any idea of where or how they are used,
but people do, designers of tube amps specially.....;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 20, 2016 at 03:35 PM
The articles does not mention the 6Sn7 or the 12SX7 being used on Television
...which means 6SN7 and 12SX7 users are still missing a lot because they are not TV tubes.
those of you who scoff at mere TV tubes, this designer makes high end amps output the scorned TV tubes...
http://davidberning.com/
this amp uses the 6LF6/EL509 horizontal output tubes....
http://davidberning.com/products/ea2100
but of course others will just stick to the usual suspects,45, 2A3, 300b, 845, el84, el34, kt88 etc..., i'd say they are missing a lot...;)
Post by: dudong on Feb 20, 2016 at 03:56 PM
There are all weather tires, mud grapplers, sand terrain tires, slick tires etc.
Can you use mud grapplers in your truck and drive fast in the skyway? Of course!
Can you use slick tires while its raining? Why not!
Is it advisable to use them in those situations? Not really.
Check out Audio Magazines published between 1959 to 1962, look at the tube complement on all of the manufacturer's products; what do they all have in common? 12AX7/ECC83s (because it is an audio tube)
And according to RCA, a 6AN8 is an all weather tire (tube)
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd221/dudongski/7A660F70-D0CE-430E-BEDE-44F4045AC2FE.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/dudongski/media/7A660F70-D0CE-430E-BEDE-44F4045AC2FE.jpg.html)
Post by: tony on Feb 20, 2016 at 04:07 PM
the circuit came from a tv vertical oscillator, and why not?,
tv's vertical section is an audio circuit, and linear too...
of course, end users will never appreciate this....
i posted this information in 2013 here:
http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26792&start=40
this is the original webpage: http://www.hawestv.com/mtv_cbssys/cbssysadapt1.htm
a victor tv service manual showing the tube.....three of them in fact....
http://www.ee.sc.edu/classes/Spring12/elct402/AssignmentDetails/RCA_Victor.pdf
if you are new to tubes, there is a big chance that you do not know about this....
but this is not a big deal really, but it is nice to know... ;)
Post by: tony on Feb 20, 2016 at 04:08 PM
Vacuum tubes are like tires...
There are all weather tires, mud grapplers, sand terrain tires, slick tires etc.
Can you use mud grapplers in your truck and drive fast in the skyway? Of course!
Can you use slick tires while its raining? Why not!
Is it advisable to use them in those situations? Not really.
Check out Audio Magazines published between 1959 to 1962, look at the tube complement on all of the manufacturer's products; what do they all have in common? 12AX7/ECC83s (because it is an audio tube)
And according to RCA, a 6AN8 is an all weather tire (tube)
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd221/dudongski/7A660F70-D0CE-430E-BEDE-44F4045AC2FE.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/dudongski/media/7A660F70-D0CE-430E-BEDE-44F4045AC2FE.jpg.html)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Feb 20, 2016 at 04:11 PM
there is a locally made line amp using the 6sn7 and looking at the wring,
the circuit came from a tv vertical oscillator, and why not?,
tv's vertical section is an audio circuit, and linear too...
of course, end users will never appreciate this....
i posted this information in 2013 here:
http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26792&start=40
this is the original webpage: http://www.hawestv.com/mtv_cbssys/cbssysadapt1.htm
a victor tv service manual showing the tube.....three of them in fact....
http://www.ee.sc.edu/classes/Spring12/elct402/AssignmentDetails/RCA_Victor.pdf
if you are new to tubes, there is a big chance that you do not know about this....
bit that this is a big deal really, but it is nice to know...
Post by: tony on Feb 20, 2016 at 04:32 PM
Post by: Hammerheart on Feb 20, 2016 at 07:39 PM
Post by: tony on Feb 20, 2016 at 07:41 PM
Because i love solid state. It rocks!!!!
indeed it does....;)
and if someone is trying to convince you about tubes amps,
just make sure he is not trying to sell you a tube amp, or used tubes even....... >:D
Post by: tony on Feb 21, 2016 at 08:57 AM
that there are a lot of tubes out there waiting to see action in an audio amp...
this is what i mean that you can be missing a lot....
the excellent work by Don, aka smoking-amp, and George Sanders, aka tubelab, http://tubelab.com/
are all posted at diyaudio......
the tube table that smoking-amp came up with listed the hierarchy of tubes wrt cathode capacity,
arranged from highest to lowest, notice that the 6AV5 scored higher than the Kt120......
in fact, the audio tubes are in the bottom of the list.......
Quote from: smoking-amp;4612358
Here are some 12BQ6 curves for g2 drive and "Crazy Drive" (hybrid g2 and g1).xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/285100-those-magnificent-television-tubes-2.html#post4578292 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/285100-those-magnificent-television-tubes-2.html#post4578292)
When the datasheet refers to high perveance, they are usually talking about the g1 gm being high. For g2, divide that by the g2/g1 Mu factor. So for the 12BQ6GT, gm1 = 5550 at 55 mA, Mu = 4.3, so gm2 = 5550/4.3 = 1290 (about what a 12AX7 has for g1 gm!)
Here are some data for TV Sweeps in general, for g2 drive purposes. This gives the plate knee current available for g2 = 150 V (with g1 = 0 V). Tubes at the top of the list are the more desirable for g2 drive. (For example, a 35LR6 could get you gm2 = 16000/3.5 = 4571)
Crazy Drive (g2 and g1 hybrid) can reduce the drive voltage requirement by around 33% from plain g2 drive. It's also more linear. Same high Rp out though, so some kind of N Fdbk needed to lower output Z.
List of knee currents for g2 = 150 V, g1 = 0 V, Vp = 60 to 80 V
<tube> <Watts> <mA knee@150Vg2> <gm1> <Mu> <maxDCmA> <registered by> <date>
6LF6 40W 1144mA@150V 15K@125mA Mu3 500mADC Amperex 1968
6KG6/EL509 34W 1135mA@150V 13K@150mA Mu3.2 500mADC Amperex 1965
6MC6 33W 1130mA@150V 14K@125mA Mu4 400mADC RCA (6LX6 clone) 1972
13E1 90W(absmax) 1120mA@150V 35K@500mA Mu4.5 800mADC AEI 1961
6MH6 38.3W 1100mA@150V 14K@125mA Mu4 500mADC GE (up-rated 6LX6,6KD6,26HU5) 1972
6MB6 38W 1085mA@150V 14K@110mA Mu3.5 400mADC Sylvania 1971
6LR6 30W 1085mA@150V 16K@140mA Mu3.5 375mADC Sylvania 1968
6LX6/6KD6/26HU5 33W 1080mA@150V 14K@125mA Mu4 400mADC GE 1969/1965/1969
6LW6 40W 1050mA@150V 12K@125mA Mu3.7 400mADC GE 1971
6KN6 30W 1050mA@150V 16K@100mA Mu4.5 400mADC Sylvania 1965 (later versions are 6KD6)
6LZ6 30W 940mA@150V 11K@140mA Mu3 350mADC RCA 1971
6LB6/A 30W/35W 825mA@150V 13.4K@105mA Mu4 315mADC GE 1967
6JE6C/6JS6C 30W 789mA@150V 10.5K@130mA Mu3 350mADC Sylvania 68/69
6JE6 24W 762mA@150V 9.6K@115mA Mu3 315mADC RCA 1962
6JS6/6HF5 28W 749mA@150V 11.5K@130mA Mu3 315mADC GE 1964/1963
6MJ6 30W 740mA@150V 11K@100mA Mu3.6 350mADC RCA 1973
6LG6 28W 740mA@150V 11.5K@90mA Mu3.6 315mADC GE 1967
6LQ6 30W 715mA@150V 7.5K@95mA Mu3 350mADC RCA 1967
6ME6 30W 700mA@150V 9.6@130mA Mu3.5 350mADC RCA 1971
6DQ5 24W 690mA@150V 10.5K@110mA Mu3.3 315mADC RCA 1957
6JF6/6JG6 17W 660mA@150V 10K@80mA Mu4.1 275mADC RCA 1965/1964
6KM6 20W 630mA@150V 9.5K@80mA Mu4 275mADC RCA 1965
6HD5/6HJ5 24W 630mA@150V 10K@80mA Mu4.2 280mADC Raytheon 1962/1963
6JR6/6JU6 17W 600mA@150V 7K@45mA Mu4.7 275mADC RCA 1968/1966
6JZ6/21HB5A 18W 560mA@150V 9K@46mA Mu4.8 230mADC GE 1966/1964
12HE7 10-15W 540mA@150V 8.8K@60mA Mu4.2 200mADC GE (15W if damper disabled) 1964
6CL5 25W 514mA@150V 6.5K@90mA Mu3 240mADC Sylvania 1955
6GB5/29KQ6/EL500 17W 500mA@150V 13K@100mA Mu5.1 275mADC Amperex 1961/Matsucrapa 1959/Philips 1961?
6KV6/A 20-28W 488/610mA@150V 6K@40mA Mu4 275mADC RCA (re-rated 6KM6?) 1967/1969
6HB5/6GY5/21JV6/6KE6/16KA6 18W 475mA@150V 9.1K@50mA Mu4.7 230mADC GE/GE/GE/Ray/Tung 1962/1962/1965/1965/1964
6EX6 22W 460mA@150V 7.7K@67mA Mu4.2 220mADC Raytheon (up-rated 6CD6) 1959
6CB5/A 23W 440mA@150V 8.8K@90mA Mu3.8 240mADC RCA 1954/1956
6CD6/GA 15/20W 422mA@150V 7.7K@75mA Mu3.9 200mADC RCA/GE 1949/1954
6GT5/6GJ5/6JT6/6JB6/6GW6 17.5W 380mA@150V 7.1K@70mA Mu4.4 175mADC RCA 1961/1961/1964/1962/1961
6GE5 17.5W 350mA@150V 7.3K@65mA Mu4.4 175mADC GE 1961
6GF5 9W 345mA@150V 4.7K@34mA Mu4.2 160mADC GE 1961
6JM6/6JN6/6FW5/6GC6 17.5W 340mA@150V 7.3K@70mA Mu4.4 175mADC GE 1964/1964/1960/1960
6DQ6B/6GV5 17.5W/18W 330mA@150V 7.3K@65mA Mu4.4 175mADC GE 1959/1962
6DQ6/A 18W 280mA@150V 6.6K@55mA Mu4.1 120/155mADC CBS/RCA 1955/1956
6JA5/10JA5 19W 276mA@150V 10.3K@95mA Mu5.5 110mADC GE 1971
6LU8/6LR8//6MY8 14//16W 265mA@150V 9.3K@56mA Mu6.5 75mADC Sylvania 1964/1964//1970(Toshiba)
6AV5/GA///6BQ6/GA 11W 255ma@150V 5.9K@57mA Mu4.3 110mADC CBS/GE 1949/1955 /// CBS/Syl 1949/1953
KT120 60W 221ma@150V 190mADC
KT90 50W 220mA@150V
6Y6G/GT/GA 12.5W 200mA@150V Ray 1937/KenRad 1939/Syl 1954
6550A 35W/42W 190mA@150V 11K@140mA 190mADC
6W6GT 10W 185mA@150V 8K@46mA Mu6.2 65mADC CBS 1939
KT88 35W 170mA@150V 175mADC
6CA7/EL34 25W 107mA@150V 11K@100mA Mu10.5 150mADC Philips 1952
6JC5 19W 80mA@150V 4.1K@43mA Mu7 75mADC Sylvania 1971
6L6/G/GA/GB/GC 30W 77mA@150V 4.7K@40mA Mu8 110mADC RCA 1936/Ray 1936/Syl 1943/Syl 1954/GE 1958
6HB6 10W 70mA@150V 20K@40mA Mu33 60mADC Raytheon 1961
6GK6 13.2W 65mA@150V 11.3K@48mA Mu19 65mADC CBS 1959
6BQ5/EL84 12W 65mA@150V 11.3K@48mA Mu19.5 65mADC Rogers 1956
6V6G/GT 14W 45mA@150V 4.1K@45mA Mu9.8 40mADC KenRad 1936/CBS 1939
Post by: JojoD818 on Apr 12, 2016 at 12:26 PM
It's really hard and I admire you for your interest and willingness to study vacuum tubes. ;)
One of the most common misconceptions by tube newbies and those caught up in the "audiophile" marketing hype is that certain tubes are "audio tubes" while others are "TV tubes", etc. When they were first designed, vacuum or electron tubes were created as general purpose tubes. Depending upon their unique characteristics, raw materials availability, manufacturing costs, etc., some tubes were later assigned to specific purposes. For example, a popular preamp tube - the RCA JAN CRC 12sx7gt - was originally used for radar and avionics by the US military. However and because of its unique characteristics, it later found contemporary use as an audio preamp tube. JAN (Joint-Army-Navy) tubes are particularly sought after now since quality is more consistent in light of the US military's more stringent manufacturing and technical specifications for these.
So if they were all the same then why did they made a 12SX7 variation if the 12SN7 already exist? Why not use the 12SN7 instead? Was RCA making a new variation so that it can ask for more funding from the military?
The answer in the datasheet was so it can survive greater G and a longer service life. Back then, a longer service life correlates to reliability. We all know how crazy the military can get when it comes to reliability.
Quote
Technically speaking, there is no such thing as an "audio tube" or a "TV tube", etc since electron tubes do nothing more than amplify ANY electrical signal. Later on, certain tubes were designated as transmission tubes due to their high amplification properties or as audio tubes due to low microphonics.
Most of the so-called audio tubes now are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were later designated for audio use for marketing reasons. Mostly because of high demand from audio enthusiasts from Japan, Taiwan, etc. who wanted to soften the hardness of digital music from CD, etc, vacuum tubes that used to cost mere cents and were later designated through marketing hype as "audio tubes" (such as the NOS 300B, 2A3, etc.) have skyrocketed in price due to market speculation. Once an unknown general purpose tube gains popularity as an "audio tube" and speculation again drives the price up (a Taiwanese once bought up tens of thousands of a particular unknown tube when it gained popularity as an "audio tube" among the DIY community), DIYers who are mostly seasoned electrical engineers like Tony who have been exposed to both the analog and digital side of the technology then search for other tubes to use. You'll see this phenomenon happen often on DIY audio sites.
Once a tube becomes expensive, Tony and the other DIYer's then search for other unknown but still relatively-cheap tubes which can be used for audio and then design and build customized circuits for these. At the end of the day, what truly counts in tube audio is the sound and not the marketing hype surrounding certain tubes since this only serves to fatten those in the business of milking money out of those who don't know any better.
Ah... there may not be an official designation for "audio tubes" and "TV tubes" but there exists a "classification" that most tend to overlook. Especially those who believe that all tubes were made to do the same thing.
Tube designations were given by virtue of "application", transmitting tubes were designated transmitting tubes because they were designed to be one, just like receiving tubes, mixing tubes, amplifying tubes, switching tubes, rectifying tubes (and the list goes on) does.
"Technically speaking" is a big word to use so excuse me if I would not want to apply that here now, why?
Simple.
Audio amplification operates on a certain frequency. So does FM, VHF, UHF, radar and yup, TV circuits as well. If you don't consider this in your designs then you'll have linearity problems that ultimately lead to other problems such as distortion among others.
You may not hear it (good for you), but it's there.
Finally, any "seasoned carpenter" can use a pair of pliers to drive a nail and it won't matter much... as long as the carpenter understands the difference between a plier and a hammer.
Oh well, just my two cents. Everybody have a nice day. :)
Post by: tony on Apr 13, 2016 at 02:04 PM
i know about the 12sx7 but it was not me who gave him the idea, he discovered it himself, i guess his training as a lawyer was a factor, he would like to find out more about things....i merely gave him pointers...
in fact he never ceases to amaze me at the information he is able to dig up....lawyers van be techies too...
Just like Stuart Yaniger at diyaudio, he is a chemical physicist by education, but he sure knows a lot about tubes...
Facebook is where the action is right now....there are two pages dedicated to pinoy audio enthusiasts, Audio Philippines, https://www.facebook.com/groups/audiophilippines/ and another page Audio Filipinas...https://www.facebook.com/groups/audiopilipinas/ the two are evolving and generating excitement, glad to be a part of it...
those who are strictly into solid state amps, there are many, this is just a sample...https://www.facebook.com/groups/301399146708263/
Post by: JojoD818 on Apr 13, 2016 at 04:11 PM
I built the very first Aikido Tube Preamp in the country (second in Asia) using the 12SN7, so I guess I can say I also did my homework with regards to that particular tube. Though I never said you gave him the idea, but him being a lawyer means we both share the same passion for the truth. I'm sure attorney Tetablanco knows the saying that if you repeat a lie often, people will believe it and you will come to believe it too. It's the very reason I challenge the "misconception" so others won't believe it and learn what is right.
Thanks for the FB links, DA already fulfills my techie fix. The passion and lust to build projects and the love for good music is what's keeping me from retiring in this field.
Post by: tony on Apr 13, 2016 at 05:45 PM
for example, the 12ax7 has an equivalent in the 6.3v filament type, the russian 6H2...
the 12at7 likewise have a 6.3volt filament equivalent, the 6dt8, i know this tube from the RCA
tube manual, but it is only when Edrel delivered to me 1800 tubes last year
that i saw this tube in person... it looked very much like the 6201 that i have....
in the tube world, there can be many tube types, but in reality they can be more the same...
one only needs to be patient in searching them out...
so it makes you wonder. different tube type numbers but look at them up close and they look
almost the same....
btw, the AIKIDO it seems is on the wane, i built several of those and gave them to those who
bought my bulilit preamps, and guess what, they liked the small amp better....
but of course the aikido will continue to appeal to people regardless...
Post by: tony on Apr 13, 2016 at 05:51 PM
Quote
if you repeat a lie often, people will believe it and you will come to believe it too. It's the very reason I challenge the "misconception" so others won't believe it and learn what is right.
i have since moved on from that one, people choose the lie anyway...
i am tired tilting windmill, i do not care anymore,
i just want to make tube amps....:D
Post by: JojoD818 on Apr 13, 2016 at 10:52 PM
so it makes you wonder. different tube type numbers but look at them up close and they look
almost the same....
True, but I'd still be careful even if they look alike. I once put my arms around a woman whom I honestly thought was my wife. I swear she really looked a lot like my wife looking from behind. I was lucky I only got a weird smile from her and not a slap in the face.
btw, the AIKIDO it seems is on the wane, i built several of those and gave them to those who
bought my bulilit preamps, and guess what, they liked the small amp better....
but of course the aikido will continue to appeal to people regardless...
The Aikido remains to be the mainstay preamp of my system, even after building, owning, repairing other tube preamps. Besides, not ALL Aikidos are the same. But I consider a person's choice (including mine) as a subjective matter, popularity plays no role in my enjoyment. There's a lot to choose from anyway, I guess as long as we enjoy it.
Post by: JojoD818 on Apr 13, 2016 at 10:57 PM
i have since moved on from that one, people choose the lie anyway...
i am tired tilting windmill, i do not care anymore,
i just want to make tube amps....:D
diba meron kasabihan "the only thing needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"...
though I guess it's understandable why you are isolating yourself and not caring anymore, mahirap din kasi magturo minsan...
Post by: tetablanco on Apr 14, 2016 at 01:44 AM
Well I wasn't really waiting for a reply, my intentions were merely to straighten some of the "misconceptions" and share what I believe is right. It would be prudent for other members reading the topic to read the reasons behind the who and the why with regards with vacuum tubes. It's costly to prove later that what you read and thought was right was in fact flawed.
I built the very first Aikido Tube Preamp in the country (second in Asia) using the 12SN7, so I guess I can say I also did my homework with regards to that particular tube. Though I never said you gave him the idea, but him being a lawyer means we both share the same passion for the truth. I'm sure attorney Tetablanco knows the saying that if you repeat a lie often, people will believe it and you will come to believe it too. It's the very reason I challenge the "misconception" so others won't believe it and learn what is right.
Thanks for the FB links, DA already fulfills my techie fix. The passion and lust to build projects and the love for good music is what's keeping me from retiring in this field.
Sorry just got to read this thread. Tony was correct when he said that I've been very busy between the recent Voter's Receipts case which we had argued and won before the Supreme Court, the ongoing campaign of Sen. Dick Gordon, and my other professional work.
Thanks for the points you raised. As a lawyer, I never claimed to be an expert on vacuum tubes. Whatever little knowledge I may have culled from various sources was solely due to my growing interest in this new passion of mine. Rest assured that I am not aware of having lied about any of the points I had posted. Your insinuation that I may have done so is grossly uncalled for and absolutely baseless.
In any event, my rather impassioned defense of those brave enough to adopt radical but technically-sound contrarian views about tubes may have raised some eyebrows, apparently including yours. My simple point is that no one should simply dismiss another's personal and technical views, most especially on the basis of ill-conceived notions and marketing hype surrounding certain tubes. Ever since Tony had taught me to judge a tube on the basis of my own ears and not on sheer herd mentality, I consider myself truly fortunate for having Tony as my first and foremost Sensei on tubes.
Post by: tony on Apr 14, 2016 at 06:39 AM
there are members here who call me and ask me about things, "me mga bumubulong daw sa kanila"
so i give the technical explanations and then ask him, you decide....after a while he calls me back
and tell me he is thankful he talked to me, he saved a lot of money......;)
if you recall, that like a lawyer, you tried to grill me asking me which amplifiers i made is the best sounding...;)
now i can say, if an amp i made is not to my liking, i tear it down and start over again...
i am proud to say, i do not look at people coming to me as an opportunity to make money,
money has never been a motivation for me, i am a pensioner and i have enough
so money is no issue to me....
this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby...
lastly, i would like to congratulate you and the good senator Richard Gordon for the voter receipt affirmation by the SC....in a country where compliance to the laws seems almost optional to borrow Duterte, that decision by the SC gives us hope.....
Post by: at_sunset_blvd on Apr 14, 2016 at 07:01 AM
Because i love solid state. It rocks!!!!
Rock ON! 8)
Post by: tetablanco on Apr 14, 2016 at 07:46 AM
i am honored tetablanco......after all, who am i to tell you how you should enjoy your hobby...?
there are members here who call me and ask me about things, "me mga bumubulong daw sa kanila"
so i give the technical explanations and then ask him, you decide....after a while he calls me back
and tell me he is thankful he talked to me, he saved a lot of money......;)
if you recall, that like a lawyer, you tried to grill me asking me which amplifiers i made is the best sounding...;)
now i can say, if an amp i made is not to my liking, i tear it down and start over again...
i am proud to say, i do not look at people coming to me as an opportunity to make money,
money has never been a motivation for me, i am a pensioner and i have enough
so money is no issue to me....
this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby...
lastly, i would like to congratulate you and the good senator Richard Gordon for the voter receipt affirmation by the SC....in a country where compliance to the laws seems almost optional to borrow Duterte, that decision by the SC gives us hope.....
Thank you too Tony for generously giving your time and effort to mentor me and countless others on tubes. As for the Voter Receipts case, all credit goes to the good Senator for his masterful arguments before the Supreme Court and his untiring defense of voter rights.
Post by: dana on Apr 14, 2016 at 09:21 AM
masterfully said papaT :)
Post by: tony on Apr 14, 2016 at 09:29 AM
Thank you too Tony for generously giving your time and effort to mentor me and countless others on tubes. As for the Voter Receipts case, all credit goes to the good Senator for his masterful arguments before the Supreme Court and his untiring defense of voter rights.
hindi naman sa pagyayabang, i have assisted at least 7 persons make their own tube amps, some here and the others in other forums...
wrt making their own power traffos, i have assisted countless persons here, and at least 4 persons from india and one in texas....
i have helped two people, a namesake from Hong Kong and another pinoy( a manager working for Vishay) build their own super leach amps...
my reasoning is that if i can help them and in the process they get another source of income, then my efforts were not in vain....
so there is really no reason for people to question my motives.....
if they don't like me for whatever reason, that is not my problem, if they ask for information from me
i will give it to them....simple as that...
enough of this rant....:D
Post by: tony on Apr 14, 2016 at 09:30 AM
"this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby..."
masterfully said papaT :)
glad you got it....thanks Don...;)
Post by: tony on Apr 14, 2016 at 09:32 AM
Rock ON! 8)
indeed.....whatever floats your boat is probably the best option for you...
Post by: JojoD818 on Apr 14, 2016 at 04:32 PM
Sorry just got to read this thread. Tony was correct when he said that I've been very busy between the recent Voter's Receipts case which we had argued and won before the Supreme Court, the ongoing campaign of Sen. Dick Gordon, and my other professional work.
Thanks for the points you raised. As a lawyer, I never claimed to be an expert on vacuum tubes. Whatever little knowledge I may have culled from various sources was solely due to my growing interest in this new passion of mine. Rest assured that I am not aware of having lied about any of the points I had posted. Your insinuation that I may have done so is grossly uncalled for and absolutely baseless.
I deeply regret the way you understand my posts, obviously in bad taste. I never claimed anything about you being an expert, I admit that my only fault was to merely point out some points that you already have concluded. I never said you lied, I was comparing a lie to a post in the internet, read it many times and it becomes the truth even if it's not. It was never a personal remark. I apologize if it came out as such.
Quote
In any event, my rather impassioned defense of those brave enough to adopt radical but technically-sound contrarian views about tubes may have raised some eyebrows, apparently including yours. My simple point is that no one should simply dismiss another's personal and technical views, most especially on the basis of ill-conceived notions and marketing hype surrounding certain tubes. Ever since Tony had taught me to judge a tube on the basis of my own ears and not on sheer herd mentality, I consider myself truly fortunate for having Tony as my first and foremost Sensei on tubes.
Rest assured that my eyebrows have nothing to do with it, though I regret you missed the real point that I was trying to raise, probably due to your rather "impassioned defense" of those brave souls.
Radical and technically sound. Using a pair of pliers to drive a nail may be thought of as radical, but a hammer would be more technically sound don't you think? If you still miss the point then please never mind that.
Anyway, since you mentioned your very busy schedule, I would refrain from discussing any further so as not to take anymore of your precious time. I leave you in peace and bid you good luck in whatever future tube endeavors you'll have.
Post by: tetablanco on Apr 14, 2016 at 05:32 PM
I deeply regret the way you understand my posts, obviously in bad taste. I never claimed anything about you being an expert, I admit that my only fault was to merely point out some points that you already have concluded. I never said you lied, I was comparing a lie to a post in the internet, read it many times and it becomes the truth even if it's not. It was never a personal remark. I apologize if it came out as such.
Rest assured that my eyebrows have nothing to do with it, though I regret you missed the real point that I was trying to raise, probably due to your rather "impassioned defense" of those brave souls.
Radical and technically sound. Using a pair of pliers to drive a nail may be thought of as radical, but a hammer would be more technically sound don't you think? If you still miss the point then please never mind that.
Anyway, since you mentioned your very busy schedule, I would refrain from discussing any further so as not to take anymore of your precious time. I leave you in peace and bid you good luck in whatever future tube endeavors you'll have.
Apology accepted.
Post by: tony on Apr 14, 2016 at 06:26 PM
it has been a long time since i saw you build one, you will surely like it...;)
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Apr 14, 2016 at 06:47 PM
Post by: at_sunset_blvd on Apr 14, 2016 at 08:27 PM
indeed.....whatever floats your boat is probably the best option for you...
To be honest Master Tony, a little bit of both keeps me SANE :)
Post by: tony on Apr 15, 2016 at 07:22 AM
To be honest Master Tony, a little bit of both keeps me SANE :)
that is fair...i would normally suggest that to those who seek my advice,
a SET, a push-pull tube amps, and solid state amps.....
the other option is a tube preamp paired with a solid state power amp....
jojod's gainclone baby G's and his babyT is one such fine example....
you can have both tubes and solid state to make good music by...
Post by: tony on Apr 15, 2016 at 06:22 PM
Re: Tube amplifier learning while building, all you want to know
http://www.elab.ph/forum/index.php?topic=34991.new#new
Post by: tony on Apr 18, 2016 at 08:19 AM
Quote
unsolicited advice: do not take what is told you by anyone, not even me, hook line and sinker....trust only your ears......some personalities develop a following almost to a culthood, and members tend to believe even if they have no idea, simply that they like the person.....they tend to flock together and will gang up on anyone who happens to have a contrary view, i will consider this to be unfortunate as these folks will never know what they missed by fencing themselves in around a master....so just continue enjoying the music folks...
Quote
i value comments from those who hear my amps, and since it is me who made the amp, i know what went into the amp and so i value criticism from end users, they are priceless gifts to me...the lessons learned gives me more directions in my builds...i have a very good idea as to what works or not.....
Post by: jerrylodi on Apr 18, 2016 at 09:13 AM
" no tubes " ;D
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j450/jerryidol/Mobile%20Uploads/20160416_110638_zpsshti7bry.jpg)
Post by: dana on Apr 18, 2016 at 10:21 AM
btw, the rack is pine material, palo china, tama ba?
like na like ng anay yan. treated po ba, what treatment did u use kung meron man?
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Apr 18, 2016 at 10:26 AM
Post by: remington on Apr 18, 2016 at 10:31 AM
@jerryidol, I will wait for you to post the "mayaman" tube set-up that you use for Vocals, Jazz, Acoustic. You, Me, Remington, and those who have visited your place know who made the AMP ;) Ha ha ha!
i post na yan hehehe!!!
Post by: tetablanco on Apr 18, 2016 at 01:52 PM
posted this in Audio Pilipinas in facebook....
Just keep on helping and educating others like me, Tony. There will always be people who want to be king of their own small domain.
Post by: tony on Apr 18, 2016 at 01:57 PM
Just keep on helping and educating others like me, Tony. There will always be people who want to be king of their own small domain.
yes Teta, that is the reason for my sticking around......there are people that appreciates me for my posts, and it is for them that i here for.......i am here for those that can use my creations...
btw, i am starting with a new 5894 set and another 12SX7 line amp......
Mandy Marino's OTL is in the works too...
Post by: tetablanco on Apr 18, 2016 at 02:02 PM
yes Teta, that is the reason for my sticking around......there are people that appreciates me for my posts, and it is for them that i here for.......i am here for those that can use my creations...
btw, i am starting with a new 5894 set and another 12SX7 line amp......
Mandy Marino's OTL is in the works too...
Can't wait to hear your newest babies, Tony. Thanks again. :)
Post by: jerrylodi on Apr 18, 2016 at 04:38 PM
niceness. pang harabas, rakrakan.yes sir dana, it's palo china, no treatment sir, iniiwasan ko lang mabasa, I think mukhang matibay naman, thanks sir.
btw, the rack is pine material, palo china, tama ba?
like na like ng anay yan. treated po ba, what treatment did u use kung meron man?
@jerryidol, I will wait for you to post the "mayaman" tube set-up that you use for Vocals, Jazz, Acoustic. You, Me, Remington, and those who have visited your place know who made the AMP ;) Ha ha ha!hahaha, dared mp5 & jd labs baby t lng boss yung nadinig nyo ni sir remington, ;) thanks boss :)
Post by: tony on Apr 18, 2016 at 05:25 PM
Quote
dared mp5
yan lang ulam na.... >:D
Post by: jerrylodi on Apr 18, 2016 at 08:32 PM
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Apr 18, 2016 at 08:33 PM
Gears I see:
1) Technics SL-1200 MK2 with M-447 + AT95(reserved)
2) Rega Apollo Top Loading CD Player
3) Cyrus MK-II AMP used as Phono Stage
4) Yamaha AS-500
5) Polk LSi9 - Mint
Take note, this is only Jerryidol's "Super budget meal" set-up.
Speaker palang buong system ko na.
Dedicated rock set-up(super budget meal) >:D
" no tubes " ;D
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j450/jerryidol/Mobile%20Uploads/20160416_110638_zpsshti7bry.jpg)
Post by: tony on Apr 19, 2016 at 07:15 AM
Yes sir tony, enjoy ko muna po stock ;) ty sir
had a chance to service one, just like the Sakura AV200, this amp also uses tubes as buffers,
but the difference is, this Dared used a gainclone amp while the Sakura used discrete trannies in the power
output stage...both are good sounding, but the Dared5 gets my vote...
Post by: jerrylodi on Apr 19, 2016 at 09:00 AM
but the difference is, this Dared used a gainclone amp while the Sakura used discrete trannies in the power
output stage...bot are good sounding, but the Dared5 gets my vote...
[/quote]malambing kasi sir tony
Take note, this is only Jerryidol's "Super budget meal" set-up.
Speaker palang buong system ko na.
[/quote]hahaha, bka di sila maniwala boss, super humble tlga si boss jojo
Post by: tony on Apr 19, 2016 at 11:34 AM
Post by: F. Dandy on Apr 27, 2016 at 01:31 PM
I am not much into tube, i am more on present day solution and processing power, but for curiosity, I got sucked in into tube amplifier (driven by curiosity and when you feel tired of SS solution) and my biggest problem (personally) is :
the power consumption
as a supporter for the low power consumption or that called Full eco compliant product/project.
well, now a days, there are design of Tube preamplifier which makes use of lower voltage based on voltage trippler, and indeed reduced the power consumption, but this is only for tube preamplifier and not for tube amplifier.
There is a question as well that, makes use of 35Vdc instead of 300Vdc makes the sound different? and remains a question, we have a group buy in other forum (elab.ph), for 115 pcs of this tube preamplifier, 45 goes to hobbyist, the rest is for school, and looks like that, what the user expect is that, the tube can make the sound better, like a miracle :D :D :D, and ended up in long explaining specially to the school :D :D :D :D, that was pain!
as suggest by others is it to have a hybrid solution, sir Tony mentioned
1. Buffer / pre amplifier.... Tube preamplifier
2. amplifier ................... class A or Class AB
There were also request to have a Power Management incorporated into the Tube amp, so that, it will
1. turn off the tube after certain time (specially when you use tube amp during your sleep)
2. will manage to tell the user when to replace the tube, etc. (and probably tell the user to contact who ????? ;D ;D)
As for the cost reason,
with the deployment of Chinese tube manufacturer & continuous production, tube prices gone down after 14 years compared to the price in 2002, the good thing is that, several guys offer a DIY kit already.
I have a tube preampfifer and Tube Amplifier in my friend in Manila, you may contact Rochie to have a test in his listening room, this is a DIY one. There was a plan for a group buy........ but scared of the scenario that, Group buyers think that Tube amplifier is like a "mana machine"
But the reality, is that,
Tube are coming back. In the april HK / Shenzhen and Guangzhuo show, i was there..... and many audio gadgets are on board with tube, even Samsung DVD, they put a tube and show those glowing tube, i see also TEAC.
What is painful is that, some local Chinese manufacturer designed the amplifier looks like TUBE, with cute tube glowing light but the processing is IC or class AB/D amplifier.
Post by: tony on Apr 27, 2016 at 06:07 PM
my 5894 set pulls in 100 watts on an output of a mere 5 watts per channel...
Post by: F. Dandy on Apr 28, 2016 at 06:16 PM
Yes Sir, if the mindset is on power consumption like me who is a supporter of Fulleco implementation, I may not want it. But, there is other solution, like you proposed
to have tube in ourr music gadget, let see my diy Tube preamplifier driving SS amplifier
(http://1diycenter.com/1diyDATA/diycasing8.jpg)
(http://1diycenter.com/1diyDATA/diysetup.jpg)
(its a diy setup in my bench)
Post by: rascal101 on Jun 07, 2016 at 11:40 AM
https://www.inverse.com/article/16574-future-phones-may-use-vacuum-tube-chips-as-silicon-hits-moore-s-law-extremes
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 11, 2016 at 04:20 PM
Maybe now is a good time to start to get into tubes ...
oh yeah! My friends ask me to "source" a
1. tube preamplifier with multi input
2. tube amplifier
and got lucky to find one....... do you want it too? If yes, check with Rochie
Or, someone like it, let's see a group buy (window of oppurtunity is 1 week June 13 to June 17, before shipment to Manila).
Better check with Rochie for an audition in his home studio :)
Post by: rascal101 on Jun 11, 2016 at 04:42 PM
Bili na lang ako sa taobao o Huaqiang Bei tapos patulong sa pag mod o pag intindi para kahit paano matutunan ko rin ang tubo.
Nakakaenganyo iyung tubo sa may pulang PCB. Ganda siguro tumunog ng set-up niyo.
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 13, 2016 at 09:14 AM
Nasa Zhuhai, China ako Sir kaya medyo mahirap sa akin siguro sumama sa inyo sa pagbili. Dito sa taobao o sa may Huaqiang Bei kami namimili ng mga gamit pang audio electronics. Marami rami na rin mga nagbebenta ng tube amplifier tsaka madali rin bumili ng mga tubo lalo sa Huaqiang Bei.
Bili na lang ako sa taobao o Huaqiang Bei tapos patulong sa pag mod o pag intindi para kahit paano matutunan ko rin ang tubo.
Nakakaenganyo iyung tubo sa may pulang PCB. Ganda siguro tumunog ng set-up niyo.
Hi - good to know you have leverage to find electronics stuff in one of biggest electronics market in Asia, I hope its genuine.
Hey! Are you one of the guys in Flextronics zhuhai? Nice place, malapit kayo sa "gong bei" dami daw nga long legs doon and russian stuff :) :) :)
On topic,
Here is what it looks like --- the Tube acquired by my friend for his Tube adventure
Left : Tube Amplifier
Right : Tube Pre-amplifier
(http://i65.tinypic.com/316afkl.jpg)
With lights :
(http://i67.tinypic.com/fdek9v.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/351h4c5.jpg)
The pre-amplifier come with 4 inputs and volume control.
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 13, 2016 at 09:29 AM
(http://i66.tinypic.com/f9dorc.jpg)
Player & gadgets beside the tube amp
Top : FX audio Bluetooth interface (BT core 4.0)
Mid : Fx audio DA
bottom : TEAC player
(http://i65.tinypic.com/hu4y83.jpg)
oh yeah! My friends ask me to "source" a
1. tube preamplifier with multi input
2. tube amplifier
and got lucky to find one....... do you want it too? If yes, check with Rochie
Or, someone like it, let's see a group buy (window of oppurtunity is 1 week June 13 to June 17, before shipment to Manila).
Better check with Rochie for an audition in his home studio :)
There Tube Amp is assembled ex-factory, but they said, it can be DIY, with components like this
(http://i67.tinypic.com/29ojyir.jpg)
Unfortunately, di masyado magaling ang nga insik sa factory na iyon sa doumentation, at hindi detail and assembly procedure. But, anyone who want challenge - this is an adventure.
Post by: tony on Jun 13, 2016 at 12:57 PM
Left : Tube Amplifier
Right : Tube Pre-amplifier
(http://i65.tinypic.com/316afkl.jpg)
With lights :
(http://i67.tinypic.com/fdek9v.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/351h4c5.jpg)
The pre-amplifier come with 4 inputs and volume control.
looks like Silicon Ray's kits....i saw a local shop Daddy's Audio selling the preamp for about 22k..
the preamp which uses the 6au6 and the 6V6 tubes are triode wired clone of the Marantz 7 topology...
easily the most cloned preamp from china, the Marantz 7 has a very big following....
Post by: rascal101 on Jun 13, 2016 at 01:11 PM
Paano niyo po nalaman ang Gongbei? Palagay ko madalas kayo sa may Bar Street tsaka sa ... hehehe
Tanaw ko Gongbei at Macau dito sa apartment. Mga 15 minutong lakaran ang Gongbei. Dami ako nakikitang Pinay pumapasyal sa Gongbei galing Macau.
Post by: rochie on Jun 14, 2016 at 11:12 AM
looks like Silicon Ray's kits....i saw a local shop Daddy's Audio selling the preamp for about 22k..
the preamp which uses the 6au6 and the 6V6 tubes are triode wired clone of the Marantz 7 topology...
easily the most cloned preamp from china, the Marantz 7 has a very big following....
we're trying to get a kit or an assembled one so that those who are hesitant to go tube can try it w/o selling their kidney :D :D :D :D. looks like a good project too to learn about tubes.
Post by: fantom_mayonaise on Jun 14, 2016 at 11:52 AM
we're trying to get a kit or an assembled one so that those who are hesitant to go tube can try it w/o selling their kidney :D :D :D :D. looks like a good project too to learn about tubes.
Hey, I'm interested in a kidney, blood type O. :D
sama ako isang preamp... Let's make a new thread na rin if its okay with you guys
Post by: tony on Jun 14, 2016 at 12:03 PM
we're trying to get a kit or an assembled one so that those who are hesitant to go tube can try it w/o selling their kidney :D :D :D :D. looks like a good project too to learn about tubes.
Hey, I'm interested in a kidney, blood type O. :D
sama ako isang preamp... Let's make a new thread na rin if its okay with you guys
sige sali ako, technical support.....
Post by: rochie on Jun 14, 2016 at 02:02 PM
Post by: CoolTOYZPH on Jun 14, 2016 at 02:29 PM
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 19, 2016 at 03:34 AM
Quote from: =topic=3912.msg2405254#msg2405254 date=1465633202
Or, someone like it, let's see a group buy (window of oppurtunity is 1 week June 13 to June 17, before shipment to Manila).
Better check with Rochie for an audition in his home studio :)
Time is up !!!!
we're trying to get a kit or an assembled one so that those who are hesitant to go tube can try it w/o selling their kidney :D :D :D :D. looks like a good project too to learn about tubes.
Thanks Rochie ------ I placed the order for those interested guys, cheers!!!! please detox more for a healthier kidney :D :D
Atleast, iyong nga guys na mag de de-tubo soon --- na break na nila ang "biggest reason why they won't go into tubes" mainly driven by high "cost"
..
..
..
@rascal
Paano niyo po nalaman ang Gongbei? Palagay ko madalas kayo sa may Bar Street tsaka sa ... hehehe
Dami ako nakikitang Pinay pumapasyal sa Gongbei galing Macau.
may nga authentic "Russian tubes" kasi diyan
diyan ako namamalengke dati ;D ;D ;D pinay na ba namamasyal diyan looking for "tube"
..
..
.
Let's keep this thread rolling to get to know the biggest Hinder of not having a tube, and the latest countermeasures to have a Tube in your collection of Audio stuff,
Happy Fathers Day to all
Post by: TinkerTailor on Jun 19, 2016 at 05:50 PM
Post by: tony on Jun 19, 2016 at 06:06 PM
I like the turn this thread took...
Quote
At least, iyong nga guys na mag de de-tubo soon --- na break na nila ang "biggest reason why they won't go into tubes" mainly driven by high "cost"......
yes, there is indeed a way to go tubes at a low price.......
tv tubes are all around us, very cheap and plentiful,
not hyped and no myths build around them....
Quote
may nga authentic "Russian tubes" kasi diyan
diyan ako namamalengke dati ;D ;D ;D pinay na ba namamasyal diyan looking for "tube"
what is wrong with out "local" tubes? , walk along the sidewalks of avenida and you can pick up a lot of those... >:D
Post by: rascal101 on Jun 19, 2016 at 07:09 PM
@rascal
may nga authentic "Russian tubes" kasi diyan
diyan ako namamalengke dati ;D ;D ;D pinay na ba namamasyal diyan looking for "tube"
Happy Fathers Day to all
Happy Fathers Day to all!!!
... kung magagawi kayo dito sa Zhuhai puwede kayong pumasyal sa Jida Electronic City. Hindi kasing laki ng Huaqiang Bei pero puwede na rin. Kumpleto sa iba't ibang pyesa, tubo, kaha, PCB (puwede kayo pagawa kahit double sided), test instruments ...
Post by: rascal101 on Jun 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/rascal101/jida_electronic_city_zpsrswzsfw5.png) (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/rascal101/media/jida_electronic_city_zpsrswzsfw5.png.html)
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 24, 2016 at 11:22 AM
What is wrong with out "local" tubes? , walk along the sidewalks of avenida and you can pick up a lot of those... >:D
Sir, nothing wrong
was joking with rascal on...... ;D ;D ;D
may nga authentic "Russian tubes" kasi diyan
diyan ako namamalengke dati ;D ;D ;D pinay na ba namamasyal diyan looking for "tube"
rascal101 know much 'gongbei,
nga naglalakad na "russian tube", mahahaba hita with super tiny skirt
Good news guys...............!!!!! I received all the DIY Kit preamplifier and amplifier Tube for this "quick group buy". 3 weeks and will be in Manila, Thanks Rochie
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 24, 2016 at 11:56 AM
... kung magagawi kayo dito sa Zhuhai puwede kayong pumasyal sa Jida Electronic City. Hindi kasing laki ng Huaqiang Bei pero puwede na rin. Kumpleto sa iba't ibang pyesa, tubo, kaha, PCB (puwede kayo pagawa kahit double sided), test instruments ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=huang+qiang+bei&espv=2&biw=1025&bih=543&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC4tqj37_NAhWDpJQKHTPiAGgQ_AUICCgD
i like in gongbei, for sure!
Hua Qiang Bei Electronics store at the heart of Shenzhen probably the biggest Electronic store in the world located in one place. I used to have my personal office there ;D ;D ;D. you may not know but I provide manufacturing solution to several companies "before" ---- well still supplying to SS R&D, and also for Diy'ers specially in the field of Audio components/speakers/etc, anything about audio, in elab.ph, we have several group buy for years . I help as well University students needs for PCB, components, etc.. Helping others while I have capability is a nice thing to do!
with the advent of online store (aliexpress, made-in-china, etc..) i need to move on to my favorite City of Pines in Baguio City, and keep traveling from time to time.
How I wish, we have a replica of HuaQiang Bei here in Phils beter than Raon, providing leverage on hardware, equipment, Test Instrument and services (prototyping , logistics, etc) which will drive the electronics industry to "boom", followed and driven by software... Most of the complain is that --- we have enough and good idea, but how to turn that idea into reality is a question, if there is no hardware.
a flash back.....!
we still have good guys out there in China who can help us for what we need, ;D ;D ;D, so let's enjoy the hobby ............. and break the barrier "biggest reason why you won't go tubes?"
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 29, 2016 at 08:31 PM
Quote from: link=topic=3912.msg2409817#msg2409817 date=1466738573
Good news guys...............!!!!! I received all the DIY Kit preamplifier and amplifier Tube for this "quick group buy". 3 weeks and will be in Manila, Thanks Rochie
Let's see
Tube Pre-amplifier
(http://i64.tinypic.com/nlbl0m.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/wuozdg.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/200g3yh.jpg)
Tubes are hidden inside the solid cylinder tube - protect from damage
(http://i65.tinypic.com/33za8b4.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/dbk5mb.jpg)
The final appearance should b like this :
(http://i65.tinypic.com/351h4c5.jpg)
But.... since this is a diy, you can do power coating on the aluminum case with your favorite color, black, blue, red or yellow, as you wish!!!
Post by: F. Dandy on Jun 29, 2016 at 09:01 PM
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2ng6d5s.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/mv1dgp.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/219t6b6.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/315270h.jpg)
The tubes are hidden inside the cylider tube to protect them from damage during the Transport
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2ufxdg5.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2w4woqu.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2el7ey0.jpg)
The final outcome when assembled well (and funtioning well :D :D) will be :
(http://i67.tinypic.com/fdek9v.jpg)
..
..
no hidden secret on tube Amp. as simple (complicated) as that ;D
Post by: markcrenz on Jun 30, 2016 at 10:32 AM
Post by: rascal101 on Jun 30, 2016 at 11:52 AM
Wow!