Topic: Plasma vs LCD ?

[barrister]

To say that LCD is "crappy" is a bit unfair.  LCD on hi def is pretty good too.  I've seen the new Aquos models in showrooms and they're quite impressive.

But it just goes to show you how Sony's trash talk can inspire some extremely hostile reactions.

[gearhead]

To say that LCD is "crappy" is a bit unfair. 

to be fair, i don't think he called lcd's as crappy in general. what he meant was a large no. of LCD buyers bought either the smaller panels or those cheap generic china-branded ones. katulad dito, for about 50-60k you can have a choice between the toshiba/sony/samsung 32"ers, or you can also fall for one of those generic ones - promac/skyworth/sansui/changhong, etc if you don't know any better.

[barrister]

Oo nga naman... you're right.   

[Clondalkin]

to be fair, i don't think he called lcd's as crappy in general. what he meant was a large no. of LCD buyers bought either the smaller panels or those cheap generic china-branded ones. katulad dito, for about 50-60k you can have a choice between the toshiba/sony/samsung 32"ers, or you can also fall for one of those generic ones - promac/skyworth/sansui/changhong, etc if you don't know any better.

Japan is definitely an exception where those with money and have eye for detail generally prefer the high end LCDs made by Sharp, Sony and Toshiba over similarly sized Plasmas.   There is no question that "Full HD Panel" sells well in Japan where "finer details" and "minimum viewing distance" are such big deals (so well that Sharp is now selling full HD 32V Aquos meant for those with viewing distance of 1m or less and of course for PC application).  Moreover, cheaper brands from China and Taiwan are virtually non-existent in the Japanese market.   Even the giant Samsung cannot compete using their own brand, but their tie-up with Sony is proving to be a success.  During the last year alone, big LCD panel sales slashed more than 30% of the Plasma share according to Japan's BCN, and analysts are predicting that it should become a 50-50 share in the large panel market within the next 1-2 years (in Japan).  A recent Japanese business program shown on TV reported that last December 2006, nearly 9 out 10 flat panels sold in Japan were LCDs (all sizes considered).  While the biggest consumer electronics company in the world is still raking record profits in their plasma division, the rest of the major plasma makers seem to be losing a lot.    Good thing for Plasma, the Japanese population is only about 1/3 that of US and that of Western European nations where viewing rooms tend to be relatively dimmer and more spacious compared to Japan, ideal conditions for Plasma viewing.

[Mouldingo]

"What this all tells me is budget shoppers are buying small, cheap LCDs in droves but those with money to spend and an eye for detail still strongly favour plasma."

Love that quote...

[Alfie]

"What this all tells me is budget shoppers are buying small, cheap LCDs in droves but those with money to spend and an eye for detail still strongly favour plasma."

 

Detail but with GLARE 

The mere fact that Glare has been successfully eliminated by LCD will mean a lot to consummers who will truly appreciate this unrecognized value of the LCD.

90% of the time, one will watch will the lights on and no matter what; a small annoying distracting glare will appear on the screen.

And, if your'e a cinephile, who often watch his videos in the dark, well......your'e pretty young to be able to withstand eye strain after 2 hours.

Right now, the only advantage of the PDP over the LCD is that they have dominated the 40" up Vscreen.

BTW.......how about the grid marks...ah...yeh...DETAIL

[barrister]

Right now, the only advantage of the PDP over the LCD is that they have dominated the 40" up Vscreen.

And I don't think plasma will be dominating the 40"+ screen size for long.  I expect LCD to eat into the 40"+ market in the coming years --- and it's going to happen very quickly.  We will soon be seeing LCDs from the smallest cellphone to the largest home theater.

[jvm]

 

Detail but with GLARE 

The mere fact that Glare has been successfully eliminated by LCD will mean a lot to consummers who will truly appreciate this unrecognized value of the LCD

90% of the time, one will watch will the lights on and no matter what; a small annoying distracting glare will appear on the screen.

And, if your'e a cinephile, who often watch his videos in the dark, well......your'e pretty young to be able to withstand eye strain after 2 hours.

Glare will only happen if you have a light source directly in front of the display. Maybe it's more of the reflection that you're reffering to.

Right now, the only advantage of the PDP over the LCD is that they have dominated the 40" up Vscreen.

But why do they dominate the 40" up? Is it only due to size?

BTW.......how about the grid marks...ah...yeh...DETAIL

The grid lines are only visible if you look at it very very close and when it is OFF. I don't think you'll watch any display very very close or watch an OFF display . Even LCD's have grids if you look very very close at them.

[Clondalkin]

Glare will only happen if you have a light source directly in front of the display. Maybe it's more of the reflection that you're reffering to.

But why do they dominate the 40" up? Is it only due to size?

The grid lines are only visible if you look at it very very close and when it is OFF. I don't think you'll watch any display very very close or watch an OFF display . Even LCD's have grids if you look very very close at them.

Plasma has glossy surface so the area of the viewer would have to be pretty dark in order to minimize if not eliminate reflection..or, just watch far enough.

Problem with middle aged men like me, eyestrain becomes an issue when watching in dimmed environment.

Outside Japan especially in the Western world,  Plasmas dominate in large sized panels because of PRICE, viewing conditions and the sizes of the living rooms, family rooms or dens.   In Japan, LCD dominates despite the premium price because of limited spaces and relatively brighter lighting conditions everywhere in the house (makers give a lot of emphasis on the minimum viewing distance - less than 1m for full HD 32V, 1.4 meters for full HD 37V, 1.7 meters for 46V, 2 meters for 52V, 2.4 meters for 65V, etc. - and these guidelines seem to sell well).

Plasmas may have mesh grid look, but LCDs have mosquitoes and blocks...he he he.    Top tier makers for both camps have certainly reduced these problems though.

BTW Bros, I am very neutral on this.  If I have the space and the dough, I would not hesitate to have both a Panasonic Viera 50V PZ series plasma (full HD) and a Sharp Aquos 52V RX series.   Nothing beats those two makes and models right now.  However based on maker's recommendation, my house and viewing conditions can accomodate only one 46V (but I can stretch it to 50V if I sit in the dining area while looking at the living room - he he he), and 2 years ago, my budget could only afford a 37V LCD.


   

[barrister]

Problem with middle aged men like me, eyestrain becomes an issue when watching in dimmed environment.

Bias lighting behind the panel reduces eye strain. 

The best is Ideal-Lume by CinemaQuest:



http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/ideal-lume-lighting-5-2004.html

[Clondalkin]

Bias lighting behind the panel reduces eye strain. 

The best is Ideal-Lume by CinemaQuest:

Been doing that for the past 4 years.  27 years of heavy computer usage/gaming coupled with excessive movie watching have taken their toll.

[barrister]

There really is no such thing as "future proof".

1080p?  Ang baba naman ng resolution  ...   Wala yan sa lolo ko ...

Sharp already has a prototype 64" LCD with a native resolution of approx. 4000 x 2000 (8.8 megapixels)!




Sharp ultra-definition: Even higher definition
Firday 16 March 2007

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029474,49288581,00.htm



=============================================================




The latest revision of David Katzmaier's Plasma vs LCD article, dated 13 March 2007:

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5108443-2.html?tag=

Katzmaier concludes that the Plasma's picture is still better, but LCD will continue to be more popular.

[jvm]

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd.html

[pchin]

That's a very old article. The finding during those days may not reflect today's actual & much improved tech for both LCD & Plasma

[gearhead]

i was just at western marketing yesterday. they have both a 42" philips lcd and 42" plasma side by side showing the same content. well, don't know if it's just a personal preference, but i think i like the lcd picture better. it is noticeably sharper, brighter and more vivid. i have no chance to tweak the units but as displayed, di rin papahuli yung blacks nung lcd. i'm not sure though if the plasma panel is still SD or HD capable already.

[taggart]

bro,

pareho bang philips?  if the shop is brightly lit, the lcd will look better.  i saw a 42" philips lcd and i also like what i see.  same impressions, vivid colors and sharp.

btw i was able to see how a samsung 32" lcd handles analog broadcast(destiny).  it's not as bad as i first thought, pics are acceptable.  no ghosting at all.  very slight artifacting lang and that's only seen with the logo. 

 

[MAtZTER]

If you watch LCD in the dark, masakit sa mata. I tried but couldnt take it. 

[pchin]

Same thing happen to me though I'm only using 3LCD projection TV. Can't watch it completely in the dark.

So I can well imagine for LCD..twice the quality & twice the "sakit mata" condition 

[gearhead]

bro,
pareho bang philips?  if the shop is brightly lit, the lcd will look better.  i saw a 42" philips lcd and i also like what i see.  same impressions, vivid colors and sharp.

yes, both are philips branded panels. tingin ko, almost the same lang ang brightness/contrast level nung dalawa... although mukhang mas elevated ang black level nung sa plasma. kaya rin siguro mas nag-stand out yung sharpness nung sa lcd.

Same thing happen to me though I'm only using 3LCD projection TV. Can't watch it completely in the dark.

So I can well imagine for LCD..twice the quality & twice the "sakit mata" condition 

i usually watch with some ambient light naman, so if it would only be my problem if i go with lcd (been tempted with the 69.9k MAG 42" lcd posted by tediber), it's a problem easily solved. i might even install some bias light sa likod to ease up on the eyestrain.

[barrister]

i was just at western marketing yesterday. they have both a 42" philips lcd and 42" plasma side by side showing the same content. well, don't know if it's just a personal preference, but i think i like the lcd picture better. it is noticeably sharper, brighter and more vivid. i have no chance to tweak the units but as displayed, di rin papahuli yung blacks nung lcd. i'm not sure though if the plasma panel is still SD or HD capable already.

I've also seen a side-by-side showroom demo with same program material on 42" Philips plasma and LCD panels, at Abensons Sta Lucia East Mall. 

Which is better? 

It's not just personal preference --- the LCD really was way, way better in all aspects.  Sure, a bright viewing environment is an unfair advantage for the LCD, but with the PQ difference I saw in these 2 units, I seriously doubt if even a dark room can improve that plasma's appalling performance to acceptable levels.

Is LCD better than plasma? 

Hell, no.  It's just that this particular plasma was much worse than this particular LCD.
   

[taggart]

matzer & pchin,

that's a valid problem regarding viewing these panels in darkness.  so for home theatre ambience, lcd won't cut it?  hope the lcd manufacturers are figuring out how to fix this issue.  maybe a night mode or something.


barrister,

you may be right there.  panasonics and pioneers are still the benchmarks of the plasma world.

[pchin]

taggart, re dark viewing gearhead has made some valid suggestion which could solve those mentioned problems, i.e. adding some ambient light to prevent eyestrain. Maybe installin gthose DD or DTS light logo will do the trick.

[carl2k]

mga sir ang plasma po ay malakas sa kuryente 400watts
ang lcd po ay nasa 250 to 290 base on sony LCD

durability mahina ang plasma at disposable ang panel

ang lcd po panel lang po ang pinapalitan tapos good as new na ulit
ang presyo ng panel ng lcd is more or less 15k

mostly gumagamit ng plasma mga commercial stblishment kc nga po disposable
pag nasira tapon na, un lang po sir

[taggart]

taggart, re dark viewing gearhead has made some valid suggestion which could solve those mentioned problems, i.e. adding some ambient light to prevent eyestrain. Maybe installin gthose DD or DTS light logo will do the trick.

ah ok i thought that would detract from the home theatre ambience kasi me ilaw sa gilid di tulad sa movie theatre although that's a good solution given by gearhead.  sana me nightmode sa future para no need for ambient light.


carl2k,

power consumption between the two are almost the same nowadays although lamang parin lcd.  400w is way old generation already.  IIRC a panasonic plasma consumes around 270w and that's maximum consumption.  dark scenes etc. mas mababa pa.

regarding durability it's overblown regarding plasma's weakness IMHO.  sa transportation lang kelangan mag-ingat.  sa regular use, wala naman issue sa durability sakin. 

yes lcds have the upper hand in long term maintenance although in 18 or 20 years time(ave. life ng plasma), you'll be itching for an upgrade anyway if the upgrade bug doesn't get you before then.

yung sa commercial establishments naman i have to disagree.  they need big screens to advertise their wares and current lcds are still more expensive than plasma at the sizes they need(42in. and above) kaya plasma pinili nila.  60,000hrs lifespan is hardly disposable.

just my 2cents worth.

   

[dB10]

ang lcd po panel lang po ang pinapalitan tapos good as new na ulit
ang presyo ng panel ng lcd is more or less 15k

you might be referring to projector lcd bulbs...

for flat panel lcd bulbs i thought that they were easily replaceable too.  i found out the hard way before knowing that lcd panel costs...almost the same price of the new tv!

when they say panel it means almost everything inside your tv except for the shell...i hope the chief technician of h.......i was wrong when he explained this to me...but chances are 

for other boards inside they are easily replaceable locally when parts are available, the backlight/panel its a different story.

if a few or some of your backlight bulbs needs repalcement they have to feed your whole panel into the computer/robotic line to have them installed, they cant be done manually, and guess where the factory is...for sure its not here and that's part of what you pay for, handling and shipping, which im sure racks up your cost to more than Php 15t

its just a marketing talk when they say the bulbs are replaceable without telling us the whole truth about it.
so if you panel goes kaput, better have the mullah to keep the movies playing..God i wish that tech is wrong!

[Clondalkin]

matzer & pchin,

that's a valid problem regarding viewing these panels in darkness.  so for home theatre ambience, lcd won't cut it?  hope the lcd manufacturers are figuring out how to fix this issue.  maybe a night mode or something.

I thought intelligent (room) illumination sensor (automatic dimmer) is a standard feature of LCD HDTVs.   Some LCDs don't have that feature yet???  Well, you can manually decrease the brightness and contrast settings depending on room illumination.   

HT ambience is rather subjective but certainly not as bright as 1000 lux stores.   When I completed my first HT set-up in the late nineties, I could stand watching in total darkness, but since 4 years back, I started to use bias lighting and keep some lampshades on at the sides not only to reduce eyestrain and headache but also to protect my family's health in general. 

[Clondalkin]

I am looking at the latest catalogues of Panasonic and Sharp and it is quite apparent that across the board, the power consumption of a Plasma is still significantly higher compared to an equivalent sized LCD.   Not surprising at all because both camps are taking energy conservation seriously, hence while one camp has successfully improved their power ratings, the other camp is actually achieving the same.

However according to Panasonic, they have reduced the power consumption of their newer models by at least 30% compared to their own previous models (of the same plasma panel resolution).  BUT, that does not apply to their latest full HD plasmas which are comparatively power hogs.

On the other hand, perhaps power consumption is the least of concerns for those who can afford to buy large-sized panels.

When commercial establishments, airports, museums, convention centers, etc. started using large panels (I dont remember how many years back but probably during the late 90s), plasma was the only practical solution at that time, and for most commercial applications, there is not much practical reason (yet) to change their existing facilities to LCDs right now, unless perhaps Sharp or Sony donate their large LCDs. 

 

[bachwitz]

A bit OT.

In terms of PQ only, which is better a decent 32" HD CRT TV  or a mid level 32" LCD?

Im just wondering if its already worth upgrading to LCD 

BTW, Im not into BR or HD-DVD (yet) he he.

TIA

[Alfie]

If you watch LCD in the dark, masakit sa mata. I tried but couldnt take it. 

Same thing happen to me though I'm only using 3LCD projection TV. Can't watch it completely in the dark.

So I can well imagine for LCD..twice the quality & twice the "sakit mata" condition

With 1080i YES ...you'll feel sleepy after the 1st hour.

However, as what Barrister had often suggested, watch your LCD setting within the movie mode, at max. 720p, or better, you can custom set it to your preference.
I prefer watching in the dark, and I find this setting a lot more satisfactory than my 480p FP DLP.

[jaytl]

mga sir ang plasma po ay malakas sa kuryente 400watts
ang lcd po ay nasa 250 to 290 base on sony LCD

durability mahina ang plasma at disposable ang panel

ang lcd po panel lang po ang pinapalitan tapos good as new na ulit
ang presyo ng panel ng lcd is more or less 15k

mostly gumagamit ng plasma mga commercial stblishment kc nga po disposable
pag nasira tapon na, un lang po sir

nasa 325watts na lang ang 42 inch plasma while a 42 inch lcd is around 275 so there's not much of a difference. and i dont think plasma panels are not that durable. plasma usually have a lifespan of 60000 hours. so if you average 8 hours use everyday, then it could last for the next 20 years. after that time, would you still consider retaining the unit? of course you would be buying the latest technology again.

simple lang ang rule when buying a flat panel tv. you want a size of 32 inch or smaller tv, go for lcd. for 42 inch and up, go for plasma. if you have lots of moolah and you will use the tv for gaming, then buy an lcd. lcds are not yet good in bigger tvs unless you get the really high-end ones.