Author Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes? (Read 69666 times)

arnoldc · « **Reply #150 on:** Jun 25, 2003 at 10:48 AM »

garp, that's the standby switch. there will be two switches, one main and one standby.

the main switch powers on the system but only the filament/heaters get the initial power. then after 15 seconds, you turn on the standby that give the tubes the B+

the purpose of this is to prolong the life of the tubes by preventing in-rush current and voltage to a "cold" tube.

rascal101 · « **Reply #151 on:** Dec 05, 2005 at 03:31 PM »

I find it interesting that one should argue about tubes are sonically better than solid state. It would be an endless debate as to what is really right. Is pleasant hearing better than clean sounding etc etc? As such, let us just look which technology is more prevalent - tubes or solid state? What technology do we see today - tubes or solid state? What are typical electronic appliances made of - tubes or solid state?

For this reasons, I am more inclined to go with the prevalent technology. A floating ship to my mind is better than barely floating one.

The demise of one technology does not necessarily mean that it is bad or has gone for the worse, it has just been superseded by something that is more practical for todays listeners.

Rascal101

bumblebee · « **Reply #152 on:** Dec 06, 2005 at 08:28 AM »

Tubes are capable of Hi-Fi. Probably not as "high" as SS can go, but still very high. And they can sound more pleasant. That's why a lot of people love them.

Abad Santos 7 · « **Reply #153 on:** Dec 06, 2005 at 04:47 PM »

A good SS amp equipped with modern technology will probably makes one
not to go with tubes....

But I bet you....The topic question is very hard to answer once you hear
Norah Jones Sings with great difference....

Cheers.

ATJr. · « **Reply #154 on:** Dec 06, 2005 at 04:51 PM »

Quote

Feedback is especially important for SS as thermal runaway can be a huge problem (just imagine the look i a guy's face who recently got his krell toasted, I have seen one). Negative feedback is needed to put SS devices in steady state, sonic consequence is decay and attack. Now, that sound is heavily colorated (even darth hansen will not disagree with this) as negative feedback is a deliberate reintroduction of off phase controlled distortion in the earlier driver stages of an amp to bring the SS operating properties within a predetermined power/thermal ratio envelope.

i can not make heads or tails out of this, thermal runaway has nothing to do with negative feedback!
thermal runaway is a function of operating point, how the output transistors are biased, and the heatsinking quality of the amp.

if the output transistors are operated at or beyond their SOA limits, safe operating area, (or region), thermal runaway is sure to follow, how is this?

even though an ss device is rated at 150watts and 15 amps with a Vceo of 150volts, it does not mean that you can operate them at high volts and currents simultaneously. because secondary breakdown can occur at lower Vceo and Ic than the specs for the transistor would imply.

a malfunction in the bias circuitry of the Krell amp was responsible for its getting fried.

ATJr. · « **Reply #155 on:** Dec 06, 2005 at 05:02 PM »

i can accept that tubes are more musical sounding than ss amps

but there are other things to consider:

1. cost, not everybody can affor them.
2. power comsumption, a stereo 35 watts per channel amp will comsume around 300watts power. whereas an ss amp rated at 200 watts per channel will only consume about 100watts even if you play them at very high volumes.
3. uncerteinty of tube availability in future, nobody is making them in volumes, production runs may only be in the tens of thousands. unlike in the late 60's when you can buy JAN tube 12ax7 for a peso each.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #156 on:** Dec 06, 2005 at 05:38 PM »

It's not enough to just have any tube amp. I think it's important to know that just as there are lousy and excellent SS amps, there are also lousy and excellent tube amps. There are well designed SS amps as there are Tubes. You just have to learn to distinguish.

BTW, Single Ended Triodes stand on a class of their own, their circuit simplicity has no SS counterpart. For me, if there's any tube gear worth owning and listening, it's SETs.

So why don't I go tubes? I'm sure I'd fall in love with a good SET, with all that even-ordered harmonics coloring the sound to make then euphonic. But I guess I am more into high fidelity than euphony.

rascal101 · « **Reply #157 on:** Dec 06, 2005 at 06:23 PM »

Quote from: 2ny on Dec 06, 2005 at 05:02 PM

i can accept that tubes are more musical sounding than ss amps but there are other things to consider:

1. cost, not everybody can affor them.
2. power comsumption, a stereo 35 watts per channel amp will comsume around 300watts power. whereas an ss amp rated at 200 watts per channel will only consume about 100watts even if you play them at very high volumes.
3. uncerteinty of tube availability in future, nobody is making them in volumes, production runs may only be in the tens of thousands. unlike in the late 60's when you can buy JAN tube 12ax7 for a peso each.

Musical sounding to my mind is hard to define because when asked on the two different camps - SS and tubes each one will tell you a different story. Also, this is a debate I would rather not indulge into. But there are a few facts that are undeniable:

1. technology is no longer on the side of vacuum tubes
2. humans today (a great majority) want things that are portable and practical

Rascal101

JojoD818 · « **Reply #158 on:** Dec 07, 2005 at 10:21 PM »

The biggest reason why I won't go tubes is if I'll use it in a party. I will not go tubes for everyday background listening as 2ny said, they consume a lot of "meralco" power.

As rascal said, amps in small packages are more preffered today. The smaller the better nowadays. Though I have my doubts on technology being not in the side of tubes, is technology today only on the side of ss? Why?

But for an evening of intimate personal listening, I'll only go for tubes.

s2kov · « **Reply #159 on:** Dec 07, 2005 at 10:28 PM »

i second to that!

Quote from: av_phile1 on Dec 06, 2005 at 05:38 PM

BTW, Single Ended Triodes stand on a class of their own, their circuit simplicity has no SS counterpart. For me, if there's any tube gear worth owning and listening, it's SETs.

ATJr. · « **Reply #160 on:** Dec 08, 2005 at 06:34 AM »

Quote

is technology today only on the side of ss? Why?

very easily! no new tubes are being designed, investement in this technology is minimal, only third world countries are producing them because of cheap labor. new production tubes are merely continuations of past designs and very limited in quantity.

solid state technology is still on the rise, n0w we have the 90nanometer ic technology! semicinductors are being shipped in millions of quatity.

bumblebee · « **Reply #161 on:** Dec 08, 2005 at 08:08 AM »

I just remembered. The first computers used tubes. You can just imagine how big they were. And how hot they can get.

ATJr. · « **Reply #162 on:** Dec 08, 2005 at 07:40 PM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Dec 08, 2005 at 08:08 AM

I just remembered. The first computers used tubes. You can just imagine how big they were. And how hot they can get.

yes!

the power it required then can provide for a small town!

and they kept changing tubes because of frequent brakdowns! it was easy to spot them then, the tubes with bugs attached to them were sure for raplacements, tha was where the term "bugs" started.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #163 on:** Dec 09, 2005 at 12:36 AM »

Quote from: 2ny on Dec 08, 2005 at 06:34 AM

very easily! no new tubes are being designed, investement in this technology is minimal, only third world countries are producing them because of cheap labor. new production tubes are merely continuations of past designs and very limited in quantity.

solid state technology is still on the rise, n0w we have the 90nanometer ic technology! semicinductors are being shipped in millions of quatity.

so then maybe the biggest reason why you won't go tubes is because one has to spend a lot of money to have one. ss tech is really cheaper by the minute, i built a digital amp kit the size of a disposable lighter and it sounds very good.

btw, I read about 90nm process in a tech note emailed from a friend in Intel. paves the way to much larger scale computing... wow indeed! new ss gadgets next year maybe? oh well, that's OT.

we only need a small reason to go tubes, and a big one to not.

eXg · « **Reply #164 on:** Dec 09, 2005 at 07:29 AM »

maybe i don't have a "reason" coz am a "tube-user" but what i hate most about it is the weight/size of the amps. they're so bulky that tweaking/playing with them takes extra effort

. second would be, humming. even branded ones exhibit some hum but of course, one has to press his ear closer to the speaker to notice

On cost, i believe there lot of other cheaper tubes (and parts) that can be made to sound good if designed properly and matched with the rest of the gear. (and i wish i have the skill to prove it further

.) even the most expensive part can sound bad if not used properly. for me cost of a component is heavily influenced by what others' use and say (more than its sonic value, per se).

eXg · « **Reply #165 on:** Dec 09, 2005 at 08:14 AM »

Quote from: av_phile1 on Dec 06, 2005 at 05:38 PM

It's not enough to just have any tube amp. I think it's important to know that just as there are lousy and excellent SS amps, there are also lousy and excellent tube amps. There are well designed SS amps as there are Tubes. You just have to learn to distinguish.

BTW, Single Ended Triodes stand on a class of their own, their circuit simplicity has no SS counterpart. For me, if there's any tube gear worth owning and listening, it's SETs.

So why don't I go tubes? I'm sure I'd fall in love with a good SET, with all that even-ordered harmonics coloring the sound to make then euphonic. But I guess I am more into high fidelity than euphony.

... and some more...

http://usuarios.uninet.com.br/~edelima/REASONS.htm

ATJr. · « **Reply #166 on:** Dec 09, 2005 at 03:18 PM »

nice article Exg......

jerix · « **Reply #167 on:** Dec 13, 2005 at 04:18 PM »

got no extra moolah to put up a decent setup and maintain the same

rascal101 · « **Reply #168 on:** Dec 13, 2005 at 04:32 PM »

Quote from: eXg on Dec 09, 2005 at 07:29 AM

maybe i don't have a "reason" coz am a "tube-user" but what i hate most about it is the weight/size of the amps. they're so bulky that tweaking/playing with them takes extra effort . second would be, humming. even branded ones exhibit some hum but of course, one has to press his ear closer to the speaker to notice

On cost, i believe there lot of other cheaper tubes (and parts) that can be made to sound good if designed properly and matched with the rest of the gear. (and i wish i have the skill to prove it further .) even the most expensive part can sound bad if not used properly. for me cost of a component is heavily influenced by what others' use and say (more than its sonic value, per se).

Difficult to remove offset voltage in amplifiers whether SS or tubes. You need good layout and need to characterize performance at high ambient temperatures on the amplifying devices. For SS, a coupling or DC blocking cap eliminates this problem.

brandon · « **Reply #169 on:** Jan 20, 2006 at 11:54 AM »

Question: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?

Answer: What tubes can do, solid-state can do better at lower cost
and greater convenience!

You want the warm 'tubey' sound? Solid-state can duplicate that and
even exceed that with better bass performance. Do a search on
Yahoo! or Google. Type 'tube vs solid-state' as keyword and you should
get the idea that solid-state is not necessarily 'shrill', 'bright' and 'clinical'
sounding if not driven to 'clipping'.

ATJr. · « **Reply #170 on:** Jan 20, 2006 at 05:48 PM »

it really boils down to choice!

MAtZTER · « **Reply #171 on:** Jan 20, 2006 at 06:07 PM »

I hardly get an hour to enjoy listening to audio before my wife starts to call me to go to sleep. Ergo, I wont have time to warm up a tube amp.

Funds too of course.

rascal101 · « **Reply #172 on:** Jan 20, 2006 at 06:08 PM »

Choice indeed!

rascal101 · « **Reply #173 on:** Jan 20, 2006 at 06:14 PM »

Quote from: brandon on Jan 20, 2006 at 11:54 AM

Question: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?

Answer: What tubes can do, solid-state can do better at lower cost
and greater convenience!

You want the warm 'tubey' sound? Solid-state can duplicate that and
even exceed that with better bass performance. Do a search on
Yahoo! or Google. Type 'tube vs solid-state' as keyword and you should
get the idea that solid-state is not necessarily 'shrill', 'bright' and 'clinical'
sounding if not driven to 'clipping'.

Puwede naman talaga, depende lang sa designer. In fact, you can duplicate
vacuum tubes ensuring that your SS amp has similar non-linear properties
as vacuum tube/transformer. Model mo lang iyung transformer ng maayos
and make sure FET iyung switching device mo (voltage driven din kasi siya)
para halos parehas ng tubo. Ayun kuha na tube sound. hehehe

JojoD818 · « **Reply #174 on:** Jan 20, 2006 at 10:26 PM »

Hhmmm..... baligtarin natin ng kaunti...

Question: What's the biggest reason why you want to go tubes?

Answer: Because Solid State amps tries so hard to duplicate Tube sound.

Joke lang ha, excuse sa mga ss amp users.

ATJr. · « **Reply #175 on:** Jan 21, 2006 at 08:03 AM »

Quote

Solid State amps tries so hard to duplicate Tube sound

hardly! ss amps can be very transparent! transfer function is way too dissimilar since the ss amps do not employ output transformers.

anyway, tube sound is produced in the single ended common cathode circuit, so a simple tube line preamp can be hooked up to an ss amp and then you get a tube sound.

JojoD818 · « **Reply #176 on:** Jan 21, 2006 at 08:58 AM »

Hardly?

Oh well, the sky is blue and it's a beautiful day.

s2kov · « **Reply #177 on:** Jan 21, 2006 at 01:34 PM »

Choice and own preference!

rascal101 · « **Reply #178 on:** Jan 25, 2006 at 12:11 PM »

Baliktarin din natin ng kaunti pa ...

Bakit iyung vacuum tube hindi magaya SS sound?

JojoD818 · « **Reply #179 on:** Jan 25, 2006 at 03:34 PM »

Quote from: rascal101 on Jan 25, 2006 at 12:11 PM

Baliktarin din natin ng kaunti pa ...

Bakit iyung vacuum tube hindi magaya SS sound?

Kasi siya ang pilit ginagaya eh.