Author Topic: Picture Calibration (Read 34605 times)

WaynedBrain · « **Reply #120 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 11:43 AM »

Is it recommended to calibrate the plasma after break in?

barrister · « **Reply #121 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 11:59 AM »

Yes, that's right.

On plasma, the picture changes slightly after break-in. If you calibrate before break-in, you will have to check again after the break-in procedure, and you might need to re-calibrate.

Quote from: fnvillafuerte on Jul 14, 2008 at 11:31 AM

I just disregard the result of the calibration tools and used my previous personal calibration. Now I felt that my investment in the calibration tools were just a waste of money...

Wow.

That's a real eye-opener. Thanks for the very useful insights.

I just use a free THX Optimizer. I need test patterns only for brightness and tint. For other criteria, I can calibrate without the help of test patterns.

In my view, calibration tools are necessary for inexperienced owners.

But for the more experienced users, calibration tools can be useful as a starting point. After that, settings should still be finalized manually.

ABCmotorparts · « **Reply #122 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 01:19 PM »

Quote from: fnvillafuerte on Jul 14, 2008 at 11:31 AM

I definitely agree with LETOR and bukoy... I bought AVIA, Sound & Vision and THX Glasses calibration tools to calibrate my Pana Plasma but the result looks "too bright colors" for my eyes. So I ended up recalibrating based on my own eyes perception, which if tested by AVIA, Sound & Vision and THX Glasses will give "failed" or "not passed" grades! I just disregard the result of the calibration tools and used my previous personal calibration. Now I felt that my investment in the calibration tools were just a waste of money...

I was about to send you a PM about that sir,
glad you posted your observation about it,...

Thanks...

E-reply · « **Reply #123 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 01:34 PM »

Quote from: ABCmotorparts on Jul 14, 2008 at 01:19 PM

I was about to send you a PM about that sir,
glad you posted your observation about it,...

Thanks...

Hello Benedict,

Still owe you one time calibration for your plasma with the Spyder colorimeter. Hope to get a sale from your province this month, so that we can pass by to calibrate your TV.

Sent you text.

streetsmart · « **Reply #124 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 01:44 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2008 at 11:59 AM

I just use a free THX Optimizer. I need test patterns only for brightness and tint. For other criteria, I can calibrate without the help of test patterns.

In my view, calibration tools are necessary for inexperienced owners.

But for the more experienced users, calibration tools can be useful as a starting point. After that, settings should still be finalized manually.

In my experience, I agree that by eye, you may be able to do a satisfactory adjustment of brightness and contrast, but it is very difficult to get color and tint correct, just by eye alone. Following this, depending on the source (over-the-air, SD, BD) and the material (the particular disc or channel), you may still need to adjust brightness and contrast (or some other feature of your display or source such as gamma, black level, noise reduction, fine detail, etc.) by eye.

However, if you are talking about greyscale and color temperature, you definitely need instruments because it will be impossible to do this by eye alone. And in my experience, the difference can be huge. You can take a look at the "before" and "after" calibration pics of Munskie's pj at the HT Gallery and you will note a huge difference.

Munskie · « **Reply #125 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 02:08 PM »

Post ko dito Mark.......

As part of improvements in my HT, I had it professionally calibrated. It was my first time to have some professional help regarding calibration, and it was done by fellow kabalen sir alvinthx2.

Alvin concentrated first on the video calibration of my Panasonic AE2000, as I was tasked by him to put some bass traps before he could do the audio calibration.

His software, Datacolor Colorfacts, first analyzed my default settings on my PJ. The initial RGB color tracking analysis revealed that I have high levels of blue, and low levels of red. He tweaked the color management menu of my PJ, and after some tweaking, he was able to correct the RGB levels of my PJ.

color tracking analysis chart, after calibration, showing the near perfect levels of RGB

color temperature tracking analysis chart, after calibration. Alvin adjusted it to 6484k, wala pang 1% off sa ideal color temperature of 6504k or D65.

Luminance tracking across greyscale level, near perfect rin....

Alvin said that most PJs are overly saturated in their default color settings. But it results in unnatural skin and color tones, which is unrealistic. After some demo material, and some films I am familiar were shown, I was truly satisfied with what Alvin has done. The differences might not be huge to the untrained eye, but this calibration showed me how having the right levels of colors, greyscale, and color temperature contributes in having the best PQ possible out of my equipment.

and the Before and After Screenshots

Notice how the before shots are cooler, or have high levels of blue color. Much better skin tones on the right.

streetsmart · « **Reply #126 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 02:43 PM »

Marvin, thanks for posting. Bluish nga ang pre-calibration pics. The problem is that without the proper instruments, it's impossible to do the calibration.

Essentially, you have to adjust the "gain" and "offset" for each of red, green and blue. Depending on your display or source, you may have 20 to 150 grades for each. That's like permutations for 6 outputs with 150 possible choices for each. If my statistics is still good, is that 150 factorial over 144 factorial? 150 x 149 x 148 x 147 x 146 x 145 or roughly 1.029 x 10 raised to the 13th power is the number of possible variations when you have 150 grades for the gain and offset of red, green and blue.

iiinas · « **Reply #127 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 02:48 PM »

Quote from: Munskie on Jul 14, 2008 at 02:08 PM

Post ko dito Mark.......

As part of improvements in my HT, I had it professionally calibrated. It was my first time to have some professional help regarding calibration, and it was done by fellow kabalen sir alvinthx2.

Alvin concentrated first on the video calibration of my Panasonic AE2000, as I was tasked by him to put some bass traps before he could do the audio calibration.

His software, Datacolor Colorfacts, first analyzed my default settings on my PJ. The initial RGB color tracking analysis revealed that I have high levels of blue, and low levels of red. He tweaked the color management menu of my PJ, and after some tweaking, he was able to correct the RGB levels of my PJ.

color tracking analysis chart, after calibration, showing the near perfect levels of RGB

color temperature tracking analysis chart, after calibration. Alvin adjusted it to 6484k, wala pang 1% off sa ideal color temperature of 6504k or D65.

Luminance tracking across greyscale level, near perfect rin....

Alvin said that most PJs are overly saturated in their default color settings. But it results in unnatural skin and color tones, which is unrealistic. After some demo material, and some films I am familiar were shown, I was truly satisfied with what Alvin has done. The differences might not be huge to the untrained eye, but this calibration showed me how having the right levels of colors, greyscale, and color temperature contributes in having the best PQ possible out of my equipment.

and the Before and After Screenshots

Notice how the before shots are cooler, or have high levels of blue color. Much better skin tones on the right.

here in my computer screen, the difference is subtle, but i believe when in front of your huge screen sir munskie, the difference must surely be very noticeable. the whites and skin tone are much more natural.

pchin · « **Reply #128 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 02:55 PM »

Congrat Marvin for a nicely calibrated HT...near perfect!

Here's a link to the popular

GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES

Perfect for non-techie people.

Is this guide for me?

This guide is for the home theater enthusiast who wants to get the absolute best picture out of their TV or projector. It will show you how to obtain the most accurate colours possible on any display regardless of technology (CRT, LCD, DLP, SXRD, LCOS, etc.). No prior knowledge or understanding of greyscale or colour calibration is required. Even if you have absolutely no understanding of what CIE, D65, or colorimetry means, you'll be able to calibrate your greyscale and colours correctly. In fact, you may not even know what "greyscale calibration" is at all! That's fine! We'll explain why it's important along with exactly what tools are needed and how to use them. Read on and learn how and why proper greyscale and colour calibration is regarded as one of (if not the) most important calibration anyone should perform on their TV or projector for optimal picture quality.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

oReOsHaKe · « **Reply #129 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 03:26 PM »

Quote from: pchin on Jul 14, 2008 at 02:55 PM

Congrat Marvin for a nicely calibrated HT...near perfect!

Here's a link to the popular

GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES

Perfect for non-techie people.

Is this guide for me?

This guide is for the home theater enthusiast who wants to get the absolute best picture out of their TV or projector. It will show you how to obtain the most accurate colours possible on any display regardless of technology (CRT, LCD, DLP, SXRD, LCOS, etc.). No prior knowledge or understanding of greyscale or colour calibration is required. Even if you have absolutely no understanding of what CIE, D65, or colorimetry means, you'll be able to calibrate your greyscale and colours correctly. In fact, you may not even know what "greyscale calibration" is at all! That's fine! We'll explain why it's important along with exactly what tools are needed and how to use them. Read on and learn how and why proper greyscale and colour calibration is regarded as one of (if not the) most important calibration anyone should perform on their TV or projector for optimal picture quality.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Nice article Paul.. Thanks..

barrister · « **Reply #130 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 03:28 PM »

Great inputs!

Please keep them coming. I want to draft a conclusion based on your comments.

Based on the comments so far, results will depend on the display used. Calibration is useful for projectors, but not so much for plasma panels.

Quote from: iiinaslao on Jul 14, 2008 at 02:48 PM

here in my computer screen, the difference is subtle, but i believe when in front of your huge screen sir munskie, the difference must surely be very noticeable. the whites and skin tone are much more natural.

On my computer monitor (CRT), I can see a big difference. But I really think I can adjust the "before" shots to the "after" shots myself on a plasma, without professional calibration.

More comments, please. If you already have a good eye, will you still need professional calibration for a plasma or LCD?

pchin · « **Reply #131 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 03:35 PM »

I fnd this site very useful & easy to follow the step by step instructions.

GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

streetsmart · « **Reply #132 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 03:48 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2008 at 03:28 PM

On my computer monitor (CRT), I can see a big difference. But I really think I can adjust the "before" shots to the "after" shots myself on a plasma, without professional calibration.

I seriously doubt if you could do that adjustment by yourself.

If you will notice, the obvious error in calibration was too much blue and too little red. By eye, my guess is that Alvin had to reduce the gain of the blue channel (the whites are bluish) and increase the bias of the red (red portions in the dark areas became black). But its hard to say by how much. And then what about the green?

I've seen Alvin do the calibration and it takes him up to 2 hours, even with instruments. Imagine if you have no instruments.

iiinas · « **Reply #133 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 03:50 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2008 at 03:28 PM

Great inputs!

Please keep them coming. I want to draft a conclusion based on your comments.

Based on the comments so far, results will depend on the display used. Calibration is useful for projectors, but not so much for plasma panels.

On my computer monitor (CRT), I can see a big difference. But I really think I can adjust the "before" shots to the "after" shots myself on a plasma, without professional calibration.

More comments, please. If you already have a good eye, will you still need professional calibration for a plasma or LCD?

i think i agree with sir mark that in terms of color temperature, grey scale and color. it is best to have instruments measure it. because there are standard numerical figures (d65 etc) for these criteria that results in a picture that is acceptable to majority of people in conditions (ambient light and etc.) that the calibration was based on. but as any standard, it might not be acceptable to some. as they say there is no perfect standard.

personally, if i can afford it, professional help is the way to go. if we can't have or afford it (like me!

) then i try to get cheaper tools available (avia, thx optimizer etc) to atleast get the results. but in the end its still our own personal taste that will dictate if the result of the calibration (professional or diy) is acceptable to us.

btw, i used avia and doc oreo's blue filter, i actually find the color after adjustment better, but for the contrast, too high for my taste, kaya i toned it down to my personal preference.

ABCmotorparts · « **Reply #134 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 03:54 PM »

Quote from: Munskie on Jul 14, 2008 at 02:08 PM

Post ko dito Mark.......

As part of improvements in my HT, I had it professionally calibrated. It was my first time to have some professional help regarding calibration, and it was done by fellow kabalen sir alvinthx2.

Alvin concentrated first on the video calibration of my Panasonic AE2000, as I was tasked by him to put some bass traps before he could do the audio calibration.

His software, Datacolor Colorfacts, first analyzed my default settings on my PJ. The initial RGB color tracking analysis revealed that I have high levels of blue, and low levels of red. He tweaked the color management menu of my PJ, and after some tweaking, he was able to correct the RGB levels of my PJ.

color tracking analysis chart, after calibration, showing the near perfect levels of RGB

color temperature tracking analysis chart, after calibration. Alvin adjusted it to 6484k, wala pang 1% off sa ideal color temperature of 6504k or D65.

Luminance tracking across greyscale level, near perfect rin....

Alvin said that most PJs are overly saturated in their default color settings. But it results in unnatural skin and color tones, which is unrealistic. After some demo material, and some films I am familiar were shown, I was truly satisfied with what Alvin has done. The differences might not be huge to the untrained eye, but this calibration showed me how having the right levels of colors, greyscale, and color temperature contributes in having the best PQ possible out of my equipment.

and the Before and After Screenshots

Notice how the before shots are cooler, or have high levels of blue color. Much better skin tones on the right.

Ang laki ng improvement sa clarity and color rendition...

Nice sir,..!

pchin · « **Reply #135 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 04:11 PM »

Quote from: streetsmart on Jul 14, 2008 at 01:44 PM

However, if you are talking about greyscale and color temperature, you definitely need instruments because it will be impossible to do this by eye alone. And in my experience, the difference can be huge. You can take a look at the "before" and "after" calibration pics of Munskie's pj at the HT Gallery and you will note a huge difference.

Mark is right. Based on the article (written by Kal):

A common misconception is that you can achieve proper greyscale by using the standard display controls such as hue, colour, and contrast. Not true. These controls have little to no effect on greyscale. To do greyscale calibration you need to adjust the amount of primary colours (red, green, blue) at each level of brightness from black to white. Most advanced TVs or projectors have menus where these controls are offered. These are the controls that we will be adjusting with the help of a colorimeter and specialized software.

Some people will try and claim to do accurate greyscale calibration by eye but the human eye is actually a very poor tool for measuring light output or colours. The results will be far from ideal. Someone who's been using a colorimeter may get pretty good at doing it by eye after many years, but then they've had years of experience with a colorimeter.

********************

So I guess home theater enthusiast who wants to get the absolute best picture out of their HDTV or projector should give it a try.

leomar · « **Reply #136 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 04:35 PM »

napansin ko lang, when i used avia2 dvd to calibrate my 32" lcd tv on my ps3 connected thru hdmi, hindi ko magalaw ung "hue" settings ng tv... naka-grey siya, weird ba un o ganun talaga kapag hdmi connection?

anyway, I tried to calibrate my display pero parang mas gusto ko pa rin ung "warm color setting" ng tv ko kesa nung nag-adjust ako using the avia2 disk

comparing the calibrated display on dvd vs hd/bluray playback, may difference ba? on another hand, if you are going to play HD on your display, kelangan pa bang i cablirate?

oReOsHaKe · « **Reply #137 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 04:39 PM »

Quote from: leomar on Jul 14, 2008 at 04:35 PM

napansin ko lang, when i used avia2 dvd to calibrate my 32" lcd tv on my ps3 connected thru hdmi, hindi ko magalaw ung "hue" settings ng tv... naka-grey siya, weird ba un o ganun talaga kapag hdmi connection?

Hue setting will grey out if HDMI connection gamit mo. You can adjust this only if component or composite connection gamit mo.. This is the case for my Samsung DLP TV.

leomar · « **Reply #138 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 04:54 PM »

Quote from: oReOsHaKe on Jul 14, 2008 at 04:39 PM

Hue setting will grey out if HDMI connection gamit mo. You can adjust this only if component or composite connection gamit mo.. This is the case for my Samsung DLP TV.

a ganun pala talaga, parang dvi sa pc monitor, hindi magalaw ung "color settings"

thanks sir oreoshake!

iiinas · « **Reply #139 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 05:01 PM »

Quote from: leomar on Jul 14, 2008 at 04:35 PM

comparing the calibrated display on dvd vs hd/bluray playback, may difference ba? on another hand, if you are going to play HD on your display, kelangan pa bang i cablirate?

i think whether playing hd or sd, calibration is necessary, because calibration corrects the greyscale, temperature and color of your panel, the resolution of the source is not touch in calibration. so even if you are playing hd, if your panel or pj is not calibrated the picture may appear too bright or washed out.

but as you said, if you are comfortable with some of the settings in your panel, then i guess you can use that. it can happen, that a panel or pj has default setting's that is close to a calibrated panel. when that happens, the panel/pj actually get extra marks from reviewers or critics. and lucky are the owners of such panels, it just means they don't have to get professional help or diy the panels when they purchase it. just plug and play.

Munskie · « **Reply #140 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 05:11 PM »

Quote from: iiinaslao on Jul 14, 2008 at 03:50 PM

but as any standard, it might not be acceptable to some. as they say there is no perfect standard.

personally, if i can afford it, professional help is the way to go. if we can't have or afford it (like me! ) then i try to get cheaper tools available (avia, thx optimizer etc) to atleast get the results. but in the end its still our own personal taste that will dictate if the result of the calibration (professional or diy) is acceptable to us.

I do agree. Some people like film like PQ. Some like sharp digital-like PQ. Some like too-vibrant colors etc..... In the end, its in the viewer's taste.

But I would still recommend a properly calibrated screen. At least you get to see what it is like. You can always adjust the settings to suit your taste. Whether DIY or professional calibration, thats the viewer's decision.

Munskie · « **Reply #141 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 05:18 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2008 at 03:28 PM

Based on the comments so far, results will depend on the display used. Calibration is useful for projectors, but not so much for plasma panels.

In my situation, I agree. I both have a plasma and a PJ. The improvement in the calibrated PQ is so much noticeable in the huge screen. Ive tried a basic DIY calibration in my plasma thru AVIA, and the improvement was subtle. And it was really hard doing calibration with those color filters.

Munskie · « **Reply #142 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 05:25 PM »

Lets not forget viewing conditions in the room. Do your calibration in the room settings that you prefer.......dark room, brightly lit room etc.

alvinthx2 · « **Reply #143 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 07:05 PM »

A few years back, almost no set is close to D6500 even at their best setting. You can only get accurate monitors with BROADCAST quality monitors which are 3 to 5 times the price of regular TV sets for the same size. the reason is because the light environment at the sales floor of most appliance chainstores around the world are very bright and mostly fluorescent lighting is used. To lure potential customers to at least look at the DEMO set, it should be bright enough to catch your attention. Most sets are calibrated at around 9000k(Toshiba), 2500K off the desired color temperature. If you have been at a TV showroom with multiple displays and having just 1 program, you will notice that NO set have the same color. Manufacturers did not follow the Standard color values because a calibrated set WILL NOT standout compared with sets with boosted color temperatures. When you bring the set to a LIVING ROOM environment, the color and contrast sucks because its too bright, too blue and just looks different from what you saw at the Sales floor.

That being said, we have 2 color standards that are followed by SD and HD formats. REC601 for HD and REC709 for HD. If we do not have these standards,our DVD's and Blu-ray will look like our CABLE TV, one channel too red and the other too blue and anything in between. Most cable operators do not bother to do calibration. Fortunatelly, SD and HD authoring follows these standards.

Now for our TV displays, still most units are at around 7000 to 7500K. You can only adjust this value by going to the manufacturers service menu. You can easily mess up your set and voiding warranty if you do not know what you are doing. Calibration involves adjusting the GAIN and BIAS of the 3 primary colors. This can be done with the right software and a Spectrophotometer. Not all meters are the same, the more expensive PR650 by PhotoResearch Lab can cost around 1 million pesos. It's accuracy is second to none. I have tried Spyder's meter and the results are very different from the Gretag Macbeth Eye1Pro meter that I am using now. Calibration can optimize the display to its full potential. It can set the dynamic range to its maximum level assuring the greatest contrast level that the set can achieve.

Its very hard to convince a person who has not seen a properly calibrated display but when he see's one,its addictive. He will become highly critical of sets that are off the mark.

raptor · « **Reply #144 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 07:42 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2008 at 11:59 AM

I just use a free THX Optimizer. I need test patterns only for brightness and tint. For other criteria, I can calibrate without the help of test patterns.

In my view, calibration tools are necessary for inexperienced owners.

But for the more experienced users, calibration tools can be useful as a starting point. After that, settings should still be finalized manually.

Sir Barrister,

I've heard that the THX Optimizer is available as extra on some DVD movies - please confirm if this correct. Also please give some sample popular DVD titles with the THX Optimizer if that is the case... I actually bought the THX blue film glasses, but still do not have the software to calibrate my plasma.

TIA

streetsmart · « **Reply #145 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 08:41 PM »

Quote from: raptor on Jul 14, 2008 at 07:42 PM

Sir Barrister,

I've heard that the THX Optimizer is available as extra on some DVD movies - please confirm if this correct. Also please give some sample popular DVD titles with the THX Optimizer if that is the case... I actually bought the THX blue film glasses, but still do not have the software to calibrate my plasma.

TIA

Lots (maybe all?) THX DVD's. For example, all the Star Wars DVD's.

streetsmart · « **Reply #146 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 08:50 PM »

Alvin, thanks for the post! Very informative.

Just to make a small OT but related contribution - In the same way that the video of movies are produced according to certain standards, the same is true for audio. IIRC, the reference produces an 85 db level for conversation at the listening position. In most AVR's, this would translate to 75 db for test tones at the 0 db position.

If you want to hear the audio with the same balance of bass, treble and mids as the mixer intended, you need to listen at reference levels. Or, you can get a receiver with Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Volume (but that's a totally different topic).

I guess the point is that there are standards for audio and video and we should try to meet those standards so we know what was the intention of whoever mastered the disc. After that, we can still tweak video and audio to our particular taste.

barrister · « **Reply #147 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 10:34 PM »

That makes a lot of sense, sir streetsmart.

Thanks also to sir alvinthx2 for the great post.

Quote from: raptor on Jul 14, 2008 at 07:42 PM

I've heard that the THX Optimizer is available as extra on some DVD movies - please confirm if this correct. Also please give some sample popular DVD titles with the THX Optimizer if that is the case... I actually bought the THX blue film glasses, but still do not have the software to calibrate my plasma.

Sir streetsmart is right. It's found on THX-certified DVDs released since 2000. Popular titles are Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

But note that THX Optimizer includes only the most basic calibrations. And according to THX, it's also disc-specific, meaning that you are supposed to use that particular Optimizer only for the movie found on the same disc. Don't ask me why. I don't get it either

.

Quote from: alvinthx2 on Jul 14, 2008 at 07:05 PM

Calibration involves adjusting the GAIN and BIAS of the 3 primary colors. This can be done with the right software and a Spectrophotometer. Not all meters are the same, the more expensive PR650 by PhotoResearch Lab can cost around 1 million pesos. It's accuracy is second to none. I have tried Spyder's meter and the results are very different from the Gretag Macbeth Eye1Pro meter that I am using now.

... And I thought the Spyder was state-of-the-art equipment

.

Does this mean that a Spyder calibration is useless because of its questionable accuracy?

raptor · « **Reply #148 on:** Jul 14, 2008 at 11:54 PM »

Quote from: streetsmart on Jul 14, 2008 at 08:41 PM

Lots (maybe all?) THX DVD's. For example, all the Star Wars DVD's.

Thanks ... i'll check my DVD's

pchin · « **Reply #149 on:** Jul 15, 2008 at 12:38 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2008 at 10:34 PM

Does this mean that a Spyder calibration is useless because of its questionable accuracy?

Not totally useless in that sense. It's just being the cheapest in the market but the result is less accurate plus time consuming as it takes more time to measure.

The next one level up: the Eye-One Display is a much better colorimeter but cost more than Spyder (still much much cheaper than those hi-end meter).