Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion

[bumblebee]

So, the Creator does not need a cause and therefore has no creator. While a so-called creator that has a creator will be governed by the laws of universe, there won’t be an infinite creator of the creator since they are limited by time and space and is therefore finite….and that is not the definition of GOD.

So is the single point that started the big bang that created this universe.

[dpogs]

Our bodies are made up of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and other elements, right?

any scientific basis/experiments/observation to support that idea? or just a belief?

[docelmo]

So is the single point that started the big bang that created this universe.

Ok, let's start with this "single point". What is the nature of this point? Was it ready existing before it created the universe or was it just the start? What materials did this point use to create the universe? Lastly if this point had a beginning in time then it follows that it had a cause before the point appeared. What caused the point? Which is which now? A timeless point before time or point that appeared at the beginning of time?

[bumblebee]

Ok, let's start with this "single point". What is the nature of this point? Was it ready existing before it created the universe or was it just the start? What materials did this point use to create the universe? Lastly if this point had a beginning in time then it follows that it had a cause before the point appeared. What caused the point? Which is which now? A timeless point before time or point that appeared at the beginning of time?

It's a very dense point. When the universe was still a point, wala pang time, wala pang space. Noong nag big bang na, nagstart na ang time. Nagkaroon na rin ng space. At dun pa lang nagkaroon ng laws of physics.

[bumblebee]

any scientific basis/experiments/observation to support that idea? or just a belief?

Seriously?

[dpogs]

yes, seriously... lahat ng nababasa ko is puro hypothesis lang eh... still no life sprout from non living things... sabi sabi lang ba na galing tayo sa non-living things... still no proof still hypothesis... still a faith based argument.

[docelmo]

It's a very dense point. When the universe was still a point, wala pang time, wala pang space. Noong nag big bang na, nagstart na ang time. Nagkaroon na rin ng space. At dun pa lang nagkaroon ng laws of physics.

Yeah, but the question is, was this point already present outside of time? Because it either the cause or just the start, it could not be both. Precisely since time has yet to begin you say the point is already there, then this point is eternal and outside of time. Thus this point is outside the laws of physics!

Or do you mean to say that the universe itself is eternal? Was the point the cause or part of the universe?

[dpogs]

It's a very dense point. When the universe was still a point, wala pang time, wala pang space. Noong nag big bang na, nagstart na ang time. Nagkaroon na rin ng space. At dun pa lang nagkaroon ng laws of physics.

definitely by faith...

[bumblebee]

Yeah, but the question is, was this point already present outside of time? Because it either the cause or just the start, it could not be both. Precisely since time has yet to begin you say the point is already there, then this point is eternal and outside of time. Thus this point is outside the laws of physics!

Or do you mean to say that the universe itself is eternal? Was the point the cause or part of the universe?

Yes, before the big bang, there's no time, no space, no matter, no laws of physics.

I don't know if the universe will be eternal. Recent discoveries suggest that dark energy will consume the universe.

[bumblebee]

yes, seriously... lahat ng nababasa ko is puro hypothesis lang eh... still no life sprout from non living things... sabi sabi lang ba na galing tayo sa non-living things... still no proof still hypothesis... still a faith based argument.

Bili kang karne. Weigh mo. Ilagay mo sa microwave. Cook hanggang tumigas or masunog. Weigh mo uli. Difference in weight is the water that's evaporated.

[docelmo]

Yes, before the big bang, there's no time, no space, no matter, no laws of physics.

I don't know if the universe will be eternal. Recent discoveries suggest that dark energy will consume the universe.

So the point had a beginning and as you say the universe will eventually be consumed, which means that the point and the universe are not eternal and had a beginning and therefore had to have a cause outside it, a cause outside of time and physics!

[bumblebee]

So the point had a beginning and as you say the universe will eventually be consumed, which means that the point and the universe had to have a cause outside it, a cause outside of time and physics!

The theory states that the point IS the beginning. There is nothing before it. If you will argue that God created the point, I won't have problems with that.

[dpogs]

Bili kang karne. Weigh mo. Ilagay mo sa microwave. Cook hanggang tumigas or masunog. Weigh mo uli. Difference in weight is the water that's evaporated.

ahhh... dahil sa ganyang observation naconclude na natin na nagkaroon ng buhay from non living things... very scientific nga...

kala ko naman paglabas sa microwave merong bagong buhay na organism... nag evaporate lang pala ang tubig...

[bumblebee]

ahhh... dahil sa ganyang observation naconclude na natin na nagkaroon ng buhay from non living things... very scientific nga...

kala ko naman paglabas sa microwave merong bagong buhay na organism... nag evaporate lang pala ang tubig...

You asked kung pano ko na-conclude that we're made from elements di ba? E, di ayan.

[barrister]

You asked kung pano ko na-conclude that we're made from elements di ba? E, di ayan.

Ganon ba yon?  O sige, bigyan kita ng elements, gumawa ka ng tao.
 
Kahit isang surot hindi ka makakagawa, e ... 

[docelmo]

The theory states that the point IS the beginning. There is nothing before it. If you will argue that God created the point, I won't have problems with that.

Sir, you can't have it both ways, having a beginning at same time no cause...
There could'nt be nothing before the point. Because the point and the universe had a beginning in time and therefore had a cause. So my scientific mind tells that there should be a cause to this finite universe, while my faith tells me that cause is GOD!

[leomarley]

scientific daw... eh paano naman nila maeexplain scientifically na living things sprout from non-living things

here you go dpogs:

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science-channel/40939-creating-synthetic-life-manmade-dna-video.htm

and if in case you want to know more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O80feu-8yh0

[bumblebee]

Sir, you can't have it both ways, having a beginning at same time no cause...
There could'nt be nothing before the point. Because the point and the universe had a beginning in time and therefore had a cause. So my scientific mind tells that there should be a cause to this finite universe, while my faith tells me that cause is GOD!

Sir, wala pa nga pong time during the point. Parang God, walang beginning, di ba? Difference lang sa Big Bang, yung point yung beginning; sa inyo, God.

[Tempter]

I believe in the bible only as a matter of faith, not as a matter of scientific fact.  The bible cannot be proven as a fact.
 
Do you believe evolution is a fact?

Your answer to my question is as good as mine to yours. Why? Because nothing has been proven yet. But I'd rather follow something that studies have been going on using logical thinking than the way of faith...

[SiCkBoY]

Just sharing this article:

Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not 'a magician with a magic wand'

Francis goes against Benedict XVI’s apparent support for 'intelligent design' - but does hail his predecessor’s 'great contribution to theology'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html

[barrister]

Your answer to my question is as good as mine to yours. Why? Because nothing has been proven yet. But I'd rather follow something that studies have been going on using logical thinking than the way of faith...

OK lang yon sir.  As long as you don't say evolutionism is a fact, I have no problem with that.
 
I believe evolutionism is based on speculation.  You believe the logical basis for evolutionism is sound, but not yet fully proven.
 
Let's leave it at that.
 

[Tempter]

OK lang yon sir.  As long as you don't say evolutionism is a fact, I have no problem with that.
 
I believe evolutionism is based on speculation.  You believe the logical basis for evolutionism is sound, but not yet fully proven.
 
Let's leave it at that.
 

Agreed.

[heisenbergman]

For the creationists on this thread: Do you think that creationism should be taught in school?

If yes, do you think it should be taught along the same lines as evolution - as part of the sciences - or as a part of religious studies?

[barrister]

scientific daw... eh paano naman nila maeexplain scientifically na living things sprout from non-living things

here you go dpogs:

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science-channel/40939-creating-synthetic-life-manmade-dna-video.htm

That is not life from non-life, it's just pre-existing life that continued living. 

They started with the bacterium Mycoplasma mycoides, synthesized its genome in a yeast cell, then transplanted the genome into a Mycoplasma capricolum cell (M. mycoides and M. capriolum are closely related species).

Result: after the modified M. capricolum cell divided, the cells of the bacterial colony that it formed contained only proteins characteristic of M. mycoides.

The new genome is not a great variation from the original genome.  It's actually a near-exact replica of the original, with just a few nonessential genes removed and a small number of sequence errors that don't affect the organism's function. 

It's a new technique that can give scientists the ability to make more numerous changes to a genome at once.  Maybe one day it can be useful for medical applications.

But it is definitely not a demonstration of "living things from non-living things."

[barrister]

For the creationists on this thread: Do you think that creationism should be taught in school?

You mean public schools (not private and religious schools), on the ground that it violates the principle of separation of church and state?
 
For me, no.  Creationism should be excluded from public schools because creationism is a religious view, and public funds should not be spent to promote a religious view.
 
What should be taught in all schools is the fact that evolutionism has many flaws, instead of merely teaching it as unassailable scientific fact. 

[docelmo]

Sir, wala pa nga pong time during the point. Parang God, walang beginning, di ba? Difference lang sa Big Bang, yung point yung beginning; sa inyo, God.

Sorry i am still not so clear about your point(no pun intended) you say that there was no time during the point. Then is this point eternal walang beginning? If thats the case then to you this is the "creator". While in the next sentence you say the point is the beginning of the big bang. These two separate nature of what ascribe to as the "point" and are not the same. However if you mean that the point is your cause then let's leave it at that.

 Its indeed difficult to wrap our mind to describe somthing not bounded by time and space, thus we have difficulty grasping the concept of this period much more the concept of a being outside of our realm.

[leomarley]

 Its indeed difficult to wrap our mind to describe somthing not bounded by time and space, thus we have difficulty grasping the concept of this period much more the concept of a being outside of our realm.

this is exactly my point. that's why i'm not into the whole religion thing but i am not particularly into the whole "there is no god" thing because we never really know with the tools and knowledge we have now.

[leomarley]

so, does the God of the bible still doesn't meet your criteria?

if your premise is the basic principle that he's from a different and higher plane of existence, then yeah. But wholly, the intervening God in the Bible still does not. do i believe that Jesus existed? he might have but i doubt his holiness.

[dpogs]

That is not life from non-life, it's just pre-existing life that continued living. 

They started with the bacterium Mycoplasma mycoides, synthesized its genome in a yeast cell, then transplanted the genome into a Mycoplasma capricolum cell (M. mycoides and M. capriolum are closely related species).

Result: after the modified M. capricolum cell divided, the cells of the bacterial colony that it formed contained only proteins characteristic of M. mycoides.

The new genome is not a great variation from the original genome.  It's actually a near-exact replica of the original, with just a few nonessential genes removed and a small number of sequence errors that don't affect the organism's function. 

It's a new technique that can give scientists the ability to make more numerous changes to a genome at once.  Maybe one day it can be useful for medical applications.

But it is definitely not a demonstration of "living things from non-living things."

and beside... assisted process yan (seems a work of an ID)... controlled environment... not natural process as evolutionist claimed...

[bumblebee]

Sorry i am still not so clear about your point(no pun intended) you say that there was no time during the point. Then is this point eternal walang beginning? If thats the case then to you this is the "creator". While in the next sentence you say the point is the beginning of the big bang. These two separate nature of what ascribe to as the "point" and are not the same. However if you mean that the point is your cause then let's leave it at that.

 Its indeed difficult to wrap our mind to describe somthing not bounded by time and space, thus we have difficulty grasping the concept of this period much more the concept of a being outside of our realm.

Sir, point lang talaga. Walang time, space, laws of physics (including causality), as in point lang talaga.