Author Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines  (Read 85002 times)

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Offline garyMD

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #90 on: Aug 17, 2009 at 10:48 AM »
the fact that they roamed naked shows that there was no free will involved. I agree the before that fruit was eaten, their mind was that of a 3 yr old or less.

  they're supposed to be kids and enjoy  paradise. with no malice , whatsoever. but eating the fruit of knowledge gave them the consciousness of what's between man and woman and how it is to defy God.

  as said, i guess that's how God was testing us humans;given  their knowledge,  will we try to be better than God? which for me, that's the down fall of humanity. when they tried to be better than God and act as if they are God.
« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2009 at 03:55 PM by garyMD »
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Offline ralfy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #91 on: Aug 17, 2009 at 01:48 PM »
The catch is not free will but the burden of self-consciousness. That's why the first thing they realized was that they were naked.

And then there's the second tree....


Offline jerix

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #92 on: Aug 17, 2009 at 03:10 PM »
The catch is not free will but the burden of self-consciousness. That's why the first thing they realized was that they were naked.

And then there's the second tree....



The second tree grew so fast and big after Adam realized they were naked...and it was the reason why we are all in this world now  ;)
« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2009 at 03:11 PM by jerix »
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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #93 on: Aug 17, 2009 at 09:43 PM »
Some people interpret the Genesis portion of the Bible as evidence that being naked is sinful and we should all be ashamed of our bodies.

Offline garyMD

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #94 on: Aug 17, 2009 at 11:31 PM »
Some people interpret the Genesis portion of the Bible as evidence that being naked is sinful and we should all be ashamed of our bodies.

  i don't think it's about being ashamed of it. it's more of knowing now that it has to be covered. there is the knowledge now about malice, of covering our body just because.  8)
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Offline jerix

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #95 on: Aug 18, 2009 at 07:40 AM »
It was malice that developed their urge for sex. They had sex so the human race began.
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Offline garyMD

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #96 on: Aug 18, 2009 at 08:59 AM »
not only that.

it's where we get a glimpse to the extent of what humans can do when they got knowledge. now, we even question His very existence.  ::)
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Offline jerix

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #97 on: Aug 18, 2009 at 09:02 AM »
So human race after Adam and Eve was just the reason of that greatest sin. How noble that sin was.
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Offline garyMD

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #98 on: Aug 18, 2009 at 09:17 AM »
So human race after Adam and Eve was just the reason of that greatest sin. How noble that sin was.

  what if we think the other way?

  i'm sure God will like too, for Adam and Eve to have kids. pero in a different way. ano kaya ang kulay nating human race kung lahat naging mabait? hehehehehe
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Offline tigkal

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #99 on: Aug 18, 2009 at 09:59 AM »
There was already a plan for reproduction when Eve was made from Adam. It was not malice that was given to Adam that made them covered themselves but the intelligence to compare those around them and themselves, just like toddlers. And it was in this comparison that the knew they were naked. Because they are the only ones who were naked around them. And when God knew they were ashamed for being naked, He realized that Man was given the intelligence/knowledge by you know who. That is why sometimes when I see myself in the mirror fully clothed, I wonder why the bible does not speak well of the serpent when in fact it was the serpent who gave us the intellect and knowledge. The Old Testament God wanted man to follow orders without explanations and questions not allowed.

Offline ralfy

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #100 on: Aug 18, 2009 at 12:59 PM »
From what I remember, the first tree is that of knowledge, and it is a knowledge that involves self-consciousness. That is why the duo became ashamed when they discovered that they were naked. It may be a metaphor for human beings who are ashamed because of their physical appearance, because they are poor, because they made the wrong choices, etc. Being ashamed of many things is a burden that many carry throughout life.

Also, I think Adam and Eve were already immortal before they ate fruit from the tree of knowledge. Perhaps one can imagine that immortality would be bliss if one were not trapped by the burden of materiality and self-consciousness (one book to consider is Kafka's Metamorphosis), but that is not the case for Adam and Eve. Perhaps the only way out of that is immortality in another form of consciousness that is beyond human existence, where there is no self-consciousness and shame.

In any event, the first part of the story (i.e., involving the results of eating fruit from the tree of knowledge) may also be seen as existentialist. Hence, Fr. Barron's point in the video linked earlier.

Offline tigkal

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #101 on: Aug 19, 2009 at 07:32 AM »
Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden lest they eat the fruit of the tree of life, which would then give them immortality. Because there were two trees that were off limits,the tree of knowledge and the tree of life.

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #102 on: Oct 14, 2009 at 04:04 PM »
I just watched "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" and I find the argument for Intelligent Design valid.


Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #103 on: Oct 14, 2009 at 11:19 PM »
I just watched "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" and I find the argument for Intelligent Design valid.



You do realize the CATHOLIC CHURCH herself has rejected Intelligent Design, right? Intelligent Design is NOT science.

Offline vx2

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #104 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 12:13 AM »
You do realize the CATHOLIC CHURCH herself has rejected Intelligent Design, right? Intelligent Design is NOT science.

Heh. Since when did the Catholic Church have any say on which science is science?


Oh, right. Since the dark ages. Classifying the scientists as witches and all.
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2009 at 12:15 AM by vx2 »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #105 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 08:50 AM »
You do realize the CATHOLIC CHURCH herself has rejected Intelligent Design, right? Intelligent Design is NOT science.

Ive never actually read on the Catholic Church's stand on Intelligent Design, but I can understand why they would reject that based on the scriptures.

If Intelligent Design is not science, then Biology and Engineering should not be scientific as well. 

My appreciation of Intelligent Design is that there seems to be valid line of reasoning to incorporate the idea of evolution and the existence of God.  That's all.  It is understandable why the extreme Darwinists and the devoutly religious would refuse such idea.

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #106 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 11:04 AM »
 as said, i guess that's how God was testing us humans;given  their knowledge,  will we try to be better than God? which for me, that's the down fall of humanity. when they tried to be better than God and act as if they are God.

Interesting. 

Am I correct, sir, in my understanding of your post, that the desire to acquire knowledge and to better one's self will lead humanity to its doom as this leads humans to a desire to be "better than God"?


Offline barrister

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #107 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 11:40 AM »
Ive never actually read on the Catholic Church's stand on Intelligent Design, but I can understand why they would reject that based on the scriptures.


Has the Roman Catholic Church rejected Intelligent Design?  Hindi naman siguro.  Actually, there is no official Roman Catholic Doctrine concerning the issue of Intelligent Design.  

The most famous statement from the Vatican on that issue is probably Father George Coyne's comment criticizing the proponents of the theory of Intelligent Design.  Fr. Coyne reportedly remarked at a conference in Florence that "Intelligent design isn't science, even if it pretends to be".  All Fr. Coyne meant was that if the theory is introduced in schools, it should be taught in religion classes, not science classes.

However, a statement that merely came from "the Vatican" is not considered a statement in behalf of the Roman Catholic Church unless the statement officially came from the Holy See.  At the time, Fr. Coyne was the director of the Vatican Observatory, a position that can hardly be considered an official source of Roman Catholic Doctrine.

Of course, Roman Catholic Doctrine still retains the creation view.  Pope Benedict XVI complements the doctrine by issuing statements to the effect that creation and evolution are not necessarily contradictory.  

Fr. Coyne's statement does not contradict the creation doctrine in any way.  Yet the public is misled by newspaper accounts reporting that the Vatican allegedly rejects the theory of Intelligent Design.  

In 2006, Fr. Coyne was removed from his position as director of the Vatican Observatory.  He was replaced by Argentine Jesuit Father Jose Funes, an expert on disk galaxies.  The Vatican did not state the reason for his replacement.

« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2009 at 01:00 PM by barrister »

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #108 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 12:20 PM »
I read the first portion and it seems we are all talking about the design that God has for man.

Then a supposition that God is a big mast of temperature
a God that is not omniscient
a God who treat a 3 year old kids like adult

I dont believe Evolution ... because even Darwin himself  who formulated it ... was not able to prove it!
But since am talking about belief system, of course, this will tend to be "to each his own" aka audiofools' den.

Darwin believed a "big Bang" ... which scientifically ... is a flawed reasoning.
Then followed by evolution ... of which missing link(s) were never found!
Which could explain the gossip that Darwin recanted all his works in his deathbed ... or the event was suppressed by those he duped.


And who said our world is more than 200,000 years old ... or 2M years old ...
If even scientist can not agree on accurate dating method ... then who can give an accurate reading?
Those touted dating methods have been used to date young bones and reported thousand years!


And who ever said that eating the fruit itself (in the middle of the garden) enabled Adam & Eve to be "aware"? It is like saying that the strength of Samson lies in his "hair"!  ;D


God is not time-bound ... so as not to know what Adam & Eve will do ... to Him, the first beginning and the end of the world is basically one and the same ... if you can not fathom that, I can not as well ... because we just have our limited mind ... unless you are god yourself.


My learning in my faith tells me that ... at the creation of man & woman, God already made a grand design ... because he knew already what is to take place ... and what will be the glorious ending. Which is why God knew what Pharaoh will do ... and when His people can go out of egypt - where they should go - etc etc.


I think man do not desire to be better than God (only applicable to those who believe in God) ... Since the pre-historic ages, man desires to communicate with gods ... on their own terms ... on their own understanding ... so you have your various religions and what have you.

For those who do not believe in god ... the bible also speaks explicitly about them ... sorry for this but am just quoting 'The f**ls said in his heart, there is no God!' (Proverbs) ... they are just defying God ... but this things are irrelevant ... because their end is also known already at this point ... "that at the feet of Jesus, every knee will bow" ... yes folks, even the knee of Satan himself - the fallen great archangel!


Going to the big bang theory, and darwin's evolution ... studying them well seriously will end you like C.S. Lewis who dont believe in God inititally. But even the reasoning of science will point you back to God - and this is the clear declaration of the Bible - the very creation of God will be the very witnesses that will testify against you when you face your own judgment day! - because from the stand point of the big bang theory, and that of evolution, the creation speaks so clearly ... that big bang is a big lie (based on science) ... and evolution is also a big lie (based in science as well)!


I have time also when I have difficulty believing what I believe today before ... the only assurance I have now is the nation Israel ... If the nation Israel have been wiped out from the map of the world permanently, then all my belief is in vain ... but as long as they are there, the Almighty God reigns regardless of anybody's belief ... for all the ancient prophesies will be fulfilled in them ... they are the time table ...
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2009 at 12:37 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline aHobbit

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #109 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 12:49 PM »
The big bang theory provides an explanation for the existence of the universe and everything in it.

This is simply not true ... the big bang theory did not explain how in the first place the first cell exist ... that's why, scientifically, this is a flawed presentation (Isaac newton) ... so they said ... suddenly there was a cell!
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Offline aHobbit

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #110 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 12:58 PM »

Well..thank goodness the mind is limited since it drives an individual to look for answers and use it more (for if ever the other faculties of the brain has been utilized, we probably would have discovered the reasons long before the time of copernicus) for a collective benefit.

Good for us;at least these scientists are still looking for answers,and still possess an inquisitive mind that we know from history has propelled man to discover or achieved scientific breakthroughs that have benefitted mankind.

....lastly...to each his own, we'll probably never know, maybe only in death, if the religious are correct, thank goodness for hell or purgatory, if otherwise, we'll probably not know in this lifetime.




On the contrary ... the mind is limitless ... and the very tehhnology we might be talking about here might have existed before when all human being is of one accord ... in the construction of tower of babel ...

and the bible recorded that the very reason it was destroyed by God, and human beings were separated by different language is because they are already doing what is supposed to be done at a latter part of human history.

and what they are doing can be looked 2 ways ... for the good of mankind ... in defiance of God!
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Offline sardaukar

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #111 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 03:15 PM »
Funny how science and the rigorous, quantifiable, reproducible scientific method is a big lie while an unverifiable old manuscript is inassailably true.

Offline JT

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #112 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 03:24 PM »
Let me share this article: The argument for the existence of God.

The question of whether there is a conclusive argument for the existence of God has been debated throughout history, with exceedingly intelligent people taking both sides of the dispute. In recent times, arguments against the possibility of God’s existence have taken on a militant spirit that accuses anyone daring to believe in God as being delusional and irrational. Karl Marx asserted that anyone believing in God must have a mental disorder that caused invalid thinking. The psychiatrist Sigmund Freud wrote that a person who believed in a Creator God was delusional and only held their beliefs due to a ‘wish fulfillment’ factor that produced what Freud considered to be their unjustifiable position. The philosopher Frederick Nietzsche bluntly said that faith equates to not wanting to know what is true. The voices of these three figures from history (along with others) are simply now parroted by a new generation of atheists who claim that a belief in God is intellectually unwarranted.

Is this truly the case? Is belief in God a rationally unacceptable position to hold? Is there a logical and reasonable argument for the existence of God? Outside of referencing the Bible, can a case for the existence of God be made that refutes the positions of both the old and new atheists and gives sufficient warrant for believing in a Creator? The answer is yes it can. Moreover, in demonstrating the validity of an argument for the existence of God, the case for atheism is shown to be intellectually weak.

To make an argument for the existence of God, we must start by asking the right questions. We begin with the most basic metaphysical question: “Why do we have something rather than nothing at all?” This is the basic question of existence—why are we here; why is the earth here; why is the universe here rather than nothing? Commenting on this point, one theologian has said, “In one sense man does not ask the question about God, his very existence raises the question about God.”

In considering this question, there are four possible answers to why we have something rather than nothing at all:

1. Reality is an illusion.
2. Reality is/was self-created.
3. Reality is self-existent (eternal).
4. Reality was created by something that is self-existent.

So, which is the most plausible solution? Let’s begin with reality being simply an illusion, which is what a number of eastern religions believe. This option was ruled out centuries ago by the philosopher Rene Descartes who is famous for the statement, “I think, therefore I am.” Descartes, a mathematician, argued that if he is thinking then he must ‘be.’ In other words, “I think, therefore I am not an illusion.” Illusions require something experiencing the illusion, and moreover, you cannot doubt the existence of yourself without proving your existence; it is a self-defeating argument. So the possibility of reality being an illusion is eliminated.

Next is the option of reality being self-created. When you study philosophy, you learn that there are things called ‘analytically false’ statements, which means they are false by definition. The possibility of reality being self-created is one of those types of statements for the simple reason that something cannot be prior to itself. If you created yourself, then you must have existed prior to you creating yourself, but that simply cannot be. In evolution this is sometimes referred to as ‘spontaneous generation’ —something coming from nothing—a position that few, if any, reasonable people hold to anymore simply because you cannot get something from nothing. Even the atheist David Hume said, “I never asserted so absurd a proposition as that anything might arise without a cause.” This being the case, the alternative of reality being self-created is ruled out.

Now we are left with only two choices—an eternal reality or reality being created by something that is eternal: an eternal universe or an eternal Creator. The 18th century theologian Jonathan Edwards summed up this crossroads:

• Something exists.
• Nothing cannot create something.
• Therefore, a necessary and eternal ‘something’ exists.

Notice that you must go back to an eternal ‘something.’ The atheist who derides the believer in God for believing in an eternal Creator must turn around and embrace an eternal universe; it is the only other door they can choose. But the question now is: where does the evidence lead? Does the evidence point to matter before mind or mind before matter?

To date, all key scientific and philosophical evidence points away from an eternal universe and toward an eternal Creator. From a scientific standpoint, honest scientists admit the universe had a beginning, and whatever has a beginning is not eternal. In other words, whatever has a beginning has a cause, and if the universe had a beginning, it had a cause. The fact that the universe had a beginning is underscored by evidence such as the second law of thermodynamics, the radiation echo of the big bang discovered in the early 1900’s, the fact that the universe is expanding and can be traced back to a singular beginning, and Einstein’s theory of relativity. All prove the universe is not eternal.

Further, the laws that surround causation speak against the universe being the ultimate cause of all we know for this simple fact: an effect must resemble its cause. This being true, no atheist can explain how an impersonal, purposeless, meaningless, and amoral universe accidentally created beings (us) who are full of personality and obsessed with purpose, meaning, and morals. Such a thing, from a causation standpoint, completely refutes the idea of a natural universe birthing everything that exists. So in the end, the concept of an eternal universe is eliminated.

Philosopher J. S. Mill (not a Christian) summed up where we have now come to: “It is self-evident that only Mind can create mind.” The only rational and reasonable conclusion is that an eternal Creator is the one who is responsible for reality as we know it. Or to put it in a logical set of statements:

• Something exists.
• You do not get something from nothing.
• Therefore a necessary and eternal ‘something’ exists.
• The only two options are an eternal universe and an eternal Creator.
• Science and philosophy have disproven the concept of an eternal universe.
• Therefore, an eternal Creator exists.

Former atheist Lee Strobel, who arrived at this end result many years ago, has commented: “Essentially, I realized that to stay an atheist, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Those leaps of faith were simply too big for me to take, especially in light of the affirmative case for God's existence … In other words, in my assessment the Christian worldview accounted for the totality of the evidence much better than the atheistic worldview.”

But the next question we must tackle is this: If an eternal Creator exists (and we have shown that He does), what kind of Creator is He? Can we infer things about Him from what He created? In other words, can we understand the cause by its effects? The answer to this is yes, we can, with the following characteristics being surmised:

• He must be supernatural in nature (as He created time and space).
• He must be powerful (incredibly).
• He must be eternal (self-existent).
• He must be omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it).
• He must be timeless and changeless (He created time).
• He must be immaterial because He transcends space/physical.
• He must be personal (the impersonal cannot create personality).
• He must be infinite and singular as you cannot have two infinites.
• He must be diverse yet have unity as unity and diversity exist in nature.
• He must be intelligent (supremely). Only cognitive being can produce cognitive being.
• He must be purposeful as He deliberately created everything.
• He must be moral (no moral law can be had without a giver).
• He must be caring (or no moral laws would have been given).

These things being true, we now ask if any religion in the world describes such a Creator. The answer to this is yes: the God of the Bible fits this profile perfectly. He is supernatural (Genesis 1:1), powerful (Jeremiah 32:17), eternal (Psalm 90:2), omnipresent (Psalm 139:7), timeless/changeless (Malachi 3:6), immaterial (John 5:24), personal (Genesis 3:9), necessary (Colossians 1:17), infinite/singular (Jeremiah 23:24, Deuteronomy 6:4), diverse yet with unity (Matthew 28:19), intelligent (Psalm 147:4-5), purposeful (Jeremiah 29:11), moral (Daniel 9:14), and caring (1 Peter 5:6-7).

One last subject to address on the matter of God’s existence is the matter of how justifiable the atheist’s position actually is. Since the atheist asserts the believer’s position is unsound, it is only reasonable to turn the question around and aim it squarely back at him. The first thing to understand is that the claim the atheist makes—‘no god’ which is what ‘atheist’ means—is an untenable position to hold from a philosophical standpoint. As legal scholar and philosopher Mortimer Adler says, “An affirmative existential proposition can be proved, but a negative existential proposition—one that denies the existence of something—cannot be proved.” For example, someone may claim that a red eagle exists and someone else may assert that red eagles do not exist. The former only needs to find a single red eagle to prove his assertion. But the latter must comb the entire universe and literally be in every place at once to ensure they have not missed a red eagle somewhere and at some time, which is impossible to do. This is why intellectually honest atheists will admit they cannot prove God does not exist.

Next, it is important to understand the issue that surrounds the seriousness of truth claims that are made and the amount of evidence required to warrant certain conclusions. For example, if someone puts two containers of lemonade in front of you and says that one may be more tart than the other, since the consequences of getting the more tart drink would not be serious, you would not require a large amount of evidence in order to make your choice. However, if to one cup the host added sweetener but to the other he introduced rat poison, then you would want to have quite a bit of evidence before you made your choice.

This is where a person sits when deciding between atheism and belief in God. Since belief in atheism could possibly result in irreparable and eternal consequences, it would seem that the atheist should be mandated to produce weighty and overriding evidence to support their position, but they cannot. Atheism simply cannot meet the test for evidence for the seriousness of the charge it makes. Instead, the atheist and those whom they convince of their position slide into eternity with their fingers crossed and hope they do not find the unpleasant truth that eternity does indeed exist and that such a place is an awfully long time to be wrong. As Mortimer Adler says, “More consequences for life and action follow from the affirmation or denial of God than from any other basic question.”

So does belief in God have intellectual warrant? Is there a rational, logical, and reasonable argument for the existence of God? Absolutely. While atheists such as Freud claim that those believing in God have a wish fulfillment desire, perhaps it is Freud and his followers who actually suffer from wish fulfillment: the hope and wish that there is no God, no accountability, and therefore no judgment. But refuting Freud is the God of the Bible who affirms His existence and the fact that a judgment is indeed coming for those who know within themselves the truth that He exists but suppress that truth (Romans 1:20). But for those who respond to the evidence that a Creator does indeed exist, He offers the way of salvation that has been accomplished through His Son, Jesus Christ: "John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13 NAS).

Let me share this url as well ...  http://www.reasons.org/


« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2009 at 04:03 PM by JT »

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #113 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 08:00 PM »
Funny how science and the rigorous, quantifiable, reproducible scientific method is a big lie while an unverifiable old manuscript is inassailably true.


it is even more absurd to misrepresent science by big bang theories and evolution theories ... as they are ... they are just theories ... and science are not about theories ... theories, in plain language is just "haka haka" ... in English - imagination! Science is simply ... Cause & Effect thingie ... In big bang, there is an EFFECT but can not account for the CAUSE!

If the big bang theory did not even attempt to explain the origin of their "first cell", dont try hard in saying big bang explained such! Their theories did not provide REPRODUCIBLE evidences but RIGOROUS hot air and QUANTIFIABLE paper documents ... in fact, they are not science at all due to missing proofs or evidences of all their claims.

I can not also say that I can verify God in that manuscript because I will not be able to see God ... in the same way that I will not be able to see your brain!

But in our democratic system ... anybody is free to claim that their ancestors are apes ... I have no problem with that ... mine is not though.
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2009 at 08:13 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline sardaukar

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #114 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 11:18 PM »
Ah I seem to have misunderstood your comment in parenthesis. I thought you meant it is a lie because it is based on science (i.e., that science is a lie). But now I think you in fact mean the opposite (that it is a lie because it is not based on science).

I wouldn't call a theory a lie. A theory is a work in progress. It evolves so to speak. As evidence is gathered it either confirms the theory or the theory will need to be reworked a bit. If evidence comes a long that totally disproves the theory then the theory is abandoned. I especially like that it's not simply down to faith.

Now regarding the big bang theory I never claimed that it explained the existence of life. It was a direct response to tigkal's comment:

Quote
How about the fact that atoms cannot be created, only transformed. Is that not a proof of a God creator?

Hence my reply:

Quote
The big bang theory provides an explanation for the existence of the universe and everything in it.




I have time also when I have difficulty believing what I believe today before ... the only assurance I have now is the nation Israel ... If the nation Israel have been wiped out from the map of the world permanently, then all my belief is in vain ... but as long as they are there, the Almighty God reigns regardless of anybody's belief ... for all the ancient prophesies will be fulfilled in them ... they are the time table ...

Lucky you were just born within the last 60 years. If you had lived 100, 500, 1000 years ago, before the state of Israel was created, what that would have done to your faith.

Oh and also, does that mean you're Jewish?
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2009 at 11:24 PM by sardaukar »

Offline oweidah

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #115 on: Oct 15, 2009 at 11:33 PM »

I have time also when I have difficulty believing what I believe today before ... the only assurance I have now is the nation Israel ... If the nation Israel have been wiped out from the map of the world permanently, then all my belief is in vain ... but as long as they are there, the Almighty God reigns regardless of anybody's belief ... for all the ancient prophesies will be fulfilled in them ... they are the time table ...

OT

buti hindi ako palestino kundi sabihin ko sa iyo na "inagaw" lang ng mga hudyo ang lupa ng mga palestino kaya nagkaron ng "israel"...

whether or not there's israel or the vatican, i still believe there is God.

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #116 on: Oct 16, 2009 at 01:43 AM »

it is even more absurd to misrepresent science by big bang theories and evolution theories ... as they are ... they are just theories ... and science are not about theories ... theories, in plain language is just "haka haka" ... in English - imagination! Science is simply ... Cause & Effect thingie ... In big bang, there is an EFFECT but can not account for the CAUSE!

There seems to be a misunderstanding of "theory" here.

Science accepts the fact that in order for theory to be law, there must be irrefutable mathematical and scientific evidence.  Canon Law, meanwhile, is based on a consensus of mostly old men believing in a religion that was far different from what the founder had in mind.  The only cause for canon to be modified (i.e. through ecumenical councils) is to prevent disagreement and discord among the believers, the majority of which seem to realize something new about their religion every century or so.  Whereas, for science to come up with a plausible theory, voluminous documentation is needed through experimentation and mathematical verification (esp. physics) using a logical process.

For example, Einstein's theory of relativity is listed and referred to as a "theory" yet experiments and observations on it probably amount to millions of pages of documentation.

Btw, "HAKA-HAKA", translated into English means opinion and/or assumption.

Offline jerix

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #117 on: Oct 16, 2009 at 07:24 AM »
If all things including us came from one source and that is GOD, sometime we will all go back to the source which is GOD. We may not actually be different from the source, just in a different form.  ;)
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #118 on: Oct 16, 2009 at 07:49 AM »
We had a family experience that sometimes returns to mind but hasn't changed my belief in the existence of God and afterlife anyways.

My aunt had a difficult childbirth and she died for a few minutes but fortunately was revived in time.   I was there in the hospital because his husband was overseas.  The doctor only told us about the whole thing after the delivery.

We didnt tell our Aunt until she has recovered enough, but when we did and asked her how the experience was, she said she saw "nothing", absolutely no memory or dream or vision of anything?  No bright light, no seeing her own body, no out of body experience.  It was as if she simply had a very deep sleep.


Offline aHobbit

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #119 on: Oct 16, 2009 at 12:27 PM »
HI sir sardaukar  ;)

Ah I seem to have misunderstood your comment in parenthesis. I thought you meant it is a lie because it is based on science (i.e., that science is a lie). But now I think you in fact mean the opposite (that it is a lie because it is not based on science).

I wouldn't call a theory a lie. A theory is a work in progress. It evolves so to speak. As evidence is gathered it either confirms the theory or the theory will need to be reworked a bit. If evidence comes a long that totally disproves the theory then the theory is abandoned. I especially like that it's not simply down to faith.

Okay, got you ,,, what I call a lie is that the big bang theory explain the origin of their first cell. They did not. This is just like one of that popular book which tried to explain the life of Jesus - He started in a theory (without basis) and from that theory, build up his case and ended in a conclusion. Such conclusion does not stand due to the fact that he built it in the wrong premise. Thus, all the conclusions made within the big bang and evolution has no substance to date because it is still premised on something that was still a theory (non-existent).

In all these years that they touted, not a single organism is conclusively presented as missing link ... in fact evolution can not categorically says when did evolution stopped ... and if it did not stop, how come how come the missing link is nowhere to be found ... In fact it should abound by this time of ours!!!

If people are so blinded by their opinion, no matter what you do for them, they will not change ... Sir JT presented the logic of philosopher ... and even using the norm of reasoning that science supports, no way you can end up concluding there is no God - you will end up on the contrary!!! ... This means atheist did not follow the rule of logic reasoning nor of science reasoning that's why they end up as atheist - in short, their atheism is based on flawed reasoning!



Now regarding the big bang theory I never claimed that it explained the existence of life. It was a direct response to tigkal's comment:


Sori about this ... though I resented classifying big bang and evolution as science which they are not! ... If I make a hypothesis today (the first portion of scientific reasoning) - will I call it science if I can not still validate my hypothesis? even after so many years it has been debated?



Lucky you were just born within the last 60 years. If you had lived 100, 500, 1000 years ago, before the state of Israel was created, what that would have done to your faith.

Oh and also, does that mean you're Jewish?


The state of Israel was made only recently ... if what you mean is the recognition the US and the UN gave it.

But Israel was in existence even before that as proven by the pentateuch - or original historical manuscript still being protected by Israel. If I just rely on the literal interpreation of biblical times, it can be estimated Israel existed 5,000 years ago.

As far as my faith is concerned ... I can not answer (actually I can but  I may be misunderstood) ... its only His wishes that I was born during this time ... however, even in the olden times of the history of Israel, non-Israelites are being mixed with them in various circumstances ... other than that I can not comment

The state of Israel is like our muslims in Mindanao - it is their ancestral land ... Palestinians (probably including arabs) and Israel are at odds since time immemorial dating back to their ancestor Ismael and Isaac - both sons of Abraham - the earlier as illegitimate while the latter the legitimate heir - so both of them have claims on that land.


Lastly, am not Jewish  ;D

The Jewish now, though I said the prophesises will be fulfilled in them, does not necesarily believe the totality of the Bible. They are still awaiting the coming of their Messaih!  ???
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