Author Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?  (Read 70089 times)

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Offline bruno

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #90 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:25 AM »
The biggest reason why I won't go to tubes is because I love deep bass as much as i love the mids and the highs.  Tubes just can't provide the bass I'd love to hear and feel like SS does.

Offline john5479

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #91 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 08:02 AM »
single ended...less parts...less stages...the better the musical integrity is. I would love to have those aleph amps if not for the price and the power it consumes...oh did I forget that these amps require some warming up according to nelson pass himself to sound its best ?  :)
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2003 at 08:02 AM by john5479 »

Offline alfa

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #92 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 08:29 AM »
Is there such a thing as an integrated tube amp? How much does a decent second hand cost (enough to power a sonus concerto)

How about a second hand tube power amp? How much willl that cost? Again enough to power a sonus concerto.

TIA.

Offline geko

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #93 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 10:17 AM »
If a certain individual says this and that...take it with a grain of salt, whats important here is to have an open mind, I believe the person who started this thread wants to get the point of view of an ss user why he doesn't want to delve into tube amplification not to say that tubes are superior or something like that.  At the same time, clear misconceptions...with the wealth of info you can get from the net its easy to get swayed into thinking something is inferior to this and that. Great reviews, you buy it...without auditioning...you buy something, you like the sound..but want to find articles to give you comfort knowing you bought something thats well reviewed...like its the best.

well said, john5479.  exactly the same sentiments as mine.   :)

in my case, my reasons for not moving into tubes yet are as follows:
1. fear of the unknown - tubes, at the moment, are still  
    a mystery to me. i still need to understand them better.  
2. budgetary constraints - don't we all have this problem.   :)

last night, i was lying on our sala floor listening to jheena lodwick's all my loving album.  in between being awake & being asleep, i felt her songs giving me a feeling of certain sweet bliss & finally lulling me to a restful sleep.  if tubes can do the same to me & take me to a higher plane of enjoyment then i will definity go for tubes in the future.  ;D  

but, of course, that's just me.  ;)  
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:04 PM by geko »
just an ordinary music enthusiast.

Offline ambel

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #94 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 11:51 AM »
One thing about tube reliability. Western Electric
they made tube gears that would last several limetimes.
These gears are legendary for their reliability AT&T was
surprised when they upgraded their trans Atlantic telephone network in the early 90''s. When they replaced those tube repeaters which are submerged in
the Atlantic ocean since the 1930's without maintenance. The tube and equipment is still working.
I have seen and heard the Western Electric 43A theather amp which was built in 1932 untouched that came out from an old movie house still in tip top shape.
The Western Electric 300B is rated at 40,000 hrs
thats the minimum it will last a lifetime.
There is Bendix their Red Banks tubes were a mainstay
in the early stage of the US space program. Really
built to outlast even your sturdy SS 400G's at 600 Celcius. If you want to see  tube electronics that was
done the way it should be look for Altec Lansing amps,
Marantz and every industrial tube gears that were
sold to the US military.

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #95 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:19 PM »
single ended...less parts...less stages...the better the musical integrity is

Amen!  

And mine's coupled to a back-to-basics non-oversampling, filterless DAC and a single stage (though phase inverting) pre-amp, and speakers with 1st order crossovers.

K.I.S.S.  Keep It Simple Stup...endously!   8)

I would love to have those aleph amps if not for the price and the power it consumes...

300w so long as it's on, with or without signal.   :(

oh did I forget that these amps require some warming up according to nelson pass himself to sound its best ?  :)

True.

To my ears, it sounds good from a cold start.  It just gets better as you approach the 1hr mark.

Interestingly though, I like it because it doesn't sound like solid state at all.   ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:23 PM by rtsy »

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #96 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:28 PM »
One thing about tube reliability. Western Electric
they made tube gears that would last several limetimes.

Ambel,

One of the points raised is reliability of comparably priced tubes vs. S/S.

Might you have ideas on how much those 300Bs or better, those complete amps you mentioned cost when it was still manufactured?

I think this information will help put reliability AND value in perspective.

Thanks in advance!

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #97 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:33 PM »
The biggest reason why I won't go to tubes is because I love deep bass as much as i love the mids and the highs.  Tubes just can't provide the bass I'd love to hear and feel like SS does.

Watch the announcements for listening sessions at http://www.pinoydiophiles.com/ , especially if there is a session at Ike's (a.k.a., choobs) for his Voigts with Radioshack drivers.  Also, try to hear the Voigts at Sonny Tuazons.

But don't bother if 10Hz (using 9wpc amps) is not deep enough bass for you.   8)

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #98 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 01:41 PM »
1. fear of the unknown - tubes, at the moment, are still  
    a mystery to me. i still need to understand them better.  

This is my exact same reason why despite how convinced I am about the sound of SETs, I haven't gone into it.

I feel there is still so much to understand like which power tubes to go for (300B, 2A3, 45, 211/845, Monica/Darling, etc.), which input tubes to drive the power tubes (6SN7, or even Sakuma's like drives like philosophy, etc.), coupling caps vs. direct-coupled, which transformers, etc.

Further, one does not make decisions on SET (note, not ALL tube amps) based on the amp alone.  It's a commitment also in terms of speakers...you can only use those with sensitivities better than mid-90 db and I love Sonus Fabers.   :(

To a certain extent, SET is also a commitment to silver wiring that can get $$$.

if tubes can do the same to me & take me to a higher plane of enjoyment then i will definity go for tubes in the future.  ;D  

If you love your current system so much, quit auditioning and just enjoy.  When you find quibbles with your set-up, then that's when you look around.  But this advise is like a surgeon's operation:  I can't do it for myself. ;D

Offline ambel

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #99 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 02:28 PM »
For the WE 300B it's around $2 to $8 when they were producing it in the late 1930's to around 1960.
But the gears are leased. Bell Labs/Western Electric is
a monopoly they don't sell their equiptments you lease
it and they will maintain after the lease has expired. all
those gears are destroyed that's why they are so rare.
And most of the those amps are in Japan and it's also
Western Electric who founded NEC in Japan in the late
1800's. That's why all the WE amps are revered by the
Japanese.
SET single ended triodes when designed conservatively
or tube amps in general will be reliable.
Except those modern designer who wants to push the
tube parameters to their limit.
And another thing the QC on the tubes that were manufactured in Asia and Eastern Europe which basically
are responsible for most of the failure.
Compared it to a 70 year old 45 tube that has exposed to the element. Clean and test it and if test good
plug it on your amp and enjoy the music.

Offline tuff_u_gong

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #100 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 02:39 PM »
The biggest reason why I won't go to tubes is because I love deep bass as much as i love the mids and the highs.  Tubes just can't provide the bass I'd love to hear and feel like SS does.

in a sense that's correct, since here in Manila one has very limited choices of speakers to match with tube amps, specially with single-ended triode (SET) tube amps. (although there's been a recent addition to that list: vintage dog's brines-fostex crossoverless speakers!)

however, it's a very common misconception that tubes can't do bass. in fact, with the proper speakers, BASS can sound tighter, faster and even more lifelike with tube amps than with most solid state amps.

correct me if i'm wrong but i also think that tube amps can handle most subwoofers pretty well since the latter have very high, and often, flat impedance specifications.

as for floorstanders that can slam with your tube gear, you might want to visit www.wiredstate.com or www.pinoydiophiles.com and look for forums under the headings: voigt, brines-fostex, coincident.
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2003 at 02:53 PM by tuff_u_gong »

Offline wackymen

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #101 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 08:53 PM »
The biggest reason why i wont go tube is money. But if i have lots of lots of money, i'll go for three set-ups (Tube, SS and Hybrid). I want to get the best of both worlds. Infact, hybrid is now the name of the game in high end audio.

Offline levi

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #102 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 10:34 PM »
Is there such a thing as an integrated tube amp? How much does a decent second hand cost (enough to power a sonus concerto)

How about a second hand tube power amp? How much willl that cost? Again enough to power a sonus concerto.

TIA.


Alfa,

   Im using a Scott Integrated Amp. It has only 18 watts but it can drive my B&W 603 floorstanders. Im not sure if it can handle SF concerto with its low impedance and sensitivity. You can try the TS Audio of Corrsty, I know it was able to drive different models of SF. Its less than 20 grand.

Offline levi

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #103 on: Jun 19, 2003 at 10:39 PM »
well said, john5479.  exactly the same sentiments as mine.   :)

in my case, my reasons for not moving into tubes yet are as follows:
1. fear of the unknown - tubes, at the moment, are still  
    a mystery to me. i still need to understand them better.  
2. budgetary constraints - don't we all have this problem.   :)

last night, i was lying on our sala floor listening to jheena lodwick's all my loving album.  in between being awake & being asleep, i felt her songs giving me a feeling of certain sweet bliss & finally lulling me to a restful sleep.  if tubes can do the same to me & take me to a higher plane of enjoyment then i will definity go for tubes in the future.  ;D  

but, of course, that's just me.  ;)  


    I would describe it this way. You will not only feel the song. Its as if the singer is singing beside you until your in dreamland. Try to visit the shop of Hyperaudio and audition the tubes. Just my 1 cent.

Offline john5479

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #104 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 03:02 AM »
audition the amps and try to hear jacintha's rendition of danny boy and moon river ;)

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #105 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 06:05 AM »
You can try the TS Audio of Corrsty, I know it was able to drive different models of SF. Its less than 20 grand.

I had the 34.1 for a while.  I was forced to sell it because:  1-- the AKG K1000 I was to mate it with never arrived and 2--I could help a fellow audiophile improve his system for not much $$$ by selling the TS to him.

With appropriate (entry level) speakers (90db up and fairly flat impedance like the Heybrook, Missions), it'll be hard for any S/S at twice it's price to beat it's warmth and tonality.

As for TS and Concerto...in a smallish room, at reasonable listening levels, and with simple music, pwede.

Offline Blade

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #106 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 07:50 AM »
have to save up for these tubes (34.1 or the 10k DIY or Master Hyper's int tubes) at least marami ng pagpipilian
will just partner them with Missions & BWs

if ever i go tubes, me alternative pa rin akong SS kasi i still have my HT setup.
depende na lang kung anong music ang gusto
para i can switch to tubes or SS  ::) ::)

pero for now : am just happy & contented sa mga auditions c/o friends with simple or "astig" audio setups
thanks.


blade. 8)


Offline john5479

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #107 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 08:25 AM »
I had the 34.1 for a while.  I was forced to sell it because:  1-- the AKG K1000 I was to mate it with never arrived and 2--I could help a fellow audiophile improve his system for not much $$$ by selling the TS to him.

Hope this doesn't happen to me since i'm awaiting my akg1000's to pair with my tube integrated amp :)

Offline geko

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #108 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 12:10 PM »
   I would describe it this way. You will not only feel the song. Its as if the singer is singing beside you until your in dreamland. Try to visit the shop of Hyperaudio and audition the tubes. Just my 1 cent.

audition the amps and try to hear jacintha's rendition of danny boy and moon river ;)

i would try to do just that in the very near future.   i could already imagine jacintha singing in front of me...   :D

kakatakot lang at baka bumalik ang "SARS" ko kasi di ko pa nagagamot "wallet anemia" ko.   ;D
just an ordinary music enthusiast.

Offline Johnmarc0

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #109 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 07:08 PM »

Well, you see, what your amp does (like the tubes), is to make their respective signature of sound reproduction. The NAD on the too soft and laid back, the Denon on the too laid back, the marantz on slightly laid back, the yamaha on the accurate, the pioneer on the bright, the tubes on its own coloration. So whats new to listen about. Again, the sound you listen in the tube is part of the tube technicalities, and technicalities we will not avoid. But in the end, as you said, as you listen, whether you want the sound it produced, and if you did, then you are one happy person to own one. so do I in my SS amp. I hope we will not spend so much time to defend our respective subjectivity in selecting our respective music sound.


First of all such cool site guys, never really thought this site has an audio page. Next, re this issue about tubes and SS.

I can not help but correct you about tubes and SS. Being an SS designer for a two years in a research center. strings like used in guitars and to a certain extent other instruments generate even ordered harmonics. Meaning the tone that I hear from an instrument is both the fundamental notes and its haromic derivatives all even ordered. Now what do I use to reproduce that sound, the options are....

a device where quantum mechanics rule (which screws typical thermodynamic universe) or thermodynamic universe where laws of complex physics is just turned into random heat.  SS are devices that follows the rules of quantum physics where all its idiosyncracies are amplified a thousand fold. So if I use an SS amp to reproduce a tone bed of a musical piece, I get the fundamental notes, the even order harmonics plus the odd order harmonics, hey wait a minute odd order harmonics is not suppose to be there it is not part of the sound I want.  Tubes on the other hand do not follow these rules of physics, they say yup there is odd order harmonics in there, but i just convert to heat, way novel approach just like life, it should be simple and pragmatic.

Being a tube afficionado and ex SS designer, I say I like tube's approach to music and tones, don't get me wrong I can still design an SS 8th order negative feedback amp with a wide loop gain bandwidth.

Now on coloration, it is a subjective description of constructive distortion across time. An ideal device either SS or tube does not create distortion so has no coloration, and can amplify across several frequencies but not true on a practical non linear device tube or SS. So coloration is a fact of life can't get away from it, just listen to the ones you prefer and that will be your ultimate compromise.  Problem is, lotsa people think they hear coloration but actually they are hearing odd ordered distortion, just try this experiment with a passive preamp(which by the has no coloration) and a high output CD player into a tube and SS amp then A/B the two you will know what I mean.  

There is no argument here really, if you wanna hear odd order harmonics, then so be it but please accept the fact that what you hear is not part of the original material and do not blame it on coloration, ignorance is bliss.

It just like this guy choosing a stripper to go to bed with one guy wants a girl with perfect skin while the other wants to screw a lady with body paint all over. Its each to his own posion. Really!


JM
 ;D

Offline DViant

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #110 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 07:29 PM »
Difficulty & hassles of sourcing the equipment.

The time needed to invest into the hobby.

Doesn't fit my applications.

Most are pre-owned equipment or insanely expensive when buying brand new.

If I had the time & inclination I might dabble into it. Everyone needs a hobby...

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #111 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 09:25 PM »
Difficulty & hassles of sourcing the equipment.

Have you visited Hyperaudio?  How about Lito Gelano?  I keep on hearing other names like Mang Rod and John Poscablo but have yet to meet them.

You want entry level but new?  Talk to corrsty and ask Hyperaudio about Antique Sound Labs.  

You got the moolah?  Go to AVDI for VTL; Listening in Syle for Conrad-Johnson, Air Tight, Audio Note; Audio Den for Rogue Audio, BAT.

What are you looking for?  Maybe http://www.pinoydiophiles.com can help.

The time needed to invest into the hobby.

If you DIY, yes, you need time.  If you buy old, unreliable stuff, you need time and money.  If you choose well (and there are lots of choices), it's almost plug and forget.

I've never had to seek service due to breakdown on my 20 year old pre-amp.

Doesn't fit my applications.

Hope you can share what your applications are.

Most are pre-owned equipment or insanely expensive when buying brand new.

If I had the time & inclination I might dabble into it. Everyone needs a hobby...

Just keep an open mind.  Visit Hyperaudio, join one of the Pinoydiophiles sessions, etc.  Just be exposed to it.  If you don't like it, you lose an afternoon or two.  If you do, it could be a lifetime of bliss, also poverty, but bliss first of all.   :D

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #112 on: Jun 20, 2003 at 09:27 PM »
Hope this doesn't happen to me since i'm awaiting my akg1000's to pair with my tube integrated amp :)

Where's your AKG K1000 coming from?  Can I piggyback?  :D

Offline Johnmarc0

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #113 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 02:21 AM »
pare dalawa lang yan, kung ayaw may dahilan kung gusto may paraan.

Seriously, consider the tube approach, I have been in the hobby for more than a decade and I built most of my stuff. It can get expensive (if you build amps with top parts like I do) but there is a cheap option. So there is no excuse.

Else if it is religion, then I submit. You can not ever convince a muslim that pork is really good especially bacon.

Give us a howl or PM the tube guys here or join our auditioning sessions, newbies to tube audio is welcome to our group.

SS have its merits so does tubes but if you really have not tried tubes then how can you comparatively say tubes are worse than SS. Try it (using a good cheap one, not using a bad expensive one or even worse a bad cheap one) then give me your verdict then I will not argue. You can never argue with preference. Else you don not know a F*** about what you are saying.

 

Offline levi

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #114 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 02:26 AM »
Agree  ;D

Offline Dracula

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #115 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 08:45 AM »
pare dalawa lang yan, kung ayaw may dahilan kung gusto may paraan.

Seriously, consider the tube approach, I have been in the hobby for more than a decade and I built most of my stuff. It can get expensive (if you build amps with top parts like I do) but there is a cheap option. So there is no excuse.

Else if it is religion, then I submit. You can not ever convince a muslim that pork is really good especially bacon.

Give us a howl or PM the tube guys here or join our auditioning sessions, newbies to tube audio is welcome to our group.

SS have its merits so does tubes but if you really have not tried tubes then how can you comparatively say tubes are worse than SS. Try it (using a good cheap one, not using a bad expensive one or even worse a bad cheap one) then give me your verdict then I will not argue. You can never argue with preference. Else you don not know a F*** about what you are saying.

 

How much would a good cheap one cost?  

Offline john5479

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #116 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 10:38 AM »
How much would a good cheap one cost?  

got one for 12k  :)

Offline john5479

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #117 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 10:42 AM »
I guess if you base your decisions on technical articles and giving generalizations right away and conditioning your mind (closed) you'll never try tubes and give hasty remarks about people listening to tubes.  

Offline Dracula

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #118 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 10:59 AM »
got one for 12k  :)

saan mo nabili send me a pm thanks!

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #119 on: Jun 21, 2003 at 01:09 PM »
Prof. Johnmarc0,

So glad to see you here.  For a while there, it felt like reason, open-mindedness, and tolerance could not prevail.   8)

What would be a good way to demonstrate or illustrate (without resorting to an actual audition) odd vs. even order harmonics? (e.g., how's odd order is playing a C chord and even order playing a C#?)

Would there be music that would actually sound good with lots of odd order harmonics in the reproduction?  Or is this really a matter of taste?