Author Topic: Speaker Modification / Upgrade  (Read 78675 times)

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Offline Stagea

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #210 on: Apr 18, 2011 at 01:17 PM »
yeah ? well probably cause you spent on caps more expensive than the tweeters on your beloved WHARFEDALES.

Would you like to share your experience with the same upgrade on your other speakers?

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #211 on: Apr 18, 2011 at 09:28 PM »
In fairness, if you have developed an ear that is sharp to identify harsh highs, finding a good tweeter is quite difficult. Again, in this game, cost will not tell you the quality of sound emanating from the driver. I sometimes end up with a number - but when I found something good, I stock some of them for future use just in case, especially if they are dirt cheap.

In my wharf 8.3 with 86db in my previous life, adding a good found (P100/pair piezo with 107db sensitivity does the trick). For the speaker not to see the new device, got to put a series resistor to equalize the 107db to 86db. The cross over is built on the tweeter, and the high value resistor does not impact on the total impedance of the speaker as seen by the amplifier.

Too bad, wen I came back to buy more tweeters of that brand, nowhere can I find any more stocks - even in other stores. many piezo tweets I tried sound harsh / coarse. But once in a while, a gold is among the trashes of pretenders.

Another option I found early on is to buy vintage drivers. I am fond of vintage horn tweeters from branded speaker makers. I have kenwood metal horns (silver rectangle), round coral horns - high sensitivity drivers being sold cheap because the one selling is clueless or do not care at all. I encountered even a magus metal horn 5 x 10 inches that sound so clean that I stocked it!

But somehow I have to agree with others - those efforts and cost in upgrading capacitors to enhance the highs - especially with those souped up capacitors, tend to cost impractically high, considering the benefit one may derive from it, if there is - as a matter of fact - any. I have the impression that the difference in sonic is more a result of altered cross-over frequencies because of capacitor values chosen. I might be wrong since I have not ventured in this path at all.

Offline Digities

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #212 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 04:45 AM »
Would you like to share your experience with the same upgrade on your other speakers?

you mean cap upgrade ? i have a titus floorstander that i upgraded to mundorf supremes, dale resistors and gold plated copper binding posts.. instrument separation and transparency is much much better (this is the first time i truly appreciated the rippingtons (and other music for that matter)). highs are well textured, sound is much bigger.. oh and my speakers now disappear depending on what's playing. also when i play my music, it's like the speakers are just furniture and the center image sounds like it's coming out really from the middle. amazing on concerts in that any more upgrades lalabas na yung kumakanta sa tv.

on the dali's, i just had them upgraded to mcaps and dale resistors, sound is more detail than before, and also bigger soundstage. cleaner too.

Offline edwin

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #213 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 05:40 AM »
I had aready done.quite a number of speaker crossover parts upgrade, maybe 2 dozen or more. Those were my previous speakers, my frieds and some other people who just not handy with the soldering iron.
Even before there was mundorf, i was using hovland and auricap. Mundorf supreme is my favorite as it is a step better than the two. I like pretty much better the silver in oil but its quite expensive.
I kept doing it as it transform the speaker. Lately, i have learned that using mundorf silver internal cables for the tweeter is a lot better than their copper. If you want to save cost, just use it on the positive side and copper on the negative.
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Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #214 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 05:42 AM »
V-cap Teflon caps is the best there is.....
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #215 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 07:46 AM »
Personally, I like choke tweaks better than capacitor tweaks on speakers.

Offline Digities

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #216 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 08:28 AM »
Personally, I like choke tweaks better than capacitor tweaks on speakers.

choke tweaks ? enlighten us :).

Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #217 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 10:06 AM »
I have a thread on maximizing speaker performance

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,119685.0.html

I have discussed choke tweaks around pages 5 and 6 of the thread.

For chokes or inductors what is important is the winding technique and number of turns used. You need to experiment yourself on this matter as these issue is sensitive to many companies such commonsense audio, trodt, etc. In short these are company secrets.

In my thread, I have used 6 turns as a start to those who want to do choke tweaks. You can experiment further by increasing/decreasing turns or adding additional turns eg 1 turn so total turns will become 1+6. You can even use 1+3+6 if you want.

So, you have

speaker wire               speaker wire
>-------------> 1+3+6 >----------------> speaker

In my experience and from what I have learned, these choke tweaks are better suited for speakers as voice coils are essentially inductors. This is my opinion.
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2011 at 10:30 AM by rascal101 »

Offline edwin

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #218 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 10:59 AM »
V-cap Teflon caps is the best there is.....

I hevent heard the Duelands, but some says it is better than the v caps. If cost is not an issue, for sure all the caps i used will be these two.
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Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #219 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM »
Quote
from what I have learned, these choke tweaks are better suited for speakers as voice coils are essentially inductors.

essentially true for certain frequencies.....inductors have lagging power factors but when used as motors (a speaker voice coil/magnet assembly is essentially a motor) can have leading or lagging power factors....

if you want to upgrade your coils, use heavier gage wires, for example if the original coil used gage#20, then a gage#18 up is a better replacement....

here are some coil inductor calculators on the net:
http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/A-Inductance.htm
http://www.coilgun.info/mark2/inductorsim.htm
http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/inductor_info.html

if you are going to do mods on your cross-overs, it is better you know what coils you are doing/making....



« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2011 at 03:19 AM by TonyT »
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Offline praktikal

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #220 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 11:55 AM »
WOW!

Daming options pala kung talagang gugustohin.

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #221 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 05:29 PM »
WOW!

Daming options pala kung talagang gugustohin.

yup, these guys have been doing basic tweaks, if you want the best and brightest upgrades, these are the ways to go....

1. replace all capacitors to Teflons, : http://www.v-cap.com/copper-teflon-capacitors.php
2. replace the pc board to FR4 of teflon boards with 3 oz. copper,   http://www.pcs-electronics.com/teflon-laminate-copper-foil-p-1322.html
3. replace inductors to copper foils instead of copper wire,; https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=22

these things will provide you with the ultimate tweaking experience....
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #222 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 06:02 PM »
^One issue I could see with above proposal is the size of the components. May not fit in BS speakers.

Furthermore, the cost of the components may be easily higher than the cost of the speakers by several times making it out of reach for many of us.
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2011 at 07:04 PM by rascal101 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #223 on: Apr 19, 2011 at 09:13 PM »
Quote
yup, these guys have been doing basic tweaks, if you want the best and brightest upgrades, these are the ways to go....

1. replace all capacitors to Teflons, : http://www.v-cap.com/copper-teflon-capacitors.php
2. replace the pc board to FR4 of teflon boards with 3 oz. copper,   http://www.pcs-electronics.com/teflon-laminate-copper-foil-p-1322.html
3. replace inductors to copper foils instead of copper wire,; https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=22

these things will provide you with the ultimate tweaking experience....



Got to read the stuff - the v-cap. I did not find any that explains the reason - except that the one who developed is a professional pianist - plus descriptive words for the product that excite the audio hobbyist - and most of all the price of 0.47uF cap is $279. Guys, meet Chris Venhaus, the maker of "better sounding power cord".

Yeah - man in his quest for the best always aim for the ideals (the perfect item), even if it is not quite useful in the real world - nor is there a validation of its claims. A perfect capacitor for an imperfect driver, in an imperfect listening room.

Anybody care to open a v-cap and traced its real manufacturer? I do not want to dampen any enthusiasm but - oh well, happy tweaking then!


Quote
^One issue I could see with above proposal is the size of the components. May not fit in BS speakers.

Furthermore, the cost of the components may be easily higher than the cost of the speakers by several times making it out of reach for many of us.


I think you don't even need to go this far if you are serious in your stuff!
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2011 at 09:24 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #224 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 03:19 AM »
as far as caps go, Teflon is number 1, followed by polycarbonate at 2nd, then polypropylene is 3rd...

afaik, polycarbonate has become unobtainium, styrol or polystyrene is also no2, but is not available in large values......

i would avoid polyesters like mylars......and tantalums.....
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #225 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 05:27 AM »
I believe Glass and silver mica should also be included.

Why avoid polyester caps? Many audio companies still use them.
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2011 at 05:32 AM by rascal101 »

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #226 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 06:03 AM »
mylars are know to be temperature unstable...
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #227 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 06:25 AM »
I think as long as it is not placed near resistors (as these heat up due to power dissipation) temp should not be an issue.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #228 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 06:34 AM »
yes, but polypropylene caps are now abundant and cheap, generic polypropylenes are just as good as branded ones....i purchased several 4ufd/400volt polys from APEXJr. for a $1 each....
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #229 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 06:44 AM »
It is quite difficult to source polypropelene locally. Except for Spin Electronics, Watsons, Eleshop (only few values available) and the occasional parts along Ronquillo (doon sa nagkakariton) it is very difficult for someone in the province eg Bulacan.

If only DEECO and Alexan can source these parts it would help many DIYers.

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #230 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 06:47 AM »
^that is why i buy on-line from the states....

i hate to give up my secret, but if you know how to look, you will find so many items from those magkakariton sa mga sidewalks ng raon at evangelista.....hindi alam ng mga nagbebenta kung ano yung mga items at kung magkano ang tunay na value......kung marunong kang tumingin marami kang mapupulot doon na mga "real gems"....

sa roks naman sa kabila ng avenida, nakabile ako ng vishay 1k metal film resistors for  1peso each.......kung alam lang nila...... ;D swerte ko..... :D :D
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2011 at 06:51 AM by TonyT »
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #231 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 07:29 AM »
I know what you mean. I was able to buy Evox PFR polypropelenes and a lot of silver micas along Ronquillo - pakyawan style  ;D In case someone is looking for quite cheap 1uF monolithic caps I also know where along Raon  ;D

Speaking of temp sensitivity I have damaged quite a few of polystyrene caps just by nearly touching them with the body of my soldering iron. As such, I have stopped buying these caps. I wonder why Alexan stock on these and not polypropelene caps knowing these critters are very sensitive to heat.
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2011 at 07:45 AM by rascal101 »

Offline saladmaster

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #232 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 08:50 AM »
ok so where can we source out this better caps locally?

there is...

Raon
red audiophiler caps

eleshop, ronquillo, quiapo manila
tel# 7332925  / 7332931
carrying caps like?

mang gerry
0921-7430558
400-2762
near southsuperhiway, just after quirino avenue.
carrying caps like?

AudioAmplified in Libis QC
Mundurf M-Caps
latest prices are:
4.7uF M-Cap Supreme  --------- P1,754.00
6.8uF M-Cap Supreme  --------- P2,072.00
4.7uF M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil - P4,467.00
6.8uF M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil - P5,540.00
M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil

who else guys?
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2011 at 08:56 AM by saladmaster »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #233 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 09:34 AM »
Quote
polystyrene caps

they are best for stability....silvered micas are also applicable....these caps are used in phono preamps and such types of circuits....
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #234 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 10:07 AM »
ok so where can we source out this better caps locally?

there is...

Raon
red audiophiler caps

eleshop, ronquillo, quiapo manila
tel# 7332925  / 7332931
carrying caps like?

mang gerry
0921-7430558
400-2762
near southsuperhiway, just after quirino avenue.
carrying caps like?

AudioAmplified in Libis QC
Mundurf M-Caps
latest prices are:
4.7uF M-Cap Supreme  --------- P1,754.00
6.8uF M-Cap Supreme  --------- P2,072.00
4.7uF M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil - P4,467.00
6.8uF M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil - P5,540.00
M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil

who else guys?


Difficult to use Mang Gerry or Audio Amplified if you're doing development type of w ork targeting high number of clients. Also, difficult to justify high BOM cost in current economy. There are certainly cheaper alternatives or circuit solutions for premium caps.
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2011 at 10:21 AM by rascal101 »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #235 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 10:36 AM »
ang intended market kasi nyang botique caps yung mga me pera.........hindi yan pang masa...
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Offline saladmaster

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #236 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 11:56 AM »
thanks for the input guys.

if i were to upgrade this Yamaha NS-20M what type of budget caps is better?


Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #237 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 12:14 PM »
I suggest you go with the Audiophiler caps at Eleshop then parallel it with 10nF polypropelene (Ero KT 1801) caps at Spin Electronics instead of the 10nF Vishay MKP1837.

Offline saladmaster

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #238 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 01:12 PM »
I suggest you go with the Audiophiler caps at Eleshop then parallel it with 10nF polypropelene (Ero KT 1801) caps at Spin Electronics instead of the 10nF Vishay MKP1837.

thanks rascal....

heres what i do just now a few minutes ago...

xover of my Tannoy 611

before


after

Offline rascal101

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Re: Speaker Modification / Upgrade
« Reply #239 on: Apr 20, 2011 at 01:51 PM »
Very nice!