Topic: Your Thoughts on Philippine Audio Stores?

[levi]

Hamann,

   Racio told me what happened. Its so sad to hear what you experienced. I had a bad experience also but nothing close to what happened to you. I know that several members got turned off with his attitude also. I find him so arrogant and rude. He acts as if he is the best and he was even implying that he is doing us a favor when we buy from him. When I told him that I was able to purchased  several cd's from his store, his tone changed. It was his saleslady who was always there whenever I buy. Anyway, just dont mind him, its his loss not yours.

Levi

[bently]

Hamann,

how rude and unprofessional.
there is no excuse for his behavior!
i would definitely boycott Ceratec and would also advise others to do so.

bently

[gaol]

At this point he raised his voice and told me: Can't you see I'm talking to a customer?!;

You should have pointed out to him, "Hey, I'm a customer too," regardless of whether you buy something from him right there and then, or not. No one deserves that kind of treatment, especially from the store owner himself.

GAOL

[ariel]

i also agree to avoid that shop. so far my experience with ceratec is not so good. the owner or whoever he is, is really not helpful and he will look at you suspiciously as if you will steal something.

[banzai]

Hey Hamann,

I don't know if you remember me but I bought my AVIA disc from you.

Anyway, you will get your revenge when you see his shop close down from lack of customers. Idiots like this guy will not last in business.

Hope you do not run him over with your BMW when you see him crossing the street.

[groucho]

I'm with you guys.  We don't have to receive any of that guy's Ceratec's dirt.  Let's ignore his shop.

[Superman]

i had a similar experience pero di sing-grabe kay hamann...i was inquiring about the chesky CDs on display...i was actually looking for rebecca pidgeon and christy baron around 3 months ago...the saleslady didn't even know the price of each CD and had to consult her boss (the one always sitting down on the couch without even entertaining customers coming in)...when i asked the guy about the price...his answer was...MEDYO MAHAL YAN COMPARED TO ORDINARY CDs...medyo nanliit ang tingin ko kasi parang sinabi niyang di ko kay bilhin...tumingin na lang ako ng masama...pero parang nag-bak-off siya and offered if i wanted to hear his athena speakers...

very rude and arrogant people should not be patronized...i'm sure justice will be served!

 

[Hamann]

banzai: hey! well actually if I do see him outside I'd be so tempted to run him over. I really do hope you guys won't have to endure what I went through. You can really grow a lot of gray hairs with people like that.

[MeowPao]

I think you can complain to the SM Megamall management. If I were treated that way, I would have gone to the SM admin office immediately and file a complaint, and threaten to call my lawyer even. That guy should be kicked out of the mall.  

[Racio]

banzai: hey! well actually if I do see him outside I'd be so tempted to run him over. I really do hope you guys won't have to endure what I went through. You can really grow a lot of gray hairs with people like that.

Hey Ryan,

At least you got it out of your system bud. Although nothing like what you experienced has ever happened to me, I've also had my own run-ins w/ some audio gear dealers. Everyone should be extra careful in dealing w/ not only local dealers but also w/ online purveyors as well. If you may, let me account me short tale:
 
I once "met" a dealer thru an audio based forum much like what we have here. A rather swell guy, answered all my email queries w/ credence. We corresponded for about a month during w/c he offered me his firm's services to supply the item I required, I therefore gave him my business and even opted to have the item FedExed (w/c of course cost extra). Then I duly sent its payment thru a bank-to-bank fund transfer that took 6 working days to reflect on his company's account.

Prior to this juncture, everything was smooth savvy sailing, until I read the bottom part of his confirmation receipt of my payment that says: "We're sorry but we just recently ran out of stock of the said item." Yep, a whole month of email exchanges but only now did they choose to inform me about this. Then it went like: "Please give us two more weeks to replenish our inventory" or something in that line, and offered some freebies to calm the "imminent storm" if you will. Despite the prospect that they may just be pulling me torso down the drain, I said wha'da hell, I'll give it two more weeks then.

Waiting... waiting... waiting... and on the fortnight, I eagerly asked for an update, and guess what: still nil! I realized that I have me principles still in place after all, enough's enough, I immediately cancelled my order and asked for a refund. Well what do you know, they suddenly received their shipment and it was ready to be sent! But nah, I politely declined and insisted on my reimbursement. I gave my account's details and got the assurance that they'll get to it the soonest. A week had past, I checked my bank, the bank manager said "nada refund sir". The audio dealer persisted that they've transferred the funds... well ok. 2 weeks gone, still the same. At this point, I asked that perhaps some thing on their part was amiss since no credit from their bank was being reflected on my account. Guess what again? They sent it to the wrong party and gave a long winded apology! Quite charming isn't it? Well, a week later, my bank rang me up and confirmed the refund... albeit w/ about $60 missing.  

[notaku]

Hey, Hamann, I agree with you, that kind of treatment, in fact, that kind of behavior is unacceptable in anyone, businessman or not.

-But I can't just plain condemn the guy.  Please listen to my story:

The first time I went inside the Ceratec shop was 4-5 months ago.  I just happened to notice his CDs, is all; the shop was empty at the time, except for that same person whose behavior you were telling us about.  I greeted him-he just nodded-I asked permission to look at his stuff, and he gave it.  I quickly found something interesting-the Jazz At The Pawnshop XRCD, not exactly thick on the ground locally.  I turned to him-and his face was all lit up, smiling, I'd like to believe it wasn't at the prospect of a sale but because I'd picked that particular CD.  He asked:  "Would you care to listen to it first?"  He motioned to a setup consisting of British Art Audio tube amplifiers, a pair of German Ceratec loudspeakers, and a Rotel DVD-Audio player-it was my turn to smile, of course I said yes!  

I ended up spending three hours-THREE hours-during which we argued back and forth about the merits of this speaker brand and that, tube vs. SS, Miles Davis vs. everybody else, incidentally we also discovered our mutual admiration for Ozzy Osbourne, etc.  Needless to say, that was NOT the last time I bought from Ceratec, nor the last time we talked that long-I now have my own pair of Ceratec speakers, which the owner delivered HIMSELF.  We ate pizza together at my house.

That first time I showed up at his shop, I was wearing my usual malling attire:  T-shirt, denim shorts, and slippers.  Not D&G or Emporio-a desperately jologs Bob Marley tee from Top 40, battered fake Levi's, and 80 peso sandals from World Balance.  I wasn't even wearing a watch nor waving around no cellphone-and I'm the LAST person you'd suspect of having Chinese or mestizo ancestry.  At some other dealers I've visited, the sales staff practically shoved me out of the premises.  The guards manning the SM entrances take one look at me-and sneer.  

The guy at Ceratec-a person of obviously mestizo lineage at least twice my age-NEVER did.

But that does not constitute my defense of him-nope, as someone acutely aware of the real conditions prevailing in our so-called "economy" these days, well, I can't help sympathizing with the little guy.  And little guy he is-if MY employers, ranked one of the 15 strongest organizations around, people whose products you see around you every day, are having THIS much trouble making or even trying to BORROW money (and I should know 'coz that's MY job-believe me, if you think that Ceratec dude's nasty, get a load of my boss)...imagine how it is for someone trying to sell essentially just his dreams, the things he LOVES.  Heck, he only matters to us because we happen to share...

As adults, we are expected not only to fight for our rights but to respect the rights of others-even during our weaker moments, MORESO during our weaker moments.  I am going to talk to him about THIS.

[Hamann]

Thanks for the input. Its understood that everyone has both their good and bad sides. I don't doubt your story, but I cannot forgive him for what he did to me. It doesn't matter what his good side is, in no way can it justify his bad behaviour to me and to other people who have had bad experiences in his shop.

If you do actually get to talk to him, do everybody a favor and let him know that I am not the only one who has gone through what is probably the worst case of customer service ever.

[The Stig]

hey notaku, baka he has the hots for you

just kidding

[groucho]

Yeah, notaku, tell Ceratec to read this thread.

[MeowPao]

hey notaks, baka he has the hots for you

just kidding

Hahahahah.. lagot ka Mibs..hehehe  

Seriously, Notaku, tell him to read this thread. He may have treated you right, but it seems that you are the exception.

[The Stig]

its alright meow,  i discussed it with notaku last night and even he can't explain the niceness that the ceratec guy showed him. i've seen the guy myself and although i never experienced the treatment that hamann got, i'm pretty sure he's capable of it

[Jermi]

Hamann,

I would have to agree 100% with Meowpao.  I see that your a man of respectable means.  This is my suggestion and if you follow it, I think this Ibanez dude would regret doing what he did to you:

1.  You have to understand that SM sets very strict standards of behavior for their tenants, they have rules and regulations for everything from dress codes to promptness of opening of stores etc

2.  Have a lawyer friend of yours type up a brief account of what happened to you.  I sincerely think that what happened to you borders on harrasment, slander and oral defamation.

3.  We ALL know that you will not seriously pursue a legal case (or will you), but make the letter sound very firm and strong.

4.  The letter will be addressed to SM, cc Ceratec (Attn:  Paul Ibanez), the letter would basically be a formal inquiry whether SM knows about how Ibanez treats their customers, your atty. might say something like, "My client has gathered some preliminary testimonial evidence of similar treatment from other customers..."  What the letter will "officially" be asking is, if SM knows and if SM has done something about it to protect *their* mall customers.

The letter doesn't necessarily have to be from a law office, that would cost you money.  It can be in any letterhead, but signed by your atty. friend, its completely but is designed to do a certain degree of "discomfor" for the aggressor.

If you follow the step I've outlined above, I GUARANTEE you, that guy will be in for some trouble.  Yari siya, Hamann.  I really hate customers getting such shabby treatment from shops...I really hate it!

Hamann, am really serious about this...pls keep me on the loop PM me for updates on your "case"...

[Hamann]

Ok I'll seriously consider it. My dad actually asked me if I wanted to do anything, and with him being a lawyer, I'm sure what he meant was to take legal action.

I guess this is the most civilized way I could get back at this most uncouth individual.

[notaku]

Hey, Hamann, I just got back from Ceratec-the guy says he did, to put it gently, overreact, but says he did notice your BMW-Williams F1 jacket-unfortunately because he's a tifosi and so detests Juan Pablo Montoya.  Of course he has his own story and here it is-in your own words:  

I just came from Ceratec at the 5th floor of Megamall, and as it says above, I had just had a horrible experience. I went in his shop, and there was one guy sitting on the couch listening to some cd's with the guy who looked at the owner just standing around.

Well, you're right, you did arrive in the middle of an equipment audition-that's pretty much the ritual you can expect to see:  Loud music playing with the customer and the dealer paying complete attention.  

As it was my first visit, I was surprised to see that his shop did not have much, so I just proceeded to browse through his CD's. After a couple of minutes, I already found it strange that he was acting as if I wasn't there at all. So I went to the other side of his shop and looked at the display of speakers and home theater chairs. I turned around just to catch him looking at me suspiciously then shifted his gaze, as if he didn't want me to see that he was observing my movements. I went back to look at his cd's, and by this time I had already spent more than ten minutes in his shop.

This reminds me of a Kurosawa movie, Rashomon:  Diff. people witnessing the same thing happening, and of course offering up diff. interpretations of what they've seen.  It always helps to have the facts:

Ceratec is a small, rectangular-shaped shop with the CD display on the side nearest the entrance, a couch in the middle, and a set of home theater chairs on the other side; the main display pair of speakers are also in the middle, facing the couch from the opposite wall with obviously not much space between them.  A person crossing this cramped space to get to the other side will actually have to avoid tripping on the feet of anybody sitting on the couch-and if he happens to cross that space in the middle of a full-blown audition, he will probably get an irritated if not "suspicious" look from both the dealer and the customer.  Is this what happened?-I sincerely doubt that a person toting a Nokia 7650 could ever fall under a different kind of suspicion.

-At this point your stories briefly go on separate trajectories before rejoining:  

Not wanting to go there empty handed I decided to ask him what I came there for.

From your recollection of things, this is when the fireworks begin; what's so bewildering is that despite the above observations absolutely nothing you've mentioned before this point is any sane cause to provoke the explosive reaction you received-if that's the whole story then you really were face-to-face with a total fruitcake!  

-I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt where a person's sanity is concerned so the question needs answering:  Is there something you forgot to mention?  

He should remember that how you say something is as important as what you are saying.

 

[Hamann]

No, i mentioned everything you guys needed to know. If you read my story again, he didn't raise his voice until the time that I asked him that I wanted to see the projector. No offense, but if you doubt my story and favor this guy, I honestly don't really care. What matters to me is that I told everybody my story, and in the first place I know I'm not the very first person to encounter this kind of experience with this guy. I'd understand if you would doubt my story IF he had a good reputation or if no one ever had a bad experience with him for no reason at all.

What you mentioned is what I'm wondering about too. I know very well that I didn't do anything that would provoke him at the slightest, and thats what took me by surprise.

Oh and yes, I know that his shop is quite small, but what was I supposed to do just stand there at the small corner and wait for him to finish? I was already standing there for a couple of minutes that's why I decided to look at his CD's instead. As I passed in between the speaker and the customer I excused myself and I'm quite sure that was sufficient-certainly more courteous than your friend who never even greeted me that whole time I was there.

And you know what? Even if I did provoke him, what kind of a person and shop owner is he to act the way he did?

[Hamann]

He should remember that how you say something is as important as what you are saying.

 

- When he was first answering my questions about LP's and the projector the tone of his voice was certainly very unwelcoming. That's why I quoted that because even though he wasn't saying anything offensive YET, the manner in which he said it was already irritating.

Need any more explaining?

[notaku]

Hey, Hamann:  Actually, I was quoting you not 'coz I "need any more explaining"-it was for your benefit, maybe your own words might help jog your memory.  -Nevertheless, you've proved how painstaking you are with every detail of your recollection, so I assume that whatever else that went on was insignificant from your point of view.

The audiophile circle is already quite small, and I believe that in this hobby, people are generally  well educated beings.

-Your words again; you've tried hard to give the impression that you mean what you say-so I'm going to hold you to your standards.

Oh and yes, I know that his shop is quite small, but what was I supposed to do just stand there at the small corner and wait for him to finish?

No.  You should have gone straight up to him and stated your business as soon as you entered his store.  If you were so insistent on getting his attention why didn't you do this simple step yourself in the first place?  The owner is a 60 year-old man-he's a senior citizen, for God's sake!-and you expect him to be the first to show courtesy, especially when he's obviously busy?-How old are you anyway?  In all your posts, 'mann, you never even considered this.  Never.  

No, i mentioned everything you guys needed to know.

No offense, 'mann, but didn't we "need to know" that you were using a cellphone while an audition was going on inside the store?  Shouldn't you have mentioned this detail-especially while you're asking us to join you in condemning the owner?  You were entertaining a call but shouldn't you-an audiophile-have known well enough to do it outside?  Didn't you notice them-I mean the owner and the other customer-turning down the music to accomodate you?  They did notice that you were a bit "agitated" by the call-you were talking too loud.

- At this point I could see what kind of a person this guy was,

Unfortunately, 'mann, that was exactly the same thing the owner was thinking.  He told me so.  That's why he sounded so "irritated" while you were talking to him.

-Still, that's no sane reason for why he "overreacted" like he did...but does that mean there's none?  

And you know what? Even if I did provoke him, what kind of a person and shop owner is he to act the way he did?

Sorry, 'mann, I'm not trying to turn the tables against you and if you really feel offended, no one has the right to convince you to think otherwise.

-But some details need telling.  Some details.  He's a lousy shop owner, that's his temper's fault-but not his ego's.

[Hamann]

Sure. You want some more details?

No I don't think going up straight to him was the right thing to do. He was, at that moment, talking to his customer so I decided to give him a few minutes to be able to turn his attention to me, or maybe just himself and tell me that he'll get back to me in a few minutes as ANY CIVILIZED SHOP OWNER WOULD.

I would NOT just go in asking questions right away and acting as if he wasn't talking to anybody. That would not be the right thing to do and I wouldn't be surprised if he acted the way he did if I did that.

I never considered this because it simply shouldn't be done out of etiquette.

Is this the kind of behaviour that you believe in?

Talking on my cellphone? I for in fact put it to vibra mode when before I entered his shop as I habitually do whenever someone is making an audition in an audio shop. What he probably doesn't know, and what I don't really need to explain, is that I just told the person who had called me that I would just call him back since I couldn't talk. Well I didn't know that a few seconds it took me to say that ruined his customer's audition. Besides, I'm quite sure they didn't even make out what I said because I even lowered my voice.

I guess that the best he could do. Blow up his side of the story and try to justify it by magnifying some details, which in the first place, doesn't justify anything.

And by sticking to your story, let's say that's what got him to go ballistic, well if it's just because of that, then there's something wrong with him. He's unfit to be managing his business.

So what if he's 60, or 70, or 80 years old? Courtesy is something learned, something that we carry on within ourselves. It doesn't matter what his age is or where he comes from. Basic courtesy and proper conduct is something that is expected at the least from a shop owner, or anyone.

How old am I? Well its quite obvious you're close to this guy, and he probably gave you an idea anyway. But in any case, all I can say is that I had better etiquette when I was six than that sixty year old.

His age DOES NOT allow him, in any way, to act like that or even use it as an excuse. If he can't properly address his customers then he shouldn't be in that business in the first place.

Sure you can tell me that you're asking me to explain myself for my own good, when it's quite obvious that you have been defending your friend from the very start, and trying to mask it with questions that sound unbiased won't work.

While we're on this topic, why don't YOU tell him to explain himself for EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER that has had a bad experience with him. Let's see what kind of stories and excuses he's going to come up with.

[levi]

Guys,

   I guess, we already have  shared our thoughts. Please continue your discussion in private and let us continue with our topic. Thank you

Levi

[Hamann]

Right. It shouldn't have started in the first place anyway.

[rtsy]

No.  You should have gone straight up to him and stated your business as soon as you entered his store.

Do you really think customers should make it a point to go straight to shop owners to state his/her business there?

Ceratec is in a mall where I'd wager that a good proportion of the shopping done is window shopping.

When I go to a store, I tend to try to take a good look around to see what they have that may interest me.  Shopping around is part of the fun of shopping.

[rtsy]

From your recollection of things, this is when the fireworks begin; what's so bewildering is that despite the above observations absolutely nothing you've mentioned before this point is any sane cause to provoke the explosive reaction you received

My take away from your post is that the Ceratec guy was provoked which in turn elicited his "overreaction."  Fair enough.

It'd be interesting for me to know what I did to "provoke" him when he gave me a please-don't-waste-my-time treatment when I went there with an officemate looking for an "analog sounding digital source" to which he responded coldly with "eh digital yan eh paanong magiging analog?"

I kept my patience by telling him about my shortlist of digital sources most of which included tube output stages/buffers (Heart, Audio Note, Ah!, etc.).  One of the models I had in mind Ceratec used to display, an AMC tube output CD player.  When I asked him about the AMC, he gave me a harsh "lampas isang taon na nabenta yun."

Still keeping my patience and hopeful that something productive will come out of this fast-coming-down-the-drain encounter, I asked him if the AMC can be ordered.  He gave me a flat no.  (A few weeks later, I saw the AMC distributor at Rene's who mentioned that he had lots of AMC still in stock.  In fairness, it wasn't clear if he had the AMC tube output CDP.)

At that point, I noticed his California Audio Labs CD player so I asked if it was being sold as it was on display.  Again, I got a cold no.

I wasn't asking Ceratec to order me a CD player they don't want to bother with.  I'm also not asking them to sell me their demo unit.  As a customer during these hard times, least I expect was courteous treatment.

I value the relationships I've built with dealers and I constantly seek to build the relationship further.  You guys can go ask:

1--Upscale and Audio Visual Driver* if I unreasonably raised my voice at them when an integrated amp and HT receiver, respectively, I bought from  them kept going back to their repair shop.

*Well, I did get mad at a lady in AVDI's repair center because she lied to me.  She told me for a month that they've ordered the spare parts and when they reached their deadline, it turns out they never ordered the part.  A friendly call to Wilfred and Stefan quickly fixed things--ask them how I talked to them under the patience-testing circumstances.

2--Melvyn Chua of DCM how I "confronted" him about the 6DJ8 Yugos I found in my brand new Musical Fidelity X-Cans v2 when all the reviews say it had JAN-Philips 6922.  We just had a laugh since he didn't know and he offered Antony Michaelson's email so I can personally ask Musical Fidelity.  (Turns out latter models shipped with Yugos).

Point is, I try hard to treat dealers nicely and I did give Ceratec the same treatment to the best of my abilities.  Yet whoever it was at Ceratec at that time simply refused to give any effort at starting a mutually beneficial relationship.

[SVS]

I too have had a bad experience with this person.

In my case there was nobody else around, and he was at his desk writing something. I was with my nephew, and when he say him he told me "hindi pwede mga kagaya nyan dito."

What did he think of my nephew? Some destructive brat? He didn't even give me the benefit of the doubt since I did tell him not to touch anything and just to sit down.

Since I was looking for a Susan Wong CD badly, I asked him anyway, and he told me "Sandali can't you see I'm doing something?"

Well *$&# you if my nephew wasn't there I surely would have done something to you. Now that I realize he's like that to everybody I wanna go back there and do something about it.

From reading the posts, I find no fault in Hamann with what happened to him. Even if he did use his cellphone, in no way did that give him the right to act like the brute that he is.

Notaku, wake up. A lot of people are visibly pissed at this guy and he had no right as a businessman and shop owner to do what he did. As was mentioned, you were obviously biased from the very start.

If you're not convinced yet take a look at the pinoydiophiles message board.

[Aylwin]

My two cents:

In fairness to Notaku, I don't think he's being particularly biased towards this Ceratec guy.  It's understandable that he's surprised by this incident (and others) considering his totally opposite experience compared to everyone else.

It appears that he's tried his best to get to the bottom of this while being impartial and objective.  Not easy, considering that he knows the Ceratec guy but not any of us.  Try to put yourselves in Notaku's shoes.

In the end though, he does admit that the Ceratec guy is a lousy shop owner.  And I guess that's a conclusion we can all agree on?

By the way, I don't know Notaku,  I've never been to Ceratec,  and I don't have any personal interest in this matter.  I'm just trying to bring a bit of objectivity to this whole issue.

For the record, I feel that there is absolutely no excuse for any salesperson to disrespect any customer.  Period.  I've elaborated my views already on this in another forum so I don't want to start again here.

Personally, I have no problems supporting rtsy, Hamann, SVS and other victims by boycotting Ceratec.  I would encourage others to do the same.

Notaku, since you know him, I'd encourage you to have a long chat with the Ceratec guy and inform him that his attitude will lose him alot of business.  He should know that word gets around and his type of behavior will not be tolerated.  If he is unable to change then he is not cut out to be a salesperson.  In which case, his business would be better off if he would hire a professional salesperson and not some girl/lady who knows nothing about hifi.  Spending a lot of money on a proper salesperson would still be cheaper than having no customers at all.

[notaku]

Notaku, wake up. A lot of people are visibly pissed at this guy and he had no right as a businessman and shop owner to do what he did. As was mentioned, you were obviously biased from the very start.

(You see?-Sorry, H, 1 last time...)

Obviously!

-'Coz, as 'pao's mentioned, my experience was absolutely different from every other poster's here!

Have you people seen the Jodie Foster movie "Contact"?

I feel like someone who's witnessed a miracle:  Something good happened to me-yet I have to defend that against everybody else who're whining that the opposite happened to them!

Hey, I'm the one who's managed to get good treatment-yet I'm the one who's supposed to "wake up"?

-I can still go there, just sit on their couch and completely waste their time for hours-yet they don't mind a bit...

-should I be doing anything different?  Am I doing something wrong?

Hey!