Topic: Bookshelf or Floorstander

[akyatbundok]

i have a bookshelf and a floorstander that sound almost exactly the same from the mids to the highs... they're the same brand/model and they use the same drivers except for the floorstander's LF woofer... when playing acoustic music on the bookshelf, i sometimes mistake it for the floorstander... it is only in the bass that the difference becomes apparent... when i hook up a sub to the bookshelf system, i am able to reproduce the same low frequencies as the floorstander.

does this mean that:

bookshelf + sub = bi-amped floorstander ?

the sound quality of the bookshelf system probably depends on the quality of the sub... the floorstander system depends on the quality of the amplification... if for instance i spend the savings i got from getting a bookshelf instead of a floorstander + amp, and use it to buy a better sub like say a REL, would it beat the turbocharged floorstander?

[av_phile1]

i have a bookshelf and a floorstander that sound almost
does this mean that:

bookshelf + sub = bi-amped floorstander ?

Technically, yes.  The fact that you are using two power amplifers to power different portions of the audo spectrum as well as active electronic crossover courtesy of your receiver is effectively real bi-amplification.  

the sound quality of the bookshelf system probably depends on the quality of the sub... the floorstander system depends on the quality of the amplification... if for instance i spend the savings i got from getting a bookshelf instead of a floorstander + amp, and use it to buy a better sub like say a REL, would it beat the turbocharged floorstander?

Not really.  Remember that an audio set-up is a chain.  Every part that you put in that chain is important  Your entire set-up is only as good the weakest link or component.  Getting a good sub will not make your set-up any good if the amplifer powering your bookshelf isn't.   And based on experience, many consumer mid-priced floorstanders can still benefit from a good sub.  Most of these floorstander only go as low as 50Hz  or 60 Hz. The better ones as low as 40Hz.  A good sub should go down to as low as 25-20Hz.  

[audio_tyro]

i have a bookshelf and a floorstander that sound almost exactly the same from the mids to the highs... they're the same brand/model and they use the same drivers except for the floorstander's LF woofer... when playing acoustic music on the bookshelf, i sometimes mistake it for the floorstander... it is only in the bass that the difference becomes apparent... when i hook up a sub to the bookshelf system, i am able to reproduce the same low frequencies as the floorstander.
does this mean that:
bookshelf + sub = bi-amped floorstander ?
the sound quality of the bookshelf system probably depends on the quality of the sub... the floorstander system depends on the quality of the amplification... if for instance i spend the savings i got from getting a bookshelf instead of a floorstander + amp, and use it to buy a better sub like say a REL, would it beat the turbocharged floorstander?

As long as we're not talking about expensive floorstanders like the Sonus faber Cremona (P290K) or Amati (P500++K), then I may always put my bet on bookshelf + subwoofer. The distinct advantage of  bookshelf versus floorstanders is that it is almost always better in imaging and disappearing act (you can visualize the singer in the middle of the room). Coupled with a good sub (like a REL) and you really get formidable sonic performance!  My Sonus faber Concertino Home + REL Strata 3 sub can somehow mimic the rich upper-midbass hump of the Cremona floorstanders, and in fact goes deeper (since the Strata is rated to go down to 18Hz, unlike the Cremona which is only at around 32+ Hz only).

To get answers to your questions, just listen and see for yourself.

[akyatbundok]

av_phile,

what if everything else is the same (including budget) and the only variables are the speakers?  same source, same receiver, same cables... as a concrete example, say the bookshelf is a B2 and the floorstander is a B4... they sound alike except the bass... the price difference is about 10k... i spend an additional 15k for a hafler power amp to power the B4 to its full potential... so now the price difference is 25k, enough to buy a velodyne.

B2 + velodyne vs. B4 + halfer ?

if i go further and get a velodyne for the B4 system, then now i have 50k budget for a sub in the B2 system.

B2 + REL vs. B4 + halfer + velo ?

not really planning to buy, just thinking of the possibilities, since i'm now using a bookshelf + 2 subs, and i'm now appreciating the flexibility of bookshelf + subs... it really is a bi-amped system.

audio_tyro,

your setup is one of my references for getting a bookshelf system right... that's why i'm trying it out in a lower scale/price range... plus the fact that my floorstander is being fixed so i don't really have a choice.

[iceman90a]

av_phile,

what if everything else is the same (including budget) and the only variables are the speakers?  same source, same receiver, same cables... as a concrete example, say the bookshelf is a B2 and the floorstander is a B4... they sound alike except the bass... the price difference is about 10k... i spend an additional 15k for a hafler power amp to power the B4 to its full potential... so now the price difference is 25k, enough to buy a velodyne.

B2 + velodyne vs. B4 + halfer ?

if i go further and get a velodyne for the B4 system, then now i have 50k budget for a sub in the B2 system.

B2 + REL vs. B4 + halfer + velo ?

not really planning to buy, just thinking of the possibilities, since i'm now using a bookshelf + 2 subs, and i'm now appreciating the flexibility of bookshelf + subs... it really is a bi-amped system.

audio_tyro,

your setup is one of my references for getting a bookshelf system right... that's why i'm trying it out in a lower scale/price range... plus the fact that my floorstander is being fixed so i don't really have a choice.

my biased opinion:  

i've heard a b4 driven by the hafler - and i've heard a b2 driven by an HK recvr with a velodyne sub(cht

for music - the b4 hafler combo sounded great (dare i say better?) consider this, the sub will reinforce the bass and some sub-audible frequencies while a maximized b4 will also have a boost in the mids and highs (as well as the lows)

i'll go for bringing out the best in your speakers  

iceman90a po (nagbebenta ng hafler  )

[akyatbundok]

my biased opinion:  

i've heard a b4 driven by the hafler - and i've heard a b2 driven by an HK recvr with a velodyne sub(cht

for music - the b4 hafler combo sounded great (dare i say better?) consider this, the sub will reinforce the bass and some sub-audible frequencies while a maximized b4 will also have a boost in the mids and highs (as well as the lows)

i'll go for bringing out the best in your speakers  

iceman90a po (nagbebenta ng hafler  )

thanks iceman, that's exactly what i wanted to know, from somebody who has heard both... i've only heard the B4 + hafler which i think sets a very high standard for us to follow.

musta na vince, natuloy swap niyo?

[iceman90a]

thanks iceman, that's exactly what i wanted to know, from somebody who has heard both... i've only heard the B4 + hafler which i think sets a very high standard for us to follow.

musta na vince, natuloy swap niyo?

di pa makasagot si Hans, pero parang ayaw na isauli  

[av_phile1]

av_phile,

what if everything else is the same (including budget) and the only variables are the speakers?  same source, same receiver, same cables... as a concrete example, say the bookshelf is a B2 and the floorstander is a B4... they sound alike except the bass... the price difference is about 10k... i spend an additional 15k for a hafler power amp to power the B4 to its full potential... so now the price difference is 25k, enough to buy a velodyne.

B2 + velodyne vs. B4 + halfer ?

if i go further and get a velodyne for the B4 system, then now i have 50k budget for a sub in the B2 system.

B2 + REL vs. B4 + halfer + velo ?

not really planning to buy, just thinking of the possibilities, since i'm now using a bookshelf + 2 subs, and i'm now appreciating the flexibility of bookshelf + subs... it really is a bi-amped system.

Personally, I would go for the B2 + sub.  Bi-amplification is the better option.    In terms of sonic quality, nothing beats separates and bi-amplifciation. More complex but the best for many  old audio enthusiast i've come across.

Get a sub that goes down to at least 20-25Hz.  The lower the better,  Among other things.  (And a sub with a notch filter can get rid of peaks typical of a sub's interactive response with the room's accostics. ) Getting a sub that can seamlessly integrate with your B2 at the lowest notes would be best.  If velodyne can do that, go for it.

Pardon me but I don't see how a Hafler amo (is that the DH200 or 220 series) can optimize the B4 or any floorstander for that matter.  Unless that amp is sonically superior to your exsiting amp.  For it to be sonically supereior, it has to give greater power. a better frequency repsonse down to 1 hz, better damping. lesser THD, lower noise floor, better dynamics, greater slew rates, etc.   Even then, if the B4 can only go down to 40Hz, then what's the point?  Any amplifier that can goi down to 20Hz would sound as good on the B4 as an amp than can go lower, all else equal. The B4's low end iability s the limiting factor.  

[iceman90a]

Pardon me but I don't see how a Hafler amo (is that the DH200 or 220 series) can optimize the B4 or any floorstander for that matter.  

its the XL280 - and in this case 'to hear is to believe'

 

[av_phile1]

its the XL280 - and in this case 'to hear is to believe'

 

Is that the same mosfet XL 280 being sold by joe3rp which i was considering last year but regrettably didn't get?  It came as a kit-form back in the early 80s right?

[marty_e]

In terms of sonic quality, nothing beats separates and bi-amplifciation. More complex but the best for many  old audio enthusiast i've come across.

Corollary to this is that the simplest approach also has its merits in, for ex: single driver crossover-less speakers often associated with low powered SET amps favored by audio enthusiasts I have come across. Often times, the less components in the audio chain, the less areas for a potential mismatch.

Think of a system that begins with a CD Transport, DAC, Preamp, HF amplifier, LF amplifier, bookshelves and a sub. 4 interconnects, 2 runs of speaker wire and another run to the sub. The implications are evident.

I think that both schools of thought prevail when considering floorstanders and bookshelf+sub combo. Integrating a sub into your 2 channel system is not always a snap. As mentioned, room acoustics can cause certain low octaves to bloat due to frequency overlaps.

Floorstanders, especially true 3-way speakers brings a coherence to it that may not go as deep as standmounts with a sub but also, (brand dependent), can produce a flatter response over a narrower bandwith.

[iceman90a]

exactly the amp you are referring to  

you can get the manual here:

http://www.hafler.com/techsupport/pdf/XL-280_amp_man.pdf

[av_phile1]

Yup, I already downloaded the manual when i was researching on it last year. Congrats on those babies.  Did you get all three of them?  I had wanted to get all three to power a 6.1 set-up.

[av_phile1]

Corollary to this is that the simplest approach also has its merits in, for ex: single driver crossover-less speakers often associated with low powered SET amps favored by audio enthusiasts I have come across. Often times, the less components in the audio chain, the less areas for a potential mismatch.

Think of a system that begins with a CD Transport, DAC, Preamp, HF amplifier, LF amplifier, bookshelves and a sub. 4 interconnects, 2 runs of speaker wire and another run to the sub. The implications are evident.

I think that both schools of thought prevail when considering floorstanders and bookshelf+sub combo. Integrating a sub into your 2 channel system is not always a snap. As mentioned, room acoustics can cause certain low octaves to bloat due to frequency overlaps.

Floorstanders, especially true 3-way speakers brings a coherence to it that may not go as deep as standmounts with a sub but also, (brand dependent), can produce a flatter response over a narrower bandwith.

Whether one or the other, as long as you get the sound you like.  There will always be tradeoffs either way.

[iceman90a]

Yup, I already downloaded the manual when i was researching on it last year. Congrats on those babies.  Did you get all three of them?  I had wanted to get all three to power a 6.1 set-up.

up until last night, I had one - its now with  someone who will be able to enjoy it more  

[akyatbundok]

its the XL280 - and in this case 'to hear is to believe'

 

i saw, i heard, i believe...  

iceman, is the lucky guy now the owner also of a nad cd player + tono/telefunken + B4, a.k.a. best-of-show?

[Superman]

i saw, i heard, i believe...  

iceman, is the lucky guy now the owner also of a nad cd player + tono/telefunken + B4, a.k.a. best-of-show?

aba!...pare, di ko akalain...B4??? dalhin mo yan sa bahay at pagsawaan natin, hehehehe!...pahiram naman ng telefunkens mo...let's compare it with the RCA blackplates...hehehe!

[akyatbundok]

aba!...pare, di ko akalain...B4??? dalhin mo yan sa bahay at pagsawaan natin, hehehehe!...pahiram naman ng telefunkens mo...let's compare it with the RCA blackplates...hehehe!

ops, paging hans & france... mr. best-of-show... wanted ang setup mo for round 2, 3 & 4... hehe

been trying to reproduce the sound of the b4+hafler combo with the b2+sub... seems to be getting there, but i'm afraid to turn it up as loud as the session at narayan's.

[iceman90a]

i saw, i heard, i believe...  

iceman, is the lucky guy now the owner also of a nad cd player + tono/telefunken + B4, a.k.a. best-of-show?

tumpak - kulang na lang chicks, at taong sisigaw ng: Showtime!!!!

 

[j_albert22]

tumpak - kulang na lang chicks, at taong sisigaw ng: Showtime!!!!

 

May kulang parin syempre dapat may beerrrrrrrrr( OT na to)

[av_phile1]

up until last night, I had one - its now with  someone who will be able to enjoy it more  

Just curious, why did you give it up?

[iceman90a]

Just curious, why did you give it up?

my living room was a mess - i had:
1 receiver
1 integ amp
1 cd player
1 dvd player
2 sets of front spkrs
1 power amp
1 tube preamp

and was still planning on getting:
1 cd player
1 tube amp

and was interchanging preamp, amp & speaker connections all the time. the wife was getting PO that she couldn't just switch the tv and receiver on anytime because i had to be sure that the connections were correct.

so i figured i would retain 1 ht setup and 1 audio setup, independent of each other. now she can watch anytime with no fear of anything smoking  

[av_phile1]

Got the picture,iceman.   Also saw your pics in the general section.  Your place was starting to look like Upscale Audio.  Not really a bad idea though.

[iceman90a]

Got the picture,iceman.   Also saw your pics in the general section.  Your place was starting to look like Upscale Audio.   Not really a bad idea though.

i wish...  

[qguy]

I like both....Bookshelf and floorstanders...  i mean both at the same time...

Bookshelf satellites and a pair of floorstanding units for the bass section...hehehe

honestly its a matter of preference and thje type of music you listen to.....

I like floorstanders....its kinda hard for a bookshelf with  a 6.5 inch woofer to realistically reproduced the slam of a kick drum which has a diameter of more than 24 inches....

[accastil]

i own both floorstanders and bookshelf speakers. i would personally choose the bookshelf when in comes to 2-channel audio listening regardless of music played upon it. the bookshelf simply has better accuracy, dynamics and imaging than my floorstanders.
however, i would go in favor of my floorstander when in comes to HT.

[av_phile1]

however, i would go in favor of my floorstander when in comes to HT.

Since HT requires a sub to be more convincing,  I would think a floorstander can be unnecessary.  Satellite/sub set-up serve HT very well, but not as good in music.

[accastil]

It really depends on the type of music. bookshelves are better performers for jazz, vocals, chant, instrumental music. floorstanders are better for rock, disco, and all other bass heavy type of music.

[brandon]

If we're talking about music (not HT), floorstanders are best.
Floorstanders generally convey a better sense of space and depth in recordings
which bookshelves that rely solely on the subwoofers can struggle to present.
 

[av_phile1]

Satellite/sub set-up serve HT very well, but not as good in music.

I must be a bit drunk saying that.     Silly me.  A good bookshelf-subwoofer tandem can be quite excellent in music.  In fact, because very few floorstanders can go deep into the 20hz-25hz bottom, using a competent musical subwoofer that does go that deep can impart so much more realism and bottom airiness than using many floorstanders often limited to 40hz -3db. And because bookshelf speakers crossed-over to 80 or 120hz can impart fuller bodied mids unhampered by internal standing waves caused by low frequencies, they can be quite formidable in music.  But admiittedly there's a lot more work to be done with bookself-sub combinations that may not be there with FS.  Making sure that you achieve a seamless integration between the two is one very important aspect to work on in such a set-up.   

Using FS doesn't always mean they are sufficient for music.  Unless it's one of those high end FS speakers that can really go down to 20hz.  Maybe for Pop, rock, disco and fussion, they can be just fine.  But for some classical music like church pedal organ music that have spectral content even below 20hz, you'd be missing them out.    A competent sub that really goes deep can do a good job to compliment commercial FS speakers that are often buttom challenged below 40hz.  Again, whether BS or FS, seamless integration is a must.  And many serious audiophiles have been using specialized subs long before they became fashionable with HT.  Because they know that unless they spend big bucks for FS that can really go deep, a specialized subwoofer designed for those deep lows can bring a more satisfying listening experience at a more reasonable cost.  Regardless whether using BS or FS.